make staff a hybrid condi/utility weapon?

[WraithOfStealth.1624]

Yep, there isn't really a second condi weapon set for core. In PvE i'd assume you'd use MH sword, in PvP/WvW you use staff for utility. But if you're playing condi in PvE you really should be running Renegade. In PvP/WvW i think core with M/A + Staff is better than Renegade for condi, simply due to the traitline offering very little to condi builds compared to core traitlines.

 

Staff is pretty much a perfect weapon outside of mabey skill 2 (Really only that 3/4s cast time on the first attack.) . I very much doubt it would get hybridised across the board for an even power/condi split, but see point **2)** below for what i think could be a reasonable change.

 

Things Anet could potentially do, in order of most likely to happen;

 

**1)** No changes to current weapons whatsoever.

**2)** Anet decides to go the Trident route on all old weapons and introduces (Auto attack) condi application based on current legend. (Shiro:Vuln, Jalis:Weak, Mallyx:Torm, Glint:Burn etc.)

**3)** New core weapon with mid-to-long range condi application. (They did introduce a second underwater weapon due to rev having weapon swap now, so i guess it's at least possible.)

**4)** New e-spec brings long range weapon for condi application. (We have mid-range shortbow on renegade already, so this is highly unlikely)

 

For me the best solution would be a new core weapon(set), but one can only hope eh?

[Clownmug.8357]

I don't understand why people still run staff in condi builds. Personally I prefer mace/sword + sword/axe since there's lots of mobility and multiple ways to proc conditions. There's plenty of condi removal from Cleansing Channel + Pulsating Pestilence and staff#3 and #5 aren't really crucial for defense when you're running dire/trailblazer gear.

[WraithOfStealth.1624]

> @"Clownmug.8357" said:

> I don't understand why people still run staff in condi builds. Personally I prefer mace/sword + sword/axe since there's lots of mobility and multiple ways to proc conditions. There's plenty of condi removal from Cleansing Channel + Pulsating Pestilence and staff#3 and #5 aren't really crucial for defense when you're running dire/trailblazer gear.

 

It depends on your build and personal preference i guess, i have used mace/sword & sword/axe as well. For my build any damage from MH/OH sword is negligible, i get more reliable condi application through traits/gear than a precision strike or deathstrike. I don't use dire/trailblazer (Rather an Apothecary/Shaman mix) myself when playing condi in WvW. But as most classes can melt through >3k armor and >20k health pretty fast these days anyway, an extra block & evade doesn't hurt imo.

[Aeolus.3615]

@draxynnic.3719 we already have mace and shortbow for that :\ (imo it is fine as it is Anet is awfull at balance, it would actually kill the current damage or would be OP when on hybrid builds).

 

 

What kind of condis u think hammer should have??

Can u really imagine condi ticks on CoR????

 

 

@WraithOfStealth.1624

 

That's why u buy the expantion :) to have a another condi swap.

 

[Clownmug.8357]

> @"WraithOfStealth.1624" said:

> > @"Clownmug.8357" said:

> > I don't understand why people still run staff in condi builds. Personally I prefer mace/sword + sword/axe since there's lots of mobility and multiple ways to proc conditions. There's plenty of condi removal from Cleansing Channel + Pulsating Pestilence and staff#3 and #5 aren't really crucial for defense when you're running dire/trailblazer gear.

>

> It depends on your build and personal preference i guess, i have used mace/sword & sword/axe as well. For my build any damage from MH/OH sword is negligible, i get more reliable condi application through traits/gear than a precision strike or deathstrike. I don't use dire/trailblazer (Rather an Apothecary/Shaman mix) myself when playing condi in WvW. But as most classes can melt through >3k armor and >20k health pretty fast these days anyway, an extra block & evade doesn't hurt imo.

 

I feel like the sword skills with the right sigils and traits can actually be better for condi application than mace or axe. Even with the random auto targetting, for me Precision Strike feels a lot more reliable than mace#2 and #3 since they can't really hit moving targets. Deathstrike is an instant gap closer which can lead into a legend/weapon swap for more damage and can't be evaded like Frigid Blitz. Even Shackling Wave has use as a chance for multiple Rampant Vex procs within a split second and to immoblize someone in a Unyielding Anguish field.

[Dace.8173]

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> Venom Enhancement has a 10s internal cooldown. So as long as there's something inflicting Torment already - such as Rampant Vex in the staff's 4-hits-every-2.2-seconds autoattack chain - then adding chill to one of the autoattack chains isn't going to result in more poison application. Just an extra 1-3 Torment stacks, and that's if the chill was on the lowest-recharge attack.

