Mirage/mesmer is OP?

[ErazorZ.5209]

 

Fair bro. so fair.

[phokus.8934]

Jawgeous is the last person to be saying anything about any class. He's played Holo and had no problems with how broken its sustain was and still complained about Revenants.

 

But like I wrote, no one will be happy unless the Mesmer class is completely gone from this game - no matter how bad they nerf their abilities/traits.

[Solori.6025]

> @"phokus.8934" said:

> Jawgeous is the last person to be saying anything about any class. He's played Holo and had no problems with how broken its sustain was and still complained about Revenants.

>

> But like I wrote, no one will be happy unless the Mesmer class is completely gone from this game - no matter how bad they nerf their abilities/traits.

 

I'm hoping the next elite spec doesn't use clones. Just to see these same people come up with a different reason to hate on mesmer.

"Oh the mesmer doesnt have clones anymore, They are causing visual clutter with butterflies, Anet Plz Nerf"

[Solori.6025]

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > @"ErazorZ.5209" said:

> > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > > > @"ErazorZ.5209" said:

> > > > Nerf everything mesmer. Mirage, Chrono AND mesmer.

> > > >

> > > > The uptime defenses are broken. Anyone stating anything different will need to come with some evidence supporting there claims.

> > > >

> > > > The magical 7 defensives basically make you immune to every sort of attack imaginable 20+ sec of not being able to take damage? and you mesmers still think its fine? lolol.

> > >

> > > Care to explain your numbers? Specifically what single build has all this and, assuming you aren't claiming infinite invulnerability, what period of time/how often "20+ seconds of not being able to take damage" happens? By all means, let's get to the bottom of this.

> > >

> > > > I also see somuch hypocrisy in the mesmer forums. On one hand theyr like 'but this class can do this X and Y' and then you bring up what other classes cant do and there supreme cooldowns 'But we are talking about mesmer'

> > > >

> > > > Theyr asking for buffs to stuff that is normalised, and any nerfs are automatically deemed a l2p issue.

> > > > Then some random mesmer starts QQing about how theyve been 'nerfed' somuch already. Like really? You really think just because your class has been shaved ever so marginally your not supposed to get hit with a balance hammer when your spec is STILL overperforming. (talking about how to presserve something broken)

> > >

> > > Actually, looking through the many--and there are many--"mesmer complaint threads" across the forums, the regular mesmer mains seem quite reasonable. Consistently calling for changes to specific things they freely admit are too much. They do also set the facts straight and seek clarification, like when someone claims mesmers coast along on 20+ seconds of damage immunity.

> > >

> > > > They can **1 shot during dodges**... They are easy to use. And they have **perma uptime defenses**. How can you not see this class is broken?

> > >

> > > Please elaborate on the specific skill/utility combos involved here. Being able to 1-shot during a dodge seems godlike indeed. As do "perma uptime defenses."

> > >

> > > > Oh the glorious days when warriors 6 sec invurn was deemed broken. But ofc mesmer should never be hit ever with the 'powercreep of PoF' and keep there **insane 20+ sec uptime godmode whilst being able to one shot**.

> > >

> > > Again, please elaborate on this.

> > >

> > > > Basically all i see new mesmers do is spam clones. once theyr targetted spam invurn, dodge to condi spam one shot, and blink into stealth. This is the EASIEST class mechanic they have ever introduced for something that has a 20+ sec uptime.

> > >

> > > So easy that all leaderboards are utterly dominated by mesmer specs?

> > >

> > > On a side note, why do you hate mesmers so much? It's as if you were traumatized by one as a young child. :/

> >

> > I think all mesmers should be aware of the magical 7 skills.

> >

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Prestige (3 sec uptime) (30 sec cd)

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blink(30 sec cd)

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phase_Retreat(8sec cd traited)

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blurred_Frenzy(1 sec uptime) (10 sec cd)

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Distortion(1 sec uptime) (50 sec cd) (Distortion + mirage mirror traited +1 uptime) (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reformed_Mirage_Mirror)

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mass_Invisibility(5 sec uptimes) (90sec cd)

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Decoy(3 sec uptime) (40 sec cd)

> >

> >

> > Lets focus on uptimes first. 14seconds of being unable to get hit due to uptime of stealth + invurn + evade

> > Blurred frenzy is off cd after you open with it so add 1 sec to that, phase retreat is off cd aswell.

> >

> > 15 sec of being unable to be hit. +2(+1 from low phase retreat cooldown) teleports.

> > Phase retreat adds ATLEAST 2 seconds of not being able to be hit, every time you use it, due to leap + detarget.

> > phase retreat x2 = 4 seconds.

> >

> > 15+4= 19.

> > blink = 2 seconds ATLEAST aswell

> > 19+2 = 21.

> >

> > If mirage mirror is procced multiple times add 1 sec every proc.

> > add multiple access to dazes (1 sec each)

> >

> > 21+++ sec. of defensive uptimes.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> * "21+++ sec. of defensive uptimes," while quite misleading as you define it above, is still not the same as what you repeated in your previous post: "20+ seconds of not being able to take damage", "20+ seconds of damage immunity", and "insane 20+ sec uptime godmode whilst being able to one shot." Are you changing your original claims?

> * Stealth is not invulnerability. Minus 3 seconds for The Prestige, 5 seconds for Mass Invisibility (which by the way, literally no one uses), and 3 seconds for Decoy.

> * Blink and Phase Retreat offer mobility, not invulnerability or detarget. No different from comparable skills in other professions like [shadowstep](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadowstep "Shadowstep"), and inferior to [swoop](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swoop "Swoop").

> * Speaking of "one shot", you never addressed this: "They can 1 shot during dodges." Feel free to explain.

> * A build comprised of sword/torch + staff has inferior damage output. So if your goal was to assemble an assortment of weapons, traits, and utilities that maybe allow one to run, hide, and do almost no damage, you somewhat succeeded. But seeing as no one plays such a build, it's also pretty irrelevant.

