Astralporing.1957 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Dioskur.1743" said: > As I said there many ppl like me who: don't have 1hr to group up than 1hr trying/failing becouse someone fails and another 1hr grouping again again… and having regular raiding guild is out question as well bescoue of inconsistent free time - in the end I am kicked sooner or later becouse of being 1 month offline. > > In the end raiding is like second job, because if I want to raid I need consistent schedule guild raiding and I can’t afford that. There are times that I can play all night long but as I said it’s random. You can't say it is not at least partly true for some ppl - and some I mean quite many. No hate really. Just life changes :) > Oh, but that's precisely where the difficulty of raids comes from. It's not like they are a challenge of individual skill - they are not. The real limiting factor in raids is (and always was) the ability and willingness to treat them as a second job. Nothing more and nothing less. And it's exactly what many raiders want. This way, they can have their "challenge", without actually needing to worry whether it will end up too hard for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dioskur.1743 Posted November 29, 2018 Author Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Dioskur.1743" said: > > As I said there many ppl like me who: don't have 1hr to group up than 1hr trying/failing becouse someone fails and another 1hr grouping again again… and having regular raiding guild is out question as well bescoue of inconsistent free time - in the end I am kicked sooner or later becouse of being 1 month offline. > > > > In the end raiding is like second job, because if I want to raid I need consistent schedule guild raiding and I can’t afford that. There are times that I can play all night long but as I said it’s random. You can't say it is not at least partly true for some ppl - and some I mean quite many. No hate really. Just life changes :) > > > > Oh, but that's precisely where the difficulty of raids comes from. It's not like they are a challenge of individual skill - they are not. The real limiting factor in raids is (and always was) the ability and willingness to treat them as a second job. Nothing more and nothing less. > > And it's exactly what many raiders want. This way, they can have their "challenge", without actually needing to worry whether it will end up too hard for them. This post is... so true. Best post in this topic xD. Thank You very much :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Dioskur.1743" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Dioskur.1743" said: > > > As I said there many ppl like me who: don't have 1hr to group up than 1hr trying/failing becouse someone fails and another 1hr grouping again again… and having regular raiding guild is out question as well bescoue of inconsistent free time - in the end I am kicked sooner or later becouse of being 1 month offline. > > > > > > In the end raiding is like second job, because if I want to raid I need consistent schedule guild raiding and I can’t afford that. There are times that I can play all night long but as I said it’s random. You can't say it is not at least partly true for some ppl - and some I mean quite many. No hate really. Just life changes :) > > > > > > > Oh, but that's precisely where the difficulty of raids comes from. It's not like they are a challenge of individual skill - they are not. The real limiting factor in raids is (and always was) the ability and willingness to treat them as a second job. Nothing more and nothing less. > > > > And it's exactly what many raiders want. This way, they can have their "challenge", without actually needing to worry whether it will end up too hard for them. > > This post is... so true. Best post in this topic xD. Thank You very much :) It’s not entirely true though. It takes skill to learn and execute the mechanics in a team-based setting. Simply treating it as a second job doesn’t mean that you’ll succeed. Those that are proficient at raids complete them fairly quickly so I’d hardly consider that as a second job as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dioskur.1743 Posted November 29, 2018 Author Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Dioskur.1743" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Dioskur.1743" said: > > > > As I said there many ppl like me who: don't have 1hr to group up than 1hr trying/failing becouse someone fails and another 1hr grouping again again… and having regular raiding guild is out question as well bescoue of inconsistent free time - in the end I am kicked sooner or later becouse of being 1 month offline. > > > > > > > > In the end raiding is like second job, because if I want to raid I need consistent schedule guild raiding and I can’t afford that. There are times that I can play all night long but as I said it’s random. You can't say it is not at least partly true for some ppl - and some I mean quite many. No hate really. Just life changes :) > > > > > > > > > > Oh, but that's precisely where the difficulty of raids comes from. It's not like they are a challenge of individual skill - they are not. The real limiting factor in raids is (and always was) the ability and willingness to treat them as a second job. Nothing more and nothing less. > > > > > > And it's exactly what many raiders want. This way, they can have their "challenge", without actually needing to worry whether it will end up too hard for them. > > > > This post is... so true. Best post in this topic xD. Thank You very much :) > > It’s not entirely true though. It takes skill to learn and execute the mechanics in a team-based setting. Simply treating it as a second job doesn’t mean that you’ll succeed. Those that are proficient at raids complete them fairly quickly so I’d hardly consider that as a second job as well. that is also true ; I meant by this more of: scheduled cyclic organised activity somehow