>

> That's not insignificant, but it's not something to scream about either. It's not like Precision Strike landing three chills on a 5s cooldown, or Phase Smash with Abyssal Chill being almost the only way to get reliable condition application out of hammer due to the low autoattack rate. Honestly if chill was put on staff, the mere fact that staff had a snare at all would probably be more impactful than its interaction with traits, unless it was put on Surge of the Mists or something. (Kind of like how Icerazor's Ire was obviously made _not-chill_ to prevent it from being a big Torment generator with Abyssal Chill.)

>

> Now, I'm not saying that staff should be changed: it does its job, and its interaction with Rampant Vex is probably enough to make it work as a support option for condition-oriented builds as long as you don't regard it as your DPS set. But let's not exaggerate the impact that giving it chill would have.

 

Again, none of that changes my overall point, that adding condition damage changes the nature of the weapon in ways that would lead to a rebalance. I really don't care if we are discussing poison or chill or torment or burning or anything else. The specific condition applied isn't important to the point I was making. If you add condition damage you change the nature of the weapon and you open up new types of interactions and potential for damage output. The weapon as it currently stands is balanced on the traits it has. Changing those traits changes the weapon.

 

> @"WraithOfStealth.1624" said:

 

> **3)** New core weapon with mid-to-long range condi application. (They did introduce a second underwater weapon due to rev having weapon swap now, so i guess it's at least possible.)

 

Not really possible. The weapon was added because Revenant had weapon swap but didn't have a weapon to swap to underwater. Revenant has swapable weapons out of water.

 

> @"Clownmug.8357" said:

> I don't understand why people still run staff in condi builds. Personally I prefer mace/sword + sword/axe since there's lots of mobility and multiple ways to proc conditions. There's plenty of condi removal from Cleansing Channel + Pulsating Pestilence and staff#3 and #5 aren't really crucial for defense when you're running dire/trailblazer gear.

 

Yeah, I don't get that either. If you're doing Condi and you're not running Renegade then you really should be using sword so that you can keep some measure of pressure on a weapon swap. Unless you just *really* need to have a ranged weapon and thus go with the hammer.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Clownmug.8357" said:

> I don't understand why people still run staff in condi builds. Personally I prefer mace/sword + sword/axe since there's lots of mobility and multiple ways to proc conditions. There's plenty of condi removal from Cleansing Channel + Pulsating Pestilence and staff#3 and #5 aren't really crucial for defense when you're running dire/trailblazer gear.

 

I don't even get why there is a need for a SECOND weapon set to be run in a condi build. If a build is relying on swapping for trait benefits ... just swap to a duplicate set of the same weapons.

[Opopanax.1803]

They run staff because they want the utility and defense that it brings. Not a far reaching request.

[WraithOfStealth.1624]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

 

> I don't even get why there is a need for a SECOND weapon set to be run in a condi build. If a build is relying on swapping for trait benefits ... just swap to a duplicate set of the same weapons.

 

Strictly talking PvP/WvW roaming here, staff is used for utility and defence. Condi revenant is a very vulnerable build to play in today's meta, "no" stability, low mobility, melee based. (Also compare pressure output to builds like condi mirage or condi daredevil, it's pretty disheartening stuff tbh.) VS competent players staff allows you a bit of breathing room vs multi-hit / ranged attacks, while still being able to deal out pressure through Mallyx skills or gear/trait interactions.

[VixusIrine.9013]

I kinda wish they'd make the support aspect of the staff a bit better. Those healing orbs are extremely small and horrifically hard to see. Especially if you have your camera zoomed all the way out. They're practically invisible in bigger fights too.

[draxynnic.3719]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> @draxynnic.3719 we already have mace and shortbow for that :\ (imo it is fine as it is Anet is awfull at balance, it would actually kill the current damage or would be OP when on hybrid builds).

>

>

> What kind of condis u think hammer should have??

> Can u really imagine condi ticks on CoR????

 

Revenant doesn't have mace and shortbow. _Renegede_ does.

 

A weapon that is locked behind a specialisation doesn't fix the problem, because the problem is going to recur with every new specialisation that comes out. The problem still exists for core revenants and heralds, and will exist for any new elite specialisation that doesn't bring its own condition weapon.

 

As for which condis, some possibilities include:

 

1) Something like Trident, where each Hammer Bolt inflicts a condition based off the legend being used.

 

2) Coalescence of Ruin losing some direct damage in exchange for inflicting Bleeding stacks (a common trait for "smash the ground"-type attacks if you look at the Elementalist).

 

3) Confusion on Drop the Hammer (would need to last longer than the knockdown, of course!)

 

4) Making Hammer Bolt part of a chain which allows the hammer auto to attack more often than once every 1.25 seconds, allowing for better synergy with Rampant Vex.