 

I stopped taking him seriously when he linked mass invis

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > Jawgeous is the last person to be saying anything about any class. He's played Holo and had no problems with how broken its sustain was and still complained about Revenants.

> >

> > But like I wrote, no one will be happy unless the Mesmer class is completely gone from this game - no matter how bad they nerf their abilities/traits.

>

> I'm hoping the next elite spec doesn't use clones. Just to see these same people come up with a different reason to hate on mesmer.

> "Oh the mesmer doesnt have clones anymore, They are causing visual clutter with butterflies, Anet Plz Nerf"

It's pink, not fun to play against, nerf pink.

 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"phokus.8934" said:

> Jawgeous is the last person to be saying anything about any class. He's played Holo and had no problems with how broken its sustain was and still complained about Revenants.

>

> But like I wrote, no one will be happy unless the Mesmer class is completely gone from this game - no matter how bad they nerf their abilities/traits.

 

I wrote this on 13 October:

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> Apparently is op until someone plays it.

> Yesterday I was watching a stream, I never watch these but a friend told me the streamer had insides concerning incoming nerfs.

> The streamer rolled a mirage, got into a pvp match while exclaming even a monkey could play mirage.

> Match over, 5 deaths 2 kills

 

I was actually referring to jawgeous.

 

Everyone spamming his video is as clueless as he is regarding mesmer.

It takes less than a minute on the video to figure out he has no idea about mesmer.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

So I watched the jawgeous vid people are spamming and took a peak at his channel. I found his "beginner's guide to PvP" well made and informative.

 

But his mesmer rant feels like it's for the views. It panders to a populist sentiment among the community, fueling an ongoing mob mentality while offering nothing constructive. Mesmer haters will lap it up because it pleases their worldview. When in fact, one could recite the tooltips for almost any meta build in a ragey, expletive-ridden rant and make it sound broken.

 

Yes, it was a rant, not a talking point. But that is why people shouldn't be citing it as if it means anything.

 

_Edit: word choice_

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

> @"ErazorZ.5209" said:

> Lol everyone who has watched the video and says its false what he says.

>

> The skills he is naming is literally factually what they do. You can say all you want about 'not having a clue' on mesmer. The facts are presented that is it. He isnt playing the class he is comparing it to other classes. What it does.

>

> This has nothing to do with 'knowing' howto play said class, its literally theoretical analysis,

> Comparing side by side what a condi mesmers DPS output is in terms of raw POWER. How many of the mesmer skills do 3 things at a time when other classes actually need to press multiple buttons and still dont have that sort of damage output.

>

> how over the top mesmer is in general. He is basically proclaiming that. And people who play mesmer here want to pretend the facts are not worth looking at? Wat?

>

> Just admit it, you dont want you favourite carry class to be nerfed to normal standardized levels. You want it to be Overpowered. You need it to be overpowered else you cant play the game anymore in the way you want to play it, Effortless.

>

> you arent afraid of disastrous nerfs at all, you are afraid it will become fair and you go back to losing a bunch because your class doesnt auto carry you anymore.

>

> **Most of you people here cant even discuss normally.** You are basically pretending anyone who says anything negative about mesmer is not worth listening to, yet YOU are the one who isnt worth listening to. **You come with 0 factual evidence on why certain things are the way they are.** And you pretend you are above them, when infact you are trying to keep something broken from being fixed. **You dont actually try to go indepth about certain topics. Its just 'i am not talking to this person anymore because he said something i dont like'** 'learn to play' or literally **blatantly outright say what is being said is a lie, without actually covering WHY its a lie**.

>

> **You mesmers come with no arguments** every time you are being pointed out the broken stuff in your class.

>

>

 

Are you sure you don't have that backwards?

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/802246#Comment_802246

 

You've posted several times in the mesmer-complaint threads since that post and have yet to respond to it. ;)

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"ErazorZ.5209" said:

> Lol everyone who has watched the video and says its false what he says.

>

> The skills he is naming is literally factually what they do. You can say all you want about 'not having a clue' on mesmer. The facts are presented that is it. He isnt playing the class he is comparing it to other classes. What it does.

>

> This has nothing to do with 'knowing' howto play said class, its literally theoretical analysis,

> Comparing side by side what a condi mesmers DPS output is in terms of raw POWER. How many of the mesmer skills do 3 things at a time when other classes actually need to press multiple buttons and still dont have that sort of damage output.

>

> how over the top mesmer is in general. He is basically proclaiming that. And people who play mesmer here want to pretend the facts are not worth looking at? Wat?

>

> Just admit it, you dont want you favourite carry class to be nerfed to normal standardized levels. You want it to be Overpowered. You need it to be overpowered else you cant play the game anymore in the way you want to play it, Effortless.

>

> you arent afraid of disastrous nerfs at all, you are afraid it will become fair and you go back to losing a bunch because your class doesnt auto carry you anymore.

>

> Most of you people here cant even discuss normally. You are basically pretending anyone who says anything negative about mesmer is not worth listening to, yet YOU are the one who isnt worth listening to. You come with 0 factual evidence on why certain things are the way they are. And you pretend you are above them, when infact you are trying to keep something broken from being fixed. You dont actually try to go indepth about certain topics. Its just 'i am not talking to this person anymore because he said something i dont like' 'learn to play' or literally blatantly outright say what is being said is a lie, without actually covering WHY its a lie.

>

> You mesmers come with no arguments every time you are being pointed out the broken stuff in your class.

>

>

 

> @"ErazorZ.5209" said:

> Lol everyone who has watched the video and says its false what he says.

>

> The skills he is naming is literally factually what they do. You can say all you want about 'not having a clue' on mesmer. The facts are presented that is it. He isnt playing the class he is comparing it to other classes. What it does.

