About our Policy on RMT

[thrag.9740]

> @"Lumpy.8760" said:

> > @"Xaina.5418" said:

> > @"Gaile Gray.6029"

> >

> > I'm the victim of this RMT scam. A person asked a RMT gold seller to send the RMT gold to my account to actually achieve his goal to get me banned.

> > Ticket ID: 7123881 and 7124085

> >

> > More details of what happened: https://i.imgur.com/Ke76Y3W.jpg

> >

> > Can you please take a look into this issue and tell me if the red flag of RMT purchase is going to be removed from my account? I never did RMT and I never will. I'm a GW1 player for over 11 years and a GW2 player for over 6,5 years since the very first beta. I paid thousands of EUR over the past 6 years on gems/gemstore but I never did RMT.

>

> You accepted the gold. That's an instant flag. Doesn't matter if you're going to "send it back" you are not innocent in this situation. There was no reason to respond to that account; They were just following a money order from someone who put in your account/character name.

 

As per the outlined page above they did as they were told, 'return it'. That page doesn't say it has to be by pressing the, 'return to sender' button, it just says return it, which OP did.

 

Additionally if you examine the order of events, youll see OP was actually suppose to accept the gold from their mail, as the gold had already been taken from their account (if you believe the reddit post): https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/9t3w4u/gaile_gray_addresses_the_rmt_policy_on_the_forums/e8toid7/

[insanemaniac.2456]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > @"insanemaniac.2456" said:

> > > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > > > @"insanemaniac.2456" said:

> > > > more than this must happen on this front, gaile.

> > >

> > > Really? Just to satisfy the fearmongering? People need to calm down and get real.

> >

> > yeah, really. bring it to mo if gaile doesnt want / have authority to comment and tell us this stupid loophole in their process is closed.

>

> It's pretty obvious if you read it. There isn't any ambiguous wording there.

 

would you like to have 100g RMT sent to you to test the new policy and see if anet is still jumping the gun by handing out bans upon having a mail sent rather than having a mail accepted?

[Unknown.3976]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> This is tone deaf. Players want to know that a salty player/troll can't just send RMT gold to them to get them banned. Instead of linking to a large page why don't you just answer that question?

>

> Also your page says, "If you suspect you’ve received items or gold from a gold seller or RMT account, the best action is to report the message, return it if it still contains the items, and contact support if you are concerned that further action may be taken. We will work with you to secure your account and track the items back to the RMT account(s)."

>

> In the reddit thread that is causing this controversy (https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/9sxn5y/support_replied_to_200g_stranger_who_tried_to_ban/), the OP returned the gold, but you also took the gold off their account (https://i.imgur.com/Ke76Y3W.jpg). So now that player lost 200 gold due to your mistakes.

 

U think anet would even bother to reconcile with that player, after that player sent the reddit community into a mad frenzy, with many embracing trollish tactics, sending RMT to dev accounts becuz they think it's just. If anything, his actions just causes the dev to back off from open communication, and dig in their heels. It's the ultimate "burn the bridge" move.

[Linken.6345]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> > @"Lumpy.8760" said:

> > > @"Xaina.5418" said:

> > > @"Gaile Gray.6029"

> > >

> > > I'm the victim of this RMT scam. A person asked a RMT gold seller to send the RMT gold to my account to actually achieve his goal to get me banned.

> > > Ticket ID: 7123881 and 7124085

> > >

> > > More details of what happened: https://i.imgur.com/Ke76Y3W.jpg

> > >

> > > Can you please take a look into this issue and tell me if the red flag of RMT purchase is going to be removed from my account? I never did RMT and I never will. I'm a GW1 player for over 11 years and a GW2 player for over 6,5 years since the very first beta. I paid thousands of EUR over the past 6 years on gems/gemstore but I never did RMT.

> >

> > You accepted the gold. That's an instant flag. Doesn't matter if you're going to "send it back" you are not innocent in this situation. There was no reason to respond to that account; They were just following a money order from someone who put in your account/character name.