 

My preference would probably be a mix of #2 and #4 or even just #2, but those are all possibilities.

 

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Clownmug.8357" said:

> > I don't understand why people still run staff in condi builds. Personally I prefer mace/sword + sword/axe since there's lots of mobility and multiple ways to proc conditions. There's plenty of condi removal from Cleansing Channel + Pulsating Pestilence and staff#3 and #5 aren't really crucial for defense when you're running dire/trailblazer gear.

>

> I don't even get why there is a need for a SECOND weapon set to be run in a condi build. If a build is relying on swapping for trait benefits ... just swap to a duplicate set of the same weapons.

 

Because revenant is a profession with weaponswap. While I know people do the 'duplicate set' trick to trigger traits and sigils, the primary idea behind weaponswapping is to have the versatility of having two sets. The design of weapons for such professions reflects this (the reason why revenant didn't work as a non-weaponswapping profession is largely because the revenant's weapons weren't designed accordingly: elementalist weapons, for instance, have a versatility that goes beyond just what comes out of attunement-swapping, while revenant sets are fairly specialised).

 

Every other profession with weaponswap apart from revenant has at least two sets that work regardless of whether they're running power or condition (guardian's relationship with condition damage is an interesting one as it mostly comes from Justice and utilities, but guardian does benefit from a number of weapons that can inflict multiple strikes quickly and thus maximise passive Justice procs). Mesmer, for instance, can carry staff and scepter/X for condition damage*, and sword and greatsword (and arguably the increasingly hybrid scepter) for power builds.

 

Revenant doesn't have this... likely because when it was originally designed, it wasn't a weaponswapping profession and didn't need to. None of the revenant's weaponsets apart from mace/axe have any damaging conditions without adding traits to the mix, while sword, being the least bad option, is the only one that really synergises well with those traits thanks to fast attacks for Rampant Vex and lots of chill through Precision Strike.

 

*I'm aware that condition mesmers in PvP environments often take sword/X regardless, for the defensive capabilities and because they can still get decent condition applications through shatters. However, mesmers who do this are doing so because they choose to, not because they're forced to through the lack of better alternatives, as condition revenants are.

[Buran.3796]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Clownmug.8357" said:

> > I don't understand why people still run staff in condi builds. Personally I prefer mace/sword + sword/axe since there's lots of mobility and multiple ways to proc conditions. There's plenty of condi removal from Cleansing Channel + Pulsating Pestilence and staff#3 and #5 aren't really crucial for defense when you're running dire/trailblazer gear.

>

> I don't even get why there is a need for a SECOND weapon set to be run in a condi build. If a build is relying on swapping for trait benefits ... just swap to a duplicate set of the same weapons.

 

I disagree with the proposal of turning staff or the hammer into a hybrid weapon. But is very clear why if you're using a core Revenant, a Herald or a Renegade with condition builds you need a second weapon set: all the condition weapons from Revenant and their specializations (including the aquatic ones) have one thing in common, the lack of defensive capabilities. So people using mace & axe or the short bow oftenly do pair them with the staff.

 

The staff itself is good, with excellent utility skills (outisde #2). The only problem is that when you swap to staff while running a condi build your dps falls to 0. Which is only a problem for raiders. But is the lack of defensive capabilities + poor mobility the reason behind condi Revenant builds are a failure in both WvW and PvP.

[Aeolus.3615]

@draxynnic.3719 i would rather have vulnerability on cor than useless bleeds, i dont play condi, nor hammer is set for condi builds that is ruining the weapon. if that is what u want, while vulnerability would help both players that play power, and condi, since damage and condition damage taken are increased by it.

 

But for that we already have sword, bleeds alone would not do a thing, even on a condi builds we have way better options, hammer is on good position as it is IMO.

Now if u want to add bleed or vulnerability to other weapon that's ok., maybe on UA , maybe bleed on sword, or staff 5 ?

 

**Rev's are amazing on WvW atm with alot of roles if u want, m8 be the unque class that isnt tied to one must do it meta.**

[Dace.8173]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Clownmug.8357" said:

> > I don't understand why people still run staff in condi builds. Personally I prefer mace/sword + sword/axe since there's lots of mobility and multiple ways to proc conditions. There's plenty of condi removal from Cleansing Channel + Pulsating Pestilence and staff#3 and #5 aren't really crucial for defense when you're running dire/trailblazer gear.

>

> I don't even get why there is a need for a SECOND weapon set to be run in a condi build. If a build is relying on swapping for trait benefits ... just swap to a duplicate set of the same weapons.

 

Yeah, I've always felt this way too.

