Should "Charged Mists" be a baseline mechanic for Energy Management for the Class as a whole?

[Knighthonor.4061]

Something strikes me about Charged Mists. The way this works is the way I had originally thought the Energy Mechanics was going to work when the originally showed it off. But I was sadly mistaken.

 

Energy Management still is a problem with the Revenant class when you consider that the class has both Energy cost and Cool Downs and 4 of the 5 Weapon skills also have a Energy cost attached to them. Also lets not forget the passive Upkeep skills..

 

But thats besides the point here. My question for you all is this. Should "Charged Mists" be a baseline mechanic for Energy Management for the Class as a whole?

 

Swapping legends as a way to increase Energy seem like a nice baseline mechanic to go along with the passive regen of energy while keeping weapon skill's Energy cost in play.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

No, I personally don't think that Rev needs this baseline. It is very appropriate for a GM Invocation trait and I really enjoy the flexibility it brings. However, the 10 energy threshold is a bit too restrictive in my opinion. It would be a perfect trait if the threshold got raised to 20-25.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Charged mists could use a straight buff such as an increase to the threshold, but I can think of several builds that could become OP if it was baseline.

[DonArkanio.6419]

I don't think threshold should be increased beause Invocation is about energy management and if you do this properly, you gain 25 bonus energy. This trait is fair and good. + It's good as a trait, not a built-in mechanic.

[narcx.3570]

> @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> Swapping legends as a way to increase Energy seem like a nice baseline mechanic to go along with the passive regen of energy while keeping weapon skill's Energy cost in play.

 

It literally already is the baseline mechanic... You get 50 energy on legend swap.

 

If you want more than that, you should have to sacrifice damage traits to achieve it, because if it was baseline it would be goofy OP.

 

[Justine.6351]

> @"narcx.3570" said:

> > @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> > Swapping legends as a way to increase Energy seem like a nice baseline mechanic to go along with the passive regen of energy while keeping weapon skill's Energy cost in play.

>

> It literally already is the baseline mechanic... You get 50 energy on legend swap.

>

 

Rofl ;-)

 

 

[Ertrak.9506]

> @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> No, I personally don't think that Rev needs this baseline. It is very appropriate for a GM Invocation trait and I really enjoy the flexibility it brings. However, the 10 energy threshold is a bit too restrictive in my opinion. It would be a perfect trait if the threshold got raised to 20-25.

 

15. I think 15 would be fine imho.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

> @"Ertrak.9506" said:

> > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > No, I personally don't think that Rev needs this baseline. It is very appropriate for a GM Invocation trait and I really enjoy the flexibility it brings. However, the 10 energy threshold is a bit too restrictive in my opinion. It would be a perfect trait if the threshold got raised to 20-25.

>

> 15. I think 15 would be fine imho.

 

I think 15 would be a pretty good spot. 25 perhaps would be too easy. I don't have an issue when switching out of Ventari because I can use the elite, but it would still make a big difference for other legends. It is kinda fun playing the energy mini game to time things right so I can maximize it when swapping.

[Knighthonor.4061]

Here my thing, on some builds, I dont have enough energy and legend swapping may not fit my role. For instances, I been trying out my new support build. I blow through energy with Tablet, but I dont have an off legend that provides a similar role to switch legends to and continue my role until swap is off cooldown. thats the problem with the Legend swap concept being used as the default Energy management system. It reset energy to 50 by default, and none of the legends really compliment each other in any way, which means you have to completely switch roles when changing legends, and unfortunately if geared towards healing, that usually means I lack stats for other forms of combat roles that fit other legends. Having a way to at least gain energy when I swap instead of just a reset to 50 would at least make up for this limitation. otherwise I have no real legend to compliment my role which leaves my team in a vulnerable position when I do swap, but all I get out of it is resetting my energy back to 50 for it to quickly run out again and limiting my usage of abilities I do have.

