Semi and Perma-Stealth are junk mechanics

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Avion Blade.4869" said:

> The simple answer is to lose stealth the moment the player hits an attack ability, and the stealth is lost before the animation of attack. Anyone agree or no? As mirage I'm fine with that. Gives all classes chances to react, at least give them the ability to see the opponent before damage is taken, not see them after damage is taken.

 

you realize that you wont be able to use sword leap while stealthed then to get some distance? wether some skill is used as an attack or not is not easy to detect by the game. for thief this would further be a nerf to d/p darevil/core stealth uptime while not affecting deadeye much because silent scope is not an attack but heartseeker/bound to stealth is an attack. so i guess you will see some resistance from the thief community here, many of em in this forum dont seem to enjoy playing deadeye.

[coro.3176]

* Stealth (under 4s): good

* Long stealth (over 4s): fine, but should have some kind of indicator or restriction (eg. shadow refuge, sneak gyro)

* Perma stealth (indefinite): really boring. It basically means one player can hide forever and only engage when they're sure they can win. There's no incentive to fight. Reveal was supposed to fix this, but DE just cancels it, so it's pointless.

 

However, I rarely see perma-stealth these days because the marked debuff is everywhere on t3 towers and sentries.

[apharma.3741]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> * Stealth (under 4s): good

> * Long stealth (over 4s): fine, but should have some kind of indicator or restriction (eg. shadow refuge, sneak gyro)

> * Perma stealth (indefinite): really boring. It basically means one player can hide forever and only engage when they're sure they can win. There's no incentive to fight. Reveal was supposed to fix this, but DE just cancels it, so it's pointless.

>

> However, I rarely see perma-stealth these days because the marked debuff is everywhere on t3 towers and sentries.

 

I'd also like to add constant restealthing for 3-4s is also really boring, like druids which still haven't had CA and ancient seeds nerfed like it should be.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> * Stealth (under 4s): good

> * Long stealth (over 4s): fine, but should have some kind of indicator or restriction (eg. shadow refuge, sneak gyro)

> * Perma stealth (indefinite): really boring. It basically means one player can hide forever and only engage when they're sure they can win. There's no incentive to fight. Reveal was supposed to fix this, but DE just cancels it, so it's pointless.

>

> However, I rarely see perma-stealth these days because the marked debuff is everywhere on t3 towers and sentries.

 

I still see a few running around. Came across a ghost condi one a week or so ago.

[apharma.3741]

Here's a nice fun and engaging fight I have with 1 deadeye who sits in perma stealth and will follow you around all evening just to kill and corpse jump you. This isn't fun and engaging gameplay by a large margin.

 

https://imgur.com/a/ERPnYSz

 

@"Gaile Gray.6029" Any chance you can pass this on to the skill team as they don't seem to be aware that you can be instantly killed without ever knowing a dead eye was there because assassin's signet gives so much power damage.

[Strider Pj.2193]

Look., that DE invested a lot of time. Move BLs, go to different areas. Spoil his fun. You coming back is only feeding his enjoyment, as twisted as many might feel it is.

 

But playing Mesmer? And saying that? Really? Just saying.

 

[apharma.3741]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> Look., that DE invested a lot of time. Move BLs, go to different areas. Spoil his fun. You coming back is only feeding his enjoyment, as twisted as many might feel it is.

>

> But playing Mesmer? And saying that? Really? Just saying.

>

 

I'm playing power mirage, it's not exactly considered strong in the meta so check your assumptions at the door. Also I do switch border but you know what? I'd rather log out and do something else and I do frequently when I run into these kinds of short sighted balance decisions from ANet.

 

You did see how the guy hit me for 200 under my health right, I had no idea he was around till he hit me at a sentry and there was no way to know he was there because rifle has no tells on it's stealth.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Klypto.1703" said:

> Bleh the people who complain about stealth also complain about anything else they don't know or don't care to learn how to fight against. So if this were to happen they would just find something else that I killed them with to QQ about. Especially rofl I go on rev and I was like you saw me coming right but then they go oh yer able to react too fast with rev and we go back to square one were they don't realize its not the class its not the stealth its you.

 

Granted, people who get salty when they lose are going to find something to be salty about. But that doesn't mean that the design of mechanics like stealth aren't problematic. People have a point when they bring up the fact that pretty much every MMO has stealth mechanics and that GW2 stands out with its unrestricted version of stealth. Personally, I think it's a legitimate question to ask why they decided to go this way and to evaluate whether or not this is truly beneficial or necessary.

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> You did see how the guy hit me for 200 under my health right, I had no idea he was around till he hit me at a sentry and there was no way to know he was there because **rifle has no tells on it's stealth**.

 

while the wiki says trying to dodge without endurance causes your character to shout a line depening on race, i am pretty certain it also does it when you just normally dodge sometimes, very rarely. so it has an RNG audio tell , like the mark (hidden thief) and using stolen skill (stealth above 5 malice).

i know , i know not really reliable tells :3

one could add a universal audio tell for gaining a stack of stealth, with that you wouldnt need to give the exact stealthed position away rendering stealth rather useless but the target would always have a warning of someone stacking stealth regardless of FoV or method used for stealth.