 

> @"Opopanax.1803" said:

> They run staff because they want the utility and defense that it brings. Not a far reaching request.

 

If you are running it for defense then you really don't need it to maintain pressure with conditions. A defense weapon doesn't have to have the same traits as the main weapon. Thus, if you are using a defense weapon it should be able to fit into any kind of build easily. However, the staff would lose some of its defensive capabilities if it had conditions. I really don't think of Mesmer staff as a defensive weapon considering the number of offensive conditions it stacks on people. ArenaNet's history on such matters of balance makes this pretty clear. The last thing I want is Necromancer staff.

 

> @"WraithOfStealth.1624" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

>

> > I don't even get why there is a need for a SECOND weapon set to be run in a condi build. If a build is relying on swapping for trait benefits ... just swap to a duplicate set of the same weapons.

>

> Strictly talking PvP/WvW roaming here, staff is used for utility and defence. Condi revenant is a very vulnerable build to play in today's meta, "no" stability, low mobility, melee based. (Also compare pressure output to builds like condi mirage or condi daredevil, it's pretty disheartening stuff tbh.) VS competent players staff allows you a bit of breathing room vs multi-hit / ranged attacks, while still being able to deal out pressure through Mallyx skills or gear/trait interactions.

 

If you're doing PvP you have bigger issues than lacking a condi weapon swap. Also, it's worth saying again, comparing it to condi Mirage or condi Daredevil is really not a good comparison. Mirage is just a stronger condi Elite to start with and this goes well beyond its use of the staff. Its staff is meant to be a condi weapon and is stated accordingly. Revenant's is not. Daredevil staff is not a condi weapon but again Thief, in general, has stronger condi options that go beyond its use of a staff. Turning Revenant staff into a condi weapon, which would likely lead to sacrificing its defensive abilities, is not going to put you on the same level as either. Again this has more to do with synergy issues between Legends and your traits.

 

> @"VixusIrine.9013" said:

> I kinda wish they'd make the support aspect of the staff a bit better. Those healing orbs are extremely small and horrifically hard to see. Especially if you have your camera zoomed all the way out. They're practically invisible in bigger fights too.

 

This is likely a reasonable request that folks may be able to push ArenaNet into doing.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Buran.3796" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Clownmug.8357" said:

> > > I don't understand why people still run staff in condi builds. Personally I prefer mace/sword + sword/axe since there's lots of mobility and multiple ways to proc conditions. There's plenty of condi removal from Cleansing Channel + Pulsating Pestilence and staff#3 and #5 aren't really crucial for defense when you're running dire/trailblazer gear.

> >

> > I don't even get why there is a need for a SECOND weapon set to be run in a condi build. If a build is relying on swapping for trait benefits ... just swap to a duplicate set of the same weapons.

>

> I disagree with the proposal of turning staff or the hammer into a hybrid weapon. But is very clear why if you're using a core Revenant, a Herald or a Renegade with condition builds you need a second weapon set: all the condition weapons from Revenant and their specializations (including the aquatic ones) have one thing in common, the lack of defensive capabilities. So people using mace & axe or the short bow oftenly do pair them with the staff.

>

> The staff itself is good, with excellent utility skills (outisde #2). The only problem is that when you swap to staff while running a condi build your dps falls to 0. Which is only a problem for raiders. But is the lack of defensive capabilities + poor mobility the reason behind condi Revenant builds are a failure in both WvW and PvP.

 

Right but someone who decides to run a build because of conditions and not use the full toolset (Renegade in this case) is obviously going to run into difficulty with access to things given these restrictions. That makes sense to me. Not every specific build can give you everything you think you might need in a certain situation. I don't even buy the idea that you NEED a staff to supplement defensive/utility capability on a condi build. Sure, staff is great for that but it's not the only way to get those things.

[WraithOfStealth.1624]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> If you're doing PvP you have bigger issues than lacking a condi weapon swap. Also, it's worth saying again, comparing it to condi Mirage or condi Daredevil is really not a good comparison. Mirage is just a stronger condi Elite to start with and this goes well beyond its use of the staff. Its staff is meant to be a condi weapon and is stated accordingly. Revenant's is not. Daredevil staff is not a condi weapon but again Thief, in general, has stronger condi options that go beyond its use of a staff. Turning Revenant staff into a condi weapon, which would likely lead to sacrificing its defensive abilities, is not going to put you on the same level as either. Again this has more to do with synergy issues between Legends and your traits.

