Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged]

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> @"Poelala.2830" @"jportell.2197"

>

> Weaver definitely does a bit more damage than Spellbreaker with bruiser oriented specs, and it does a lot more damage than Spellbreaker with burst oriented specs.

 

FA weaver - sure. Then the sustain is D- though.

 

But noooonononononooonononoooo on any bruiser weaver! Noooononononono! *hits random rampage button*

 

Not the focus of the discussion though, so whatever. :tongue:

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Would like that weaver build please - more dps than Spellbreaker and Soulbeast while being top tier in sustain.

Kitten 2k criticals!

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"Sampson.2403" Dude, you gotta swap amulet/rune to tweak vs. what's in the match. Even just the middle Mirage line selection allows this enormous wiggle room for tweaking vs. specifically what is in the match against you. The more I've been messing around with those selections, I do believe Condi Mirage has a top tier level of adaption while still running "the same build", seems to be much more than most of the other builds.

[Sampson.2403]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> @"Sampson.2403" Dude, you gotta swap amulet/rune to tweak vs. what's in the match. Even just the middle Mirage line selection allows this enormous wiggle room for tweaking vs. specifically what is in the match against you. The more I've been messing around with those selections, I do believe Condi Mirage has a top tier level of adaption while still running "the same build", seems to be much more than most of the other builds.

 

S'all good man, I've just been sent down here (by jesus) to make sure that mesmers get a fair hearing in this world. When someone says that they unworthy and OP/EZ the lord says 3ITCH YOU KNOW WHAT I WANT, I WANNA TALK TO SAMPSON.

 

So there's that, plus I'm a mirage in real life. I mirage thrust and jaunt combo into my office everyday at work and my co workers are impressed that i can do that.

[EnderzShadow.2506]

> @"Sampson.2403" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"Tiah.3091" Nice troll bait. Be more quaint with it next time, it was too obvious.

> >

> > @"Sampson.2403" I do have almost 13,000 games played, so picking up on Condi Mirage was quite easy. Also, you should use some rebuttal other than the worn out "oh you must be playing against silver players." Seriously though, I get top 10 players in matches in ranked about 1/3 games, and in unranked the faces I see are the usual plat 1 to plat 2 faces I see in ranked. Just throw something else at me as a rebuttal kitten, at this point the "oh you must play silver division" kitten doesn't have freeloading forum sword weight like you seem to think it does. Especially not after recent months of actually beating plat 2-3 teams in AT dailies. Step it up a bit.

> >

> >

> >

>

> I've been playing the mirage for 10 months str8t in plat 1 - 2 games and im not spamming keys. I have the muscle memory and cooldown management engrained into my skull.

>

> You admitted that you don't have the cooldowns synced up for flow and you also admitted that you're just mindlessly spamming keys.

>

> Despite all of this, your results massively surpass mine.

>

> That's why im calling BS. :)

>

> I don't doubt that you may have played it well for a first timer and that you were for sure surprised by its ability to roflstomp by spamming occasionaly. Its a great class. But your claims are exaggerated :) To be good at mirage does indeed require that you know what you are doing.

 

What you just said, doesn't really 'jive' with what the OP said.

"Once I was comfortable with the rehearsed 1-shot power burst **I swapped to practice condi bursting** . I was immediately surprised at how much less effort was required to land enormous damage with condi. Sure **there are optimal ways to land its condi burst** but in truth, Condi Mirage can randomly push any buttons in any order while landing enormous AoE damage, and since so much of what it is doing is random AoE, 3/4ths of it's attacks don't even require having a target on an enemy.

 

 

To me that says, he practiced the condi burst the same way he practiced the power burst but figured out it wasnt as difficult to pull off.

 

Where did you get he was 'mindlessly spamming keys'? Cause he never said that.

 

But holy krap, everyones jumped on a condi Mesmer and fought a couple unranked games and had NO IDEA whatsoever what they were doing and still won fights.

Thats common....

You won't find a single person do that on power shatter mes.

 

_The sheer mobility granted through Mirage made it feel like I was playing a different game than Guild Wars_

[Tact.8063]

i wont say much i have resently change to reaper main from condition mirage but i would like to say OP post is way to vaguge and filled in inacurated data (mesmer have heavy AOE since when? only realy powerfull aoe is F2 with standard 240 radius)

my experience

 

* gurdian = possible if i dont let him heal with intrupt ( i will die otherwise very hard and close fight)

* warr = spell breaker a little tough but with right amount of waiting possible

* necro= scourge= easy 1v1 hard in multy fight hardest

reaper = super easy lack of condition clease

* ** ele= unkillable , change target immediately**

* eng= very easy most of time i little hard with secondy team (hard in close 2v2)

* thief = mostly easy just dont meet one at half health or you are dead

* revenant = why are you a thing?? so easy unless i have no sustain skill

* ranger= i dont fight ranger ..... i kill them easiest thing ever just close gap

[Sampson.2403]

> @"EnderzShadow.2506" said:

 

> Where did you get he was 'mindlessly spamming keys'? Cause he never said that.