 

i dont think its likely that on the damage part itself we will see changes as those would be nerfs to core thief. both base backstab + assassins signet are core thief afterall. and i personally dont think its damage keeping the thief (specifically deadeye) in a good position for roaming, its stealth. i would even say thief damage / sustain is overal relatively low atm outside stealth. being able to fight on your terms when utilizing stealth however compensates for it. thats why i think its pretty hard to change anything about the thief atm without a complete rework or making it unviable (considering the alternatives). adding an audifo tell to stealth you still fight on your terms and control the flow of the fight, but no longer against mostly unaware opponents.

i do sometimes utilize such a backstab to kill an unaware squishy opponents, yet i do think deadeye doesnt need it to do fine. its not worth the effort trying to do that backstab against an opponent aware of your presence and usually too risky. this suggestion here i think would go a long way in reducing the efficiency of this specific usage of the involved tools, without interfering too much in other ways of using them.

but then again having played too much deadeye i am certainly biased and mostly see the deadeyes PoV not the targets, what do you think would a universal audio tell for gaining a stack of stealth help you in such a situation?

 

[Gemnaid.4219]

Yes they are.

[apharma.3741]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > You did see how the guy hit me for 200 under my health right, I had no idea he was around till he hit me at a sentry and there was no way to know he was there because **rifle has no tells on it's stealth**.

>

> while the wiki says trying to dodge without endurance causes your character to shout a line depening on race, i am pretty certain it also does it when you just normally dodge sometimes, very rarely. so it has an RNG audio tell , like the mark (hidden thief) and using stolen skill (stealth above 5 malice).

> i know , i know not really reliable tells :3

> one could add a universal audio tell for gaining a stack of stealth, with that you wouldnt need to give the exact stealthed position away rendering stealth rather useless but the target would always have a warning of someone stacking stealth regardless of FoV or method used for stealth.

>

> i dont think its likely that on the damage part itself we will see changes as those would be nerfs to core thief. both base backstab + assassins signet are core thief afterall. and i personally dont think its damage keeping the thief (specifically deadeye) in a good position for roaming, its stealth. i would even say thief damage / sustain is overal relatively low atm outside stealth. being able to fight on your terms when utilizing stealth however compensates for it. thats why i think its pretty hard to change anything about the thief atm without a complete rework or making it unviable (considering the alternatives). adding an audifo tell to stealth you still fight on your terms and control the flow of the fight, but no longer against mostly unaware opponents.

> i do sometimes utilize such a backstab to kill an unaware squishy opponents, yet i do think deadeye doesnt need it to do fine. its not worth the effort trying to do that backstab against an opponent aware of your presence and usually too risky. this suggestion here i think would go a long way in reducing the efficiency of this specific usage of the involved tools, without interfering too much in other ways of using them.

> but then again having played too much deadeye i am certainly biased and mostly see the deadeyes PoV not the targets, what do you think would a universal audio tell for gaining a stack of stealth help you in such a situation?

>

 

I think no-one should be able to sit in permanent stealth. I know you love to do that but it's not fun on the receiving end and it's not fun to play against, I know that would mean you quit the game and while that does sadden me some what the game will be healthier for not having this mechanic or perma stealth. Stealth should be limited to 5s max, yes retune all the skills affected like Mass Invis and Shadow Refuge but there should be a limit and a time of forced reveal and no way around that.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Can't find the source but I'm sure ANet said, before the game was released, that stealth was based on long cds. Never got my head on why they dished the idea of balance'ish stealth in favor of this madness.

I mean stealth not only doesn't have any drawback in this game, it was boosts.

This games' stealth is the most obnoxious one in the entire mmo industry (which including those peskies Asian mmos without any kind of balance whatsoever, is saying a lot).

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > Look., that DE invested a lot of time. Move BLs, go to different areas. Spoil his fun. You coming back is only feeding his enjoyment, as twisted as many might feel it is.

> >

> > But playing Mesmer? And saying that? Really? Just saying.

> >

>

> I'm playing power mirage, it's not exactly considered strong in the meta so check your assumptions at the door. Also I do switch border but you know what? I'd rather log out and do something else and I do frequently when I run into these kinds of short sighted balance decisions from ANet.

>

> You did see how the guy hit me for 200 under my health right, I had no idea he was around till he hit me at a sentry and there was no way to know he was there because rifle has no tells on it's stealth.

 

So, a relatively glassy light armor class. I run into this type of glassy solo DE once to twice a week while roaming. Mirage is fairly universally hated second only to DE. That was my assumption.

 

If he is hunting you as you stated, ruin his fun. Move BLs or move to a completely different part of the map.

 

The game will never be balanced for 1v1 or even small scale. Doing so would likely break large scale.

 

Stealth has taken nerfs. I never sit still when I am out from under a watchtower or friendly sentry. I expect that hit at all times.

 

My marshals ele has yet to be ‘one shot’ by a deadeye that hasn’t already hit me multiple times. Either by rifle or backstab.

