Main reason current ele should not be buffed

[Arheundel.6451]

A rather controversial comment coming from me I would guess but I believe to have some good points to present to devs and community alike. I dream of a day where elementalist will be finally free from its stats dependency while remaining able to compete with whatever the game throws at them with patches and expansions and for that to happen in my opinion **the old idea of bunker ele must die for good**

 

Does anybody remember the old tournament streams where Jebro was leaving the commentary of an ele vs ele duel mid match to avoid widespread snoozefest among the audience?....Yeah I don't think any true ele player has ever loved that, **a situation where the line between good and bad player becomes blurred due to the inflated build template**

 

It's not fun for both sides I believe and it's something which should not be repeated.....

 

Now when people ask for sustain buffs on ele I get truly worried because I know what would happen if Anet would cave in , **we'd see a widespread abuse of mender sword weavers clogging all pvp/wvw scene**

 

What ele needs at this point is a "total update on their design idea", I would like to propose the idea of **elemental armors** linked to attunements and will do that in another thread, here I have simply wrote down what needed to be said, if anybody disagree with me ...would like to know why...in a civilised manner ofc

[Altion.9576]

Theres always a widespread of abuse x class everytime it gets Buffed, remember Revenant with hammer? remember Dh with traps? thiefs? Necros with the stupid condi damage? I agree with you with the design update, personally I would take away the water line and give air both shock and healing perks.

[LazySummer.2568]

there is nothing wrong with the current sustain bunker weaver build, even before the recent patch's ridiculous nerf that should really be reverted, if it has trouble fighting 1v2 or cant take a capped point away from the enemy because it sacrifice offensive power for its sustain. All the more so when there are other specs, holos & spellbreakers, that are able to do its job better. In tournments you see caster just move the camera away from the side node 1v1s that last forever all the time, and a lot of these 1v1s are sb vs sb or sb vs holo...etc

 

the only time bunker builds are a problem is if they are able to both sustain outnumbered fights easily that 2v1 is just not enough so that you need to bring in more people AND take a capped point from enemy 1v1 because they have both the offense and sustain to do it. Example of these are: phantasm spam bunker chrono, bunker druid before the passive and healing nerf, and ventari rev when it was able to spam its knockback elite.

 

Stop using "its not fun to play against or watch" as a reason to nerf a bunker class because that's pretty subjective and quite frankly firebrands can bunker a sidenode forever too but it also doesnt have the offense to push people off point but how come nobody complains about that?

[Dante.1763]

So..and correct if im wrong, the reason that eles overall uselessness shouldnt get buffed is because it has one build thats almost meme status?

Honestly i just want a DPS spec for ele thats ranged, and isnt overly reliant on 100% perfect rotations to do just barely above average damage, so if a bunker build is getting in the way of that, im going to laugh.

[Jski.6180]

It comes down to tempest aura healing should not hit the tempest it self OR it should be a barrier on auras. Core self support has fallen way behind and weaver tends not to do any thing of worth when it builds that bunker build.

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"LazySummer.2568" said:

> there is nothing wrong with the current sustain bunker weaver build, even before the recent patch's ridiculous nerf that should really be reverted, if it has trouble fighting 1v2 or cant take a capped point away from the enemy because it sacrifice offensive power for its sustain. All the more so when there are other specs, holos & spellbreakers, that are able to do its job better. In tournments you see caster just move the camera away from the side node 1v1s that last forever all the time, and a lot of these 1v1s are sb vs sb or sb vs holo...etc

>

> the only time bunker builds are a problem is if they are able to both sustain outnumbered fights easily that 2v1 is just not enough so that you need to bring in more people AND take a capped point from enemy 1v1 because they have both the offense and sustain to do it. Example of these are: phantasm spam bunker chrono, bunker druid before the passive and healing nerf, and ventari rev when it was able to spam its knockback elite.

>

> Stop using "its not fun to play against or watch" as a reason to nerf a bunker class because that's pretty subjective and quite frankly firebrands can bunker a sidenode forever too but it also doesnt have the offense to push people off point but how come nobody complains about that?

 

Spellbreaker and holosmith can't really support their allies like an ele can do, for certain current ele support is outclassed by firebrand and others atm but it's still there and if you just buff current ele , you would end up with a tournament situation where people run with 4 eles and I want to see that gone before buffing anything.

