The Altar of Betrayal and the Gods

[AstralDusk.1670]

Some PoF spoilers are gonna pop up here.

 

I've been poking around Orr and pondering Balthazar's corrupted altar.

The Altar of Betrayal.

Betrayal has summed up Balthazar pretty well lately, hasn't it? It seems more integral to his character than war. He betrayed the other gods (or they betrayed him; both?), betrayed the Commander, betrayed humanity, and betrayed the trust of his own followers.

 

I'm wondering whether the corruption of Orr's altars may have had a magical backlash effect on the gods. They had strong connections to Orr, these temples may have had a direct connection to their own essences and corrupted their personalities.

We haven't encountered any other gods to expand upon this, right?

 

Lyssa had the Altar of Lies. Could she have become more deceitful than before?

Dwayna, Altar of Tempests; perhaps more prone to fury and recklessness

Melandru, Altar of the Withered Heart; she simply has no will left in her.

Grenth, the Altar of Murdered Dreams; perhaps he's lost all hope.

 

These all seem like traits that would lead to otherwise benevolent gods abandoning not only one of their own, but the fate of humanity as well.

And of course we have Kormir , a goddess who had no presence in Orr and is the only of the Six that still showed her support for Tyrians.

 

Is there anything in the game that might contradict the idea that the Five were at least mildly corrupted by Zhaitan's perversion of their Temples' magic? Because if not, this is exactly the head-canon I need to make sense of Balthazar going fully rogue.

 

I guess Kormir herself not mentioning the gods changing in any way puts a damper on this theory. But perhaps that simply wasn't a reality she was willing to share with mortals. The gods making a conscious decision to bow out of a war that Tyrians must finish may have seemed a more palatable tale to a group of people who needed to see hope and encouragement, not "yeah us gods are all messed in the head now, I'm the only one sane enough to stick around and help. But now I need to make sure they aren't making a mess of things elsewhere, so good luck guys!"

 

[ErikTheTyrant.4527]

Kormir did mention that the ED's were a raw power that were even greater than the gods. It would make sense that Zhaitan could corrupt the gods, if they truly are tied to Orr in some way. Perhaps if we ever fully purify Orr they might return.

[ugrakarma.9416]

i think its related to Balthazar "betrayal" of his father, not?

[Eekasqueak.7850]

That would actually make some sense.

[Fenom.9457]

That would both be cool and make the other 4 gods enemies which in turn could provide us with the plot of an expansion or something

[ThatOddOne.4387]

> @"Fenom.9457" said:

> That would both be cool and make the other 4 gods enemies which in turn could provide us with the plot of an expansion or something

 

No.

[Levi M.7428]

I think the only reason Balthasar turned was because they needed him for the plot. If a god dealing with war wasn’t needed to counter a primal power dragon they would have never introduced any of the gods.

 

Aka they needed a plot device to breakup the dragons as main expansion villains.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > @"Fenom.9457" said:

> > That would both be cool and make the other 4 gods enemies which in turn could provide us with the plot of an expansion or something

>

> No.

 

Yes.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"AstralDusk.1670" said:

> I'm wondering whether the corruption of Orr's altars may have had a magical backlash effect on the gods. They had strong connections to Orr, these temples may have had a direct connection to their own essences and corrupted their personalities.

> We haven't encountered any other gods to expand upon this, right?

>

> Lyssa had the Altar of Lies. Could she have become more deceitful than before?

> Dwayna, Altar of Tempests; perhaps more prone to fury and recklessness

> Melandru, Altar of the Withered Heart; she simply has no will left in her.

> Grenth, the Altar of Murdered Dreams; perhaps he's lost all hope.

>

> These all seem like traits that would lead to otherwise benevolent gods abandoning not only one of their own, but the fate of humanity as well.

 

They're also the opposite of the gods' presentation as we knew from GW1. Which mirrors the risen priests' own words and actions, being the opposite, a defiling, of the gods' teachings.

 

* Balthazar's teachings were about honor and defense of the weak. The Risen Priest of Balthazar talks about senseless slaughter, and the altar is about dishonorable deeds.

* Lyssa's teachings was about seeing through the outer layer of things and looking at the truth beneath the surface. The Risen Priestess spews lies and the altar is similarly about lies.

* Dwayna was about calming winds and using one's own power to aid the weak, the priestess talks about mercy killing and the altar is about ravaging storms.

* Melandru's teachings is about sheltering those who needs it, and letting nature take its course. The priest talks about retribution for misdeeds against nature and, being on the nose, not offering shelter. The altar is about nature dying out.

* Grenth's teachings was about equal justice for all and a proper afterlife. I don't think this priest actually talks, but in the PS the Keeper of the Shrine talks about the lies of the afterlife, and the altar is about broken dreams.