like job, you can be good at it or bad but I you want have sth from it you need some kind of devotion/comitment for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > It’s not entirely true though. It takes skill to learn and execute the mechanics in a team-based setting. Not really. Or at least it doesn't require any significant level of skill (some minimum is of course necessary, but it is relatively low. On some bosses can be _very_ low). All your skill really influences is how long it will take you to learn the encounter, never whether you will be able to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dioskur.1743 Posted November 29, 2018 Author Share Posted November 29, 2018 So in the end the final conclusion is mostly: Time I guess :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > It’s not entirely true though. It takes skill to learn and execute the mechanics in a team-based setting. > Not really. Or at least it doesn't require any significant level of skill (some minimum is of course necessary, but it is relatively low. On some bosses can be _very_ low). All your skill really influences is how long it will take you to learn the encounter, never whether you will be able to do it. > > You can say that about any content in any game though. Certainly someone’s skill influences how long it takes for them to learn an encounter. So does that mean there’s no such thing as a challenging encounter? Wouldn’t a player’s skill level improve as it’s tailored to an encounter compared to what it was prior to doing the encounter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > It’s not entirely true though. It takes skill to learn and execute the mechanics in a team-based setting. > > Not really. Or at least it doesn't require any significant level of skill (some minimum is of course necessary, but it is relatively low. On some bosses can be _very_ low). All your skill really influences is how long it will take you to learn the encounter, never whether you will be able to do it. > > > > > > You can say that about any content in any game though. Certainly someone’s skill influences how long it takes for them to learn an encounter. So does that mean there’s no such thing as a challenging encounter? Wouldn’t a player’s skill level improve as it’s tailored to an encounter compared to what it was prior to doing the encounter? On first encounters, perhaps, but that "improvement" slows down very fast. After you've done several bosses, any new one is not really goint to improve the learning time of the future ones by any significant time anymore. I'd say though that it's less a case if skill increasing, and more of a pattern recognition. Since the boss mechanics do tend to be similar, you can use your experience from the earlier bosses to deal with the new ones. In a way, you can skip part of the fight learning phase, because you already did it before, just on an earlier boss. You may call that skill, but for me it's not realy the same. Incidentally, a very good player from, say, fractal CMs that has never done any raid boss before may end up having to learn a new boss for a longer time than a less skilled player that does have an experience from other raid wings. Once that better player catches up, he's going to leave the other behind in the future, but initially all of his skil will be less important than that content-specific experience. It's something i have seen more than a few times already. And to answer your question, a challenging encounter is one you can never "learn" to the point of being reasonably sure of succeeding. One you can never do "on autopilot", one where you will always need to give your 100%, and perhaps even have to pass your normal limits. A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't derp out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted November 29, 2018 Share Posted November 29, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > It’s not entirely true though. It takes skill to learn and execute the mechanics in a team-based setting. > > > Not really. Or at least it doesn't require any significant level of skill (some minimum is of course necessary, but it is relatively low. On some bosses can be _very_ low). All your skill really influences is how long it will take you to learn the encounter, never whether you will be able to do it. > > > > > > > > > > You can say that about any content in any game though. Certainly someone’s skill influences how long it takes for them to learn an encounter. So does that mean there’s no such thing as a challenging encounter? Wouldn’t a player’s skill level improve as it’s tailored to an encounter compared to what it was prior to doing the encounter? > On first encounters, perhaps, but that "improvement" slows down very fast. After you've done several bosses, any new one is not really goint to improve the learning time of the future ones by any significant time anymore. Never said it would. The whole time piece wasn’t my argument in this to begin with. > I'd say though that it's less a case if skill increasing, and more of a pattern recognition. Since the boss mechanics do tend to be similar, you can use your experience from the earlier bosses to deal with the new ones. In a way, you can skip part of the fight learning phase, because you already did it before, just on an earlier boss. You may call that skill, but for me it's not realy the same. In most things, it is simple pattern recognition. Chess involves a lot of pattern recognition so does that mean that playing chess well enough to be successful doesn’t require any skill but just takes time? > Incidentally, a very good player from, say, fractal CMs that has never done any raid boss before may end up having to learn a new boss for a longer time than a less skilled player that does have an experience from other raid wings. Once that better player catches up, he's going to leave the other behind in the future, but initially all of his skil will be less important than