 

I don’t argue that it’s a problem but there are more things I’d rather they spent their time on.

 

Things that actually effect the outcomes of skirmishes and numbers balance.

 

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> Can't find the source but I'm sure ANet said, before the game was released, that stealth was based on long cds. Never got my head on why they dished the idea of balance'ish stealth in favor of this madness.

> I mean stealth not only doesn't have any drawback in this game, it was boosts.

> This games' stealth is the most obnoxious one in the entire mmo industry (which including those peskies Asian mmos without any kind of balance whatsoever, is saying a lot).

Well, it's kind of funny that it was "long cooldowns" in a way... with one single exception - smokefield jumping. That's what kept the vanilla thief basicly permastealthing and that's what still feeds the stealth of the d/p today. Lets just... ignore the rifle dodging.

 

A long time ago when I was young and naive I made a single suggestion to fix all that - **you cannot combo in your own fields, only allies fields**. It would have literally nerfed **all** classes and still kept strong solo builds down today while putting more emphasis on teamwork.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > Look., that DE invested a lot of time. Move BLs, go to different areas. Spoil his fun. You coming back is only feeding his enjoyment, as twisted as many might feel it is.

> > >

> > > But playing Mesmer? And saying that? Really? Just saying.

> > >

> >

> > I'm playing power mirage, it's not exactly considered strong in the meta so check your assumptions at the door. Also I do switch border but you know what? I'd rather log out and do something else and I do frequently when I run into these kinds of short sighted balance decisions from ANet.

> >

> > You did see how the guy hit me for 200 under my health right, I had no idea he was around till he hit me at a sentry and there was no way to know he was there because rifle has no tells on it's stealth.

>

> So, a relatively glassy light armor class. I run into this type of glassy solo DE once to twice a week while roaming. Mirage is fairly universally hated second only to DE. That was my assumption.

>

> If he is hunting you as you stated, ruin his fun. Move BLs or move to a completely different part of the map.

>

> The game will never be balanced for 1v1 or even small scale. Doing so would likely break large scale.

>

> Stealth has taken nerfs. I never sit still when I am out from under a watchtower or friendly sentry. I expect that hit at all times.

>

> My marshals ele has yet to be ‘one shot’ by a deadeye that hasn’t already hit me multiple times. Either by rifle or backstab.

>

> I don’t argue that it’s a problem but there are more things I’d rather they spent their time on.

>

> Things that actually effect the outcomes of skirmishes and numbers balance.

>

 

The guy goes after anyone, he stays in perma stealth near duel spots waiting for someone and then one shots them or will interrupt duels all evening. He will also then follow anyone he doesn't manage to one shot for the rest of the evening calling in his friend who runs the same build (though his friend is bad at it) to essentially grief you.

 

I suspect you don't get one shot by this guy because as far as I've seen (or not seen) the only 2 I've run into are both on Ruins of Surmia so if you aren't fighting them you're not likely to find the kind of lame players who do this just to urinate on everyone's bonfire for a few hours every evening. He also tends to follow you around if you don't go offline and will often appear on the same border after 10 minutes stalking you.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > Can't find the source but I'm sure ANet said, before the game was released, that stealth was based on long cds. Never got my head on why they dished the idea of balance'ish stealth in favor of this madness.

> > I mean stealth not only doesn't have any drawback in this game, it was boosts.

> > This games' stealth is the most obnoxious one in the entire mmo industry (which including those peskies Asian mmos without any kind of balance whatsoever, is saying a lot).

> Well, it's kind of funny that it was "long cooldowns" in a way... with one single exception - smokefield jumping. That's what kept the vanilla thief basicly permastealthing and that's what still feeds the stealth of the d/p today. Lets just... ignore the rifle dodging.

>

> A long time ago when I was young and naive I made a single suggestion to fix all that - **you cannot combo in your own fields, only allies fields**. It would have literally nerfed **all** classes and still kept strong solo builds down today while putting more emphasis on teamwork.

 

Kind of, at the release thieves played d/d, d/d sllows to enter stealth just as easy as d/p.

About your suggestions I like it (although I would prefer to remove stealth entirely from game).

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > > Look., that DE invested a lot of time. Move BLs, go to different areas. Spoil his fun. You coming back is only feeding his enjoyment, as twisted as many might feel it is.

> > > >

> > > > But playing Mesmer? And saying that? Really? Just saying.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I'm playing power mirage, it's not exactly considered strong in the meta so check your assumptions at the door. Also I do switch border but you know what? I'd rather log out and do something else and I do frequently when I run into these kinds of short sighted balance decisions from ANet.

> > >

> > > You did see how the guy hit me for 200 under my health right, I had no idea he was around till he hit me at a sentry and there was no way to know he was there because rifle has no tells on it's stealth.

> >

> > So, a relatively glassy light armor class. I run into this type of glassy solo DE once to twice a week while roaming. Mirage is fairly universally hated second only to DE. That was my assumption.

> >

> > If he is hunting you as you stated, ruin his fun. Move BLs or move to a completely different part of the map.

