zergkillers as a roamerteam

[xp eke xp.6724]

Hello everyone,

A long time ago i thought of a way you can use roamerteams to punish zergs, but we had a lot of problems to do so.

 

First of all a zerg got all boons, you can't corrupt/destroy to make the zerg long enough weak enough. If you can, your too close and you need a portal. So there is a big cd before you can try again and on worstcase you loose someone...

 

Second point was the downstate immortal for 1 second. Now that this point doesn't exist anymore we might have a real chance.

 

To understand how we do enough dmg even if a zerg got all boons we just take a look on lifeleech.

 

-> It ignores all defense, if you land a hit before. So let's go to the team:

 

 

At first we have a rev that has the highest liveleech at all:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQJAVinXMvNSum7JRZzVlst5rSY3cWJ4beskFOli9LOj0oNAKgE4vHHykE-jVSBQB67QAAgjAwVV/xsKBbquGOcBAWwDAoP7PEWlfBAOAO/8M/8Anf+5nf+5d95nf+5nf+5nf+5lCg0pWA-w

 

On second we need much Multihits and at best more liveleech:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNBjYD7kgXohXsjXwkXglXskHYPhglwUbJAUAaA5x377+dEpB-jVSBABXp8bhjAAAPAg+2fYiLAAe6GMTJIlq/oxBBIAwBw5nn5NP48zP/8zPvmf+5nf+5nf+5nXKAMXaB-w

 

At least a backup would be great:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoaVnMJCFNhNGDmPB8PhlhCjLAsBaAeDhgwRgvUuKnlA-jlSBQBA4IA0U9B67QAIk9HCrSvF8AAW4JAwsKBPm6PaUZQAgDgzbezPPw93f/93ffXf+5nf+5nf+5nf+gAQG-w

 

And know its math time:

If we got 3 rangers

- we have on using barage 12 hits with ~550 lifeleech

- Cause of Vulture Stance 12 poisons what means Predator's Cunning causes each poison ~250 lifeleech

- and at end cause of the thief we have one poison more and a lifeleech of the venom at ~500dmg

 

How much is the fish? Yeah its about 10k lifeleech each ranger -> 30k lifeleech with 3 rangers not going to be redused as long the zerg don't evade. Ofc powerdmg also do a little work

 

Oh did i told that we are on stealth and that combo last only 2seconds?

 

That roamteam also can be upgraded by 2 more rangers (as long thief and rev don't stay at Soulcleave's summit).

 

Can it survive a zerg?

 

Well as long the zerg don't have a roamcounter team in it or something like that it will survive.

 

Cause there is a second point the defense:

On 3 rangers we have:

- 50% snareimunits

- 100% moastance (66% boonduration)

- max range

- most boons perma

- rezz thief

- stealthcounter on 600 range cause rune of mad king (16 hits aoe as lifeleech)

- permastealth if needed

- ohh lifeleech also heals...

 

Ofc maybe you find a better synergy but i think it's already overkill and could change the meta next days ;)

 

If you have a video of the team on practice pls send me, cause I'm just a mad player without time and teammates :#

[Zero.3871]

> @"xp eke xp.6724" said:

>

> **Second point was the downstate immortal for 1 second. Now that this point doesn't exist anymore we might have a real chance.**

>

 

 

did i missed a patchnote?

[Justine.6351]

> @"Zero.3871" said:

> > @"xp eke xp.6724" said:

> >

> > **Second point was the downstate immortal for 1 second. Now that this point doesn't exist anymore we might have a real chance.**

> >

>

>

> did i missed a patchnote?

 

Can't remember but the invulnerable was trimmed for Spvp and/or WvW.

 

There really isn't a need for a specialized team build to kill one zergling at a time.

[LetoII.3782]

^

Especially someone else's exterior view of how that might be accomplished..

 

Especially when the central premise is lifeleech facetanking :x

[Dawdler.8521]

TL;DR is zerker rangers channeling barrage into a zerg.