[Justine.6351]

> @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> Here my thing, on some builds, I dont have enough energy and legend swapping may not fit my role. For instances, I been trying out my new support build. I blow through energy with Tablet, but I dont have an off legend that provides a similar role to switch legends to and continue my role until swap is off cooldown. thats the problem with the Legend swap concept being used as the default Energy management system. It reset energy to 50 by default, and none of the legends really compliment each other in any way, which means you have to completely switch roles when changing legends, and unfortunately if geared towards healing, that usually means I lack stats for other forms of combat roles that fit other legends. Having a way to at least gain energy when I swap instead of just a reset to 50 would at least make up for this limitation. otherwise I have no real legend to compliment my role which leaves my team in a vulnerable position when I do swap, but all I get out of it is resetting my energy back to 50 for it to quickly run out again and limiting my usage of abilities I do have.

 

Maybe you just need more practice playing your new build? Not sure how giving you more energy on legend swap will help if you don't want to legend swap.

[otto.5684]

It is not useful for power builds and require you to be under 10 energy. This trait really only works with condi renegade.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> It is not useful for power builds and require you to be under 10 energy. This trait really only works with condi renegade.

 

It works well as a healer too. Switching out of Ventari, you can almost always guarantee yourself the proc since you have the elite to blow your energy. Swapping from other legends is definitely an "art," but it's not as bad as you'd think. With Glint the energy cost of the elite facet is really helpful because it'll drain you pretty quickly. Upkeeps in general can actually work in your favor since it'll slow down the recovery rate, but this is of course situational and can be difficult to use. I usually slot it when I play healer (unless running Jalis) because I find the extra energy to be extremely useful, regardless of legend. Spirit Boon is actually a pretty solid trait when running support, too.

 

As far as your point, @"Knighthonor.4061", I do understand where you're coming from. Oftentimes I have felt this way too with Ventari...like it would be nice if there was a way to gain energy without swapping legends, and instead putting your legend swap on a larger cooldown. However, such an implementation would probably have too many unintended negative consequences. To an extent though, the issue you explained is what other support classes have to deal with. Druid has a 10-15s cooldown on Avatar, which is basically where all of Druid's healing comes from. Firebrand has its Tome of Resolve. Obviously there can be healing done outside of these "forms," but it is more restrictive, similarly to a Ventari Rev. Tempest and Scrapper don't necessarily follow this, but with Tempest you are also running a pretty restrictive kit if you are camping water and you are also having to deal with cooldowns, and are heavily punished with a big CD if you swap out of water after an overload, for example. Perhaps this is not a well-designed mechanic, but it is not unique to Rev.

 

Rev has the option of Kalla for healing (but let's be real this only works in PvE), Jalis for some solid group utility (stab/dmg reduction), Mallyx for some condition management and boonstripping, and Herald for some boons. The other legends do have more niche purposes for support, but it does help supplement the lack of healing. There are even sometimes moments when I feel like I can support better while outside of Ventari, but that is perhaps due more to the tablet mechanic itself. I think that ANet was trying to allow for more healing-specific support in Glint with the Herald rework, but it still needs some more polish. There are things that they could do to make Herald a more solid support legend, such as implementing a trait that changes the consume skills to be more supportive (like Elemental Blast instead cleansing conditions and healing allies, and Burst of Strength increasing outgoing healing of nearby allies, etc.).

 

I do see your point, but I don't think baseline Charged Mists would be a good solution. It is a solid trait and deserving of a GM spot. Having it implemented baseline would, as others have said, create way OP builds.

 

[Aigleborgne.2981]

I never understood why they put energy threshold.

It's a grandmaster trait with a powerful effect but with such a ridiculous threshold...

It's hard to always check your energy before switching and sometimes you have to switch for condi clear our stunbreak. All in all, I regularly miss the bonus and then, it' s like playing without grandmaster.

This is why I am more inclined to choose others traits.

 

 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> It is not useful for power builds and require you to be under 10 energy. This trait really only works with condi renegade.

 

The current highest dps power herald uses Charged Mists with a few pieces of Assassins Gear. It’s not on Snowcrows tho, so you wouldn’t find it there. Majestic Noodle posted it on his channel on YouTube

 

Charged Mists works well with support builds as well

[Caeledh.5437]

> @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> Swapping legends as a way to increase Energy seem like a nice baseline mechanic to go along with the passive regen of energy while keeping weapon skill's Energy cost in play.