>

> This has nothing to do with 'knowing' howto play said class, its literally theoretical analysis,

> Comparing side by side what a condi mesmers DPS output is in terms of raw POWER. How many of the mesmer skills do 3 things at a time when other classes actually need to press multiple buttons and still dont have that sort of damage output.

>

> how over the top mesmer is in general. He is basically proclaiming that. And people who play mesmer here want to pretend the facts are not worth looking at? Wat?

>

> Just admit it, you dont want you favourite carry class to be nerfed to normal standardized levels. You want it to be Overpowered. You need it to be overpowered else you cant play the game anymore in the way you want to play it, Effortless.

>

> you arent afraid of disastrous nerfs at all, you are afraid it will become fair and you go back to losing a bunch because your class doesnt auto carry you anymore.

>

> Most of you people here cant even discuss normally. You are basically pretending anyone who says anything negative about mesmer is not worth listening to, yet YOU are the one who isnt worth listening to. You come with 0 factual evidence on why certain things are the way they are. And you pretend you are above them, when infact you are trying to keep something broken from being fixed. You dont actually try to go indepth about certain topics. Its just 'i am not talking to this person anymore because he said something i dont like' 'learn to play' or literally blatantly outright say what is being said is a lie, without actually covering WHY its a lie.

>

> You mesmers come with no arguments every time you are being pointed out the broken stuff in your class.

>

>

 

I've watch till the 2 minute mark. As I said in the other thread:

First he complains about sword autos, which no mesmer uses unless its the last resource avaliable.

Then he complains about BF damage which is close to a trash tier skill, it's mainly used for the 1sec evade and 8 attacks in a sec will kill you from retal.

There's a reason sword got dumped in favor of scepter and staff.

 

Hence why I say he had no clue, well both this and his 5 deaths in a row while playing condi mirage.

 

About the broken stuff, mesmers are saying for ages what needs a nerf, you can see it on all nerf mesmer threads. Sadly ANet prefers to listen to you qq'ers, that's the reason the things that really need a fix aren't fixed and you guys still qq. - Well, thinking about it, you kind of deserve it.

[crewthief.8649]

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> So I watched the jawgeous vid people are spamming and took a peak at his channel. I found his "beginner's guide to PvP" well made and informative.

>

> But his mesmer rant feels like it's for the views. It panders to a populist sentiment among the community, fueling an ongoing mob mentality while offering nothing constructive. Mesmer haters will lap it up because it pleases their worldview. When in fact, one could recite the tooltips for almost any meta build in a ragey, expletive-ridden rant and make it sound broken.

>

> Yes, it was a rant, not a talking point. But that is why people shouldn't be citing it as if it means anything.

>

> _Edit: word choice_

 

Discounting his theatrics, he was 100% correct in his analysis that Mirage (particularly condi Mirage) is over-powered. Any statement defending the class (Mirage) as somehow "balanced" is intellectually dishonest. I'm still seeing a lot of "learn to play" and "roll one and play it yourself to figure out how to counter it," and those statements are disingenuous, to put it mildly. There are classes that can deal with a Mirage's condi output, but there isn't really a "counter" to the spec, it kind of does everything. In-combat mobility, multiple defensive options, strong burst, and supreme dis-engage potential. Oh yes, and dodge while CC'd. What is that? On my warrior I land a Skull Crack on a Mirage (the skill is incredibly difficult to land; a true "skill shot"), and he/she just dodges while stunned? Why shouldn't a person be punished for failing to avoid something like that? The spec rewards sub-par play, to be completely honest.

 

[mortrialus.3062]

> @ErazorZ.5209 said:

> Lol everyone who has watched the video and says its false what he says.

>

> The skills he is naming is literally factually what they do. You can say all you want about 'not having a clue' on mesmer. The facts are presented that is it. He isnt playing the class he is comparing it to other classes. What it does.

>

> This has nothing to do with 'knowing' howto play said class, its literally theoretical analysis,

> Comparing side by side what a condi mesmers DPS output is in terms of raw POWER. How many of the mesmer skills do 3 things at a time when other classes actually need to press multiple buttons and still dont have that sort of damage output.

>

> how over the top mesmer is in general. He is basically proclaiming that. And people who play mesmer here want to pretend the facts are not worth looking at? Wat?

>

> Just admit it, you dont want you favourite carry class to be nerfed to normal standardized levels. You want it to be Overpowered. You need it to be overpowered else you cant play the game anymore in the way you want to play it, Effortless.

>

> you arent afraid of disastrous nerfs at all, you are afraid it will become fair and you go back to losing a bunch because your class doesnt auto carry you anymore.

>

> Most of you people here cant even discuss normally. You are basically pretending anyone who says anything negative about mesmer is not worth listening to, yet YOU are the one who isnt worth listening to. You come with 0 factual evidence on why certain things are the way they are. And you pretend you are above them, when infact you are trying to keep something broken from being fixed. You dont actually try to go indepth about certain topics. Its just 'i am not talking to this person anymore because he said something i dont like' 'learn to play' or literally blatantly outright say what is being said is a lie, without actually covering WHY its a lie.

>

> You mesmers come with no arguments every time you are being pointed out the broken stuff in your class.

 

It's not so much what he says is wrong so much as what he says is overblown and misleading.

 

Take him talking about False Oasis, the heal. His points are basically "So it heals, it grants vigor, and it spawns 1 seconds of evade that can cause weakness. WHY?! Why isn't it just enough to heal?!"

 

Nothing about this is false per say, but every heal skill is generally designed to have unique utility. You can just as easily make the exact same point about Engineer heals.

 

Like just pretend I'm doing a good Jawgeous impression here.