 

Not sure why exactly this would result in "zergkillers" since a zerg would just walk out of it while healing wondering what just grazed them. I can only imagine this being effective when the zerg is already engaged 50v50. Not to mention coordinated anything will be "effective" in theory. In terms of a better surprise attack, eles with 3 coordinated meteorshowers would instead instadown people every second for 9 seconds. And if you *really* want to laugh... try 3 trap DHs instead and wait for them at every objective.

[xp eke xp.6724]

You forgot barrage is only one skill and if you use it on stealth there is still under 1sec reaction time + laag.

 

But the main reason this is that strong, is the small resources you need. At end for 5 players you get at worst case 0 kills but the zerg needs to react so you win time for your zerg/ base. At best case that team gets 10 players or more at 40 sec.

 

That's only cause lifeleech ignore dmg-reduction. So the 30k dmg on 2seconds stay 30k as long you don't evade. Normally you have 10-30% dmgreduction by armor + 33-40% by protect + condiimmunity.

 

All other roamers can't do that much destruction, cause normally you need to handle boons. If you rip them, they are on meele range and after 1-2 seconds the boons are back. So they burst maybe once all 60 seconds and you risc a wipe to get maximal 4 players... Thats not worth and the reason why roamteams never attack zergs. (till now...)

 

But a zerg can't allow to ignore this roaming group, cause otherwise they get smaller on time, too small to fight another zerg, survive the defenses on a base or get demolished cause that much dmg panicked the zerg.

 

So that group roams, defend points and slows zergs really strong for a small team and it gets more effective with 5 rangers.

 

Ofc you can dodge or create a counter strategy, but at end it forces to change the game.

 

A burst of eles or dhs aren't even close to that, esp cause zergs got too high defense by boons

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"xp eke xp.6724" said:

> All other roamers can't do that much destruction

Uh... other roamers dont need to use life leech. As I said *in theory* there are alot of things thats highly effective once you stack them and assume perfect execution of very skilled players. 5 mesmers could punch a hole in a zerg in a second at 1200 range *and* unlike your combo where the zerker rangers would topple over as soon as someone sneezed in their general direction (or kill themselves on reflect), they would also be more than capable of fighting the enemy focus, manouvering around the zerg, escaping the zerg or securing stomps deep in enemy lines, not to mention the psychological impact of looking like a 20 man with all clones out which could force the enemy to move against them, possibly leading them to make more mistakes. Can argue similar things for running all thieves, although they would be strongest in melee which could be an issue against a large zerg. 5 staff stompers wouldnt care about enemy boons, you cant mitigate 50-70k damage in a second... repeated a couple of times. However you need to get to that melee first.

 

In practice, WvW doesnt really work like that. Thats why people run in a safe and secure ball of scourges and firebrands throwing skills around hoping for the best. Its far easier. Its very hard to coordinate a focus group - hell even coordinating 2 people is next to impossible. Thats why we rarely see people doing it. Even those zergs with really good focus parties are often just a pack of good roamers, they still dont coordinate attacks.

 

But hey the easiest thing to see if it works is if you test it. Get your guildies to spec for it and post a zergkiller video.

[xp eke xp.6724]

> If you have a video of the team on practice pls send me, cause I'm just a mad player without time and teammates :#

 

Yeah i remember zergs aren't that smart every time to get perma all boons or getting trolled by perma dodge thiefes so on :#

 

But i didn't know that its hard to coordinate 3 rangers.. i mean we also have a rev that use his elite before they burst. Maybe i got lucky

 

Btw 5 staff thieves (marauder) with critt do ~50k aoe - protect - armor - trait - food... Single is ~70k - armor - trait - food

 

But your right, maybe it's still not needed, cause players don't play with enough defense stats xD

[Stand The Wall.6987]

theory is nice but a video is better :-)

[Trajan.4953]

Lol rangers. Always trying to grasp at crumbs.

[Optimator.3589]

Adding 5 more hammer revs to an existing squad and coordinating on the bomb is going to generate far more downs than some random rangers squirreling around.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Optimator.3589" said:

> Adding 5 more hammer revs to an existing squad and coordinating on the bomb is going to generate far more downs than some random rangers squirreling around.