 

THIRD PARAGRAPH OF ORIGINAL POST SIR - MAYBE YOU NEED tEh GLASSES BRO:

 

"The 2nd thing I noticed is that I could **play sloppy as all hell and still kill everyone that I engaged 1v1**, with no real counter builds out there that the Condi Mirage couldn't handle or deal with. **I'd just go in directly at them regardless of class and spam buttons** as I tested different combos and they'd eventually go down due to the 3rd thing I noticed, my ridiculous level of burst and attrition."

[Daishi.6027]

-Revert 2/3 nerfs to: Jaunt, vigor traits, or Blurred Fenzy.

 

-Maim of the disillusioned - Now only affects Mind Wrack and Cry of Frustration.

 

-Ineptitude - No longer confuse on blind. Interrupts cause confusion. Successfully evading an attack causes blind (icd 4 sec?).

 

This directly de-weaponizes blinds and reduces the over all output, while keeping weaponized interrupts.

[Arcaedus.7290]

Nice post. This sounds similar to the experience I had with condi chrono when I geared one up for roaming back in the day. I think it's also worth mentioning just how hard condi mirage is to fight against given a very experienced player playing at the skill ceiling behind the keyboard.

 

I've read most of the posts in this thread and most everyone arguing against Boyer, or criticizing him seems to be nitpicking or only rebutting a few minor details. Speaking as objectively as possible, if you consider all performance metrics, condi mirage overperforms the most across the board. Sure, it isn't the best at any one thing, burst, aoe pressure, attrition, team support/utility, mobility/disengage, etc., but considered altogether, nothing even comes close to dethroning condi mirage.

 

This really makes me wish that they would abolish the 2 classes per-team limit. If we started getting matches involving 4 or 5 of one class, that would be an excellent statistic to use for diagnosing what needs nerfing/buffing.

[EnderzShadow.2506]

> @"Sampson.2403" said:

> > @"EnderzShadow.2506" said:

>

> > Where did you get he was 'mindlessly spamming keys'? Cause he never said that.

>

> THIRD PARAGRAPH OF ORIGINAL POST SIR - MAYBE YOU NEED tEh GLASSES BRO:

>

> "The 2nd thing I noticed is that I could **play sloppy as all hell and still kill everyone that I engaged 1v1**, with no real counter builds out there that the Condi Mirage couldn't handle or deal with. **I'd just go in directly at them regardless of class and spam buttons** as I tested different combos and they'd eventually go down due to the 3rd thing I noticed, my ridiculous level of burst and attrition."

 

LOL OK BRUH

[Sampson.2403]

> @"EnderzShadow.2506" said:

> > @"Sampson.2403" said:

> > > @"EnderzShadow.2506" said:

> >

> > > Where did you get he was 'mindlessly spamming keys'? Cause he never said that.

> >

> > THIRD PARAGRAPH OF ORIGINAL POST SIR - MAYBE YOU NEED tEh GLASSES BRO:

> >

> > "The 2nd thing I noticed is that I could **play sloppy as all hell and still kill everyone that I engaged 1v1**, with no real counter builds out there that the Condi Mirage couldn't handle or deal with. **I'd just go in directly at them regardless of class and spam buttons** as I tested different combos and they'd eventually go down due to the 3rd thing I noticed, my ridiculous level of burst and attrition."

>

> LOL OK BRUH

 

THATS RIGHT BRO, YOU TRIED AND YOU FAILED. OWN IT.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

> @"Poelala.2830" said:

> In Trevor's world, Weaver does more damage than Spellbreaker.

 

It's almost as if AoE exists.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"Sampson.2403" said:

> > @"EnderzShadow.2506" said:

>

> > Where did you get he was 'mindlessly spamming keys'? Cause he never said that.

>

> THIRD PARAGRAPH OF ORIGINAL POST SIR - MAYBE YOU NEED tEh GLASSES BRO:

>

> "The 2nd thing I noticed is that I could **play sloppy as all hell and still kill everyone that I engaged 1v1**, with no real counter builds out there that the Condi Mirage couldn't handle or deal with. **I'd just go in directly at them regardless of class and spam buttons** as I tested different combos and they'd eventually go down due to the 3rd thing I noticed, my ridiculous level of burst and attrition."

 

But does it say "I could play sloppy" or did it say "I was playing sloppy for 10 games". Maybe we should call an investigation on this bro.

[allias.1420]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> @"incisorr.9502"

> Yes but the top of the leaderboards doesn't exactly represent any fair play and/or real demonstration of class performance in real matches either. We can all pretend that match manipulation isn't REAL but it is and there is no coincidence that "every time", might I stress "every time" I have had a match against a top 10 player this season, I mysteriously get a DC on my team. "every time"

>

> Why is it happening? Well streaming seems to be linked to all of the obvious win trading I've seen this season. I'm pretty sure what is left of the win trading community is just predominantly about commercial interests via twitch. It's real simple to understand "no one wants to watch a loser." <- It's true, I know it's true, they know it's true, although it's hush to ever discuss these things publicly for obvious reasons. It's whatever in my book at this point, but don't you dare even act like that kitten is real and use it as a sword while discussing class balance. I mean it's no different of an incentive than flooding a twitch chat with a load of bots that randomly talk about random things for 6 hours while someone is streaming, to make it look active. They do what they have to do to remain noticed, I get it. Not saying all of them, but a lot of them do. Just don't bring that fake kitten in as a sword into real discussions. It isn't right and it's embarrassing.