 

Well i only roam in WvW so i can't speak for PvP that well,

 

I'm not comparing rev staff to mirage/daredevil staff, i'm comparing condi pressure on a condi rev to mirage and daredevil. The reason i bring that up is to illustrate that condi revenant is a much more vulnerable build compared to such classes as it lacks both defence and strong pressure. So when people say they don't understand why you would take staff as your 2nd weaponset in a pvp/wvw condi revenant build i'm a bit confused. It is one of the best ways to add extra survivability to your build, paired with the fact that your Mallyx skills and gear/traits can compensate the lack of condi application on the staff itself.

 

As i mentioned on an earlier post i also don't want a fully or hybrid condi staff. But i also don't think adding 1 stack of chill on the 3rd AA hit or skill 2 for example would require the devs to substantially lower its support capabilities. Guess it was a misunderstanding of my post on your part.

 

 

[Opopanax.1803]

> @"WraithOfStealth.1624" said:

But i also don't think adding 1 stack of chill on the 3rd AA hit or skill 2 for example would require the devs to substantially lower its support capabilities. Guess it was a misunderstanding of my post on your part.

>

.......

This is the rub. Dace is fearful that any buff would mean a nerf to other staff skills, which we can all agree no one wants.

 

However, Anets history is not to buff a weapon skill then nerf a different one on the same weapon. A vast majority of the weapons are simply buffed, especially as of late.

 

It is understandable though fallacious to say that Anet would have to nerf some other part of staff in order to buff a non-exista t damage component.

 

 

[Dace.8173]

> @"WraithOfStealth.1624" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > If you're doing PvP you have bigger issues than lacking a condi weapon swap. Also, it's worth saying again, comparing it to condi Mirage or condi Daredevil is really not a good comparison. Mirage is just a stronger condi Elite to start with and this goes well beyond its use of the staff. Its staff is meant to be a condi weapon and is stated accordingly. Revenant's is not. Daredevil staff is not a condi weapon but again Thief, in general, has stronger condi options that go beyond its use of a staff. Turning Revenant staff into a condi weapon, which would likely lead to sacrificing its defensive abilities, is not going to put you on the same level as either. Again this has more to do with synergy issues between Legends and your traits.

>

> Well i only roam in WvW so i can't speak for PvP that well,

>

> I'm not comparing rev staff to mirage/daredevil staff, i'm comparing condi pressure on a condi rev to mirage and daredevil. The reason i bring that up is to illustrate that condi revenant is a much more vulnerable build compared to such classes as it lacks both defence and strong pressure. So when people say they don't understand why you would take staff as your 2nd weaponset in a pvp/wvw condi revenant build i'm a bit confused. It is one of the best ways to add extra survivability to your build, paired with the fact that your Mallyx skills and gear/traits can compensate the lack of condi application on the staff itself.

>

> As i mentioned on an earlier post i also don't want a fully or hybrid condi staff. But i also don't think adding 1 stack of chill on the 3rd AA hit or skill 2 for example would require the devs to substantially lower its support capabilities. Guess it was a misunderstanding of my post on your part.

>

>

 

Your post was understood. The issue isn't why you would take a staff period. The issue isn't even one of not understanding, though I can see how you didn't get that. The issue is that all things considered, weapon swapping for Revenant isn't going to make much difference in a condi build. If your condi build for Revenant depends on weapon swapping then you are already in trouble. Most of the problems for Revenant in the realm of condi builds is more about the traits and skills you have to work with and not being able to swap into another condi weapon. If that were the case then condi Renegade would be stronger than it currently is because you do have a weapon swap into a condi weapon. It could be restated as "I don't get why you think an additional condi weapon to swap into is going to make a difference when the problems are bigger than a lack of additional condition weapons." It's understood why you would take a staff if you are going to use it for its intended purpose. When used for its actual purpose the weapon is a great addition to any build.

 

As for comparing it to Thief and Mesmer, my statements still stand. We already know that Revenant doesn't have the same kind of pressure that Mesmer and Theif have. There really is no point in comparing the two because it's understood that Revenant can't compare. It's already understood that it lacks pressure. It's already understood that Mesmer and Theif outperform it. You're not illustrating a point, you're stating the obvious. We should worry about being able to add pressure like Mesmer and Theif after we get the other issues sorted out. While you say adding Chill is no big deal if you follow the history of buffs and nerfs you would see that if you take a solid weapon and then add something to it they are more than likely going to remove something else. As far as they are concerned the weapon is already balanced and serving its function. Additional functionality on things that already work as intended has a history of leading to nerfs and changes to counterbalance the additional functions it can now do. Revenant staff already does more physical damage than it's condi counterpart in Mesmer. Adding chill adds more damage to it and they would readjust it and other features so as to keep it at its current level. It fits their pattern.

[WraithOfStealth.1624]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> It's understood why you would take a staff if you are going to use it for its intended purpose. When used for its actual purpose the weapon is a great addition to any build.