 

> "So healing turret, it gives you flat healing on you. It pulses regeneration on you so that's more healing. It automatically overcharges, you don't even have to push a botton anymore because apparently that's too much skill, which gives double the healing and three times the regeneration! And it removes 2 conditions. Why? And the regeneration is AoE so it can help your teammates. And it's a WATER FIELD! Why? Why the fuck is it a water field?! So you can use your Photon Forge 2 and your Rifle 5 for MORE HEALING?! Is this not enough healing Arenanet?! Oh....oooohhh my god. And it's a blast finisher on it's own in it's own water field and it does damage! DAMAGE! On a heal skill! That's 1.5k damage on a 0 toughness target! When is it enough Arenanet?! When it it enough for a heal skill Arenanet?! Phew.... oh my god man...."

 

So yeah nothing he says is WRONG per say, but he over blows the value of a lot of it, and acts like any skill doing more than one thing is unfair even when other classes frequently have loads and loads more bloat and utility in the same slots. And you can basically do the same thing with literally every class and every skill.

 

Like even Rifle Autoattack when he points out looks pretty lame, you can use that kind of arguing to sound over powered.

 

> "So it's 1200 range which is almost as long as it gets. it does 500 flat damage which on demolisher's will crit for 1.2k for 56% chance. And it PIECES! It's 5 target! So you go into a fight and you're cleaving for 5k, 3k, 3k, 4k, 2k, over and over and over again. Like let's compare to demolisher warrior rifle for a second. It's basically the same amount of damage but it doesn't piece. When is it enough Arenanet?! Why does Engineer rifle need to be cleaving FIVE TARGETS! Phew... oh my god man..."

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

> @"crewthief.8649" said:

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > So I watched the jawgeous vid people are spamming and took a peak at his channel. I found his "beginner's guide to PvP" well made and informative.

> >

> > But his mesmer rant feels like it's for the views. It panders to a populist sentiment among the community, fueling an ongoing mob mentality while offering nothing constructive. Mesmer haters will lap it up because it pleases their worldview. When in fact, one could recite the tooltips for almost any meta build in a ragey, expletive-ridden rant and make it sound broken.

> >

> > Yes, it was a rant, not a talking point. But that is why people shouldn't be citing it as if it means anything.

> >

> > _Edit: word choice_

>

> Discounting his theatrics, he was 100% correct in his analysis that Mirage (particularly condi Mirage) is over-powered.

 

Reciting tool tips and generally griping about how much is present isn't exactly analysis, let alone proof positive that a spec is OP. As I said, and as @"mortrialus.3062" demonstrates quite well in the post above, one can make an overblown rant for most any spec, which newcomers and low information players alike will take as gospel.

 

Among other things, what informs a discussion of balance are:

* The skills, traits, and utilities that are _actually_ played - jawgeous spends a lot of time on sword which isn't common, and @"ErazorZ.5209"'s post quoted [here](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/802246#Comment_802246 "here") is a prime example of cherry picking a random assortment of things, many of which no one uses, to make a grossly exaggerated point;

* What combos and abilities are available from those skills, traits, and utilities; and

* Whether there are similar abilities and counterplay among other specs in the game.

 

These are all issues on which reasonable minds might differ, but one objective measure of performance is the PvP leaderboards, where I hear mesmers are far from dominating. Rather, there are far more varieties of rangers, engineers, and others.

 

> Any statement defending the class (Mirage) as somehow "balanced" is intellectually dishonest.

 

No. It is a different opinion, and nothing more. Just like any statement claiming that the class is unbalanced.

 

> I'm still seeing a lot of "learn to play" and "roll one and play it yourself to figure out how to counter it," and those statements are disingenuous, to put it mildly.

 

Disingenuous or not, there is validity to those statements. There is an element of "learn to play" in facing any type of opponent. This all but requires rolling other specs in order to understand their abilities and recognize their animations.

 

> There are classes that can deal with a Mirage's condi output, but there isn't really a "counter" to the spec, it kind of does everything.

 

Some would beg to differ. From "[is there any sort of counter to condi mirage?](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/797604#Comment_797604 "Is there any sort of counter to condi mirage?")":

 

> @"Ansau.7326" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > A unkillable spec that loses against sd thief, soulbeast and stalls against fb, ele, mesmer with inspiration and holos, and 0 capabilities to hold a point.

>

> Fixed.

 

The "unkillable spec" sarcastically referred to there is, of course, condi-mirage.

 

> Oh yes, and dodge while CC'd. What is that? On my warrior I land a Skull Crack on a Mirage (the skill is incredibly difficult to land; a true "skill shot"), and he/she just dodges while stunned? Why shouldn't a person be punished for failing to avoid something like that?

 

Many mesmer regulars in this forum agree that is too much. In fact, I haven't seen anyone defend it. Really, if you comb through the many, many mesmer complaint discussions floating around, you should see there are far more mesmer players admitting things that could be shaved or toned down than outright saying everything's perfect.

 

> The spec rewards sub-par play, to be completely honest.

 

Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. If it does, it's hardly the only one. See Ranger.

[ErazorZ.5209]

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > @"crewthief.8649" said:

> > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > > So I watched the jawgeous vid people are spamming and took a peak at his channel. I found his "beginner's guide to PvP" well made and informative.

> > >

> > > But his mesmer rant feels like it's for the views. It panders to a populist sentiment among the community, fueling an ongoing mob mentality while offering nothing constructive. Mesmer haters will lap it up because it pleases their worldview. When in fact, one could recite the tooltips for almost any meta build in a ragey, expletive-ridden rant and make it sound broken.

> > >

> > > Yes, it was a rant, not a talking point. But that is why people shouldn't be citing it as if it means anything.

> > >

> > > _Edit: word choice_

> >

> > Discounting his theatrics, he was 100% correct in his analysis that Mirage (particularly condi Mirage) is over-powered.