that content-specific experience. > > It's something i have seen more than a few times already. > Different, although similar, skill sets. > And to answer your question, a challenging encounter is one you can never "learn" to the point of being reasonably sure of succeeding. One you can never do "on autopilot", one where you will always need to give your 100%, and perhaps even have to pass your normal limits. Most game enemies operate using scripts. No encounter is really truly random. Therefore, there are no challenging games? Be careful not to alter the definition of “challenging” to suit your argument position. > A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for. > > That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for. > > > > > > That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier. But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for. > > > > > > > > > > That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier. > But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice. > Again... a challenge does not need to remain the at the same level of difficulty over time. You're using a very narrowed version of what challenge is. Throwing a group at a raid over and over doesn't guarantee that they will succeed. Raids are not set up that if you spend X amount of time that you automatically win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombyturtle.5980 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for. > > > > > > > > > > That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier. > But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice. > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for. > > > > > > > > > > That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier. > But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice.> @"Dioskur.1743" said: > As I said there many ppl like me who: don't have 1hr to group up than 1hr trying/failing becouse someone fails and another 1hr grouping again again… and having regular raiding guild is out question as well bescoue of inconsistent free time - in the end I am kicked sooner or later becouse of being 1 month offline. > > In the end raiding is like second job, because if I want to raid I need consistent schedule guild raiding and I can’t afford that. There are times that I can play all night long but as I said it’s random. You can't say it is not at least partly true for some ppl - and some I mean quite many. No hate really. Just life changes :) > If you dont have time to practice and get skilled enough at the encounter to beat it then honestly, I dont think you should beat it. Its meant to be endgame and need time and effort to overcome. It sucks that you dont have the time and im sorry for that but we cant have every single piece of content, especially content designed for hardcore players, doable by people who have 30mins per day to play. Like any game, if you want to really get good and beat the hardest stuff, you need to put in the time and effort. You say some nights you can play all night. Create your own group and practice all night then if you really want to beat the raid. Even if you dont kill it, you will learn alot and be better next time you can play multiple hours. It took me 3 months to beat my first raid boss. As far as easy mode, I wouldn't really care if they added easy mode as long as you get 0 LI from it, unique skins and achieves remain locked and the resources needed to program it are taken from the living world team and not raid team. I still think its a waste to invest in easy raids, and the mode would be dead in a month but maybe id be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier. > > But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice. > > > > Again... a challenge does not need to remain the at the same level of difficulty over time. You're using a very narrowed version of what challenge is. Throwing a group at a raid over and over doesn't guarantee that they will succeed. Raids are not set up that if you spend X amount of time that you automatically win. > You're right. You are not guaranteed to win if you spend enough time on raids. But if you spend enough time on raids _and are willing to play in a specific way_, then yes, you are practically guaranteed a success. As i said, while there is some minimum skill requirement, it is extremely low. The main factor is not skill, but willingness to play in a specific way, as well as an ability to spend enough time on it. @"zombyturtle.5980" Oh, i happen to have enough time, got my boss kills and legendary armor too. I am simply arguing with raids being a challenge. I don't see them that way. For me, they are simply _work_. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier. > > But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice. > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier. > > But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice.> @"Dioskur.1743" said: > > As I said there many ppl like me who: don't have 1hr to group up than 1hr trying/failing becouse someone fails and another 1hr grouping again again… and having regular raiding guild is out question as well bescoue of inconsistent free time - in the end I am kicked sooner or later becouse of being 1 month offline. > > > > In the end raiding is like second job, because if I want to raid I need consistent schedule guild raiding and I can’t afford that. There are times that I can play all night long but as I said it’s random. You can't say it is not at least partly true for some ppl - and some I mean quite many. No hate really. Just life changes :) > > > > If you dont have time to practice and get skilled enough at the encounter to beat it then honestly, I dont think you should beat it. Its meant to be endgame and need time and effort to overcome. It sucks that you dont have the time and im sorry for that but we cant have every single piece of content, especially content designed for hardcore players, doable by people who