 

Hahahaha. Who on earth wants to wintrade to be noticed on twitch? GW2 pvp in twitch gets people like 50 viewers if that? People don't want to watch that kitten whether they win or lose lmao

 

 

[EUmad.7645]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> True story:

>

> For the first time in years, I logged in to get some practice on power/condi Mirage, this was a few days ago. If you look on my pie chart of "classes played" I have so few Mesmer games played that it doesn't even show on the pie chart, not a sliver. <- Keep that in mind.

>

> I loaded up a couple videos from Shorts to learn how to run Mirage bursting. I did exactly what this guy said to do in the video, I sat for about an hour and blew up a bunch of golems while getting used to power bursting. The power bursting took a real focused effort to become adept with. The power burst is fickle in the idea that, not only is it difficult to do properly to begin with, but if your finger fumbles at all during that burst, it's ruined. Once I was comfortable with the rehearsed 1-shot power burst, I swapped to practice condi bursting. I was immediately surprised at how much less effort was required to land enormous damage with condi. Sure there are optimal ways to land its condi burst but in truth, Condi Mirage can randomly push any buttons in any order while landing enormous AoE damage, and since so much of what it is doing is random AoE, 3/4ths of it's attacks don't even require having a target on an enemy.

>

> So I felt comfortable on both variants and went to run some unranked. I used Power Mirage first and must have ran 3 or 4 games with it. I killed some, died some, and then won some, lost some. My initial response was that Power Mirage was high risk/high reward and there was no immediate feeling of "man this class is over powered". Then I swapped the build to Condi Mirage. The first couple matches I ran were solo and **the 1st thing I noticed was that I did not have to die unless I wanted to or got too greedy.** Seriously though, between Portal Entre, Blink, 3x Jaunts, and 2x on demand stealths, there is questionably a bit too much wiggle room for disengagement. The sheer mobility granted through Mirage made it feel like I was playing a different game than Guild Wars 2. Even Thieves require an enemy target for most of their teleports, whereas a Mirage has 4x ground target teleports and Portal Entre. **The 2nd thing I noticed is that I could play sloppy as all hell and still kill everyone that I engaged 1v1, with no real counter builds out there that the Condi Mirage couldn't handle or deal with.** I'd just go in directly at them regardless of class and spam buttons as I tested different combos and they'd eventually go down due to **the 3rd thing I noticed, my ridiculous level of burst and attrition.** Other classes have burst or attrition, but Condi Mirage has burst and attrition. This was assisted by **the 4th thing I noticed, its confusing mechanics by design.** Most players, even the ones who would be competent to play against me on other classes, would just fumble targeting accuracy and timing, applying little to no offensive pressure, while the 100% uptime of heavy attrition would inevitably eat away at them because no class outside of Spellbreaker can deal with the condition application paired with consistent power damage. I felt that the mechanical value of deception offered from cycling clones, dropping enemy targeting, stealthing and superior disengagement was being highly underacknowledged by the players who defend Mirage. **The 5th and most important thing that I noticed was how I could win outmanned fights, 1v2s and even one 1v3 on that particular night, while straight up 100% disengaging and playing defensively.** This is something that no other class can do in quite the same way that Mirage can do it. Not only do other classes have less mobility than Mirage and a lot less stun break, but they require dedicated attack frames to land their damage. Mirage on the other, can 100% defensively retreat while spamming shatter skills whenever someone gets close to them, and then keep retreating with no real dedication towards stopping to actually engage an opponent. There was an instance in one match where I had 3 players chasing me around a far node in Skyhammer. Over the course of time, I was able to kill each player through superior mobility and waiting for opportune moments to land an easy no-dedication burst and keep running. I would have died on any other class, even a Holosmith. **The 6th and final somewhat notable thing that I noticed is that even as a novice Mirage, it was incredibly easy to land into the middle of a team fight, drop a massive 4 shatter condi bomb and then completely disengage the fight with zero risk involved.** Whereas on something like a Scourge or a Condi Ranger or even a Trap DH, ect.. ect.., heading into the middle of a team fight to drop a DPS bomb is a real dedication. You either win that fight or you die trying after the dedication, there are no get out of jail free cards outside of a tactful team retreat or awkwardly peeling and leaving your team behind early. I must have played 9 or 10 games on Condi Mirage that night. I won most of them but not all of them, but I kitten sure only died once on that build, and it only happened when I was meme /emoting the other team and eventually 4x players figured they'd chase me and kill me.

>

> After a week's worth of playing and catching up on the knowledge of all of the class metas, my response to Condi Mirage was "It feels like I'm the kitten Terminator when I play this class." In my opinion, it is inherently the most powerful class not due to the mathematical attributes tied around its skills & traits but due to it's mechanical design within the game engine. Hey, I'm not going to sit here and tell you how OP it is or what nerfs/buffs could be done to it, but I would like to compare it to other current builds being used within the S13 end season meta so users in this forum can see a better representation of what is actually going on.