 

Fair enough if you enjoy that but not all of us like to manically swap weapons (for other professions) in slavery to taking maximum advantage of cooldowns or manically swap legends to take maximum advantage of energy.

 

Personally I'd prefer the exact opposite of what you suggested. The option - possibly via a trait - to change the energy mechanic, to maintain your current energy level when you swap legends. With slightly improved energy regen to compensate. That would be a HUGE improvement to revenant for my tastes.

[XxsdgxX.8109]

That would break some many things, imagine legend swapping to Shiro and then using Riposting Shadows 3 times in a row with normal dodges in between from the free endurance gain.

 

No

[NaiveBayes.2587]

I do not understand why so many people complain about energy management. Energy management is supposed to be something you have to think about when playing the profession as it is a limiting factor by design, it was not intended to be there just for aesthetic purposes. If me or my build does not manage my energy well enough - it is not the profession mechanic's fault therefore I do not think it requires a rework like this.

[Knighthonor.4061]

> @"NaiveBayes.2587" said:

> I do not understand why so many people complain about energy management. Energy management is supposed to be something you have to think about when playing the profession as it is a limiting factor by design, it was not intended to be there just for aesthetic purposes. If me or my build does not manage my energy well enough - it is not the profession mechanic's fault therefore I do not think it requires a rework like this.

 

Here the thing. What is the boarder point between something being a challenge simply because of a disadvantage, vs something just being out right bad enough to complain.

 

This is like if Tom Brady went to the current Browns, and complained about the team being bad and limiting his progress, but then people like yourself say why you complaining, the Browns are meant to be like this which only skilled QB can handle...

So does Tom have a right to complain or should he just be accepting of the team having a bad set up design?

 

Come on now. The energy system is flawed. Anet recently reduced upkeep cost already after years of no improvement.

 

Most people are against the current alliteration of the energy system.

 

Yes It make speaks homage to the old Guild Wars game mechanic of the same name, but it's nothing like the old Energy system from that game other than in name. That's why I don't even look at GW1 Energy as a factor here. It was a thing that worked in that game, but Revenants' energy does not here. Taking on a disadvantage for sake of it with no actual benefit ( since we have both Energy and Cooldowns on skills btw), it's just a flawed system that wasn't well designed before it was rushed out the door with HoT.

 

Revenant was designed in a way that none of the legends really synergize with each other yet the only way to get enery back is to wait (which in most cases is a huge limit in a fast pace game like this) or to legend swap which totally changes your role and in some cases your gear role may not fit the legend role.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

> @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> > @"NaiveBayes.2587" said:

> Here the thing. What is the boarder point between something being a challenge simply because of a disadvantage, vs something just being out right bad enough to complain.

 

The border point for revenant is skill, honestly. Few long term, skilled revs complain about the mechanic specifically and are more concerned with the balance aspects in terms of numbers/effects of skills

 

> Most people are against the current alliteration of the energy system.

 

You don’t have solid evidence for this claim. Your own poll even indicates otherwise. If needing more energy was really something everyone/most people wanted then you’d see more people voting yes to this poll

 

> Revenant was designed in a way that none of the legends really synergize with each other yet the only way to get enery back is to wait (which in most cases is a huge limit in a fast pace game like this) or to legend swap which totally changes your role and in some cases your gear role may not fit the legend role.

 

I don’t agree with this in general, though I do think certain legends don’t synergize particularly well with each other (mostly just Ventari combinations). There are certainly synergies between jalis/Glint/shiro/Mallyx. Ventari synergizes well with Kalla and to some extent Glint. Kalla has synergy with Mallyx (and Ventari we mentioned) and to some extent shiro/jalis.