>

> Reciting tool tips and generally griping about how much is present isn't exactly analysis, let alone proof positive that a spec is OP. As I said, and as @"mortrialus.3062" demonstrates quite well in the post above, one can make an overblown rant for most any spec, which newcomers and low information players alike will take as gospel.

>

> Among other things, what informs a discussion of balance are:

> * The skills, traits, and utilities that are _actually_ played - jawgeous spends a lot of time on sword which isn't common, and @"ErazorZ.5209"'s post quoted [here](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/802246#Comment_802246 "here") is a prime example of cherry picking a random assortment of things, many of which no one uses, to make a grossly exaggerated point;

> * What combos and abilities are available from those skills, traits, and utilities; and

> * Whether there are similar abilities and counterplay among other specs in the game.

>

> These are all issues on which reasonable minds might differ, but one objective measure of performance is the PvP leaderboards, where I hear mesmers are far from dominating. Rather, there are far more varieties of rangers, engineers, and others.

>

> > Any statement defending the class (Mirage) as somehow "balanced" is intellectually dishonest.

>

> No. It is a different opinion, and nothing more. Just like any statement claiming that the class is unbalanced.

>

> > I'm still seeing a lot of "learn to play" and "roll one and play it yourself to figure out how to counter it," and those statements are disingenuous, to put it mildly.

>

> Disingenuous or not, there is validity to those statements. There is an element of "learn to play" in facing any type of opponent. This all but requires rolling other specs in order to understand their abilities and recognize their animations.

>

> > There are classes that can deal with a Mirage's condi output, but there isn't really a "counter" to the spec, it kind of does everything.

>

> Some would beg to differ. From "[is there any sort of counter to condi mirage?](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/797604#Comment_797604 "Is there any sort of counter to condi mirage?")":

>

> > @"Ansau.7326" said:

> > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > A unkillable spec that loses against sd thief, soulbeast and stalls against fb, ele, mesmer with inspiration and holos, and 0 capabilities to hold a point.

> >

> > Fixed.

>

> The "unkillable spec" sarcastically referred to there is, of course, condi-mirage.

>

> > Oh yes, and dodge while CC'd. What is that? On my warrior I land a Skull Crack on a Mirage (the skill is incredibly difficult to land; a true "skill shot"), and he/she just dodges while stunned? Why shouldn't a person be punished for failing to avoid something like that?

>

> Many mesmer regulars in this forum agree that is too much. In fact, I haven't seen anyone defend it. Really, if you comb through the many, many mesmer complaint discussions floating around, you should see there are far more mesmer players admitting things that could be shaved or toned down than outright saying everything's perfect.

>

> > The spec rewards sub-par play, to be completely honest.

>

> Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. If it does, it's hardly the only one. See Ranger.

 

The fact is mesmer is broken. I literally just played a chrono, perma defensives up with high health pool yet still has the ability to spam defensives, stealth, and ofc spam condis that one shot if you are out of condi clears.

 

Mesmer is broken to the core levels. You can say all you want about my 'underutilized' skills thread. the facts remain those skills are infact busted.

 

Trying to run away from a mesmer? nope. Just use one of many teleports. You think you finally got a mesmer when he just bursted out of cooldowns? Nope. multiple defensives ensue. After fighting for over 10 secs you think the defensives are finally gone. whoop there he bursts again and teleports away. Rinse and repeat. This is unhealthy unfun gameplay. And most of all UNFAIR to anyone who is legitimatly a better player.

 

The idea that you are trying to denounce what i am saying because it is 'under utilized' is just another way to pretend those skills dont exist and mesmer IS fine. It isnt.

 

The only way howto defeat a mesmer is to go to a point where it isnt at. Funfact. i did that last game. Suddenly everyone of the enemy team just dies straight up to my bursts and we get a HUGE lead (i even get in a 1v2 setting but because the skillevel i am playing at is so low i even get to kill one). Then i decide to try and fight the mesmer. Guess what. team is auto losing again, then mesmer proceeds to focus me, auto loss.

 

This has nothing to do with skills. He was basically just spamming his defensives when his clones put some condis on me and i auto die because i cannot forever condi clear. I cannot burst him down because he has his defensives up. He doesnt even need to attack me. I cannot run away because he has supreme mobility with his teleports and the stealth makes it so i cant even see where he is at.

 

Not to forget my burst isnt a sustain dps. its a burst with higher cooldowns then the mesmer has access to defensives. My burst also requires me to atleast press a combo of atleast 7 buttons in a short timeframe of less then a second. Within that timeframe i have to see if the first hit actually hits (aka him not using defensives)to proceed with the burst. I have to react according to his teleports wich is basically just another dodge if used 'offensively', i have to make sure i dont get bursted down by seeing clones moving towards me, i also have to keep him targetted. I have to maintain the condi damage of the clones when they arent bursting. And this all in a timeframe of less then a second i have to make these calls, while he is just rotating through his defensives and presses his burst as he pleases? Like wat?

 

Best part; when the season just started and i didnt see many mesmers i climbed to plat 2. After seeing 2 mesmers basically every game when ppl figured out it was broken, tanked down to gold 2. And even now i am playing 1/2 games a day max. i can honestly say 80% of those games are with atleast 2 mesmers on either side but most of the time 2 on enemy side and 1/2 on my side. 80% of the time.

 

Stating that there arent many mesmers in top 200 is also one of those false flags 'facts'. People at the top also have mains they play with, they might have an array of options to counteract compositions and builds of the enemies, but that doesnt mean they arent 'best' with the mains and thats why u see those classes at the top200. Added to that rotational awareness at the top IS topnotch. People watch there minimaps. They (should) understand when they can rotate and support. Hold points etc. At any lower level this is NOT the case.