> >

> > The game will never be balanced for 1v1 or even small scale. Doing so would likely break large scale.

> >

> > Stealth has taken nerfs. I never sit still when I am out from under a watchtower or friendly sentry. I expect that hit at all times.

> >

> > My marshals ele has yet to be ‘one shot’ by a deadeye that hasn’t already hit me multiple times. Either by rifle or backstab.

> >

> > I don’t argue that it’s a problem but there are more things I’d rather they spent their time on.

> >

> > Things that actually effect the outcomes of skirmishes and numbers balance.

> >

>

> The guy goes after anyone, he stays in perma stealth near duel spots waiting for someone and then one shots them or will interrupt duels all evening. He will also then follow anyone he doesn't manage to one shot for the rest of the evening calling in his friend who runs the same build (though his friend is bad at it) to essentially grief you.

>

> I suspect you don't get one shot by this guy because as far as I've seen (or not seen) the only 2 I've run into are both on Ruins of Surmia so if you aren't fighting them you're not likely to find the kind of lame players who do this just to urinate on everyone's bonfire for a few hours every evening. He also tends to follow you around if you don't go offline and will often appear on the same border after 10 minutes stalking you.

 

So he is likely on one of the links, or you are (as that is likely the only way he knows what Border you are on) Yes, I’ve dealt with toxic people and it DOES get to the point where you feel like your day/night gets ruined. I feel for you on that.

 

I guess my point is only that this type of player will use Any class they feel will get an advantage. Wouldn’t shock me if stealth was removed if you’d just see him in a Condi mirage.

 

But no, I haven’t faced that server. So I do not know your particular pain, though I can emphasize. GL to you.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

> >n suggest just removing 2 CORE classes cause you can't learn to beat them, cause YOU say YOU can't counter stealth, because there is plenty of people in WvW and PvP that in fact counter stealth all the time. What happens when they do remove stealth, and then you discover you can't deal with Guards and Warriors because of all the Blocks, Invulnerable, and Sustain? Going to ask for those classes to be removed? That's 5/9 gone. Eventually we'll be down to what, Necro only? What poor roaming class _do you play_ so we all know what we're allowed to play?

> >

>

> I am not just suggesting it, I think it is the only fair and sensible way forward.

>

> I do not care about warriors or guardians, because they don't shoot for 20+k damage out of stealth. Or jump in, do 17k damage, jump away, jump in a short while later for a second 17k hit.

>

> Like thiefs or mesmers do.

>

> A LOT.

>

> So enjoy your broken classes you love so much. Because it seems you are only concerned about your own fun: hitting others who have no idea you are coming, then retreat into stealth, so you don't have to fear retribution.

>

> But hey, there is another way to fix thieves and mesmers and all their elites once and for all without removing them or stealth.

>

> Really.

>

> It is really simple too.

>

> Just divide their maximum, their median and their minimum damage by 10. And half their hp.

>

> You don't take any risks? Fine. You don't do any damage.

>

> THAT would be balanced.

 

I know it’s crazy the amount of daredevils running around ruining people,oh wait lol,the impact they have on zergs bouncing in and out is trivial and usually get eaten by scourge condis in seconds,in duels they are far less a threat than soulbeast,mirage and holo’s,even core guard out burst them and have far more tools to sustain the fight longer. Glad ur not in charge of balancing or there would be even more soulbeast and holos running around lol

[MUDse.7623]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > You did see how the guy hit me for 200 under my health right, I had no idea he was around till he hit me at a sentry and there was no way to know he was there because **rifle has no tells on it's stealth**.

> >

> > while the wiki says trying to dodge without endurance causes your character to shout a line depening on race, i am pretty certain it also does it when you just normally dodge sometimes, very rarely. so it has an RNG audio tell , like the mark (hidden thief) and using stolen skill (stealth above 5 malice).

> > i know , i know not really reliable tells :3

> > one could add a universal audio tell for gaining a stack of stealth, with that you wouldnt need to give the exact stealthed position away rendering stealth rather useless but the target would always have a warning of someone stacking stealth regardless of FoV or method used for stealth.

> >

> > i dont think its likely that on the damage part itself we will see changes as those would be nerfs to core thief. both base backstab + assassins signet are core thief afterall. and i personally dont think its damage keeping the thief (specifically deadeye) in a good position for roaming, its stealth. i would even say thief damage / sustain is overal relatively low atm outside stealth. being able to fight on your terms when utilizing stealth however compensates for it. thats why i think its pretty hard to change anything about the thief atm without a complete rework or making it unviable (considering the alternatives). adding an audifo tell to stealth you still fight on your terms and control the flow of the fight, but no longer against mostly unaware opponents.

> > i do sometimes utilize such a backstab to kill an unaware squishy opponents, yet i do think deadeye doesnt need it to do fine. its not worth the effort trying to do that backstab against an opponent aware of your presence and usually too risky. this suggestion here i think would go a long way in reducing the efficiency of this specific usage of the involved tools, without interfering too much in other ways of using them.