 

My idea is not to nerf ele sustain any further ...on the contrary I am about to proposed valid buffs to ele sustain in other thread, what we must see gone it's the core ability of eles to support others without trait investment.

 

This core ability to support others is **mostly used by the devs as an excuse to justify any long cast time and imaginable drawback** and this is not something I am making up, this is something @JonPeters confirmed years ago when some player prompted the same old question : " why ele is riddled with huge cast time and bare min defenses?"

 

Another thing that must go it's ele sustain dependency on stats to do anything , ele should not be forced to invest in healing power to have any sustain and that's something I want to address

[Infusion.7149]

All I have to say is there is no such thing as a sword weaver WvW zerg build at the moment. If there is, it likely is severely hampered by 130 range with no weapon swap and having to dump a ton of stats into toughness to not implode (i.e. cele trinkets).

 

I've only seen sword weavers on several occasions roaming with all their defensive utilities , they don't hit hard as say holosmith / daredevil / any shatter mesmer / soulbeast / spellbreaker and generally aren't a threat.

 

Unless it's a tempest with at least a few hundred healing power + powerful aura for aurashare , the support really isn't amazing compared to 2018 standards. Auras other than magnetic aura aren't that strong.

[BlackBeard.2873]

What the heck kind of stockholm syndrome is going on here that eles have been in a sad, sad, state for like 2-3 years, and are asking not to be buffed, but some are asking to be further nerfed.... Its like the mesmers crying they are too weak and need more buffs, because they know they are going to get some to stay #1 golden child class.

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"BlackBeard.2873" said:

> What the heck kind of stockholm syndrome is going on here that eles have been in a sad, sad, state for like 2-3 years, and are asking not to be buffed, but some are asking to be further nerfed.... Its like the mesmers crying they are too weak and need more buffs, because they know they are going to get some to stay #1 golden child class.

 

It's a rather easy idea to grasp..further sustain buffs to current ele with no changes would only cement its position as healing bot and the devs at anet will pat themselves on the back for doing a "great" job by shutting down the clueless community and their angry comments.

 

They have been using this healbot excuse for years to avoid fixing ele for real, you guys keep playing the same cards..and keep being fooled by anet instead than requesting proper sustain change at core basic level that would free ele from the stats shackles

[Hannelore.8153]

I don't know what magical support you see from Eles without traits, but there is none. Their trait lines are literally the worst of any class, pertaining only to a single attunement on their weapon and one trait line that mostly affects utility skills. They have the ability to provide strong support to allies without much investment because just equipping any kind of traits or skills at all is a huge sink for them.

 

It would be like if Druids had to equip a "Feline" or "Canine" trait line to make their pets heal and buff allies. Of course if that was the case then those would have to be incredibly strong buffs because of the relative sacrifice made just by having a build of any kind.

 

TI would argue that Elementalist traitline setup is so bad that it makes Revenant's legend lock-in look good.

 

"Spellbreaker and holosmith can't really support their allies like an ele can do"-

I'm just going to stop here, after saying, both of these classes can support their allies just as much as Ele can, its just in very different ways. I would even argue in that some ways, they bring even more support to the battlefield, there's only so much that healing can do. Ele cleansing and boonshare is limited, they have no unique stat increase on allies, they bring no unique buffs beyond giving out auras, which are not truly unique. The only thing they are super good at is healing, and that is because its what they were designed to do as the only healer spec in the core game.

 

Everything that Ele can do, other classes can do better. Real support and utility, not gimmicks.

 

Also, people complaining about auras and aura healing being strong? Those are some of the weakest mechanics in the game, the only thing that makes them useful is the mobility compared to the WvW "well, mark and symbol" meta for support/utility builds.

 

I've mained Ele for years, and their artificial difficulty needs to go in all game modes, its rediculous.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty

[Usagi.4835]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> Spellbreaker and holosmith can't really support their allies like an ele can do, for certain current ele support is outclassed by firebrand and others atm but it's still there and if you just buff current ele , you would end up with a tournament situation where people run with 4 eles and I want to see that gone before buffing anything.