>

> I'll use a class grading system that ranges between (F) and (S). The grades will be applied to 4x basic Conquest attributes: DPS, Self Sustain, Mobility, Team Support/Utility.

>

> **Spellbreaker:**

> * DPS (A-)

> * Self Sustain (S+)

> * Mobility (B+)

> * Team Support/Utility © "Its CCs do contribute to utility in team fights"

>

> **Herald:**

> * DPS (S)

> * Self Sustain (B)

> * Mobility (C+) while rotating, (A+) if chasing

> * Team Support/Utility (B+)

>

> **Firebrand:**

> * DPS (D+)

> * Self Sustain (A) "He can't 1v2 in the same way that something like a Spellbreaker can do"

> * Mobility (C+)

> * Team Support/Utility (S+)

>

> **Core Guardian:**

> * DPS (S) on JI bursts, (A-) on sustained DPS

> * Self Sustain (A) "I wouldn't grant it an S because once Renewed Focus is on CD, he's a sitting duck"

> * Mobility © while rotating, (B+) while chasing

> * Team Support/Utility (D-)

>

> **Holosmith:**

> * DPS (S) "I ranked it S not out of numerics but rather how easy it is to land and follow up with chain attacks"

> * Self Sustain (A+) "Regardless of its sustain 1v1, I give it only A+ because it cannot survive 1v2 focus in the same way as a Spellbreaker or Mirage"

> * Mobility (B) when rotating, (B+) when chasing

> * Team Support/Utility (S) "I give it an S because of so many CCs, blasting water fields, splashing boons, and team stealth mechanics"

>

> **Soulbeast:**

> * DPS (S++) if glass cannon roamer, (A-) if bruiser

> * Self Sustain © if glass cannon roamer, (B+) if bruiser

> * Mobility (A-) if glass cannon roamer, (B-) if bruiser

> * Team Support/Utility (E+) if glass cannon roamer, (B-) if running boonshare

>

> **Deadeyes & Daredevils:**

> * DPS (S++) if DE burst, (S-) Daredevil

> * Self Sustain (D) if DE burst, (C+) Daredevil

> * Mobility (S)

> * Team Support/Utility (E+)

>

> **Reapers & Scourges:**

> * DPS (S+) Reaper, (B+) Scourge

> * Self Sustain (B+) Reaper "he can't survive 1v2s", (B-) Scourge

> * Mobility (C-) Reaper, (C+) Scourge "Worm/Walk/Portal could debatably raise these grades"

> * Team Support/Utility (C-) Reaper "It does have some boon removal", (A-) Scourge

>

> **Weaver:**

> * DPS (A)

> * Self Sustain (A+) "The barrier play just isn't as strong as some would want to believe it is. I don't feel it deserves an S"

> * Mobility (B)

> * Team Support/Utility (C+)

>

> **Power & Condi Mirages:**

> * DPS (S++) with accurate power burst but only (B) with sustained power damage, it gets (S+) with sustained Condi Mirage bursting & attrition

> * Self Sustain © for Power and (S) for Condi

> * Mobility (S+) when on either build while using Portal/Blink/Jaunt

> * Team Support/Utility (A) with Portal Entre "The rotational control that Portal Entre grants is worth an A by itself"

>

> Let's sum up this grading into an easier to view list:

> * Spellbreaker: dps(A-) sus(S+) mob(B+) sup/uti©

> * Herald: dps(S) sus(B) mob(C+ or A+) sup/uti(B+)

> * Firebrand: dps(D+) sus(A) mob(C+) sup/uti(S+)

> * Core Guard: dps(S) sus(A) mob(C or B+) sup/uti(D-)

> * Holosmith: dps(S) sus(A+) mob(B or B+) sup/uti(S)

> * Soulbeast Roamer: dps(S++) sus© mob(A-) sup/uti(E+)

> * Soulbeast Bruiser: dps(A-) sus(B+) mob(B-) sup/uti(B-)

> * Deadeye: dps(S++) sus(D) mob(S) sup/uti(E+)

> * Daredevil: dps(S-) sus(C+) mob(S) sup/uti(E+)

> * Reaper: dps(S+) sus(B+) mob(C-) sup/uti(C-)

> * Scourge: dps(B+) sus(B-) mob(C+) sup/uti(A-)

> * Weaver: dps(A) sus(A+) mob(B) sup/uti(C+)

> * Power Mirage: dps(S++) sus© mob(S+) sup/uti(A)

> * Condi Mirage: dps(S+) sus(S) mob(S+) sup/uti(A)

>

> That isn't all, there is one other aspect that greatly effects a build's diversity in Conquest and in my opinion is the aspect that creates most of the argument in this forum as to "if a build is over powered or not" and that is, how easy is it to play? I won't go into another list of grading "You're welcome" but I will point two extreme examples: A Daredevil playing in plat+ divisions cannot afford to make a single error or he dies, whereas something like a Condi Mirage can actually afford to play sloppy, still pose a serious threat to whoever he engages, and escape to ooc on-demand as he wishes. Now we can argue how different play is between lower tiers, medium tiers and high tiers and some of it is true, but a lot of it is just a bunch of gobble kitten from biased players.