> > but then again having played too much deadeye i am certainly biased and mostly see the deadeyes PoV not the targets, what do you think would a universal audio tell for gaining a stack of stealth help you in such a situation?

> >

>

> I think no-one should be able to sit in permanent stealth. I know you love to do that but it's not fun on the receiving end and it's not fun to play against, I know that would mean you quit the game and while that does sadden me some what the game will be healthier for not having this mechanic or perma stealth. Stealth should be limited to 5s max, yes retune all the skills affected like Mass Invis and Shadow Refuge but there should be a limit and a time of forced reveal and no way around that.

 

for whatever reason that answer was removed, you swapped to personal so i answered in that manner. anyway next try personal wall of text:

no i will not quit because of it, i do not feel tied to a specific profession and like to play all of them except warrior. i am just thief 'main' by playtime on my thieves as they were for the vast majority of the games history #1 solo roamer, mainly due to stealth. if that changes however, nothing will stop me from playing my mesmer (i actually have more mesmers than thieves) , soulbeast, holo etc. when i feel like thief is no longer the optimal choice for what i have in mind to do.

the only thing where i need permastealth and do use it, is inside enemy keeps/towers. on normal roaming encounters i often dont stealth till i know a fight is imminent (e.g. seeing the opponent, so they can see me too). however i havent been doing the hiding in keeps/towers much since the changes to mark as i see it as a sign from anet that its not really an intended playstyle. (this match only once in fire keep so far!). so yeah its not much i personally would lose. i didnt even spent half my roaming time this match on thief and most of it on mesmer.

 

BTT:

in your now removed answer to my answer you mentioned that my suggestion mainly lacks an indicator of range and longer stacked stealth can still avoid that tell.

next suggestion:

as i still prefer an audio tell and see it more likely to happen than a max stealth duration, how about: you hear your opponents footsteps while they are in stealth, louder the closer they are.

this way you have a range indicator and prestacking longer durations wont avoid it. we already do hear our own footsteps so putting an effect over it, to alter it a bit looks to me it is likely not 'too much to do'

 

why i dont think 5s max stealth with force reveal or unstackable stealth etc is likely to happen:

stealth effects have their duration balanced around the resource investment. limiting their effective duration with unstackable or max duration will make those skills/actions not always behave the same, therefor clunky and very difficult to balance as their effect will vary too much on a profession with so many stealth sources as a thief. your skills would basically work against each other by rendering the effect of another skill of yours useless. you probably would feel like fighting your own mechanics more than the opponent. wich then again bears the question why bother to invest into stealth with the other options at hand?

[apharma.3741]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > You did see how the guy hit me for 200 under my health right, I had no idea he was around till he hit me at a sentry and there was no way to know he was there because **rifle has no tells on it's stealth**.

> > >

> > > while the wiki says trying to dodge without endurance causes your character to shout a line depening on race, i am pretty certain it also does it when you just normally dodge sometimes, very rarely. so it has an RNG audio tell , like the mark (hidden thief) and using stolen skill (stealth above 5 malice).

> > > i know , i know not really reliable tells :3

> > > one could add a universal audio tell for gaining a stack of stealth, with that you wouldnt need to give the exact stealthed position away rendering stealth rather useless but the target would always have a warning of someone stacking stealth regardless of FoV or method used for stealth.

> > >

> > > i dont think its likely that on the damage part itself we will see changes as those would be nerfs to core thief. both base backstab + assassins signet are core thief afterall. and i personally dont think its damage keeping the thief (specifically deadeye) in a good position for roaming, its stealth. i would even say thief damage / sustain is overal relatively low atm outside stealth. being able to fight on your terms when utilizing stealth however compensates for it. thats why i think its pretty hard to change anything about the thief atm without a complete rework or making it unviable (considering the alternatives). adding an audifo tell to stealth you still fight on your terms and control the flow of the fight, but no longer against mostly unaware opponents.

> > > i do sometimes utilize such a backstab to kill an unaware squishy opponents, yet i do think deadeye doesnt need it to do fine. its not worth the effort trying to do that backstab against an opponent aware of your presence and usually too risky. this suggestion here i think would go a long way in reducing the efficiency of this specific usage of the involved tools, without interfering too much in other ways of using them.

> > > but then again having played too much deadeye i am certainly biased and mostly see the deadeyes PoV not the targets, what do you think would a universal audio tell for gaining a stack of stealth help you in such a situation?

> > >

> >

> > I think no-one should be able to sit in permanent stealth. I know you love to do that but it's not fun on the receiving end and it's not fun to play against, I know that would mean you quit the game and while that does sadden me some what the game will be healthier for not having this mechanic or perma stealth. Stealth should be limited to 5s max, yes retune all the skills affected like Mass Invis and Shadow Refuge but there should be a limit and a time of forced reveal and no way around that.

>

> for whatever reason that answer was removed, you swapped to personal so i answered in that manner. anyway next try personal wall of text:

> no i will not quit because of it, i do not feel tied to a specific profession and like to play all of them except warrior. i am just thief 'main' by playtime on my thieves as they were for the vast majority of the games history #1 solo roamer, mainly due to stealth. if that changes however, nothing will stop me from playing my mesmer (i actually have more mesmers than thieves) , soulbeast, holo etc. when i feel like thief is no longer the optimal choice for what i have in mind to do.