>

> My idea is not to nerf ele sustain any further ...on the contrary I am about to proposed valid buffs to ele sustain in other thread, what we must see gone it's the core ability of eles to support others without trait investment.

>

> This core ability to support others is **mostly used by the devs as an excuse to justify any long cast time and imaginable drawback** and this is not something I am making up, this is something @JonPeters confirmed years ago when some player prompted the same old question : " why ele is riddled with huge cast time and bare min defenses?"

>

> Another thing that must go it's ele sustain dependency on stats to do anything , ele should not be forced to invest in healing power to have any sustain and that's something I want to address

You ought to be clearer in your first point because you're comparing two specialisations (spellbreaker and holosmith) against elementalist, the class. Scrapper is seeing more meta play and offers potentially greater, more useful support than tempest in Purity of Purpose which, for whatever reason, has no icd and is insanely strong.

 

I disagree with your last point slightly. I agree that base survivability could be tuned up a few notches for ele but that the devs should look into applying stat dependency more consistently across all professions so that there's a trade-off somewhere, otherwise you end up with builds like celestial d/d ele, menders druid and holosmith, where they over-perform and do everything a little too well.

[Infusion.7149]

To be fair, celestial d/d ele is rare these days because celestial amulet has been nerfed and other classes experienced massive powercreep.

[God.2708]

Eles core issue is that when it was first made, its strength lay in its ability to be a jack of all trades self sufficient boon bot and field/finisher utilizer. This was why necromancers were always a bad match up for an early elementalist. They took the eles primary strength in slow boon stacking and turned it on them, and were to tanky for the ele to win the fight before that happened.

 

Now though? You have revs holos and soulbeasts stacking themselves with quickness, 25 stacks of might, and fury the second they get 'in combat'. Part of this is necessary with how Anet has powercreeped sustain and support to where its at. But it makes elementalists and their field combos look really useless in comparison with how long it takes them to get rolling and an integral part of their kit. Elementalists use to be the only source of water fields. Now a scrapper can drop a mobile one and blast it 3 times before an elementalists blast finisher has even finished channeling. Elementalists have no sources of self quickness, a trait only necromancers share with them. But necromancers have twice the HP pool to survive some other classes quickness laden burst, and the ability to rip/corrupt said quickness.

 

Eles don't need a buff to their sustain. They need to retake their crown of being boon king back after arenanet saw how important boons were and gave every other class the boons and then more on top of the other classes already thriving off all the other tools in their kit.

 

Edit: JK, Reapers now have innate quickness in their kit so necroes aren't even exempt anymore. So give eles quickness on summoning a conjured weapon or using one of those new fancy aura skills anet. Go ahead. You've dropped every boon on every other class so far (except aegis which guardians seem to have a stranglehold on besides some token mesmer skills)

 

 

[supreme.3602]

@"Arheundel.6451" just stop.

[Jski.6180]

What build is he talking about put it together and link it here or its meaningless. The cele sword/x weaver build dose no dmg it can live for a good bit though some dmg types but not all and it will run out of steam if it cant out dps the other classes reg effects. Ele is not the only class in the game with hp that rubber-bands a lot some classes hp dose not even move so there realty no room to say why the cure balancing for ele is good.

 

Builds or its not real.

[Arkaile.5604]

@"God.2708" Hey now, ele already has access to quickness, from one of its conjures to boot!

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lightning_Leap

 

Just look at it. LOOK AT IT! Imagine how super useful and viable it would be to run a Lightning Hammer FA ele! Just make sure you never leave open world PvE and don't take on anything more challenging than two to three trash mobs at a time and you'll be having a blast. To be clear, that also means you should never take such a build into PvP or WvW either. It's just so good that people will think you're hacking and report you on sight.

[MyPuppy.8970]

The only reason I can think of is I still see quite some formidable eles out there, doing good job despite the class handicap. A buff would make them a well deserved god tier.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

The reason we ask for more sustain is : elem is an old design class, closing you in one way. Even revenant ; specs like Retribution or salvation and legends are more versatiles and don't lock you into one role (okai, except ventari) if you want to DPS or survive.