>

> But yeah, in my opinion Condi Mirage is still easily the dominant class in Conquest and that is how it would be graded alongside of the others. I figured I'd share the story & analysis with the other forum users. Draw from it what you will.

 

What do u mean with condi mirage ? which build ? I don't find pure condi mirage so good. I tried full condi with rabid or trabalizer runes but i found hybrid mirage much better. With hybrid i mean carrion or viper based builds in which you add direct damage to condi damage. Probably i am not that good with scepter so , with Staff a mixed approch ( power and condi ) works much better but if you find good players , for me condi mirage is not that op. Also in wvw where you can use perplexity runes and dire, i prefer an hybrid setup .

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"EUmad.7645" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > True story:

> >

> > For the first time in years, I logged in to get some practice on power/condi Mirage, this was a few days ago. If you look on my pie chart of "classes played" I have so few Mesmer games played that it doesn't even show on the pie chart, not a sliver. <- Keep that in mind.

> >

> > I loaded up a couple videos from Shorts to learn how to run Mirage bursting. I did exactly what this guy said to do in the video, I sat for about an hour and blew up a bunch of golems while getting used to power bursting. The power bursting took a real focused effort to become adept with. The power burst is fickle in the idea that, not only is it difficult to do properly to begin with, but if your finger fumbles at all during that burst, it's ruined. Once I was comfortable with the rehearsed 1-shot power burst, I swapped to practice condi bursting. I was immediately surprised at how much less effort was required to land enormous damage with condi. Sure there are optimal ways to land its condi burst but in truth, Condi Mirage can randomly push any buttons in any order while landing enormous AoE damage, and since so much of what it is doing is random AoE, 3/4ths of it's attacks don't even require having a target on an enemy.

> >

> > So I felt comfortable on both variants and went to run some unranked. I used Power Mirage first and must have ran 3 or 4 games with it. I killed some, died some, and then won some, lost some. My initial response was that Power Mirage was high risk/high reward and there was no immediate feeling of "man this class is over powered". Then I swapped the build to Condi Mirage. The first couple matches I ran were solo and **the 1st thing I noticed was that I did not have to die unless I wanted to or got too greedy.** Seriously though, between Portal Entre, Blink, 3x Jaunts, and 2x on demand stealths, there is questionably a bit too much wiggle room for disengagement. The sheer mobility granted through Mirage made it feel like I was playing a different game than Guild Wars 2. Even Thieves require an enemy target for most of their teleports, whereas a Mirage has 4x ground target teleports and Portal Entre. **The 2nd thing I noticed is that I could play sloppy as all hell and still kill everyone that I engaged 1v1, with no real counter builds out there that the Condi Mirage couldn't handle or deal with.** I'd just go in directly at them regardless of class and spam buttons as I tested different combos and they'd eventually go down due to **the 3rd thing I noticed, my ridiculous level of burst and attrition.** Other classes have burst or attrition, but Condi Mirage has burst and attrition. This was assisted by **the 4th thing I noticed, its confusing mechanics by design.** Most players, even the ones who would be competent to play against me on other classes, would just fumble targeting accuracy and timing, applying little to no offensive pressure, while the 100% uptime of heavy attrition would inevitably eat away at them because no class outside of Spellbreaker can deal with the condition application paired with consistent power damage. I felt that the mechanical value of deception offered from cycling clones, dropping enemy targeting, stealthing and superior disengagement was being highly underacknowledged by the players who defend Mirage. **The 5th and most important thing that I noticed was how I could win outmanned fights, 1v2s and even one 1v3 on that particular night, while straight up 100% disengaging and playing defensively.** This is something that no other class can do in quite the same way that Mirage can do it. Not only do other classes have less mobility than Mirage and a lot less stun break, but they require dedicated attack frames to land their damage. Mirage on the other, can 100% defensively retreat while spamming shatter skills whenever someone gets close to them, and then keep retreating with no real dedication towards stopping to actually engage an opponent. There was an instance in one match where I had 3 players chasing me around a far node in Skyhammer. Over the course of time, I was able to kill each player through superior mobility and waiting for opportune moments to land an easy no-dedication burst and keep running. I would have died on any other class, even a Holosmith. **The 6th and final somewhat notable thing that I noticed is that even as a novice Mirage, it was incredibly easy to land into the middle of a team fight, drop a massive 4 shatter condi bomb and then completely disengage the fight with zero risk involved.** Whereas on something like a Scourge or a Condi Ranger or even a Trap DH, ect.. ect.., heading into the middle of a team fight to drop a DPS bomb is a real dedication. You either win that fight or you die trying after the dedication, there are no get out of jail free cards outside of a tactful team retreat or awkwardly peeling and leaving your team behind early. I must have played 9 or 10 games on Condi Mirage that night. I won most of them but not all of them, but I kitten sure only died once on that build, and it only happened when I was meme /emoting the other team and eventually 4x players figured they'd chase me and kill me.