 

Alright, we just agree on this then! That was really all i meant, mostly due to various people saying they don't understand using a 2nd weaponset/staff in a condi build. ;) This is just from my personal experience roaming as a condi revenant and what i think is effective or not.

 

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> While you say adding Chill is no big deal if you follow the history of buffs and nerfs you would see that if you take a solid weapon and then add something to it they are more than likely going to remove something else. As far as they are concerned the weapon is already balanced and serving its function. Additional functionality on things that already work as intended has a history of leading to nerfs and changes to counterbalance the additional functions it can now do. Revenant staff already does more physical damage than it's condi counterpart in Mesmer. Adding chill adds more damage to it and they would readjust it and other features so as to keep it at its current level. It fits their pattern.

 

Can't say my memory is good enough to remember every buff/nerf to most weapon skills, and researching all of them on the wiki is a bit more time than i'm willing to invest in this haha. As far as i know there isn't really a weapon on other classes that compares well to rev staff, but i'm going to agree with @"Opopanax.1803" that most of the changes in recent years to weapon skills are just straight up additions without any removal or significant nerfing of other skills' features on those weapons. Adding chill to rev staff would indeed add "more damage" if you're running abyssal chill in a condi build (No reason not to really.), but if you're playing condi any direct damage is fairly negligible to begin with.

 

So i'm content with leaving staff as it is right now, but once again highly doubt that adding one stack of chill>abyssal chill traited to torment on AA/Skill 2 warrants a decrease in the effectiveness of staff's other features.

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

 

[Buran.3796]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

 

> Right but someone who decides to run a build because of conditions and not use the full toolset (Renegade in this case) is obviously going to run into difficulty with access to things given these restrictions. That makes sense to me. Not every specific build can give you everything you think you might need in a certain situation. I don't even buy the idea that you NEED a staff to supplement defensive/utility capability on a condi build. Sure, staff is great for that but it's not the only way to get those things.

 

...And that's why condition Revenant doesn't seem to exist in PvP and WvW. It does much lower damage than the power based Revenant, has less evasions and lower mobility and the only defensive bonus which gets is resistance to condi damage, which is negligible due the very low duration (even less after the stack of nerfs to boon duration) + the overwhelming pressence of boon stripping skills and traits from other classes (not to mention boon corruption). So mace, axe, the short bow, Mallyx, Kalla and the whole Renegade traitline remain mostly unused in 2 of the 3 game modes. The class not only lacks versatility in terms of skill arrangement but also lacks variety of builds: you have one condi build to raids, one power build for PvP/roaming and another one for WvW zergs. That's all, after almost 3 years of existence the Revenant has less viable builds that when was released. No wonder why is by far the least played class (also: is one of the few clases in which the core profession has 0 value: no single build of core Rev is meta at any game department).

[draxynnic.3719]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> @draxynnic.3719 i would rather have vulnerability on cor than useless bleeds, i dont play condi, nor hammer is set for condi builds that is ruining the weapon. if that is what u want, while vulnerability would help both players that play power, and condi, since damage and condition damage taken are increased by it.

>

> But for that we already have sword, bleeds alone would not do a thing, even on a condi builds we have way better options, hammer is on good position as it is IMO.

> Now if u want to add bleed or vulnerability to other weapon that's ok., maybe on UA , maybe bleed on sword, or staff 5 ?

>

> **Rev's are amazing on WvW atm with alot of roles if u want, m8 be the unque class that isnt tied to one must do it meta.**

 

Hammer has the problem of being borderline overpowered in WvW zergfights, while the nerfs it has received to get it under that line have rendered it pretty much nonexistent everywhere else outside of core revs and heralds in PvE who need a ranged weapon and have no other option. If you're only looking at it in the WvW context, you are looking at it in the only context where it is actually seen as a viable weapon.

 

Look through the metabattle builds if you don't believe me. Now, I'm not claiming that metabattle is the be all and end all, but hammer is _literally nonexistent_ in revenant builds outside of WvW there. Power builds, condi builds, support builds... not one carries a hammer, unless swapped in for content where melee absolutely will not work. Even among the WvW builds, hammer is only present in those intended for large-scale engagements.

 

Converting _some_ of the physical damage to bleed stacks could allow it to actually branch out without needing as many splits. It can be tuned so that as a pure power damage build, the expected damage is about the same or even higher, just with some of it coming out of a DoT effect rather than being an immediate spike. This would give it more counterplay in the WvW conditions in which it IS strong, which might allow it to be stronger overall.