 

Elem, specially core and weaver ? You want to cleanse and heal : water spec + water attunement. You want some buffs to DPS, fire and air specs + fire and air attunements. You want to tank, and get some stab sometimes may be: earth. You want some (very short) boons, Arcane. You want more boons, >12mights or a bit more sustain : you have to perform a 36 skills combo while fighting. You want a melee/range swap, or paste you enemy when he kites : no you don't. You want passive BS or passive panic trait when 25% life : "we got you a pulsative barrier".

You don't want all that, just to be a bit more versatile, like mostly every others classes - Holo spamming 25 mights and quickness and heals and stab while cc and bursting you, mirage 36 clones, stealths, cloak, blur, teleport while doing a 2secondes 15-18k dmg combo in glass-cannon ; etc - : eeeeeeeeeeh.... no you don't want that, you can't.

 

Others classes get a significant powercreep in these years, while able to stay polyvalent, easy/instant boons stacking, and not dependent to vitality/toughness/healing power, may be even more than before. Elem too, but the straights DPS, Support and sustain on the contrary have departed.

So yes, if don't want to be carpet and a drag for your team : healing/vitality amulet.

 

And it's very cool we can play weaver somewhere in competitive mode: try to play weaver in wvw, we don't have mender equipement, we don't have narrow points to keep, or you don't die but you don't kill anything unless eager beginners, or you get rekt.

You have so much efforts to do DPS, even to glue your enemies with your pathetic AA, to place your awkward low corner and short range dual attacks, to earn mights and boons, to evade CC or burst skill, to cleanse condition and regen life, while ranger and thief can literraly kill you with AA, and just stealth to replace ;while holo use 2 keys to get 25 mights, blowout you and burst, while SB just have to use FC or shield + eviscerate to kill you in once, with better passive regen and passives stances ...

 

We don't want more sustain to be the immortal class, we want better sustain to do other stuff than just spamming evades with healing power..

 

But the **widespread abuse of mender sword weavers clogging all pvp/wvw scene** still way far Wars and Mirages and Holo and scourge, and mostly bad weavers.

 

 

Edit : I abandon the sword and take back dagger/dagger. In Pvp this is questionable, sword offers more evades and easy combo with water field to keep the point, but WvW there is no doubt sword is shit; no range, weaker, no leap/mobility, #3 too inaccurate, I guess it is not for all modes. The part on WvW is "less true".

[Sahfur.5612]

My spellbreaker and deadeye are far more survivable though.. so...

 

Edit: Just making sure I am clear. My deadeye that can 1 shot people twice in a row then stealth and teleport away is more survivable, in a more or less direct fight. Thats right. Yeah..

 

Edit2: Oh it has 1500 range.

 

Edit3: Also theres no tell on the attack.

 

Edit4: Spellbreaker sure doesn't seem to make me press that many buttons too.. gosh.. theres all those buttons I need to press on ele. Ele can dodge so many of my attacks but I still win even if I click the buttons with my mouse while sipping tea. Are you sure this game is balanced? Golly Gee.

[Durzlla.6295]

Honestly, you’re gonna have to elaborate your point of view more, because in a PvP setting for ele it has always been a matter of you run the meta bunker build or you simply don’t play ele in PvP because you’ll implode at the first sight of damage.

 

Imo ele needs a drastic buff to its baseline healing (at least self healing) and defenses so it doesn’t need to hang on the earth and water trait lines as crutches for survivability.

[Junkpile.7439]

Haven't seen other scepter/dagger vanilla eles in WvW like months so it's kind of clear that spec need buff. Other classes have better burst dmg and they have stealth, dmg immunity, evade spam and so on. What ele have? Mist form and arcane shield. Both totally useless. :D

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"Durzlla.6295" said:

> Honestly, you’re gonna have to elaborate your point of view more, because in a PvP setting for ele it has always been a matter of you run the meta bunker build or you simply don’t play ele in PvP because you’ll implode at the first sight of damage.

>

> Imo ele needs a drastic buff to its baseline healing (at least self healing) and defenses so it doesn’t need to hang on the earth and water trait lines as crutches for survivability.

 

That's exactly what I meant! Ele needs drastic survivability buffs at core level and we must avoid buffs to current ele which would only cement its position as bunker thus further aggravating the situation

[Jski.6180]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Durzlla.6295" said:

> > Honestly, you’re gonna have to elaborate your point of view more, because in a PvP setting for ele it has always been a matter of you run the meta bunker build or you simply don’t play ele in PvP because you’ll implode at the first sight of damage.