> >

> > After a week's worth of playing and catching up on the knowledge of all of the class metas, my response to Condi Mirage was "It feels like I'm the kitten Terminator when I play this class." In my opinion, it is inherently the most powerful class not due to the mathematical attributes tied around its skills & traits but due to it's mechanical design within the game engine. Hey, I'm not going to sit here and tell you how OP it is or what nerfs/buffs could be done to it, but I would like to compare it to other current builds being used within the S13 end season meta so users in this forum can see a better representation of what is actually going on.

> >

> > I'll use a class grading system that ranges between (F) and (S). The grades will be applied to 4x basic Conquest attributes: DPS, Self Sustain, Mobility, Team Support/Utility.

> >

> > **Spellbreaker:**

> > * DPS (A-)

> > * Self Sustain (S+)

> > * Mobility (B+)

> > * Team Support/Utility © "Its CCs do contribute to utility in team fights"

> >

> > **Herald:**

> > * DPS (S)

> > * Self Sustain (B)

> > * Mobility (C+) while rotating, (A+) if chasing

> > * Team Support/Utility (B+)

> >

> > **Firebrand:**

> > * DPS (D+)

> > * Self Sustain (A) "He can't 1v2 in the same way that something like a Spellbreaker can do"

> > * Mobility (C+)

> > * Team Support/Utility (S+)

> >

> > **Core Guardian:**

> > * DPS (S) on JI bursts, (A-) on sustained DPS

> > * Self Sustain (A) "I wouldn't grant it an S because once Renewed Focus is on CD, he's a sitting duck"

> > * Mobility © while rotating, (B+) while chasing

> > * Team Support/Utility (D-)

> >

> > **Holosmith:**

> > * DPS (S) "I ranked it S not out of numerics but rather how easy it is to land and follow up with chain attacks"

> > * Self Sustain (A+) "Regardless of its sustain 1v1, I give it only A+ because it cannot survive 1v2 focus in the same way as a Spellbreaker or Mirage"

> > * Mobility (B) when rotating, (B+) when chasing

> > * Team Support/Utility (S) "I give it an S because of so many CCs, blasting water fields, splashing boons, and team stealth mechanics"

> >

> > **Soulbeast:**

> > * DPS (S++) if glass cannon roamer, (A-) if bruiser

> > * Self Sustain © if glass cannon roamer, (B+) if bruiser

> > * Mobility (A-) if glass cannon roamer, (B-) if bruiser

> > * Team Support/Utility (E+) if glass cannon roamer, (B-) if running boonshare

> >

> > **Deadeyes & Daredevils:**

> > * DPS (S++) if DE burst, (S-) Daredevil

> > * Self Sustain (D) if DE burst, (C+) Daredevil

> > * Mobility (S)

> > * Team Support/Utility (E+)

> >

> > **Reapers & Scourges:**

> > * DPS (S+) Reaper, (B+) Scourge

> > * Self Sustain (B+) Reaper "he can't survive 1v2s", (B-) Scourge

> > * Mobility (C-) Reaper, (C+) Scourge "Worm/Walk/Portal could debatably raise these grades"

> > * Team Support/Utility (C-) Reaper "It does have some boon removal", (A-) Scourge

> >

> > **Weaver:**

> > * DPS (A)

> > * Self Sustain (A+) "The barrier play just isn't as strong as some would want to believe it is. I don't feel it deserves an S"

> > * Mobility (B)

> > * Team Support/Utility (C+)

> >

> > **Power & Condi Mirages:**

> > * DPS (S++) with accurate power burst but only (B) with sustained power damage, it gets (S+) with sustained Condi Mirage bursting & attrition

> > * Self Sustain © for Power and (S) for Condi

> > * Mobility (S+) when on either build while using Portal/Blink/Jaunt

> > * Team Support/Utility (A) with Portal Entre "The rotational control that Portal Entre grants is worth an A by itself"

> >

> > Let's sum up this grading into an easier to view list:

> > * Spellbreaker: dps(A-) sus(S+) mob(B+) sup/uti©

> > * Herald: dps(S) sus(B) mob(C+ or A+) sup/uti(B+)

> > * Firebrand: dps(D+) sus(A) mob(C+) sup/uti(S+)

> > * Core Guard: dps(S) sus(A) mob(C or B+) sup/uti(D-)

> > * Holosmith: dps(S) sus(A+) mob(B or B+) sup/uti(S)

> > * Soulbeast Roamer: dps(S++) sus© mob(A-) sup/uti(E+)

> > * Soulbeast Bruiser: dps(A-) sus(B+) mob(B-) sup/uti(B-)

> > * Deadeye: dps(S++) sus(D) mob(S) sup/uti(E+)

> > * Daredevil: dps(S-) sus(C+) mob(S) sup/uti(E+)

> > * Reaper: dps(S+) sus(B+) mob(C-) sup/uti(C-)

> > * Scourge: dps(B+) sus(B-) mob(C+) sup/uti(A-)

> > * Weaver: dps(A) sus(A+) mob(B) sup/uti(C+)