 

Heck, the current damage scaling that CoR has in WvW (which is lower than in PvE or sPvP) _might not even change at all_. Just have some free bleeds on top... if they're not cleansed before they have the chance to do much, that is (which is why the balancing team might be able to afford this: a zerg versus zerg fight has a high chance of conditions being cleansed by allies before they do much). For a more condition-oriented build in smaller-scale fighting, though, the hammer (which, as a reminder, is the ONLY ranged weapon available for non-renegede revenants) can at least do _something._

 

Now, the optimal approach would probably be for ArenaNet to knuckle down and make a new weaponset altogether for core condition revenants. That's enough of a long shot that we should be considering other options, however.

[Kain Francois.4328]

Staff doesn't need to be a condi weapon. Honestly, it doesn't. However, I wouldn't be against giving it *some* condi application.

 

As a utility/cc weapon, you often swap to it when needed. However, this results in a major DPS loss for condi builds compared to power.

 

**Proposal 1:**

They could alleviate the condi dps loss a bit by adding a **very minor chill to autoattack**. Not only would this fit with the "defensive" theme established by staff, but have synergy with Corruption traits.

 

**Proposal 2:**

They can give Staff some form of **energy management**. Such as gaining 5e when autoattack finishes. Not only would this create a new, unique niche for itself, but it would address the stress of "condi" builds by allowing a Revenant simply to use its utility skills instead of power creeping the weapon skills.

[Dace.8173]

> @"WraithOfStealth.1624" said:

> Can't say my memory is good enough to remember every buff/nerf to most weapon skills, and researching all of them on the wiki is a bit more time than i'm willing to invest in this haha. As far as i know there isn't really a weapon on other classes that compares well to rev staff, but i'm going to agree with @"Opopanax.1803" that most of the changes in recent years to weapon skills are just straight up additions without any removal or significant nerfing of other skills' features on those weapons. Adding chill to rev staff would indeed add "more damage" if you're running abyssal chill in a condi build (No reason not to really.), but if you're playing condi any direct damage is fairly negligible to begin with.

>

> So i'm content with leaving staff as it is right now, but once again highly doubt that adding one stack of chill>abyssal chill traited to torment on AA/Skill 2 warrants a decrease in the effectiveness of staff's other features.

>

> We'll just have to agree to disagree.

>

>

 

 

Spend some time over in the Elementalist sub-forum and you'll see them talk about their weapon nerfs. Of late I've seen them mention that their dagger got some mechanical changes and then nerfs. Elementalist staff has seen several nerfs. @"draxynnic.3719" already mentioned hammer. I'm not going to put much work into finding all the most recent nerfs other than to say nerfing weapons is a thing that happens more times than a lot of players would like it to. Typically if a weapon gets a positive change and it is otherwise untouched then that weapon was underperforming and ArenaNet was getting the weapon to where they think it should perform. Revenant staff isn't underperforming. You add more damage potential and the history of ArenaNet supports the idea that it would be nerfed in other ways to account for it. This would be a different kind of conversation if staff was underperforming or they were trying to get people to use the staff more so they wanted to make it more desirable. Since neither of these is the case, additional abilities will result in a nerf somewhere.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > @draxynnic.3719 i would rather have vulnerability on cor than useless bleeds, i dont play condi, nor hammer is set for condi builds that is ruining the weapon. if that is what u want, while vulnerability would help both players that play power, and condi, since damage and condition damage taken are increased by it.

> >

> > But for that we already have sword, bleeds alone would not do a thing, even on a condi builds we have way better options, hammer is on good position as it is IMO.

> > Now if u want to add bleed or vulnerability to other weapon that's ok., maybe on UA , maybe bleed on sword, or staff 5 ?

> >

> > **Rev's are amazing on WvW atm with alot of roles if u want, m8 be the unque class that isnt tied to one must do it meta.**

>

> Hammer has the problem of being borderline overpowered in WvW zergfights, while the nerfs it has received to get it under that line have rendered it pretty much nonexistent everywhere else outside of core revs and heralds in PvE who need a ranged weapon and have no other option. If you're only looking at it in the WvW context, you are looking at it in the only context where it is actually seen as a viable weapon.

>

> Look through the metabattle builds if you don't believe me. Now, I'm not claiming that metabattle is the be all and end all, but hammer is _literally nonexistent_ in revenant builds outside of WvW there. Power builds, condi builds, support builds... not one carries a hammer, unless swapped in for content where melee absolutely will not work. Even among the WvW builds, hammer is only present in those intended for large-scale engagements.

>

> Converting _some_ of the physical damage to bleed stacks could allow it to actually branch out without needing as many splits. It can be tuned so that as a pure power damage build, the expected damage is about the same or even higher, just with some of it coming out of a DoT effect rather than being an immediate spike. This would give it more counterplay in the WvW conditions in which it IS strong, which might allow it to be stronger overall.