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

>

> The border point for revenant is skill, honestly. Few long term, skilled revs complain about the mechanic specifically and are more concerned with the balance aspects in terms of numbers/effects of skills

>

>

> You don’t have solid evidence for this claim. Your own poll even indicates otherwise. If needing more energy was really something everyone/most people wanted then you’d see more people voting yes to this poll

>

>

> I don’t agree with this in general, though I do think certain legends don’t synergize particularly well with each other (mostly just Ventari combinations). There are certainly synergies between jalis/Glint/shiro/Mallyx. Ventari synergizes well with Kalla and to some extent Glint. Kalla has synergy with Mallyx (and Ventari we mentioned) and to some extent shiro/jalis.

 

A. Don't confuse acclimation with good design, nor should you confuse a skill gap as an indicator of such. Rev's energy system is more or less identical to Thief's Initiative system, but is incredibly awkward by comparison due to how quickly it chokes out with no recourse. This is a failure of implementation precisely because a Rev can shut itself down with the use of one skill's energy cost; and the supposed compensation for this, and the only reason Rev even functions competitively, are its skill being ridiculously powerful IF they land. The whole class's MO is based on high stakes gambles, and much easier to force its hand due to how skills that act as "responses" to enemy actions are narrow in scope, and high cost. Rev's poor diversity in PvP serves as a reminder of this problem, as its the only class that suffers from a subconscious design doctrine of Trinity exclusion in everything that it is.

 

B. Energy management IS a problem, but the reason people are voting "no" is because Charged Mists is not the solution. The current state of Rev rests on the fact that the recently lowered energy cost of utilities are finally down to the point where the contention isn't preventing more then 1 skill to be used in an emergency..... thats managed to get Rev as a whole class into a passable state. But that effectively proved the point people have been making for years- that Rev's skill chains were too expensive to properly capitalize on small windows of opportunity, in spite of the power of those skills being directly or indirectly increased or decreased over the years to give their use a proper pay off. Look how strong Sw/Sw had to be made to make up for lack of utility that was giving Staff such a huge edge in general combat.

 

C. Those synerygies are accidental more then intentional. It was obvious after Herald had a chance to make the rounds that Rev is designed around the idea of having an Elite Spec, a choice of legend as primary, their intended weapon set, and gear stats focused around it. Shrio is focused on Crit damage, Jalis on Bunker builds, Mayllax on counter tactics (its loaded with CCs, corruptions, and pressure damage), Ventari for Raid Healing, and Glint as Boon Bot. Glint was unique in that its skills being purely boon focused, and able to maintain 100% up time without Boon duration bonuses, that alleviated the need for matching gear stats. Thats why its still seen as the most flexible Legend, and compatible with other legend choices. Kalla is further proof that this was the intent, as the espec can function without needing the legend or condi stats in of itself. If it isn't obvious yet, the link between legend, weapon and gear stats should follow a structure since they were designed around it as a concept. But their implementations are inconsistently weighted in different areas of the build; and its in that inconsistency we get these opportunities for limited synergy between the legends. Remember that Rev wasn't meant to have weapon swap, yet so much of every Rev build hinges on which weapon it has.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

> @"starlinvf.1358" said:

> A. Don't confuse acclimation with good design, nor should you confuse a skill gap as an indicator of such. Rev's energy system is more or less identical to Thief's Initiative system, but is incredibly awkward by comparison due to how quickly it chokes out with no recourse. This is a failure of implementation precisely because a Rev can shut itself down with the use of one skill's energy cost; and the supposed compensation for this, and the only reason Rev even functions competitively, are its skill being ridiculously powerful IF they land. The whole class's MO is based on high stakes gambles, and much easier to force its hand due to how skills that act as "responses" to enemy actions are narrow in scope, and high cost. Rev's poor diversity in PvP serves as a reminder of this problem, as its the only class that suffers from a subconscious design doctrine of Trinity exclusion in everything that it is.

 

Thief also shares nearly all the "issues" you mention for Revenant. If a thief misuses their initiative they have little ability to setup stealth/do damage/get away unless their utilities are up. Revenant is much the same way and both require great awareness, attention to detail, and kiting to be effective. Also if Revenant wants to become energy starved it HAS TO use its utilities, as just using weapon skills alone isn't enough to starve a revenant of energy completely, so this is more a misuse of utilities issue than an energy issue.