> > * Power Mirage: dps(S++) sus© mob(S+) sup/uti(A)

> > * Condi Mirage: dps(S+) sus(S) mob(S+) sup/uti(A)

> >

> > That isn't all, there is one other aspect that greatly effects a build's diversity in Conquest and in my opinion is the aspect that creates most of the argument in this forum as to "if a build is over powered or not" and that is, how easy is it to play? I won't go into another list of grading "You're welcome" but I will point two extreme examples: A Daredevil playing in plat+ divisions cannot afford to make a single error or he dies, whereas something like a Condi Mirage can actually afford to play sloppy, still pose a serious threat to whoever he engages, and escape to ooc on-demand as he wishes. Now we can argue how different play is between lower tiers, medium tiers and high tiers and some of it is true, but a lot of it is just a bunch of gobble kitten from biased players.

> >

> > But yeah, in my opinion Condi Mirage is still easily the dominant class in Conquest and that is how it would be graded alongside of the others. I figured I'd share the story & analysis with the other forum users. Draw from it what you will.

>

> What do u mean with condi mirage ? which build ? I don't find pure condi mirage so good. I tried full condi with rabid or trabalizer runes but i found hybrid mirage much better. With hybrid i mean carrion or viper based builds in which you add direct damage to condi damage. Probably i am not that good with scepter so , with Staff a mixed approch ( power and condi ) works much better but if you find good players , for me condi mirage is not that op. Also in wvw where you can use perplexity runes and dire, i prefer an hybrid setup .

 

This is mostly about PVP, so no Vipers and stuff. :wink: In WvW it's a different story, but in PVP most condi mirages run sage or carrion. So, yes, also kinda hybrid, but the focus is clearly on condi damage. Most play with ineptitude for the extra blind + confusion.

 

Apart from that there are actually a lot of variations, staff, scepter, sword, axe, the traitlines... a lot is actually somehow viable and playable, depending on the role you want to fullfill and how tanky you want to be against power or condis. I actually wish every class had the variability condi mirage has. Problem is... it is still a bit op overall. :tongue: Even though boonbeast, holo and all the others feel too strong for too little effort too. I'd still like to **nerf them all**! :lol:

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"allias.1420" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"incisorr.9502"

> > Yes but the top of the leaderboards doesn't exactly represent any fair play and/or real demonstration of class performance in real matches either. We can all pretend that match manipulation isn't REAL but it is and there is no coincidence that "every time", might I stress "every time" I have had a match against a top 10 player this season, I mysteriously get a DC on my team. "every time"

> >

> > Why is it happening? Well streaming seems to be linked to all of the obvious win trading I've seen this season. I'm pretty sure what is left of the win trading community is just predominantly about commercial interests via twitch. It's real simple to understand "no one wants to watch a loser." <- It's true, I know it's true, they know it's true, although it's hush to ever discuss these things publicly for obvious reasons. It's whatever in my book at this point, but don't you dare even act like that kitten is real and use it as a sword while discussing class balance. I mean it's no different of an incentive than flooding a twitch chat with a load of bots that randomly talk about random things for 6 hours while someone is streaming, to make it look active. They do what they have to do to remain noticed, I get it. Not saying all of them, but a lot of them do. Just don't bring that fake kitten in as a sword into real discussions. It isn't right and it's embarrassing.

>

> Hahahaha. Who on earth wants to wintrade to be noticed on twitch? GW2 pvp in twitch gets people like 50 viewers if that? People don't want to watch that kitten whether they win or lose lmao

>

>

 

It's more like 700 to 900 viewers at any given point in time of day. That's still a lot of possible subscriptions for the guys left who are trying hard. And they get sort of pigeonholed into wintrading because if they are only top 150 whilst some other streamer or two are playing in top 10, who do you think that remaining player base is going to choose to watch?

 

I'm not saying all of them do it but let's face it, it starts to get pretty obvious what's going on when your team is 4v5 "every" time you have some of these guys in a match against you. Honestly, if they had the luxury to come in here and talk so openly about it like I do, they'd probably beg Arenanet to fix this problem so they could play again without having to keep up with the fake rat race. It's got to feel bad after awhile. But you've got to understand that the incentive here is all twitch based "for most of them at least". There is actual USD involved in this stuff and any time real money is on the table, people do messed up things to win. Wintrading in a video game is an incredibly small offense compared to the other kinds of nasty things people do to get money, so the truth to this shouldn't surprise you much.

 

@"EUmad.7645" Indeed, Condi Mirage is a Carrion based build. Pretty sure this was mentioned in my OP post.

 

[Spartacus.3192]

I dunno man. I choose who i want to watch on stream not based on their leaderboard ranking but based on how entertaining their channel is or how informative and interactive they are with their viewers.

[Bossun.2046]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> I don't have too many troubles with condi mirage on my holo. But I also run a non-meta Sword/Shield Conversion build. Condi mirages tend to kill themselves trying to hurt me.

 

Yeah, on conversion Holo, Condi mirages just die around me. On Elixer Holo though, they are a really tough 1v1.