> >

> > Imo ele needs a drastic buff to its baseline healing (at least self healing) and defenses so it doesn’t need to hang on the earth and water trait lines as crutches for survivability.

>

> That's exactly what I meant! Ele needs drastic survivability buffs at core level and we must avoid buffs to current ele which would only cement its position as bunker thus further aggravating the situation

 

What elite spec added to any of the classes that has not drastically up there survivabitly? Ele just the one class that has the lowest hp and def at the same time so having active def over other classes is very fair.

[Durzlla.6295]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > @"Durzlla.6295" said:

> > > Honestly, you’re gonna have to elaborate your point of view more, because in a PvP setting for ele it has always been a matter of you run the meta bunker build or you simply don’t play ele in PvP because you’ll implode at the first sight of damage.

> > >

> > > Imo ele needs a drastic buff to its baseline healing (at least self healing) and defenses so it doesn’t need to hang on the earth and water trait lines as crutches for survivability.

> >

> > That's exactly what I meant! Ele needs drastic survivability buffs at core level and we must avoid buffs to current ele which would only cement its position as bunker thus further aggravating the situation

>

> What elite spec added to any of the classes that has not drastically up there survivabitly? Ele just the one class that has the lowest hp and def at the same time so having active def over other classes is very fair.

 

The problem is that ele jeopardizes everything else in order to not fold like paper, because where other classes have defensive tools baked into their weapons, and then can take like one or two defensive utilities, ele has to take 1-2 defensive trait lines and then load their entire bar up with defensive CDs to make up for the awful passive and active defense ele has baseline.

 

This is amplified by the fact that they also need to use a healing amulet so their self healing can actually be something worthwhile.

 

This ends up with ele either being a complete juggernaught, unphaseable by anything (usually no damage), or they’re just 100% useless because they die even with all of that investment, and/or try and go damage but now have 0 defense at no real gain since ele damage is consistent and not bursty.

[Jski.6180]

> @"Durzlla.6295" said:

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > > @"Durzlla.6295" said:

> > > > Honestly, you’re gonna have to elaborate your point of view more, because in a PvP setting for ele it has always been a matter of you run the meta bunker build or you simply don’t play ele in PvP because you’ll implode at the first sight of damage.

> > > >

> > > > Imo ele needs a drastic buff to its baseline healing (at least self healing) and defenses so it doesn’t need to hang on the earth and water trait lines as crutches for survivability.

> > >

> > > That's exactly what I meant! Ele needs drastic survivability buffs at core level and we must avoid buffs to current ele which would only cement its position as bunker thus further aggravating the situation

> >

> > What elite spec added to any of the classes that has not drastically up there survivabitly? Ele just the one class that has the lowest hp and def at the same time so having active def over other classes is very fair.

>

> The problem is that ele jeopardizes everything else in order to not fold like paper, because where other classes have defensive tools baked into their weapons, and then can take like one or two defensive utilities, ele has to take 1-2 defensive trait lines and then load their entire bar up with defensive CDs to make up for the awful passive and active defense ele has baseline.

>

> This is amplified by the fact that they also need to use a healing amulet so their self healing can actually be something worthwhile.

>

> This ends up with ele either being a complete juggernaught, unphaseable by anything (usually no damage), or they’re just 100% useless because they die even with all of that investment, and/or try and go damage but now have 0 defense at no real gain since ele damage is consistent and not bursty.

 

Like war who IS a juggernaught? Or maybe a scorge or maybe a thf or maybe a eng or maybe a gurd or maybe a ranger or maybe mez or maybe rev all wich are very much unkillable with there elite spec and significantly more tankly both passively and actively then any thing ele has. Ontop of passivly being effect in combat with out going all in (like you said paper ele for any thing of real use).

 

All of the other classes are already at that point of why ele should not be buffed but its ok for them but not for ele is all every one is saying and trying to fool them self into thinking that they are playing high skill classes when the class is doing more work for them then there own game play.

 

If you not on ele your relaying on your class more then your own playing skill. This is what it means to lack every thing as an ele and have every thing as not an ele.