> the only thing where i need permastealth and do use it, is inside enemy keeps/towers. on normal roaming encounters i often dont stealth till i know a fight is imminent (e.g. seeing the opponent, so they can see me too). however i havent been doing the hiding in keeps/towers much since the changes to mark as i see it as a sign from anet that its not really an intended playstyle. (this match only once in fire keep so far!). so yeah its not much i personally would lose. i didnt even spent half my roaming time this match on thief and most of it on mesmer.

>

> BTT:

> in your now removed answer to my answer you mentioned that my suggestion mainly lacks an indicator of range and longer stacked stealth can still avoid that tell.

> next suggestion:

> as i still prefer an audio tell and see it more likely to happen than a max stealth duration, how about: you hear your opponents footsteps while they are in stealth, louder the closer they are.

> this way you have a range indicator and prestacking longer durations wont avoid it. we already do hear our own footsteps so putting an effect over it, to alter it a bit looks to me it is likely not 'too much to do'

>

> why i dont think 5s max stealth with force reveal or unstackable stealth etc is likely to happen:

> stealth effects have their duration balanced around the resource investment. limiting their effective duration with unstackable or max duration will make those skills/actions not always behave the same, therefor clunky and very difficult to balance as their effect will vary too much on a profession with so many stealth sources as a thief. your skills would basically work against each other by rendering the effect of another skill of yours useless. you probably would feel like fighting your own mechanics more than the opponent. wich then again bears the question why bother to invest into stealth with the other options at hand?

 

Oh it has been removed, strange I usually get a thing from the moderator saying "you quoted blah blah blah removed, blah blah blah no points". Anyway I wasn't making it personal I just remember you saying a while back when we talked about perma stealth you mentioned you'd likely stop playing if they ever stopped you being able to do it. If I'm mistaken my bad but I wasn't having a jab at you.

 

How does footsteps translate to people at range? We have DE that can triple shot you for 7k+, soulbeasts that can do crazy things like 17k autos, Coalescence of ruin my day or phase smash can insta kill thieves, eles and guards in marauder, thankfully revs can't stealth themselves but you do see it. I don't think the footsteps solution is really workable as it still gives no indication to a +1 from perma stealth till too late no matter how good you are.

 

If you reduce the max duration you have better control over the engage range from stealth, put simply it becomes impossible to stealth up and engage people without them having seen you first unless out of LoS.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

> @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

> >n suggest just removing 2 CORE classes cause you can't learn to beat them, cause YOU say YOU can't counter stealth, because there is plenty of people in WvW and PvP that in fact counter stealth all the time. What happens when they do remove stealth, and then you discover you can't deal with Guards and Warriors because of all the Blocks, Invulnerable, and Sustain? Going to ask for those classes to be removed? That's 5/9 gone. Eventually we'll be down to what, Necro only? What poor roaming class _do you play_ so we all know what we're allowed to play?

> >

>

> I am not just suggesting it, I think it is the only fair and sensible way forward.

>

> I do not care about warriors or guardians, because they don't shoot for 20+k damage out of stealth. Or jump in, do 17k damage, jump away, jump in a short while later for a second 17k hit.

>

 

Warriors, Guards, Rangers, and Revenants beat me a lot with incredible burst even when I can see it coming (at lot of it unblockable). What world/timezone do you play to never see these?

 

> Like thiefs or mesmers do.

>

> A LOT.

>

> So enjoy your broken classes you love so much. Because it seems you are only concerned about your own fun: hitting others who have no idea you are coming, then retreat into stealth, so you don't have to fear retribution.

>

 

That's interesting that you totally know my build, when in fact you don't. I have not been carrying a lot of stealth or running PU for a long time. Usually running boon support or playing my Ranger or Guardian.

 

>

> But hey, there is another way to fix thieves and mesmers and all their elites once and for all without removing them or stealth.

>

> Really.

>

> It is really simple too.

>

> Just divide their maximum, their median and their minimum damage by 10. And half their hp.

>

> You don't take any risks? Fine. You don't do any damage.

>

> THAT would be balanced.

 

You really need to learn to play, stop being so angry, and not expect ANet to remove 2/9 classes (that 2/9th of people _paid for_ again, you keep missing that) because they are playing what you think is badwrongfun.

 

If this forum would let me ignore your posts like I can block you in game, I would.

 

@"Gaile Gray.6029" - Would it be possible to get any discussions of Stealth on the same list as matchup threads? You will never get people that will not learn the game to stop arguing for some of the worst ideas about stealth out there...

[MUDse.7623]

WARNING: Wall.

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > > You did see how the guy hit me for 200 under my health right, I had no idea he was around till he hit me at a sentry and there was no way to know he was there because **rifle has no tells on it's stealth**.