[EUmad.7645]

 

> @"EUmad.7645" Indeed, Condi Mirage is a Carrion based build. Pretty sure this was mentioned in my OP post.

>

Carrion is not a pure condi setup. You have also a really good direct damage with sword and staff ambush .... and in my opinion , what makes that build stronger than GS burst is the staff 2 skill ... you can create clone and outplace yourself, it is really a strong strong life saver and gs has nothing similar.

 

[brappish.8715]

> @"Toron.4856" said:

> > @"ZeroTheCat.2684" said:

> > lol what??? How are you complaining about mesmers when there are much more broken classes out there. Look at the Holo kitten! Or the warrior. Every game now 2 holos. and the team without loses. Nice balance Anet. gg.

>

> When u think war and holo r more busted than mirage ur obv a woodtier player that has a l2p issue.

>

> Holo and war both can be outplayed and have weaknesses. Mirage doesn't.

 

Almost every match I join is x2 holo or x2 reaper or x2 ranger lol....MESMER ISNT BROKE..

 

Honestly nerf mesmer to the ground, go ahead, make the clones hit 2 dps, people will still be dying and QQing about it because they just cant figure out the fight. blahblahblah

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"EUmad.7645" said:

>

> > @"EUmad.7645" Indeed, Condi Mirage is a Carrion based build. Pretty sure this was mentioned in my OP post.

> >

> Carrion is not a pure condi setup. You have also a really good direct damage with sword and staff ambush .... and in my opinion , what makes that build stronger than GS burst is the staff 2 skill ... you can create clone and outplace yourself, it is really a strong strong life saver and gs has nothing similar.

>

 

I guess my point is that, I don't think anyone ever thought Carrion was just a condi amulet to begin with my man.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"Spartacus.3192" said:

> I dunno man. I choose who i want to watch on stream not based on their leaderboard ranking but based on how entertaining their channel is or how informative and interactive they are with their viewers.

 

The viewer base reflects a few things though:

* The higher the level of competition, the more entertaining, even if it's just an illusion.

* Informative means nothing if people don't believe the information is coming from a top tier player.

* Interactive properties alone can draw a viewer base, but when a player is both interactive and a top tier player, they will get much more viewer base.

[otto.5684]

> @"Kako.1930" said:

> If a Condi Mesmer loses to anything else 1v1, that's the real l2p issue lol. Winning 1v1 against anything is completely easymode on condi mes unless you've been seriously outplayed. Even after all the nerfs.

 

I have not lost a 1v1 once against condi mirage on core guardian in the last 3-4 month. And that is not cuz I am amazing player (I am okay) and not cuz every mirage I faced is bad. I just 2v1 two condi mirages that I would say were between gold 2 - platinum 1 skill level, yesterday.

[Huskyboy.1053]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"Toron.4856" said:

> > > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > And this here people is why we got power meta now.Condi was cried about for so long, that now condi cleanses are op and people still cry even though not many reliable condi builds in pvp.

> >

> > Most classes don't have enough cleanse to fight condi mirage. The only class having more than enough cleanse to fight condi mirage is guardian and well spellbreaker if u play the tanky d/sh build but everyone plays strength ans tether atm.

> >

> > And yes we have a power meta and 9.9/10 dont want any change.

>

> The following build do well agains mirage in order of effectiveness:

>

> Core guardian

> Holo

> SB (somewhat)

> Soul beast is not bad (as long that you have GS)

> Weaver sword is alright

> Reaper is not bad

> Scourge is also okay

>

> Only rev and thief have limited options against mirage. And not every class must have more than enough cleanses to fight condis. Cuz if that is the case no one will play condi builds.

>

> And the meta currently sucks. We do need more condi viable builds and support builds. Not every kitten build should be a pure power dps, except mirage scourge and FB. We need variety.

 

This is only partly accurate. I'll say where I agree and disagree in regards to **condi** Mirage:

* Core guardian. Agreed, guard wins.

* Holo. Agreed, unless the holo is taking Tools and doesn't take Photon Wall

* Spellbreaker. Disagree, only wins if the SB owns the node, otherwise it's effectively a losing fight. And if the Mirage is challenging SB on the SB's node, the Mirage player is an idiot. We shouldn't be taking into account idiotic plays by the Mirage.

* Soulbeast, disagree. Fails against the Dueling variant, which shuts down longbow pretty hard via Reflect. I would put Soulbeast as a pretty bad matchup except maybe against Viper condi Mirage in a situation where the Soulbeast ganks them, thereby taking out a large amount of health at the beginning of the fight.

* Weaver sword, disagree. Does horribly unless the Mirage stands on point while trying to 1v1. And the only situation in which the Weaver "wins" is if the condi mirage decides to spend 2 mins 1v1ing the Weaver on the Weaver's node. Which is essentially an irrelevant matchup since in that case the Mirage player is an idiot.

* Reaper is trash against the Mirage unless again the Mirage is an idiot and frontloads their entire burst before the Reaper uses their heal. Easy win.

* Scourge, agree, unless the Scourge has minimal shroud. In that case, Mirage wins. Very conditional fight.