>

> As per the outlined page above they did as they were told, 'return it'. That page doesn't say it has to be by pressing the, 'return to sender' button, it just says return it, which OP did.

>

> Additionally if you examine the order of events, youll see OP was actually suppose to accept the gold from their mail, as the gold had already been taken from their account (if you believe the reddit post): https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/9t3w4u/gaile_gray_addresses_the_rmt_policy_on_the_forums/e8toid7/

 

They accepted said gold and then returned it there is a return to sender in the mail no need to grab it into account to then send it back.

 

Edit

Do it have to say click the return to sender button instead of accept mail then return?

 

If you grab the gold its on your account in said mail its still in limbo.

[chesayki.8425]

People are normally carefree while playing games and can't virus-check everything they get in game-mail so why is it instantly the receivers fault if some troll decided to RMT-assault them by sending them illegal item/gold? That logic is what's causing all the paranoia. If Anet doesn't address this soon, we're all playing GW2 in fear or "At your own risk".

[Tiawal.2351]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> In recent days, a few players have expressed confusion or concern about our RMT policy, especially about how we handle cases where someone receives items or currency from a real-money trader. To help everyone best understand where we stand on this subject, we’ve clarified our position in our Knowledge Base article, [Policy: Purchasing Gold from Real Money Traders (RMT)](https://help.guildwars2.com/hc/en-us/articles/360011560933 "Policy: Purchasing Gold from Real Money Traders (RMT)").

 

"If you suspect you’ve received items or gold from a gold seller or RMT account, the best action is to report the message, return it if it still contains the items, and contact support if you are concerned that further action may be taken."

 

You need to do more to prevent innocent accounts being marked by your automated system, by making sure they aren't a target of an attack. We can't prevent receiving in-game mail. Right now nobody is safe, every GW2 player can be subject to these attacks. Not everyone will "suspect" that the gold received is from RMT, there are many cases where players send gold to each other (which is allowed in this game afaik).

 

Also please start communicating, this problem is already in news and isn't a good advertising. I found out about on another MMO news site (ask for link if you need, won't post it for now). This needs a proper fix asap.

 

The "contact support if you are concerned" is very slow, and going through support is a punishment in itself. Also if these attacks can get you banned, you wouldn't be able to contact support.

 

 

[Tiawal.2351]

> @"Lumpy.8760" said:

> everyone is forgetting that the person who was sent gold ACCEPTED the 200 gold in order to "reply" to the gold seller? There really is no reason to do that. Yes, this is avoidable; do NOT accept the gold!

 

Not everyone reads the forums, just plays the game when they got some time. Receiving gold is allowed and could be from anyone, not all of them are RMT attacks. We don't know if that person is related to RMT or not, but that case reveals a scenario that could happen to each of us.

[chesayki.8425]

> @"Lumpy.8760" said:

> everyone is forgetting that the person who was sent gold ACCEPTED the 200 gold in order to "reply" to the gold seller? There really is no reason to do that. Yes, this is avoidable; do NOT accept the gold!

 

Did you not read the part where he said he thought it was a donation since he get big donations sometimes? It was probably after he took the gold that he realized he didn't know the sender.

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

Look, just disable gold/item transfer via mail while you guys sort out the flagging system. It'll hurt in short term, but it'll help in long run.

 

It is irresponsible to blame players for clicking on a single button and not being vigilant against malicious attacks. Players should not be in fear since the tools to check whether it is RMT gold lies in ANet's hands, not players like Awesumness. **Victim blaming is a sign of weakness in the any system.** A 5s check on log before ban should've tell the ANY Human Support that he sent it back. You simply can't let automated system handing out heavy punishments since it is proven time and again that it may be exploited by malicious individuals.

 

With all these ban fiasco happened recently me and a lot of my friends have lost most faith on ANet customer support team, and I truly believe we're not the only one in GW2 population. To us it seems like the company handles situation through extremely paternalistic ways without actually working with their customers. You cannot say you care for players if time-convenience of automated system prioritize over countless hours/money players invested on their account. This culture needs to stop.