 

> @"AstralDusk.1670" said:

> Is there anything in the game that might contradict the idea that the Five were at least mildly corrupted by Zhaitan's perversion of their Temples' magic? Because if not, this is exactly the head-canon I need to make sense of Balthazar going fully rogue.

 

This is a counter to both arguments: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Enz

 

The name Altar of Murdered Dreams existed before the Cataclysm. It doesn't explain why it's called Murdered Dreams, just that Grenth's temples have a tendency to have grim names. AFAIK, the other altars/temples don't have such explanations behind their names.

 

> @"ugrakarma.9416" said:

> i think its related to Balthazar "betrayal" of his father, not?

We don't know if there was a betrayal. If it is tied to any historical act of betrayal, the closest we get would be Eternals that betrayed Balthazar for Menzies. But it would be weird to name Balthazar's primary altar in Orr after his half-brother's deeds.

[draxynnic.3719]

YMMV, as always, but I always had the impression that the first couple of altars were named based on the experiences of the Pact on their initial encounter. Balthazar's is the Altar of Betrayal, because it's the first place where the Pact came across high-level priests who had betrayed the gods for Zhaitan. Lyssa's became the Altar of Lies through the lies of the Risen Priestess.

[AstralDusk.1670]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

 

> This is a counter to both arguments: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Enz

>

> The name Altar of Murdered Dreams existed before the Cataclysm. It doesn't explain why it's called Murdered Dreams, just that Grenth's temples have a tendency to have grim names. AFAIK, the other altars/temples don't have such explanations behind their names.

 

Hmm, good find. My only follow-up to that is perhaps the Death dragon's magic wasn't particularly effective on the god of death and ice, or the Risen really liked the name so they kept it even as they corrupted the altar. They saw his temple and said "Actually that's... a really good name. This god gets it. Can anyone come up with a more evil play on 'Murdered Dreams?' No? That's pretty evil already, right? Alright, let's go with it."

 

[Nikolai.3648]

> @"AstralDusk.1670" said:

>My only follow-up to that is perhaps the Death dragon's magic wasn't particularly effective on the god of death and ice, or the Risen really liked the name so they kept it even as they corrupted the altar. They saw his temple and said "Actually that's... a really good name. This god gets it. Can anyone come up with a more evil play on 'Murdered Dreams?' No? That's pretty evil already, right? Alright, let's go with it."

 

 

I find the idea of a group of risen just having a little meeting trying and failing to come up with a more sinister sounding naming quite amusing; ty for the giggle.

 

 

While not about the altars of the gods, I have recently wondered about something that might not be worth an own discussion-threat but might fit in here, based only roughly on the name of the discussion: Did we ever get an explanation for why the Altar of Glaust is not used by the pact to gain valuable information?

 

 

Right now, we know that Orr itself is getting a tamer place by the day, so far that getting a secure route to the place itself seems manageable, especially since we managed to get there so shortly after Zhaitan’s fall, when there were far more enemies left. We also know that the forgotten had a great amount of wisdom to spare, more importantly, knowledge about the elder dragons. It would seem to be in our best interest to get as much information as we can acquire and getting a Forgotten back on our side sounds like a good plan to me. Since POF we have loads of branded Forgotten running around. What exactly is stopping us from capturing one and turning it back using the altar? They certainly are not too dangerous to capture and transport and I don’t want to believe that nobody came up with such a basic idea to gain new and eventually powerful allies, neither that the knowledge about the altar was not given to the pact, since it was even a member of the Priory who studied it. Does anyone have an explanation for that that is not based on the writers forgetting their own guns?

 

 

 

[Pax.3548]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> * Balthazar's teachings were about honor and defense of the weak.

 

Defense of the weak? I remember about the honor and glory parts, but I never felt balthazar favored the defense of the weak.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

The Zaishen Order's secondary task was to defend Tyrians who couldn't defend themselves against otherworldly threats, as we see in early Nightfall and the Tomb of the Primeval Kings. Their primary task being to hold and referee tournaments so that there could be honorable battle in Balthazar's name.

[Pax.3548]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> The Zaishen Order's secondary task was to defend Tyrians who couldn't defend themselves against otherworldly threats, as we see in early Nightfall and the Tomb of the Primeval Kings. Their primary task being to hold and referee tournaments so that there could be honorable battle in Balthazar's name.

 

I think that was one of the order's principles rather than something commanded by Balthazar. Besides IIRC nothing in the lore says Balthazar held somekind of respect for the weak. If anything, his mentality back then (what was shown, anyway) reminded me of the old fashioned and stereotyped viking mind: conquest, honor, valor and glory in battle, with no room for the weak.