have 30mins per day to play. Like any game, if you want to really get good and beat the hardest stuff, you need to put in the time and effort. > > You say some nights you can play all night. Create your own group and practice all night then if you really want to beat the raid. Even if you dont kill it, you will learn alot and be better next time you can play multiple hours. It took me 3 months to beat my first raid boss. > > As far as easy mode, I wouldn't really care if they added easy mode as long as you get 0 LI from it, unique skins and achieves remain locked and the resources needed to program it are taken from the living world team and not raid team. I still think its a waste to invest in easy raids, and the mode would be dead in a month but maybe id be wrong. I think if they gave easy mode raids separate rewards then what is currently there, it may entice people to do them every week as well. I think certain achievements should be doable, such as lore books etc, where people just go in after someone has cleared the wing and finish it anyways. Any Legendary Armor components should be restricted to normal mode though, just like WvW locks the good stuff behind the high rank of 2000 and PvP locks it behind rank 100. That way there is still a reason to do easy mode and the carrot is still there for normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombyturtle.5980 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier. > > > But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice. > > > > > > > Again... a challenge does not need to remain the at the same level of difficulty over time. You're using a very narrowed version of what challenge is. Throwing a group at a raid over and over doesn't guarantee that they will succeed. Raids are not set up that if you spend X amount of time that you automatically win. > > > You're right. You are not guaranteed to win if you spend enough time on raids. But if you spend enough time on raids _and are willing to play in a specific way_, then yes, you are practically guaranteed a success. > > As i said, while there is some minimum skill requirement, it is extremely low. The main factor is not skill, but willingness to play in a specific way, as well as an ability to spend enough time on it. > > @"zombyturtle.5980" Oh, i happen to have enough time, got my boss kills and legendary armor too. I am simply arguing with raids being a challenge. I don't see them that way. For me, they are simply _work_. I meant to quote the OP but it seems forums messed up. > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier. > > > But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice. > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier. > > > But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice.> @"Dioskur.1743" said: > > > As I said there many ppl like me who: don't have 1hr to group up than 1hr trying/failing becouse someone fails and another 1hr grouping again again… and having regular raiding guild is out question as well bescoue of inconsistent free time - in the end I am kicked sooner or later becouse of being 1 month offline. > > > > > > In the end raiding is like second job, because if I want to raid I need consistent schedule guild raiding and I can’t afford that. There are times that I can play all night long but as I said it’s random. You can't say it is not at least partly true for some ppl - and some I mean quite many. No hate really. Just life changes :) > > > > > > > If you dont have time to practice and get skilled enough at the encounter to beat it then honestly, I dont think you should beat it. Its meant to be endgame and need time and effort to overcome. It sucks that you dont have the time and im sorry for that but we cant have every single piece of content, especially content designed for hardcore players, doable by people who have 30mins per day to play. Like any game, if you want to really get good and beat the hardest stuff, you need to put in the time and effort. > > > > You say some nights you can play all night. Create your own group and practice all night then if you really want to beat the raid. Even if you dont kill it, you will learn alot and be better next time you can play multiple hours. It took me 3 months to beat my first raid boss. > > > > As far as easy mode, I wouldn't really care if they added easy mode as long as you get 0 LI from it, unique skins and achieves remain locked and the resources needed to program it are taken from the living world team and not raid team. I still think its a waste to invest in easy raids, and the mode would be dead in a month but maybe id be wrong. > > I think if they gave easy mode raids separate rewards then what is currently there, it may entice people to do them every week as well. I think certain achievements should be doable, such as lore books etc, where people just go in after someone has cleared the wing and finish it anyways. > > Any Legendary Armor components should be restricted to normal mode though, just like WvW locks the good stuff behind the high rank of 2000 and PvP locks it behind rank 100. > > That way there is still a reason to do easy mode and the carrot is still there for normal. Yes the lore achieves would be fine. If they gave separate rewards yes I agree it would keep people raiding. However doing so would be getting into the territory of an entirely new game mode. You now need a dev team to balance the easy mode, and a rewards team to design and implement the rewards. I dont know where anet would get the resources to invest in that without severely impacting their existing release schedules which are already strained. I dont think enough casual players would be interested even in an easy mode, if they would have to wait an additional 1-2 months for their ls episodes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier. > > > > But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice. > > > > > > > > > > Again... a challenge does not need to remain the