[MetalGirl.2370]

How about you keep mailing system for text only and add actual trading like in GW1 for gold and items ?

Your post didn't tell us anything, we already knew this, the whole point that people are trying to make is that you shouldn't punish obviously innocent people for receiving gold from a seller, how in the world are people even supposed to know if it's a gold seller or not [unless they have a weird name] ...you don't punish a victim. How dare people unknowingly receive gold, how dare they not know who it's from and where the gold came from

[Dedicant.6820]

Whether they accepted the gold or not doesn't matter as it seems that the warning gets put on your account as soon as the mail arrives, doesn't matter if you report, return, ignore or accept. People are worried, rightfully so because there has been no addressing of this flawed system as far as I'm aware. Someone can spend a small amount of real life currency to destroy years worth of progress into GW2. A few repeats of this and you get a ban, each warning added to your account adds up and even one could result in support being less likely to help you for future unrelated problems since your account is permanently marked as suspicious. There's also the issue of uninformed players accepting gold/items sent in the mail and being victimised (especially when the game community often provides tips for tp/train services etc as well as gifts and giveaways where accepting mail gold and items from unknown people is not uncommon) which yeah is really really bad but what seems like a far more egregious issue is that there is literally nothing you can do to defend yourself from automated punishment to the sendee as soon as mail is sent.

[aries.6548]

This needs a proper solution and quick! This will not go away! People are scared to spend money on the game or socialize with players if a random 3rd party can just easily get them banned/suspended for a long time, spending just a couple $ a few times. Just remove the ability to send Gold or Items entirely for all I care.

[Taygus.4571]

Gaile, I have a simple question, how would one know that they've been sent rmt gold? :(

[Sabas.8431]

With the state of support for GW2 as it is, this situation just makes it worse.

 

The "solution" does not make sense either.

How is a player supposed to know that gold being mailed to him is rmt gold?

 

Overall this is creating an atmosphere that goes against the cooperative nature of gw2.

 

Also, support for gw2 moves at a glacial pace. If it wasn't for the love of this game many players would just give up waiting and play something else.

 

Does Anet realise the added burden on support if they basically force players to ticket every coin they are send, to check if its rmt coin?

 

It's neither healthy or sustainable for both players and customer support.

[gogreen.5972]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> In recent days, a few players have expressed confusion or concern about our RMT policy, especially about how we handle cases where someone receives items or currency from a real-money trader. To help everyone best understand where we stand on this subject, we’ve clarified our position in our Knowledge Base article, [Policy: Purchasing Gold from Real Money Traders (RMT)](https://help.guildwars2.com/hc/en-us/articles/360011560933 "Policy: Purchasing Gold from Real Money Traders (RMT)"). This expanded version is currently undergoing localization and will be posted in French, German, and Spanish as soon as possible.

>

> Please take a look at that document, and if you have any questions after you have done so, let us know.

>

 

This is a first step, but doesn't ensure player safety, which is the true "confusion or concern" going on in parts of the community.

I believe MithranArkanere.8957 said it best:

 

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> While the document with the policy tells players what to do, it gives no assurance that they won't get punished if they follow those instructions.

>

> All I want to see is a clear and concise assurance that no one will receive a punishment if they do not actually receive the items in their account, so people can finally lay their fears to rest.

> If someone asks "Will I get banned if some unknown third party buys RMT goods in my name even if I do not accept them and send them back?" if the answer to that is simple "No, you will not get banned", people will finally rest easy.

>

> As far as I can see, that assurance has not been given yet, and that gives some people an uneasy feeling of uncertainty.

 

But Lascax.2163 also makes clear points:

 

> @"Lascax.2163" said:

> It looks like the document addresses the receiver as the buyer in any case. It looks like it does not cover malicious intents by third parties especially if the receiver doesn't know about the origin of such gold/items ( this is especially true for Commanders ). I think that a surefire policy should be to **always** have a human support contact first before any flagging.