*In theory*.

 

In practice those 5 revs could be entirerly useless ranger mains that couldnt handle a rev if their life depended on it, yet each of them could 1v5 on their ranger.

 

[xp eke xp.6724]

Theory don't lie, just practice can't be used everytime optimal.

 

Eg. A f1 rifle of a core warri, should never have a chance to hit a player on open field esp on a 1v1 or even be close to oneshot, but sometimes it does. And that's the point some randomness happend in the theory: like worser stats, no dodges so on

[Noha.3749]

idk i think the optimal zergbuster/killerteam would be something like:

 

Core Guardian - AoE Burst and good defense

Spellbreaker - Avrage AoE burst and great sustain

Reaper/scourge - Great AoE burst and boonstrip

Chronomancer - Best team utility.

Holosmith/scrapper - Decent/good team utility and great CC/burst.

 

A "zergbuster" needs to do great AoE Damage and being able to endure the backfire long enough to get out. I cant see some range pew-pew doing any better than a solid ball of death rolling over the enemy backline. This lil elitegroup would wreack havoc in the backline and leaving alot of wiggleroom for the "real" blob to utilize.

[LetoII.3782]

If you kneel down at 1200 range to channel a barrage in a 5v20...

You're gonna have a bad time

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"LetoII.3782" said:

> If you kneel down at 1200 range to channel a barrage in a 5v20...

> You're gonna have a bad time

 

Shhh.. take ur fax elsewhere!!!

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Ever since the trait was added, I have been curious if Collateral Damage applies to all Deadeyes who have marked the same target. If there are let's say 10 Deadeyes, will there be 10 explosions that go off when the player dies? Could be fun to troll zergs with.

[grave of hearts.7830]

> @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> Ever since the trait was added, I have been curious if Collateral Damage applies to all Deadeyes who have marked the same target. If there are let's say 10 Deadeyes, will there be 10 explosions that go off when the player dies? Could be fun to troll zergs with.

 

Probably it does,the thing is with 10 deadeyes you can just zergbust with shortbow 1 spam already.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > @"LetoII.3782" said:

> > If you kneel down at 1200 range to channel a barrage in a 5v20...

> > You're gonna have a bad time

>

> Shhh.. take ur fax elsewhere!!!

Yeah get your fax straight.

 

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

I remember when I used to lead a Calvary squad (zerg busters). One nerf after another made us less effective and my following lost their drive.

 

I miss those days :(

[Israel.7056]

You need to set more parameters for a thought experiment of this kind are you talking about trying to 5vx a properly comped zerg?

[xp eke xp.6724]

@ noha:

That team can burst if you can seperate a zerg to a max. 5man group or once if portal is ready

- you can't stay a group bigger as 15 man.

- the bursttime stay on theory only once all 80 sec without using the area to outplay on special places...

- the comander has to fail the zergsplit so not all gain boons back

 

Thats cause you can boonrip only on meele range and warri needs to use the elite at that range without much stealth options

 

@Letoll: its like on all bursts a question of timing. Like i said if you use stealth they eat allready over 6hits each ranger on barrage and you can cast the next skill:

- you also had 1 more multi shot

- elite burst that can be used on 2 ways: for having 2 hits on autoattack or one to burst all enermies (5 is the limit of the rune) on shoutrange.

- A rev that can hit aoe 20times on same range

- and even a deadeye that also burst heavy even as a "tank".

 

Do i really need to explain how all burst and pressures works? I show a little more of the potential if you want to read.

 

@Pterikdactyl

It works

 

@Israel

Allready done. Cause of stealth you can burst every 5 seconds, lets say 10 to be sure they're not too close.

