Airdive.2613 Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 > @"tinyreborn.1938" said: > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > @"Airdive.2613" said: > > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > > Dagger Storm is horrific to deal with as a necro, nec doesn't have the mobility to get away from the cripple spamming dagger storm, so the thief gets a free 8k damage everytime they use the skill. > > > > > > If this is your concern, why not use corrosive poison cloud? > > > > Because blowing slots just to handle 1 skill that 1 guy out of 5 on the enemy team has is totally solid decision making. I'd be shooting myself in the foot by compromising my capability to fight the other 5 guys on the enemy team. Not to mention that CPC is basically useless against the rest of the thief's toolkit. > > > > Any "counter" that requires compromising your ability to fight the other 4 guys on the enemy team is not a viable or functional counter. > I said that before ,you just waste your time xD And I said before that the meta builds do not account for dagger storm because it's not a "real" problem for the meta players. If you experience difficulties in your games, you're probably not playing well enough or the build doesn't suit your needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyreborn.1938 Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 > @"Airdive.2613" said: > > @"tinyreborn.1938" said: > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > > @"Airdive.2613" said: > > > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > > > Dagger Storm is horrific to deal with as a necro, nec doesn't have the mobility to get away from the cripple spamming dagger storm, so the thief gets a free 8k damage everytime they use the skill. > > > > > > > > If this is your concern, why not use corrosive poison cloud? > > > > > > Because blowing slots just to handle 1 skill that 1 guy out of 5 on the enemy team has is totally solid decision making. I'd be shooting myself in the foot by compromising my capability to fight the other 5 guys on the enemy team. Not to mention that CPC is basically useless against the rest of the thief's toolkit. > > > > > > Any "counter" that requires compromising your ability to fight the other 4 guys on the enemy team is not a viable or functional counter. > > I said that before ,you just waste your time xD > > And I said before that the meta builds do not account for dagger storm because it's not a "real" problem for the meta players. If you experience difficulties in your games, you're probably not playing well enough or the build doesn't suit your needs. Why should I listen some1 who wouldnt ever play good as me and only good on paper aka forum only? You are smart enough only to give bad advices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airdive.2613 Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 > @"tinyreborn.1938" said: > > @"Airdive.2613" said: > > > @"tinyreborn.1938" said: > > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > > > @"Airdive.2613" said: > > > > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > > > > Dagger Storm is horrific to deal with as a necro, nec doesn't have the mobility to get away from the cripple spamming dagger storm, so the thief gets a free 8k damage everytime they use the skill. > > > > > > > > > > If this is your concern, why not use corrosive poison cloud? > > > > > > > > Because blowing slots just to handle 1 skill that 1 guy out of 5 on the enemy team has is totally solid decision making. I'd be shooting myself in the foot by compromising my capability to fight the other 5 guys on the enemy team. Not to mention that CPC is basically useless against the rest of the thief's toolkit. > > > > > > > > Any "counter" that requires compromising your ability to fight the other 4 guys on the enemy team is not a viable or functional counter. > > > I said that before ,you just waste your time xD > > > > And I said before that the meta builds do not account for dagger storm because it's not a "real" problem for the meta players. If you experience difficulties in your games, you're probably not playing well enough or the build doesn't suit your needs. > Why should I listen some1 who wouldnt ever play good as me and only good on paper aka forum only? You are smart enough only to give bad advices Are you trying to say the players who come up with the meta are only good on paper? Because the meta doesn't consider dagger storm an issue, or else counters would have been included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yannir.4132 Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 > @"KrHome.1920" said: > The stability has only the purpose to ensure that no one interrupts the 1/4s cast time. That's a bandaid fix as the skill is meant to be an oh kitten button but on the other hand has too strong synergy potential with other skills when being an instant cast. I know. It's still pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyreborn.1938 Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 > @"Airdive.2613" said: I talk exactly about you . Who you are to tell me i'm bad ? You are nothing but a forum nerd that good only to give really bad advices . If you dont even understood what Crinn said ... rip > Because the meta doesn't consider dagger storm an issue, or else counters would have been included. Do you even understand how dumb that statement ? Re-read what Crinn said ,thats exactly why no one take extra utilities/runes/etc to counter just 1 skill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airdive.2613 Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 > @"tinyreborn.1938" said: > Re-read what Crinn said ,thats exactly why no one take extra utilities/runes/etc to counter just 1 skill And these extra utilities/runes are considered useless precisely because dagger storm is a non-issue. That's how the meta is established. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyreborn.1938 Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 > @"Airdive.2613" said: > > @"tinyreborn.1938" said: > > > Re-read what Crinn said ,thats exactly why no one take extra utilities/runes/etc to counter just 1 skill > > And these extra utilities/runes are considered useless precisely because dagger storm is a non-issue. That's how the meta is established. Just stop for a second and look what completely nonsense you saying . There is not even 1 single skill that forced everyone change their utilities and entire traitlines to counter only single skill . >. That's how the meta is established. . That's how the meta is established.. That's how the meta is established.. That's how the meta is established.. That's how the meta is established. Hahahahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamble.4580 Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 Does it not say evade attacks in the ability? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagg.9236 Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > @"Swagg.9236" said: > > My favorite counterargument to "this is overpowered and unfair: Episode 42" is when people suggest how absolutely never-used utility skills and weapons sets are the clear and emphatic answer to Dagger Storm. The even funnier part is when the only potentially viable answers to that skill listed within their cherry-picked, trash-tier argument are p a s s i v e t r a i t procs (highly skillful) which only a few classes would ever take for no other reason because they just happen to reside in "that one trait line with the really overpowered GM." > > > > Spectral Wall? Static Shield? What an absolute, legendary joke. The best part is that even if a thief is dumb enough to walk into a field hazard like this, they typically jus > Die often to daggerstorm? Lol Coming out of the other end of a dagger storm without losing any sort of big health advantage basically comes down to whether or not your build has protracted projectile mitigation baked into your weapon skills. Taking that sort of defense as a utility option often means ruining an otherwise meta build (otherwise why would deadeye be even remotely effective against a number of classes?). No one would take something like shelter, spectral wall, corrosive poison field, feedback, or something along those lines mainly because they just don't provide enough yield to justify them over something more broken at being a combat opener. And even if one did, those options would just get walked over by some stability spam boi or a soulbeast pressing a single button before 2. It wouldn't ever be worth It to take a counter to only dagger storm because not only does a dagger storm thief typically get away even if one manages to interrupt the 4s evade panic button with no wind-up, they often just escape anyway with teleports, stealth or more evades. So instead, thief just gets another free pass on mistakes despite already being able to spam teleports and thousands of damage while evading. It's not something that repeatedly kills; it's worse: it's a free, no-skill stall period which gives extra initiative, endurance and recharge time to an idiot who presses one button, and that's the same meta trash that makes this game such a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamble.4580 Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 How dare an elite be strong... it’s not like wars is... or grd... or necro... or mes... eng... wait maybe rng... ok just rev and Eles elite sucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 > @"Crinn.7864" said: > Dagger Storm is horrific to deal with as a necro, nec doesn't have the mobility to get away from the cripple spamming dagger storm, so the thief gets a free 8k damage everytime they use the skill. you keep refusing to take speed runes, relentless pursuit, or speed of shadows on the slowest class in the game for some reason. I know you dislike thief because they hard counter you but at this point you're just phoning it in Crinn , lel. > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > @"Airdive.2613" said: > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > Dagger Storm is horrific to deal with as a necro, nec doesn't have the mobility to get away from the cripple spamming dagger storm, so the thief gets a free 8k damage everytime they use the skill. > > > > If this is your concern, why not use corrosive poison cloud? > > Because blowing slots just to handle 1 skill that 1 guy out of 5 on the enemy team has is totally solid decision making. I'd be shooting myself in the foot by compromising my capability to fight the other 5 guys on the enemy team. Not to mention that CPC is basically useless against the rest of the thief's toolkit. > > Any "counter" that requires compromising your ability to fight the other 4 guys on the enemy team is not a viable or functional counter. Didn't see this until I posted but the point stands. Necro is slow, you can fight your hard counter by being fast as hell in shroud, and it keeps your slots open for the rest of your comp matchups. You don't even have to do that; Reaper shroud 2 destroys projectiles. A dodge and reaper 2 would mitigate a good part of the elite. Not that I'm telling you how to play your class, just that I know you know these things and you're kind of just ignoring them because you dont like thieves in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted November 27, 2018 Share Posted November 27, 2018 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > Dagger Storm is horrific to deal with as a necro, nec doesn't have the mobility to get away from the cripple spamming dagger storm, so the thief gets a free 8k damage everytime they use the skill. > > you keep refusing to take speed runes, relentless pursuit, or speed of shadows on the slowest class in the game for some reason. > I know you dislike thief because they hard counter you but at this point you're just phoning it in Crinn , lel. > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > @"Airdive.2613" said: > > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > > Dagger Storm is horrific to deal with as a necro, nec doesn't have the mobility to get away from the cripple spamming dagger storm, so the thief gets a free 8k damage everytime they use the skill. > > > > > > If this is your concern, why not use corrosive poison cloud? > > > > Because blowing slots just to handle 1 skill that 1 guy out of 5 on the enemy team has is totally solid decision making. I'd be shooting myself in the foot by compromising my capability to fight the other 5 guys on the enemy team. Not to mention that CPC is basically useless against the rest of the thief's toolkit. > > > > Any "counter" that requires compromising your ability to fight the other 4 guys on the enemy team is not a viable or functional counter. > > Didn't see this until I posted but the point stands. Necro is slow, you can fight your hard counter by being fast as hell in shroud, and it keeps your slots open for the rest of your comp matchups. > > You don't even have to do that; Reaper shroud 2 destroys projectiles. A dodge and reaper 2 would mitigate a good part of the elite. > > Not that I'm telling you how to play your class, just that I know you know these things and you're kind of just ignoring them because you dont like thieves in general. If you do the math, Speed runes still don't give you enough speed to escape from Dagger Storm. If you take the base combat speed of 210 and reduce it by 50% (cripple) you get 105, if you increase that by 99% (speed runes) you get a speed of 209 which is less than the base speed of 210. Thus even with speed runes I'm still slower than the spinning thief who gets a 100% movespeed bonus while using Dagger Storm. Which gets me to the general issue with speed runes. While raw movement speed is certainly advantageous it's not the necromantic grail that it's made out to be. You see even without equipping speed runes a reaper can get close to *most* builds in raw horizontal speed with just RS2 spam + swiftness. Add in the fact that terrain usually prevents most classes from using their horizontal mobility to it's fullest and you'll begin to realize that raw movement speed isn't Reaper or Scourge's problem. It's soft control effects specifically cripple/immobilize/chill. Most meta builds outside of Guardian have abundant amounts of soft control effects. I can't catch a Soulbeast not because I'm too slow, but because the SoulBeast has too much immobilize and cripple. I can't escape a dagger storm because too much cripple. Now you might argue that the extra speed from speed runes decreases the effectiveness of cripple and chill, and you'd be right. But at the same time I could also use that rune slot to invest in some condi removal and get even better results. Say for example a YSIM build with Shout runes where I can just use suffer or YSIM to clear the cripple/immob/chill when it gets applied. Now back to Dagger Storm. You are correct in saying that I could use a dodge into RS2 to negate the damage. But you also must consider how that effects the outcome of the fight. If I use RS2 to negate Dagger Storm then I may not have it to counter the thief's inevitable teleport disengage. Using a dodge is likewise problematic because there are other things that are extremely important for me to dodge. It's not that I can't counter Dagger Storm, it's that I can't counter Dagger Storm without compromising my ability to win the rest of the fight. Necro is a class that defends itself by debuffing and controlling it's opponent. Necro can't do either of those things against attacks that are covered by evade frames. Abilities must be considered within the full context of the builds they are used on and the matchups those builds will go against. Simply being able to trade against a thief required pushing necro's toolkit to the limit, and even then you had to content yourself with merely forcing the thief to abdicate the fight. With the new Dagger Storm simply forcing a disengage out of the thief is difficult. Additionally I'm not sure why thief even needs this. Dagger Storm has essentially become Elixir S for thieves, and the class really didn't need that. Thief already had plenty of tools for escaping or negating damage, why does the class need more? Dagger Storm gives the thief 4s of initiative and cooldown recovery while still allowing the thief to maintain pressure on his opponent. Previously a thief had to give up his ability to pressure if he wanted to recover. Dagger Storm essentially removes a vulnerability from thief and just enforces the meta of "the only way to kill a thief is to instagib them before they react" which ArenaNet supposedly doesn't like in spite of their obsession with adding evade frames to random skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParanoidKami.2867 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 You counter it by getting away from close range so it can't do full damage. Time it at the end and you can get a free attack as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dDuff.3860 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 ##stopthiefhate ##and_l2p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyreborn.1938 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Last comment is [like](https://imgur.com/a/wdl4mWa "like") ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dDuff.3860 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 > @"tinyreborn.1938" said: > Last comment is [like](https://imgur.com/a/wdl4mWa "like") ... you got my like for your art :+1: creativity could be better, tho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyreborn.1938 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 > @"dDuff.3860" said: > > @"tinyreborn.1938" said: > > Last comment is [like](https://imgur.com/a/wdl4mWa "like") ... > > you got my like for your art :+1: > creativity could be better, tho I tried ;( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 > @"Crinn.7864" said: > If you do the math, Speed runes still don't give you enough speed to escape from Dagger Storm. If you take the base combat speed of 210 and reduce it by 50% (cripple) you get 105, if you increase that by 99% (speed runes) you get a speed of 209 which is less than the base speed of 210. Thus even with speed runes I'm still slower than the spinning thief who gets a 100% movespeed bonus while using Dagger Storm. > > Which gets me to the general issue with speed runes. While raw movement speed is certainly advantageous it's not the necromantic grail that it's made out to be. You see even without equipping speed runes a reaper can get close to *most* builds in raw horizontal speed with just RS2 spam + swiftness. Add in the fact that terrain usually prevents most classes from using their horizontal mobility to it's fullest and you'll begin to realize that raw movement speed isn't Reaper or Scourge's problem. It's soft control effects specifically cripple/immobilize/chill. Most meta builds outside of Guardian have abundant amounts of soft control effects. I can't catch a Soulbeast not because I'm too slow, but because the SoulBeast has too much immobilize and cripple. I can't escape a dagger storm because too much cripple. Now you might argue that the extra speed from speed runes decreases the effectiveness of cripple and chill, and you'd be right. But at the same time I could also use that rune slot to invest in some condi removal and get even better results. Say for example a YSIM build with Shout runes where I can just use suffer or YSIM to clear the cripple/immob/chill when it gets applied. > > > Now back to Dagger Storm. You are correct in saying that I could use a dodge into RS2 to negate the damage. But you also must consider how that effects the outcome of the fight. If I use RS2 to negate Dagger Storm then I may not have it to counter the thief's inevitable teleport disengage. Using a dodge is likewise problematic because there are other things that are extremely important for me to dodge. It's not that I can't counter Dagger Storm, it's that I can't counter Dagger Storm without compromising my ability to win the rest of the fight. Necro is a class that defends itself by debuffing and controlling it's opponent. Necro can't do either of those things against attacks that are covered by evade frames. Abilities must be considered within the full context of the builds they are used on and the matchups those builds will go against. Simply being able to trade against a thief required pushing necro's toolkit to the limit, and even then you had to content yourself with merely forcing the thief to abdicate the fight. With the new Dagger Storm simply forcing a disengage out of the thief is difficult. > > > Additionally I'm not sure why thief even needs this. Dagger Storm has essentially become Elixir S for thieves, and the class really didn't need that. Thief already had plenty of tools for escaping or negating damage, why does the class need more? Dagger Storm gives the thief 4s of initiative and cooldown recovery while still allowing the thief to maintain pressure on his opponent. Previously a thief had to give up his ability to pressure if he wanted to recover. Dagger Storm essentially removes a vulnerability from thief and just enforces the meta of "the only way to kill a thief is to instagib them before they react" which ArenaNet supposedly doesn't like in spite of their obsession with adding evade frames to random skills. > Yknow what, that's fair in hindsight. While I am of the opinion that the evade frames/reflect frames provide a good counter weight/mitigation to being snagged by magebane or revealed by Sic-em without having to resort to shadow meld or being blown up, I can the issue with cripple -on top of- having the damage. The evades are nice. The damage tick on being in physical contact with the thief is nice. Could probably do with less or no cripple being thrown around. They already get a 100% MSI on using it. being able to reflect any projectiles being hurled at them while they retreat is enough. Maybe leave the bleed for condi jamming, idk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aktium.9506 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 as a necro when i'm not playing reaper i've honestly been thinking of replacing spectral armor with corrosive poison cloud to answer dagger storm. losing the lf generation and the stunbreak is gonna suck, but not being able to get away from 8-10k unavoidable dmg sucks even harder. and those slippery little shits always use it on the necro at the worst possible times. i mean, it's not a problem on reaper since you can just have spectral walk, wurm and speed runes and be the fastlord. but fatass scurgs waggling along just can't deal when some lad comes along and starts asserting dominance with the spinning t-pose of death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Aktium.9506" said: > as a necro when i'm not playing reaper i've honestly been thinking of replacing spectral armor with corrosive poison cloud to answer dagger storm. losing the lf generation and the stunbreak is gonna suck, but not being able to get away from 8-10k unavoidable dmg sucks even harder. and those slippery little kitten always use it on the necro at the worst possible times. i mean, it's not a problem on reaper since you can just have spectral walk, wurm and speed runes and be the fastlord. but fatass scurgs waggling along just can't deal when some lad comes along and starts asserting dominance with the spinning t-pose of death. I am half torn between feeling bad and going "HA!" because scourges usually answer everything up close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aktium.9506 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: >scourges usually answer everything up close. i dunno man i don't think there's ever been a time where i felt that being close to a warr, guard, holo or rev was a good place to be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now