Mesmer shine in 1v1's because they basically autowin 1v1's. In a high ranked game people know when to 2v1 versus mesmers to completely shut it down. At higher levels they dont ALLOW mesmers to 1v1 because they know its broken. They also know howto focus fire. In low-mid tier leagues this is NOT the case. Making mesmers exponentially stronger. You know what would be fun to find out? How many mesmers are active in gold-plat tier. I am betting its atleast 30% of the playerbase at that level. (and yes 30% condi mirage IS an extreme amount when you have 9 classes)

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"ErazorZ.5209" said:

> Best part; when the season just started and i didnt see many mesmers i climbed to plat 2. After seeing 2 mesmers basically every game when ppl figured out it was broken, tanked down to gold 2. And even now i am playing 1/2 games a day max. i can honestly say 80% of those games are with atleast 2 mesmers on either side but most of the time 2 on enemy side and 1/2 on my side. 80% of the time.

Even better part: this means that the side with more mesmers loose over 50% of the time, or you wouldnt even be able to maintain gold.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Holy kitten that's a lot of text. Thankfully I stopped reading at "mesmer is broken to the core levels".

Mesmer one of the few professions that doesn't have any viable core builds.

[Artaz.3819]

^^ Correct, Mesmer is not the issue, Mirage is. Kind of like Deadeye, Firebrand, Soulbeast, etc. See a pattern? Just assume when people are talking about a class that it is the PoF elite since every single profession (outside maybe core Warrior, aka ANet's noob friendly option) is basically forced to play PoF or you immediately admit you are nerfing yourself.

 

Mirage in PvP is still up with the length/frames of dodge, mobility/burst and pressure and a certain [trait](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Auspicious_Anguish "trait") or two being OP. Mirage in WvW and PvE is laughably OP and that's what most people are referring to.

[crewthief.8649]

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > @"crewthief.8649" said:

> > > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > > So I watched the jawgeous vid people are spamming and took a peak at his channel. I found his "beginner's guide to PvP" well made and informative.

> > >

> > > But his mesmer rant feels like it's for the views. It panders to a populist sentiment among the community, fueling an ongoing mob mentality while offering nothing constructive. Mesmer haters will lap it up because it pleases their worldview. When in fact, one could recite the tooltips for almost any meta build in a ragey, expletive-ridden rant and make it sound broken.

> > >

> > > Yes, it was a rant, not a talking point. But that is why people shouldn't be citing it as if it means anything.

> > >

> > > _Edit: word choice_

> >

> > Discounting his theatrics, he was 100% correct in his analysis that Mirage (particularly condi Mirage) is over-powered.

>

> Reciting tool tips and generally griping about how much is present isn't exactly analysis, let alone proof positive that a spec is OP. As I said, and as @"mortrialus.3062" demonstrates quite well in the post above, one can make an overblown rant for most any spec, which newcomers and low information players alike will take as gospel.

>

> Among other things, what informs a discussion of balance are:

> * The skills, traits, and utilities that are _actually_ played - jawgeous spends a lot of time on sword which isn't common, and @"ErazorZ.5209"'s post quoted [here](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/802246#Comment_802246 "here") is a prime example of cherry picking a random assortment of things, many of which no one uses, to make a grossly exaggerated point;

> * What combos and abilities are available from those skills, traits, and utilities; and

> * Whether there are similar abilities and counterplay among other specs in the game.

>

> These are all issues on which reasonable minds might differ, but one objective measure of performance is the PvP leaderboards, where I hear mesmers are far from dominating. Rather, there are far more varieties of rangers, engineers, and others.

>

> > Any statement defending the class (Mirage) as somehow "balanced" is intellectually dishonest.

>

> No. It is a different opinion, and nothing more. Just like any statement claiming that the class is unbalanced.

>

> > I'm still seeing a lot of "learn to play" and "roll one and play it yourself to figure out how to counter it," and those statements are disingenuous, to put it mildly.

>

> Disingenuous or not, there is validity to those statements. There is an element of "learn to play" in facing any type of opponent. This all but requires rolling other specs in order to understand their abilities and recognize their animations.

>

> > There are classes that can deal with a Mirage's condi output, but there isn't really a "counter" to the spec, it kind of does everything.

>

> Some would beg to differ. From "[is there any sort of counter to condi mirage?](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/797604#Comment_797604 "Is there any sort of counter to condi mirage?")":

>

> > @"Ansau.7326" said:

> > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > A unkillable spec that loses against sd thief, soulbeast and stalls against fb, ele, mesmer with inspiration and holos, and 0 capabilities to hold a point.

> >

> > Fixed.

>

> The "unkillable spec" sarcastically referred to there is, of course, condi-mirage.

>

> > Oh yes, and dodge while CC'd. What is that? On my warrior I land a Skull Crack on a Mirage (the skill is incredibly difficult to land; a true "skill shot"), and he/she just dodges while stunned? Why shouldn't a person be punished for failing to avoid something like that?

>

> Many mesmer regulars in this forum agree that is too much. In fact, I haven't seen anyone defend it. Really, if you comb through the many, many mesmer complaint discussions floating around, you should see there are far more mesmer players admitting things that could be shaved or toned down than outright saying everything's perfect.

>

> > The spec rewards sub-par play, to be completely honest.

>

> Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. If it does, it's hardly the only one. See Ranger.

 

So, you go to great lengths to quote my post and disagree throughout, and then in your last sentence state that you (among several other Mesmer players) agree there are aspects that need to be toned down? Am I getting that right? I stand by my assertion, and nothing contained within your reply changes that.

 

[ErazorZ.5209]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"ErazorZ.5209" said:

> > Best part; when the season just started and i didnt see many mesmers i climbed to plat 2. After seeing 2 mesmers basically every game when ppl figured out it was broken, tanked down to gold 2. And even now i am playing 1/2 games a day max. i can honestly say 80% of those games are with atleast 2 mesmers on either side but most of the time 2 on enemy side and 1/2 on my side. 80% of the time.

> Even better part: this means that the side with more mesmers loose over 50% of the time, or you wouldnt even be able to maintain gold.