> Also it doesn't cover cases where the gold is sent multiple times and there's no way to stop that for us. Can we be assured that, even if a specific user gets sent multiple times such items, they're not accountable for that if they never get those contents? Still, the problem persists for Commanders, which cannot in any way trace every source.

 

The outrage isn't against having RMT suspected goods removed, it's how that affects the receiver of said goods.

The policy is also, I assume, intentionally vague, the Anet team will take action, but how that happens is left up to may statements, and it seems as simply returning goods is in fact not a sure-fire way to stay out of trouble as no guarantees are given (other than that RMT goods WILL be removed).

And according to the case which sparked these discussions (at least for me):

 

> @"Xaina.5418" said:

> @"Gaile Gray.6029"

>

> I'm the victim of this RMT scam. A person asked a RMT gold seller to send the RMT gold to my account to actually achieve his goal to get me banned.

> Ticket ID: 7123881 and 7124085

>

> More details of what happened: https://i.imgur.com/Ke76Y3W.jpg

>

> Can you please take a look into this issue and tell me if the red flag of RMT purchase is going to be removed from my account? I never did RMT and I never will. I'm a GW1 player for over 11 years and a GW2 player for over 6,5 years since the very first beta. I paid thousands of EUR over the past 6 years on gems/gemstore but I never did RMT.

 

The problem is that unless Anet can say something along the lines of "No it doesn't work that way, rest easy" , we live in a limbo where we don't know if the ban-hammer is no longer solely belonging to Anet or to any malicious player ready to buy RMT goods in the name of any other player.

And that is not a small problem.

 

 

[Blocki.4931]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> > @"Lumpy.8760" said:

> > > @"Xaina.5418" said:

> > > @"Gaile Gray.6029"

> > >

> > > I'm the victim of this RMT scam. A person asked a RMT gold seller to send the RMT gold to my account to actually achieve his goal to get me banned.

> > > Ticket ID: 7123881 and 7124085

> > >

> > > More details of what happened: https://i.imgur.com/Ke76Y3W.jpg

> > >

> > > Can you please take a look into this issue and tell me if the red flag of RMT purchase is going to be removed from my account? I never did RMT and I never will. I'm a GW1 player for over 11 years and a GW2 player for over 6,5 years since the very first beta. I paid thousands of EUR over the past 6 years on gems/gemstore but I never did RMT.

> >

> > You accepted the gold. That's an instant flag. Doesn't matter if you're going to "send it back" you are not innocent in this situation. There was no reason to respond to that account; They were just following a money order from someone who put in your account/character name.

>

> As per the outlined page above they did as they were told, 'return it'. That page doesn't say it has to be by pressing the, 'return to sender' button, it just says return it, which OP did.

>

> Additionally if you examine the order of events, youll see OP was actually suppose to accept the gold from their mail, as the gold had already been taken from their account (if you believe the reddit post): https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/9t3w4u/gaile_gray_addresses_the_rmt_policy_on_the_forums/e8toid7/

 

No, the game gives you a direct option so you have to use it. It't not rocket science, it's just an unnecessary step that you shouldn't take for obvious reasons.

 

But this is a waste of time, have fun arguing about this silly thing.

[Tiawal.2351]

A few ideas for ArenaNet on how to help the players avoid this problem:

 

1. To the already existing warning in mails (that this wasn't sent from ArenaNet) add another warning, explaining that any attachment could come from an RMT (maybe use something like "illegal gold trader") player, and clicking on RECEIVE may risk having their account banned, and even a confirmation pop-up. This is not a perfect solution, but is better to be warned properly, until a better fix is found. Some players still won't read it, but most will, or at least hear about from one another.

2. Don't mark an account before the player accepts the mail attachment. We can't stop mails being sent to us. Those buying RMT gold should be hunted and punished, but not the victims of such attacks.

3. Add mail filter options where we can specify if we allow to be sent mail attachments to us (from nobody, just friend list, everyone, maybe even more), and if yes how much (above 100g, under 50g, under 5g, under 1g) so we can still reward players helping us, without placing them at risk.