 

The skill gap shows that the class is clearly working as intended. Revenant design is focused around smart energy/skill management much the same way thief is (thief also has a pretty big skill gap). As such both classes succeed with careful management of their resource pool, unlike many of the other classes in the game which are able to make several mistakes comparatively. The only "high stakes gamble" that exists in revenant is if you dump all of your energy into offense with no possible defense left for yourself, but smart revenant players don't do that. I'd say revenant is opportunistic and much more able to be reactive than focused on high damage gambles; you see a lot of top revenant players kiting/leaving defensive cooldowns/pressuring and choosing the right action to counter each of the opponent's chosen actions.

 

The poor diversity in pvp largely has to do with the failings of the design team to compensate condi rev after heavy nerfing revenant sustain in season 1 of pvp leagues (there were several builds for revenant back then with condi and power both being represented). And then of course the failed elite spec (in terms of wvw/pvp) due to a not so well thought out new weapon, legend, and traits all of which don't provide any adequate defense (which is what condi revenant needs). In terms of viability, condi rev needs an evade on Echoing Eruption and Unyielding Anguish, Pain Absorption as instant cast, an evade on Shortbow, Kalla reworked to be better in pvp/wvw, and some better traitlines in renegade. For healing/support, Ventari is a mess and was clearly never designed with high end pvp in mind. Note that all meta legends and weapon sets (sets as in both MH and OH together) for revenant ALL have an evade, block, invuln, or some combo of the three on them whereas ALL of the underperforming sets have NONE of these things. **So revenant build viability in pvp/wvw is more an issue with underperforming weapon sets, utility skills, and traitlines (not to mention bugs) than it is an issue with energy management or needing more energy**

 

> B. Energy management IS a problem, but the reason people are voting "no" is because Charged Mists is not the solution.

 

Energy management is a problem FOR YOU. I don't think you can claim objectivity in this regard. Perhaps you could claim "energy management is a problem for a majority portion of the revenant playerbase that visits the forums," but that's a total of MAYBE 500 users and is hardly representative of revenant players as a whole. Just on GW2 efficiency alone there are 150,000 revenant characters created. Even if half of that number are alt accounts/duplicate characters that's still 75,000 revenant characters and even if only 10% of that 75,000 enjoy and play their revenant frequently that's still about 7,500 revenant players, most of which don't contribute to the forums at all. This doesn't even account for the fact that GW2 efficiency is self reported so it's missing a huge chunk of the playerbase as well.

 

The majority of the people that come to the forums come here to complain about things that they feel are bad. Satisfied people are _usually_ not seeking out the forums at the same rate as dissatisfied users. So the vast majority of the opinions here are not only a minority of revenant players, but also skewed by perspective as well. If you have a bunch of people complaining about something in one space it can sure seem like their opinions are universal due to all of the negative criticism coming from _seemingly_ everyone, but when you look at it more objectively in terms of population it's incredibly hard to say what the "average" revenant opinion on the matter would be. It's also not possible to claim that the forums are representative of "informed revenants," "rev mains," or "above average revenants" as a lot of the high profile/high skill revenant players just don't post here.

 

>The current state of Rev rests on the fact that the recently lowered energy cost of utilities are finally down to the point where the contention isn't preventing more then 1 skill to be used in an emergency..... thats managed to get Rev as a whole class into a passable state. But that effectively proved the point people have been making for years- that Rev's skill chains were too expensive to properly capitalize on small windows of opportunity, in spite of the power of those skills being directly or indirectly increased or decreased over the years to give their use a proper pay off.

 

This goes back to my bolded point up above; Revenant issues/diversity is largely driven not through its costs but by the lack of effectiveness of weapons/traits/legends. Even if they continued to lower costs I don't think you'd see condi rev come back to being a strong competitive pick or power rev being played _consistently_ without Glint. Same with healing/tanking/support revenant. The issue _looks_ like energy cost at its core, but its more an issue of skill viability in and of itself. Echoing Eruption and Searing Fissure are both 5 energy cost skills with low cooldowns, but neither are particularly great competitively due to their functionality. Embrace the Darkness isn't particularly good anywhere anymore even with its reduced energy cost. Unyielding Anguish leaves the revenant a bit too open for how much damage it does now and Pain Absorption's cast time is killer. None of these costs are all that high. The fundamental issue with most of revenant competitively is lack of solid personal defenses in their non-power weapon sets and legends.