 

If i can steamroll every proffesion with ease on the level i am playing at except mesmer. How is that fine again? These people dont even know howto rotate or dodge key skills. Yet mesmers keep me locked there because of there ease of play.

 

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> Holy kitten that's a lot of text. Thankfully I stopped reading at "mesmer is broken to the core levels".

> Mesmer one of the few professions that doesn't have any viable core builds.

 

Well you seem to miss the point this is a forum. If you dont want to read, why are you on a forum? i dont understand why posts like yours dont get removed for being insulting while saying nothing at the same time.

 

> @"Artaz.3819" said:

> ^^ Correct, Mesmer is not the issue, Mirage is. Kind of like Deadeye, Firebrand, Soulbeast, etc. See a pattern? Just assume when people are talking about a class that it is the PoF elite since every single profession (outside maybe core Warrior, aka ANet's noob friendly option) is basically forced to play PoF or you immediately admit you are nerfing yourself.

>

> Mirage in PvP is still up with the length/frames of dodge, mobility/burst and pressure and a certain [trait](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Auspicious_Anguish "trait") or two being OP. Mirage in WvW and PvE is laughably OP and that's what most people are referring to.

 

Except the core issue with mirage IS mesmer. Do you think a powercreep of this magnitude was possible when the core spec is bad?

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"ErazorZ.5209" said:

> Well you seem to miss the point this is a forum. If you dont want to read, why are you on a forum? i dont understand why posts like yours dont get removed for being insulting while saying nothing at the same time.

>

 

Oh but I do like to read, text with good content that is.

Where was I insulting? By saying your entire premise is wrong because core mesmer is trash? Prove me wrong link me a competitive core mesmer build.

[ErazorZ.5209]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"ErazorZ.5209" said:

> > Well you seem to miss the point this is a forum. If you dont want to read, why are you on a forum? i dont understand why posts like yours dont get removed for being insulting while saying nothing at the same time.

> >

>

> Oh but I do like to read, text with good content that is.

> Where was I insulting? By saying your entire premise is wrong because core mesmer is trash? Prove me wrong link me a competitive core mesmer build.

 

"Text with good content" is basically stating what i have typed is not good content. Wich is an insult.

 

There is no core mesmer competetive build because Mirage is basically pure power creeped. Mirage is too strong. We all know that by now. So why bother playing a core mesmer build wich does less?

That however does not mean the core build is weak. It just means the core build is overshadowed by something thats broken. if Mirage is properly nerfed to current core levels you will automatically start seeing allot more mesmers playing core again.

[phokus.8934]

> @"ErazorZ.5209" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > @"ErazorZ.5209" said:

> > > Well you seem to miss the point this is a forum. If you dont want to read, why are you on a forum? i dont understand why posts like yours dont get removed for being insulting while saying nothing at the same time.

> > >

> >

> > Oh but I do like to read, text with good content that is.

> > Where was I insulting? By saying your entire premise is wrong because core mesmer is trash? Prove me wrong link me a competitive core mesmer build.

>

> "Text with good content" is basically stating what i have typed is not good content. Wich is an insult.

>

> There is no core mesmer competetive build because Mirage is basically pure power creeped. Mirage is too strong. We all know that by now. So why bother playing a core mesmer build wich does less?

> That however does not mean the core build is weak. It just means the core build is overshadowed by something thats broken. if Mirage is properly nerfed to current core levels you will automatically start seeing allot more mesmers playing core again.

Haha what? Learn to take criticism even in the form of non descriptive text.

 

*a lot and not allot

 

There’s no core Mesmer build because core just isn’t good compared to Chrono or Mirage. Take for example Guardian. Core Guard completely outshines DH and can arguablely be on or with FB.

 

I’ll even go as far as saying the “problem” with Mesmer is that our traitlines all have play somewhere and provide good value for different play styles.

 

How many classes are essentially pigeonholed?

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"ErazorZ.5209" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > @"ErazorZ.5209" said:

> > > Well you seem to miss the point this is a forum. If you dont want to read, why are you on a forum? i dont understand why posts like yours dont get removed for being insulting while saying nothing at the same time.

> > >

> >

> > Oh but I do like to read, text with good content that is.

> > Where was I insulting? By saying your entire premise is wrong because core mesmer is trash? Prove me wrong link me a competitive core mesmer build.

>

> "Text with good content" is basically stating what i have typed is not good content. Wich is an insult.

>

> There is no core mesmer competetive build because Mirage is basically pure power creeped. Mirage is too strong. We all know that by now. So why bother playing a core mesmer build wich does less?

> That however does not mean the core build is weak. It just means the core build is overshadowed by something thats broken. if Mirage is properly nerfed to current core levels you will automatically start seeing allot more mesmers playing core again.

 

Core Mesmer isn't played since Chrono was released.

Core mesmer wasn't even viable for time periods on core game, and when it was viable it was only due to portal.

[Skada.1362]

All this ignorant moaning about how OP Axe/Staff Condi mirage is just gonna make Anet kill Power Mirage for some reason, bet your house on it!

[ErazorZ.5209]

> @"phokus.8934" said:

> > @"ErazorZ.5209" said:

> > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > > @"ErazorZ.5209" said:

> > > > Well you seem to miss the point this is a forum. If you dont want to read, why are you on a forum? i dont understand why posts like yours dont get removed for being insulting while saying nothing at the same time.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Oh but I do like to read, text with good content that is.

> > > Where was I insulting? By saying your entire premise is wrong because core mesmer is trash? Prove me wrong link me a competitive core mesmer build.

> >

> > "Text with good content" is basically stating what i have typed is not good content. Wich is an insult.

> >

> > There is no core mesmer competetive build because Mirage is basically pure power creeped. Mirage is too strong. We all know that by now. So why bother playing a core mesmer build wich does less?