> > > >

> > > > while the wiki says trying to dodge without endurance causes your character to shout a line depening on race, i am pretty certain it also does it when you just normally dodge sometimes, very rarely. so it has an RNG audio tell , like the mark (hidden thief) and using stolen skill (stealth above 5 malice).

> > > > i know , i know not really reliable tells :3

> > > > one could add a universal audio tell for gaining a stack of stealth, with that you wouldnt need to give the exact stealthed position away rendering stealth rather useless but the target would always have a warning of someone stacking stealth regardless of FoV or method used for stealth.

> > > >

> > > > i dont think its likely that on the damage part itself we will see changes as those would be nerfs to core thief. both base backstab + assassins signet are core thief afterall. and i personally dont think its damage keeping the thief (specifically deadeye) in a good position for roaming, its stealth. i would even say thief damage / sustain is overal relatively low atm outside stealth. being able to fight on your terms when utilizing stealth however compensates for it. thats why i think its pretty hard to change anything about the thief atm without a complete rework or making it unviable (considering the alternatives). adding an audifo tell to stealth you still fight on your terms and control the flow of the fight, but no longer against mostly unaware opponents.

> > > > i do sometimes utilize such a backstab to kill an unaware squishy opponents, yet i do think deadeye doesnt need it to do fine. its not worth the effort trying to do that backstab against an opponent aware of your presence and usually too risky. this suggestion here i think would go a long way in reducing the efficiency of this specific usage of the involved tools, without interfering too much in other ways of using them.

> > > > but then again having played too much deadeye i am certainly biased and mostly see the deadeyes PoV not the targets, what do you think would a universal audio tell for gaining a stack of stealth help you in such a situation?

> > > >

> > >

> > > I think no-one should be able to sit in permanent stealth. I know you love to do that but it's not fun on the receiving end and it's not fun to play against, I know that would mean you quit the game and while that does sadden me some what the game will be healthier for not having this mechanic or perma stealth. Stealth should be limited to 5s max, yes retune all the skills affected like Mass Invis and Shadow Refuge but there should be a limit and a time of forced reveal and no way around that.

> >

> > for whatever reason that answer was removed, you swapped to personal so i answered in that manner. anyway next try personal wall of text:

> > no i will not quit because of it, i do not feel tied to a specific profession and like to play all of them except warrior. i am just thief 'main' by playtime on my thieves as they were for the vast majority of the games history #1 solo roamer, mainly due to stealth. if that changes however, nothing will stop me from playing my mesmer (i actually have more mesmers than thieves) , soulbeast, holo etc. when i feel like thief is no longer the optimal choice for what i have in mind to do.

> > the only thing where i need permastealth and do use it, is inside enemy keeps/towers. on normal roaming encounters i often dont stealth till i know a fight is imminent (e.g. seeing the opponent, so they can see me too). however i havent been doing the hiding in keeps/towers much since the changes to mark as i see it as a sign from anet that its not really an intended playstyle. (this match only once in fire keep so far!). so yeah its not much i personally would lose. i didnt even spent half my roaming time this match on thief and most of it on mesmer.

> >

> > BTT:

> > in your now removed answer to my answer you mentioned that my suggestion mainly lacks an indicator of range and longer stacked stealth can still avoid that tell.

> > next suggestion:

> > as i still prefer an audio tell and see it more likely to happen than a max stealth duration, how about: you hear your opponents footsteps while they are in stealth, louder the closer they are.

> > this way you have a range indicator and prestacking longer durations wont avoid it. we already do hear our own footsteps so putting an effect over it, to alter it a bit looks to me it is likely not 'too much to do'

> >

> > why i dont think 5s max stealth with force reveal or unstackable stealth etc is likely to happen:

> > stealth effects have their duration balanced around the resource investment. limiting their effective duration with unstackable or max duration will make those skills/actions not always behave the same, therefor clunky and very difficult to balance as their effect will vary too much on a profession with so many stealth sources as a thief. your skills would basically work against each other by rendering the effect of another skill of yours useless. you probably would feel like fighting your own mechanics more than the opponent. wich then again bears the question why bother to invest into stealth with the other options at hand?

>

> Oh it has been removed, strange I usually get a thing from the moderator saying "you quoted blah blah blah removed, blah blah blah no points". Anyway I wasn't making it personal I just remember you saying a while back when we talked about perma stealth you mentioned you'd likely stop playing if they ever stopped you being able to do it. If I'm mistaken my bad but I wasn't having a jab at you.

during that time the only thing i was doing is hiding in keeps/towers, i obviously would have to stop doing that if stealth gets nerfed too much. and wasnt sure if i would be up to doing something else. right now i do roam more 'normal' and also play more PvE for gold and stuff (increased account value by 50% since mark changes, really worth it). i have seen several times people be like 'anet should nerf your build to be trash so you feel how it is fighting you now' , so i was just trying to make sure you dont fall for that train of thought, because i simply will play another build if 'my build' becomes trash.