 

>Look how strong Sw/Sw had to be made to make up for lack of utility that was giving Staff such a huge edge in general combat.

 

? This comment confuses me. Staff has ALWAYS been taken because of its fantastic utility, not because of its general combat prowess. Sword has ALWAYS been the main damage weapon, even with Staff's SotM combo being incredibly strong back in the day (and still in wvw). No one (at least at a high level) has been using Staff as the general combat weapon, but as the defensive offhand for sword/x. At best Staff is equal to sword/x.

 

> C. Those synerygies are accidental more then intentional. It was obvious after Herald had a chance to make the rounds that Rev is designed around the idea of having an Elite Spec, a choice of legend as primary, their intended weapon set, and gear stats focused around it. Shrio is focused on Crit damage, Jalis on Bunker builds, Mayllax on counter tactics (its loaded with CCs, corruptions, and pressure damage), Ventari for Raid Healing, and Glint as Boon Bot. Glint was unique in that its skills being purely boon focused, and able to maintain 100% up time without Boon duration bonuses, that alleviated the need for matching gear stats. Thats why its still seen as the most flexible Legend, and compatible with other legend choices. Kalla is further proof that this was the intent, as the espec can function without needing the legend or condi stats in of itself. If it isn't obvious yet, the link between legend, weapon and gear stats should follow a structure since they were designed around it as a concept. But their implementations are inconsistently weighted in different areas of the build; and its in that inconsistency we get these opportunities for limited synergy between the legends. Remember that Rev wasn't meant to have weapon swap, yet so much of every Rev build hinges on which weapon it has.

 

Some of your legend characterizations aren't 100% accurate which makes it harder to see their synergies. For example, Shiro isn't really focused on Crit Damage, but more on In-Combat Mobility/Evasion/Damage Enhancement. Jalis is definitely bunker build oriented, but also focuses on team support and sustain damage (through vengeful hammers). Mallyx does have counter tactics (conditions specifically built in), but also has area control and mobility built in. And I think it's bad to see Glint just as a boon bot, because that's not really what she is at her core (at least not competitively) since she adds a lot of damage/CC/personal defense. She's more of a jack of all trades, which is why she synergizes so well with other legends.

 

I'm not saying the synergies are perfect, but they're better than people say. A lot of the inconsistencies are due to lacking effects of weapons/legends/traits when compared to the fantastic synergies of Glint/X, Shiro/x, Sword/x/x, or staff/x. Jalis is pretty borderline and "almost" there imo. It really goes back to "these weapons/legends have strong personal defenses/offenses" and the other legends don't.

[Caeledh.5437]

> @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> Thief also shares nearly all the "issues" you mention for Revenant. If a thief misuses their initiative they have little ability to setup stealth/do damage/get away unless their utilities are up.

 

Theoretically players have the freedom to spend initiative or energy wisely or not.

 

Revenant is very different from thief though.

 

Thief has no cooldowns on weapon abilities so the game doesn't promote weapon swapping to take maximum advantage of weapon cooldowns.

 

Revenant has cooldowns on weapon abilities. Revenant also has cooldowns on lots of utility skills and the game promotes swapping legends as much as possible to take advantage of the potential free 50 energy on legend swap.

 

Thieves have to manage energy + utility cooldowns (unless they use signets). Weapon swap cooldown is often not an issue.

 

Other professions have to manage weapon cooldowns + weapon / attunement cooldowns + utility cooldowns.

 

Revenants have to manage energy + weapon skill cooldowns + utility skill cooldowns + weapon swap cooldown + legend swap cooldown. It's convoluted. Some might focus on energy as the problem because revenants have to manage as many or more cooldowns as other professions and then have to worry about energy on top of that.