at the same level of difficulty over time. You're using a very narrowed version of what challenge is. Throwing a group at a raid over and over doesn't guarantee that they will succeed. Raids are not set up that if you spend X amount of time that you automatically win. > > > > > You're right. You are not guaranteed to win if you spend enough time on raids. But if you spend enough time on raids _and are willing to play in a specific way_, then yes, you are practically guaranteed a success. > > > > As i said, while there is some minimum skill requirement, it is extremely low. The main factor is not skill, but willingness to play in a specific way, as well as an ability to spend enough time on it. > > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" Oh, i happen to have enough time, got my boss kills and legendary armor too. I am simply arguing with raids being a challenge. I don't see them that way. For me, they are simply _work_. > > I meant to quote the OP but it seems forums messed up. > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier. > > > > But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > A 1v1 PvP against equally skilled opponent is challenging. A fight where you can learn your opponent to the point where if you won't kitten out you will be practically certain of victory is not challenging. It's merely an illusion of difficulty - something that pretends to be challenging in order for you too feel better, but in reality is something where your victory has already been planned for. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That’s an example of a challenge that doesn’t change over time. The majority of challenges are things that are difficult at first which you then overcome and they become easier. > > > > But was it ever a challenge, if you were practically guaranteed to overcome it with enough time? Raids in the end are not a test of skill. They are a test of willingness to play in a certain way. And that kind of test is not a challenge. It is merely a choice.> @"Dioskur.1743" said: > > > > As I said there many ppl like me who: don't have 1hr to group up than 1hr trying/failing becouse someone fails and another 1hr grouping again again… and having regular raiding guild is out question as well bescoue of inconsistent free time - in the end I am kicked sooner or later becouse of being 1 month offline. > > > > > > > > In the end raiding is like second job, because if I want to raid I need consistent schedule guild raiding and I can’t afford that. There are times that I can play all night long but as I said it’s random. You can't say it is not at least partly true for some ppl - and some I mean quite many. No hate really. Just life changes :) > > > > > > > > > > If you dont have time to practice and get skilled enough at the encounter to beat it then honestly, I dont think you should beat it. Its meant to be endgame and need time and effort to overcome. It sucks that you dont have the time and im sorry for that but we cant have every single piece of content, especially content designed for hardcore players, doable by people who have 30mins per day to play. Like any game, if you want to really get good and beat the hardest stuff, you need to put in the time and effort. > > > > > > You say some nights you can play all night. Create your own group and practice all night then if you really want to beat the raid. Even if you dont kill it, you will learn alot and be better next time you can play multiple hours. It took me 3 months to beat my first raid boss. > > > > > > As far as easy mode, I wouldn't really care if they added easy mode as long as you get 0 LI from it, unique skins and achieves remain locked and the resources needed to program it are taken from the living world team and not raid team. I still think its a waste to invest in easy raids, and the mode would be dead in a month but maybe id be wrong. > > > > I think if they gave easy mode raids separate rewards then what is currently there, it may entice people to do them every week as well. I think certain achievements should be doable, such as lore books etc, where people just go in after someone has cleared the wing and finish it anyways. > > > > Any Legendary Armor components should be restricted to normal mode though, just like WvW locks the good stuff behind the high rank of 2000 and PvP locks it behind rank 100. > > > > That way there is still a reason to do easy mode and the carrot is still there for normal. > > Yes the lore achieves would be fine. > If they gave separate rewards yes I agree it would keep people raiding. However doing so would be getting into the territory of an entirely new game mode. You now need a dev team to balance the easy mode, and a rewards team to design and implement the rewards. I dont know where anet would get the resources to invest in that without severely impacting their existing release schedules which are already strained. I dont think enough casual players would be interested even in an easy mode, if they would have to wait an additional 1-2 months for their ls episodes. If they went the wow route in terms of rewards, essentially it’s a case of having the same weapon but different colouring or different effects, like the weapon set released with Istan. That way your not creating brand new weapons for each wing, but alternate colouring and effects, much like the Super Adventure Box Weapons. As for how resources would be rearranged, I have no idea. Can’t comment on it really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > Not really. Or at least it doesn't require any significant level of skill (some minimum is of course necessary, but it is relatively low. On some bosses can be _very_ low). All your skill really influences is how long it will take you to learn the encounter, never whether you will be able to do it. From this post: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/113984/#Comment_113984 > Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. So instead