> How does footsteps translate to people at range? We have DE that can triple shot you for 7k+, soulbeasts that can do crazy things like 17k autos, Coalescence of ruin my day or phase smash can insta kill thieves, eles and guards in marauder, thankfully revs can't stealth themselves but you do see it. I don't think the footsteps solution is really workable as it still gives no indication to a +1 from perma stealth till too late no matter how good you are.

they dont help with range. yet range only does onehit on first hit in a 1 vs 1 situation on a soulbeast who cannot maintain enough stealth to be 'out of nowhere'. the ranger basically has to know you are coming to prestack it out of your LoS . then again they could just use LoS+FoV without any stealth to do the same.

if you are fighting a group with people who stealth others, yeah well many professions dont have visuals from stealth like phase smash.

> If you reduce the max duration you have better control over the engage range from stealth, put simply it becomes impossible to stealth up and engage people without them having seen you first unless out of LoS.

indeed it would work for fighting against someone using stealth, thats now what i question. but there is always 2 players in the encounter. especially when asking for nerfs people often dont try to see that from the other side of the encounter. with reduced max duration, would you think anyone would even invest as much into stealth that it becomes relevant for them? you just use other tools as they are not as clunky and working against each other aswell as possibly much stronger now with such a new mechanic. obviously you 'solve' the problem by making sure one side of the encounter simply doesnt exist anymore. but it would be better to seek a solution that keeps both players in mind. and thats not just about thieves, basically most nerf suggestions only try to preserve the fun of one side instead of slowly taking steps with discussing to find an acceptable middle ground.

 

so for you to maybe understand my view: i actually to sympathsize with most complains against stealth. its just that most suggestions while not explicitly complaining about my main reason to utilize stealth, still do affect it. so i will keep trying to 'defend' the aspects of stealth i want use, this often results in disagreeing with suggestions based on complains that i would agree with.

as said now probably 100 times i mainly build for stealth to avoid certain fights entirely. but putting so many stealth tools into the build, the fights i do engage in are shaped alot by this investment. i dont 'need' ambushes and could do without the resets, if i had other tools in the build. i actually do agree with main complains about the current stealth: ambush and reset. those are things that heavily affect the way i play other professions. you cannot be too squishy or you will fall prey to an ambush and if your damage is too low the speed of stealth resets will make a variety of builds lose over time. also not to forget the annoyance factor, i dont want to know how many people i made ragequit for a day or more. but on the other hand i dont think using the stealth for the main reason i use it for (avoiding certain fight alltogether) is much of an issue, even if it would inculde areas in keep/tower as i then would only have 1 try on the lord and not like 'oups got spotted, back to stealth rotation'. thats why i want stealth to change and not to be just nerfed. i wouldnt mind it to be removed entirely as 'combat mechanic' but more as a 'role mechanic', obviously with a major overhaul to many thief things. for example making the only stealth access for thief an elite toggle (maybe signet category, working like a facet) this toggle grants stealth and the thief takes reduced damage, it can only be activated out of combat or even out of sight from hostile opponents. but it disables all other skills for the time being in stealth. when you turn the toggle off manually, your own damage is reduced by 50% for 3 seconds to avoid using it for an ambush. however if you do get revealed by other professions or whatever envoiremental mechanic you do full damage right away. this would preserve the role while getting rid of ambush and stealth resets.

but that would be a massive change that i simply do not see realistically to happen, and then again thats just me, there is some people who define solo roaming as a sperate 'mode' in wich than every profession needs to be able to perform well. i see it as a role that thief does and as a very selfish profession should excell at. while other professions shouldnt be just prey for the thief, they do not need to be able to solo roam with the same efficiency, wich mainly boils down to the potential to avoid engaging in some fights. the main reason some other profession do well in solo roaming is the lack of WvW population. its easy to avoid fight with mobility, if there is pretty much noone on the map and noone cares for the match to begin with.

i am totally oke with thieves being punished to picking wrong fights based on their tools. right now when you build for stealth its hard to pick a wrong fight as your reset ability is part of your tools. (!!! talking here about _solo_ roaming, small scale/havoc is a different role)

[Loke.1429]

for me this is not about a specific class or something like that, its feedback to anet that permastealth is bad game design, and that it makes me stop playing because its so boring to fight against. Its plain ol' broken. Some games have perma-stealth but reveal on proximity and I dont think I've ever seen a game that lets a player frontload so much damage from stealth and restealth so easily. It does the opposite of inviting fun reactive skill based gameplay, therefore i think it is rubbish

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I think predator style cloak would end most arguments and is usually what most pvp games do. Hard to see when still but if paying attention u can spot cloaked players while their on the move,maybe give them 25% movement while cloaked to help balance their low sustain

[Kylden Ar.3724]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> I think predator style cloak would end most arguments and is usually what most pvp games do. Hard to see when still but if paying attention u can spot cloaked players while their on the move,maybe give them 25% movement while cloaked to help balance their low sustain

 

Gee, that sounds familiar. Where have I [heard that one before](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67109/change-to-stealth-for-wvw-pvp-suggestion), I mean really, sounds [like Deja Vu...](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/59000/anet-impliment-simple-fix-to-stealth)

 

Huh, right on the tip of my tongue...