4. could be more, others may come up with even better solutions - but until this is solved just completely shut down the mail system - it's just not worth the risk

[Pifil.5193]

The wording of the GM reply is odd and of concern "Whether this account was responsible for buying RMT items & currency or receiving RMT items & currency, the account is held accountable for these violations."

 

Also, apparently support had already taken detected the mail from the RMT and had already taken 200g off the guys account but, crucially, they _left_ the mail from the RMT in their mailbox with 200g on it. That seems like a very strange way of handling incidents like this. If the officially recommended process is to report the mail and then return it then why not simply delete that mail with the gold rather than take the gold from their account? This would avoid the situation where a person logs onto their account (which is already down 200g), notices and returns a mail containing 200g and then what? They log a ticket to get their 200g back? That's a waste of everyone's time, especially given the support ticket backlog.

 

If they have the tools to detect a mail with the gold and they have the tools required to delete gold or items from an account then they must surely have the tools required to delete or amend a mail. Either way they shouldn't remove any gold until the person actually takes it from the mail. Also in this kind of situation it would be best to also send an in-game mail. ArenaNet's CRM system should be automatically sending in-game notifications as well as regular e-mails anyway.

[Lonami.2987]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> This is tone deaf. Players want to know that a salty player/troll can't just send RMT gold to them to get them banned. Instead of linking to a large page why don't you just answer that question?

>

> Also your page says, "If you suspect you’ve received items or gold from a gold seller or RMT account, the best action is to report the message, return it if it still contains the items, and contact support if you are concerned that further action may be taken. We will work with you to secure your account and track the items back to the RMT account(s)."

>

> In the reddit thread that is causing this controversy (https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/9sxn5y/support_replied_to_200g_stranger_who_tried_to_ban/), the OP returned the gold, but you also took the gold off their account (https://i.imgur.com/Ke76Y3W.jpg). So now that player lost 200 gold due to your mistakes.

 

Yeah, this is the major problem.

 

Guarantee that no one will get banned because of a troll, and this whole issue will be over in 5 seconds.

 

But we aren't getting a solution, and this will only become worse and worse.

 

It's like the team lives in a bubble, and can't see the world outside burning. Take your community's problems seriously.

 

> @"NICENIKESHOE.7128" said:

> Look, just disable gold/item transfer via mail while you guys sort out the flagging system. It'll hurt in short term, but it'll help in long run.

>

> It is irresponsible to blame players for clicking on a single button and not being vigilant against malicious attacks. Players should not be in fear since the tools to check whether it is RMT gold lies in ANet's hands, not players like Awesumness. **Victim blaming is a sign of weakness in the any system.** A 5s check on log before ban should've tell the ANY Human Support that he sent it back. You simply can't let automated system handing out heavy punishments since it is proven time and again that it may be exploited by malicious individuals.

>

> With all these ban fiasco happened recently me and a lot of my friends have lost most faith on ANet customer support team, and I truly believe we're not the only one in GW2 population. To us it seems like the company handles situation through extremely paternalistic ways without actually working with their customers. You cannot say you care for players if time-convenience of automated system prioritize over countless hours/money players invested on their account. This culture needs to stop.

 

Best and easiest solution, just disable it until it's safe again.

 

And if you can't make it safe, let players disable mail attachments altogether. I don't want to trade items with other players by mail.

[Carighan.6758]

I find it fascinating - and laughable at the same time - that after criticism about the RMT policy **missing the point**, a statement comes out which **misses the point**.

 

At least it's consistent, I suppose :joy:

[mtpelion.4562]

The only place in the RMT policy page that even comes close to referencing actions against an account is here:

 

_If the account is directly linked to RMT—by way of evidence that amounts to more than just receiving items—it may be subject to further account action._

 

Ergo, if a troll buys gold to send to you in an attempt to get you banned, you will **not ** be banned because there is no way to directly link that chain of events to you buying from an RMT.