of saying how hard it is to find 9 others to Raid and how it's a second job, how about finding ways to make it easier to find 9 others to Raid with? And no an easy mode wouldn't help with this. What's your proposal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > Not really. Or at least it doesn't require any significant level of skill (some minimum is of course necessary, but it is relatively low. On some bosses can be _very_ low). All your skill really influences is how long it will take you to learn the encounter, never whether you will be able to do it. > > From this post: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/113984/#Comment_113984 > > > Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. > > So instead of saying how hard it is to find 9 others to Raid and how it's a second job, how about finding ways to make it easier to find 9 others to Raid with? **And no an easy mode wouldn't help with this.** What's your proposal? That's the point we disagree on. But no, i don't have a magic solution. I fear that the problem i spoke of is the core feature of raids - it's not possible to change it without making raids something a lot of raiders wouldn't want. Notice also, that heavily restricted (whether directly or indirectly) accessibility is also a feature many raiders want. When everyone's special, noone is. In the end that's also what the real offense of easy mode would be (and why it's getting so much resistance). It would let the "unworthy" to join the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linken.6345 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > Not really. Or at least it doesn't require any significant level of skill (some minimum is of course necessary, but it is relatively low. On some bosses can be _very_ low). All your skill really influences is how long it will take you to learn the encounter, never whether you will be able to do it. > > > > From this post: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/113984/#Comment_113984 > > > > > Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. > > > > So instead of saying how hard it is to find 9 others to Raid and how it's a second job, how about finding ways to make it easier to find 9 others to Raid with? **And no an easy mode wouldn't help with this.** What's your proposal? > That's the point we disagree on. > > But no, i don't have a magic solution. I fear that the problem i spoke of is the core feature of raids - it's not possible to change it without making raids something a lot of raiders wouldn't want. Notice also, that heavily restricted (whether directly or indirectly) accessibility is also a feature many raiders want. When everyone's special, noone is. > > In the end that's also what the real offense of easy mode would be (and why it's getting so much resistance). It would let the "unworthy" to join the club. > Well its more that we would get 1 wing every 1½ or 2 years instead since they have to balance two modes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > That's the point we disagree on. An easy mode would help those that don't want to Raid to get whatever parts of Raid rewards are available in that mode. It won't help in any way or form players in "finding 9 other players to play -the current raids- with". An easy mode wouldn't increase accessibility of -the current- Raids, especially if it's implemented in a way discussed in this thread, allowing a group of 10 random players to be matched together and finish it. Now there could be a version of an easy mode that could potentially help, but I'm sure most of those asking for an easy mode wouldn't like it, as it's been said countless times that those asking for it, don't want to actually train or get better. That's not their style. So adding an easy mode is pointless in filling the goal presented by the developers themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombyturtle.5980 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: Notice also, that heavily restricted (whether directly or indirectly) accessibility is also a feature many raiders want. When everyone's special, noone is. > Whats your evidence for that? I raid and Id love for more people to become interested in raiding. Noone I know either wants people intentionally kept away from the game mode, unless they refuse to put in effort to meet needs of a group ofc. As long as the current raids arent compromised in any way to bring more people in, most raiders would be happy to see the mode grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 So WvW / PvP have established a bit of a pattern, that maybe Pve could potentially benefit from. This came up on the other raid forum thread as well. What if easy mode raids allowed you to craft Legendary Armor. Not the perfected Envoy set, but something that looked like the refined set. Right now if you hop into PvP and WvW you can start working on PvP /WvW Armor which can be created using the ardent glorious hero set (pvp) and Triumphant hero’s Armor for WvW, no real requirements other then playing WvW and PvP. If you want the real juicy Armor, Mistforged Triumphant and Mistforged Glorious Armor sets, it’s going to take some dedication, 2000 WvW rank and 100 PvP rank. These sets are competing with the Legendary Armor pve anyhow, and would still leave the normal mode for dedicated people to get the Perfect Envoy Armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Players would then demand a fancy skin to go with it soon after it was released. Same thing they did with sPvP and WvW versions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 Let them demand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted November 30, 2018 Share Posted November 30, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > Let them demand. That same thing can be said about those that want easy mode raids. So... “Let them demand.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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