> > That however does not mean the core build is weak. It just means the core build is overshadowed by something thats broken. if Mirage is properly nerfed to current core levels you will automatically start seeing allot more mesmers playing core again.

> Haha what? Learn to take criticism even in the form of non descriptive text.

>

> *a lot and not allot

>

> There’s no core Mesmer build because core just isn’t good compared to Chrono or Mirage. Take for example Guardian. Core Guard completely outshines DH and can arguablely be on or with FB.

>

> I’ll even go as far as saying the “problem” with Mesmer is that our traitlines all have play somewhere and provide good value for different play styles.

>

> How many classes are essentially pigeonholed?

 

Critisism is fine. He didnt read so how can he critisise?

 

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"ErazorZ.5209" said:

> > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > > @"ErazorZ.5209" said:

> > > > Well you seem to miss the point this is a forum. If you dont want to read, why are you on a forum? i dont understand why posts like yours dont get removed for being insulting while saying nothing at the same time.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Oh but I do like to read, text with good content that is.

> > > Where was I insulting? By saying your entire premise is wrong because core mesmer is trash? Prove me wrong link me a competitive core mesmer build.

> >

> > "Text with good content" is basically stating what i have typed is not good content. Wich is an insult.

> >

> > There is no core mesmer competetive build because Mirage is basically pure power creeped. Mirage is too strong. We all know that by now. So why bother playing a core mesmer build wich does less?

> > That however does not mean the core build is weak. It just means the core build is overshadowed by something thats broken. if Mirage is properly nerfed to current core levels you will automatically start seeing allot more mesmers playing core again.

>

> Core Mesmer isn't played since Chrono was released.

> Core mesmer wasn't even viable for time periods on core game, and when it was viable it was only due to portal.

 

 

Yes because with mesmer the elite specs are pure powercreeped. I remember however shatter mesmer in core where not too common but once played right extremely powerfull, OP af in the right hands... They had so many 'bugs' mesmers used to enhance gameplay. Moa was extremely powerfull aswell. They where actually a hard class to master back then but one of the only true duelist in the game that if played correctly could beat any other class. In proffesional settings helseth comes to mind and the likes. Dont pretend mesmer in core wasnt top tier. You could almost argue they where on par with thieves that where required because of there high mobility to decap and contest far.

 

 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"ErazorZ.5209" said:

> > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > > @"ErazorZ.5209" said:

> > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > > > @"ErazorZ.5209" said:

> > > > > Well you seem to miss the point this is a forum. If you dont want to read, why are you on a forum? i dont understand why posts like yours dont get removed for being insulting while saying nothing at the same time.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Oh but I do like to read, text with good content that is.

> > > > Where was I insulting? By saying your entire premise is wrong because core mesmer is trash? Prove me wrong link me a competitive core mesmer build.

> > >

> > > "Text with good content" is basically stating what i have typed is not good content. Wich is an insult.

> > >

> > > There is no core mesmer competetive build because Mirage is basically pure power creeped. Mirage is too strong. We all know that by now. So why bother playing a core mesmer build wich does less?

> > > That however does not mean the core build is weak. It just means the core build is overshadowed by something thats broken. if Mirage is properly nerfed to current core levels you will automatically start seeing allot more mesmers playing core again.

> > Haha what? Learn to take criticism even in the form of non descriptive text.

> >

> > *a lot and not allot

> >

> > There’s no core Mesmer build because core just isn’t good compared to Chrono or Mirage. Take for example Guardian. Core Guard completely outshines DH and can arguablely be on or with FB.

> >

> > I’ll even go as far as saying the “problem” with Mesmer is that our traitlines all have play somewhere and provide good value for different play styles.

> >

> > How many classes are essentially pigeonholed?

>

> Critisism is fine. He didnt read so how can he critisise?

>

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > @"ErazorZ.5209" said:

> > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > > > @"ErazorZ.5209" said:

> > > > > Well you seem to miss the point this is a forum. If you dont want to read, why are you on a forum? i dont understand why posts like yours dont get removed for being insulting while saying nothing at the same time.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Oh but I do like to read, text with good content that is.

> > > > Where was I insulting? By saying your entire premise is wrong because core mesmer is trash? Prove me wrong link me a competitive core mesmer build.

> > >

> > > "Text with good content" is basically stating what i have typed is not good content. Wich is an insult.

> > >

> > > There is no core mesmer competetive build because Mirage is basically pure power creeped. Mirage is too strong. We all know that by now. So why bother playing a core mesmer build wich does less?

> > > That however does not mean the core build is weak. It just means the core build is overshadowed by something thats broken. if Mirage is properly nerfed to current core levels you will automatically start seeing allot more mesmers playing core again.

> >

> > Core Mesmer isn't played since Chrono was released.

> > Core mesmer wasn't even viable for time periods on core game, and when it was viable it was only due to portal.

>

>

> Yes because with mesmer the elite specs are pure powercreeped. I remember however shatter mesmer in core where not too common but once played right extremely powerfull, OP af in the right hands... They had so many 'bugs' mesmers used to enhance gameplay. Moa was extremely powerfull aswell. They where actually a hard class to master back then but one of the only true duelist in the game that if played correctly could beat any other class. In proffesional settings helseth comes to mind and the likes. Dont pretend mesmer in core wasnt top tier. You could almost argue they where on par with thieves that where required because of there high mobility to decap and contest far.

>

>

 

Thief did everything that mesmer did but better, the only reason for picking it up was portal. They weren't even on par, thieves always predated on mesmers, the only time it wasn't the case (pu buff) it was hotfixed.

Core Power Mesmer was and still a one trick pony glass cannon, highly susceptible to condis, cc, with low sustain damage and low sustain.

In any profession you can mention players who are awesome at it, helseth, azani, supcutie on mesmer case or more recently jazz and thalia, this doesn't mean the class is op.