[Lonami.2987]

> @"mtpelion.4562" said:

> The only place in the RMT policy page that even comes close to referencing actions against an account is here:

>

> _If the account is directly linked to RMT—by way of evidence that amounts to more than just receiving items—it may be subject to further account action._

>

> Ergo, if a troll buys gold to send to you in an attempt to get you banned, you will **not ** be banned because there is no way to directly link that chain of events to you buying from an RMT.

 

That's the problem, trolls don't buy the gold themselves and then send it, they buy it using the victim's account name, so you can't even know who's the troll sending you the gold. In the eyes of ArenaNet, there's no difference between a gold buyer and a victim, and that's a huge problem.

[Daddicus.6128]

I simply can't understand what everybody is up in arms about. The policy is, in my opinion, nearly perfect. There is no "loophole" unless players have this happening OFTEN. So far, there have been exactly TWO instances of this that we know about (in this thread and the reddit thread). And, the one in this thread was clearly suspended for CORRECT reasons.

 

Get a mail from an unknown party containing something quite valuable? Follow the policy and report it. What's so hard to understand about that?

 

If you accept the gold or item from someone unknown to you, you fully deserve what you will get: suspended or worse.

 

Stop throwing out hypothetical situations as if they're really happening with frequency.

 

Gaile, **keep up the good work**. And, please pass that comment on to the others involved in making and maintaining this policy.

 

NOTE: I said "nearly perfect" above. What I mean is I think one should KEEP the email until after the support ticket has been resolved. Report it, keep it, and make sure support knows about it. Then, delete it later (or, let support delete it). But, it's your game, and I accept the policy as it is. This paragraph is just a suggestion.

[thrag.9740]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> No, the game gives you a direct option so you have to use it. It't not rocket science, it's just an unnecessary step that you shouldn't take for obvious reasons.

>

> But this is a waste of time, have fun arguing about this silly thing.

Also this quote same response from me below:

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> They accepted said gold and then returned it there is a return to sender in the mail no need to grab it into account to then send it back.

>

> Edit

> Do it have to say click the return to sender button instead of accept mail then return?

>

> If you grab the gold its on your account in said mail its still in limbo.

 

Thats great except both of you are choosing to ignore that Anet took the gold out of OP's wallet before OP accepted that gold, so if OP just hits 'return to sender' or returns it with a response, they are still down 200 gold. I.e following Anet's stated instructions, OP still loses 200 gold.

 

Again this is all if you believe the reddit threat, but considering the reddit thread is from a moderately popular player with lots of picture evidence, and ANet's response is a corporate, 'see our TOS', I believe OP over Anet.

[Taygus.4571]

> @"Daddicus.6128" said:

> I simply can't understand what everybody is up in arms about. The policy is, in my opinion, nearly perfect. There is no "loophole" unless players have this happening OFTEN. So far, there have been exactly TWO instances of this that we know about (in this thread and the reddit thread). And, the one in this thread was clearly suspended for CORRECT reasons.

>

> Get a mail from an unknown party containing something quite valuable? Follow the policy and report it. What's so hard to understand about that?

>

> If you accept the gold or item from someone unknown to you, you fully deserve what you will get: suspended or worse.

>

> Stop throwing out hypothetical situations as if they're really happening with frequency.

>

> Gaile, **keep up the good work**. And, please pass that comment on to the others involved in making and maintaining this policy.

>

> NOTE: I said "nearly perfect" above. What I mean is I think one should KEEP the email until after the support ticket has been resolved. Report it, keep it, and make sure support knows about it. Then, delete it later (or, let support delete it). But, it's your game, and I accept the policy as it is. This paragraph is just a suggestion.

 

So people have to be wary of every donation they get?

 

I'll post the same question that i asked Gaile..how are we supposed to know that a mail contains RMT?

 

 

___

They should simply remove any RMT gold(even if it puts accounts in tye negative) and leave it at that.. no risk of ban but if something is RMT, people paid money for nothing...but no major harm done to unsuspecting players.