>

> Heck, the current damage scaling that CoR has in WvW (which is lower than in PvE or sPvP) _might not even change at all_. Just have some free bleeds on top... if they're not cleansed before they have the chance to do much, that is (which is why the balancing team might be able to afford this: a zerg versus zerg fight has a high chance of conditions being cleansed by allies before they do much). For a more condition-oriented build in smaller-scale fighting, though, the hammer (which, as a reminder, is the ONLY ranged weapon available for non-renegede revenants) can at least do _something._

>

> Now, the optimal approach would probably be for ArenaNet to knuckle down and make a new weaponset altogether for core condition revenants. That's enough of a long shot that we should be considering other options, however.

 

About rev being OP...

Yes and no, u can aoe back some classes can overhwelm very easilly when stacked together.

Rev is OP when stacked players 60%-70% of zerg/group are scourges with losts of aoe spam + barrier, and the other side dont have many scourges.

Due how scourges stack for easy effort of sustain and aoe spam, rev is balanced.

 

But that's how Anet wants players to leech from aoe spam, nothing can be done there.

[draxynnic.3719]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > @draxynnic.3719 i would rather have vulnerability on cor than useless bleeds, i dont play condi, nor hammer is set for condi builds that is ruining the weapon. if that is what u want, while vulnerability would help both players that play power, and condi, since damage and condition damage taken are increased by it.

> > >

> > > But for that we already have sword, bleeds alone would not do a thing, even on a condi builds we have way better options, hammer is on good position as it is IMO.

> > > Now if u want to add bleed or vulnerability to other weapon that's ok., maybe on UA , maybe bleed on sword, or staff 5 ?

> > >

> > > **Rev's are amazing on WvW atm with alot of roles if u want, m8 be the unque class that isnt tied to one must do it meta.**

> >

> > Hammer has the problem of being borderline overpowered in WvW zergfights, while the nerfs it has received to get it under that line have rendered it pretty much nonexistent everywhere else outside of core revs and heralds in PvE who need a ranged weapon and have no other option. If you're only looking at it in the WvW context, you are looking at it in the only context where it is actually seen as a viable weapon.

> >

> > Look through the metabattle builds if you don't believe me. Now, I'm not claiming that metabattle is the be all and end all, but hammer is _literally nonexistent_ in revenant builds outside of WvW there. Power builds, condi builds, support builds... not one carries a hammer, unless swapped in for content where melee absolutely will not work. Even among the WvW builds, hammer is only present in those intended for large-scale engagements.

> >

> > Converting _some_ of the physical damage to bleed stacks could allow it to actually branch out without needing as many splits. It can be tuned so that as a pure power damage build, the expected damage is about the same or even higher, just with some of it coming out of a DoT effect rather than being an immediate spike. This would give it more counterplay in the WvW conditions in which it IS strong, which might allow it to be stronger overall.

> >

> > Heck, the current damage scaling that CoR has in WvW (which is lower than in PvE or sPvP) _might not even change at all_. Just have some free bleeds on top... if they're not cleansed before they have the chance to do much, that is (which is why the balancing team might be able to afford this: a zerg versus zerg fight has a high chance of conditions being cleansed by allies before they do much). For a more condition-oriented build in smaller-scale fighting, though, the hammer (which, as a reminder, is the ONLY ranged weapon available for non-renegede revenants) can at least do _something._

> >

> > Now, the optimal approach would probably be for ArenaNet to knuckle down and make a new weaponset altogether for core condition revenants. That's enough of a long shot that we should be considering other options, however.

>

> About rev being OP...

> Yes and no, u can aoe back some classes can overhwelm very easilly when stacked together.

> Rev is OP when stacked players 60%-70% of zerg/group are scourges with losts of aoe spam + barrier, and the other side dont have many scourges.

> Due how scourges stack for easy effort of sustain and aoe spam, rev is balanced.

>

> But that's how Anet wants players to leech from aoe spam, nothing can be done there.

 

As soon as you say "yes and no", isn't that pretty much conceding my statement of 'borderline overpowered'?

 

Zerg versus zerg fights are not something I get into much, so I'm mostly working off the rationale that has been given for the nerfs. Which finally culminated in CoR being split in WvW but not PvE or sPvP (an unusual combination, since normally the WvW version matches with either the sPvP version or the PvE version), but not before hammer had been hit with enough nerfs to pretty much wipe it from the meta outside of WvW.

 

Ultimately, the point is that saying that hammer is good in WvW is ignoring the fact that it's practically a meme weapon in every other environment, and on this basis, a buff that doesn't help much in WvW, but which does help in other environments, is probably a good way to go in lifting it out of meme status.