 

At a zerg you have only thiefes, revs and mesmers that can chase you well enough but for that you seperate

them. Means it's possible to play around and at best case (next to get some downstates) the less mobile zerg needs to chace with the rest to keep them save (move away from theyr main goal)

 

Other classes that can teleport like ele or guard will die by small mobility after teleport as long rangers got the elite. Btw theyr burst will be healed by lifeleech completely back. If you don't scared/ get them, you will need 20 sec longer to get the cd of your backup then theyr port (maybe the only chance to stay a little longer stealthed if you want to play save)

 

So on all datas a zerg on 15 mates gets demolished at fastest on most areas by this build on less then 5 mins if they don't get at time on theyr base. But thats not the strength.

 

That team can also burst against 20-50* man-zergs with the smallest cds on the different bursts, without needing to splitt them by different mapareas. (* Look forward to see reasons)

 

Like i calculated, with 3 rangers:

- your on 30k liveleech on barrage (aoe), with poison and venom. (30-24 sec cd)

- on 18k lifeleech by rapid fire without poison, 27k with (10-8 sec cd)

- 1,5k lifeleech by autoattack without poison. 2,4k with poison and 7,2k with active elite stance

- 27k lifeleech if you time the elite of rangers (aoe) without poison, 41k with (60 sec cd cd)

- all 30 seconds you have unblock for smart zergs with reflect

- hunterscall 27k lifeleech without poison, 41k with (30 sec cd)

 

Btw we still don't talked about the powerdmg on top or rev and thief doing more then grew the lifeleechdmg .....

 

So that's like:

- the same dmg a boonrip-team does on max 20 man zergs if the lifeleech team bursts once instead of potentialy 3x and gets permanently reflected

- or the same dmg if the boonrip team waits on theyr spots to get a chance of the same dmg without a wipe....

- But that lifeleech-team can also attack bigger zergs up to maybe 40-50 man*, that would mean a wipe for all other roamerteams. (*Depending on how much rangers you use, like said: its possible to have up to 5 rangers at the team for maximal penetration and a even better bursttime)

- To defence a castle it gets even stronger, cause if they don't get at time the door, the zerg needs to leave/ gets down.

 

So it kills the zerg or it force a zerg to learn new strategies to play around it. It's not completely op as it might look, but it's the only way to punish also a 25+ zerg, thanks to the lifeleech. That's completely new to roamteams, or the wvw at all.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"xp eke xp.6724" said:

> @ noha:

> That team can burst if you can seperate a zerg to a max. 5man group or once if portal is ready

> - you can't stay a group bigger as 15 man.

> - the bursttime stay on theory only once all 80 sec without using the area to outplay on special places...

> - the comander has to fail the zergsplit so not all gain boons back

>

> Thats cause you can boonrip only on meele range and warri needs to use the elite at that range without much stealth options

>

> @Letoll: its like on all bursts a question of timing. Like i said if you use stealth they eat allready over 6hits each ranger on barrage and you can cast the next skill:

> - you also had 1 more multi shot

> - elite burst that can be used on 2 ways: for having 2 hits on autoattack or one to burst all enermies (5 is the limit of the rune) on shoutrange.

> - A rev that can hit aoe 20times on same range

> - and even a deadeye that also burst heavy even as a "tank".

>

> Do i really need to explain how all burst and pressures works? I show a little more of the potential if you want to read.

>

> @Pterikdactyl

> It works

>

> @Israel

> Allready done. Cause of stealth you can burst every 5 seconds, lets say 10 to be sure they're not too close.

>

> At a zerg you have only thiefes, revs and mesmers that can chase you well enough but for that you seperate

> them. Means it's possible to play around and at best case (next to get some downstates) the less mobile zerg needs to chace with the rest to keep them save (move away from theyr main goal)

>

> Other classes that can teleport like ele or guard will die by small mobility after teleport as long rangers got the elite. Btw theyr burst will be healed by lifeleech completely back. If you don't scared/ get them, you will need 20 sec longer to get the cd of your backup then theyr port (maybe the only chance to stay a little longer stealthed if you want to play save)

>

> So on all datas a zerg on 15 mates gets demolished at fastest on most areas by this build on less then 5 mins if they don't get at time on theyr base. But thats not the strength.

>

> That team can also burst against 20-50* man-zergs with the smallest cds on the different bursts, without needing to splitt them by different mapareas. (* Look forward to see reasons)

>

> Like i calculated, with 3 rangers:

> - your on 30k liveleech on barrage (aoe), with poison and venom. (30-24 sec cd)

> - on 18k lifeleech by rapid fire without poison, 27k with (10-8 sec cd)

> - 1,5k lifeleech by autoattack without poison. 2,4k with poison and 7,2k with active elite stance

> - 27k lifeleech if you time the elite of rangers (aoe) without poison, 41k with (60 sec cd cd)

> - all 30 seconds you have unblock for smart zergs with reflect

> - hunterscall 27k lifeleech without poison, 41k with (30 sec cd)

>

> Btw we still don't talked about the powerdmg on top or rev and thief doing more then grew the lifeleechdmg .....

>

> So that's like:

> - the same dmg a boonrip-team does on max 20 man zergs if the lifeleech team bursts once instead of potentialy 3x and gets permanently reflected

> - or the same dmg if the boonrip team waits on theyr spots to get a chance of the same dmg without a wipe....

> - But that lifeleech-team can also attack bigger zergs up to maybe 40-50 man*, that would mean a wipe for all other roamerteams. (*Depending on how much rangers you use, like said: its possible to have up to 5 rangers at the team for maximal penetration and a even better bursttime)

> - To defence a castle it gets even stronger, cause if they don't get at time the door, the zerg needs to leave/ gets down.

>

> So it kills the zerg or it force a zerg to learn new strategies to play around it. It's not completely op as it might look, but it's the only way to punish also a 25+ zerg, thanks to the lifeleech. That's completely new to roamteams, or the wvw at all.

 

Which again leads to the question: do you have clips of this in action in WvW where a 5 man wipes 50 man? Does it work *in practice*?

[xp eke xp.6724]

I think you'll need 7 for being strong enough to get a 50 man zerg small at time.

 

5 for 20-30

6 for 30-40

7 for 40-50

 

In my opinion, cause you need on 1 min.:

- 7-10 kills on 20-30 players

- 9-12 kills on 30-40 players

- 10-15 kills on 40-50 players

 

And im really sry, that i can't show that by a clip. I don't have that option, i can only hope someone likes the idea and try it out while recording.

 

The practice is simple, cause rev need to use the elite and after that the rangers spike. If you know the distance and how long it needs to refresh the rev skill you get the offence.

 

Maybe you need a system to don't over stance like every ranger count after casting the basic stances depending on how you want to manage the cd-time.

 

only rev need to know if he can autoattack with rangers or not, cause if he falls the thief may not handle it anytime.

 

Thief also has a few options: rezzing, stealth after a burst, fokus on teleporting enemies and snare them. He also can be anoying by dace with choking gas

 

At all it's beginner friendly, cause of that healing, stealth and save range. I would say its one of the savest and easyest teamroam builds, it gets easyer as bigger the team is (up to 7) and you can start with small zergs cause 50 players should be not that easy at start xD

 

Stealth can be more complicated on 6-7 mates.

 

Oh and on 5 rangers you have a 30 sec one wolf pack (minimal) so you double at that time the burst option and can give up the rune of madking (on your own risk!)

[UmbraNoctis.1907]

Your numbers are wrong. Thief venoms have only a few charges and will hit each player only once. Their dmg is negligible in an aoe situation. Barrage hits 2x per second, so with the leeching from rev and predators cunning you are looking at about 1,4k life leech dmg per second. Multiply by 3 and it becomes 4,2k/s. Not impressive at all, especially when considering that the dmg will be spread among different players, because of the aoe cap and constant movement. This combo will only tickle an average zerg, even if you add additional skills and the power dmg itself. Meanwhile 50 people only need to sneeze into your direction once and your "zergkillers" willl be dead on the ground.

 

Aoe caps and the downstate mechanic favour numbers too much for 5-10 vs 50 to be a thing, no matter the classes, builds and skill(s).