Casiano.2705 Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 every time i watch 2vs2 stream via toker and sindrener, it seems that thief is getting weaker and weaker every patch all those sustain, boons, tankiness of every class outshines thief in every aspect if this 2 vs 2 trend continuous through and pushed going to ranked, where is the +1 outnumbering and decapping that our community still insist that IT IS the thief's role? IMHO +1 and decapping is not a good role, because everyone/every class outside thieves can do it. Mobility? are we still pigeon holed to this mobility argument? On all of my post, I'm still on a buff thief brigade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 The underlying issue with thief is all of the traits that make it work tend to be focused within a narrower range of traits or utilities like mobility, burst damage or stealth. When any of these removed OR compromised by giving other professions the same sort of access the thief hit doubly hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alatar.7364 Posted December 2, 2018 Share Posted December 2, 2018 > @"Oldgrimm.8521" said: > every time i watch 2vs2 stream via toker and sindrener, it seems that thief is getting weaker and weaker every patch > > all those sustain, boons, tankiness of every class outshines thief in every aspect > > if this 2 vs 2 trend continuous through and pushed going to ranked, where is the +1 outnumbering and decapping that our community still insist that IT IS the thief's role? > > IMHO +1 and decapping is not a good role, because everyone/every class outside thieves can do it. > > Mobility? are we still pigeon holed to this mobility argument? > > On all of my post, I'm still on a buff thief brigade. Indeed. I'd say stealth at start in 2v2 is very useful but that's one time use and Boonbeast using Smokescale can provide the same, it has two blast finishers + leap and the teammate most likely has some too. Considering the fact that Boonbeast doesn't need Owl in 2v2, it can just happily go Smokescale/Siamoth and replace Thief in every single aspect + the aspects thief can't even do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myboybuzzy.5809 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 The issue is people always cry about thief cause they cant fight it so we get nerfed into oblivion. Deadeye really didn't help us either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Za Shaloc.3908 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 It's been since pre-PoF that I have played thief, but man, it was kinda sad watching the 2v2 from thief PoV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanAlcedo.3281 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 Why should a class, whose only role in PvP is +1 and decap, be played in 2vs2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > Why should a class, whose only role in PvP is +1 and decap, be played in 2vs2? > > I know, outrageous isn't it :-/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasdamas Anklast.1607 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 Yeah, those deadeyes are truly outrageously weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casiano.2705 Posted December 4, 2018 Author Share Posted December 4, 2018 now that official 2vs2 tournament has been concluded, thief has now become officially a free punching bag. as i have watched top streamers, thieves don't even tickle anyone, toothpick power, not even a toothpick, its a toothpick with a rubber tip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alatar.7364 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > Why should a class, whose only role in PvP is +1 and decap, be played in 2vs2? > > That's the role _because_ it's weak. The point of this is; why a profession that was meant to 1v1 is the weakest 1v1 in a game and why the hell do people still think that this is OK, to have prof. forever bound to one role on top of the fact that it's the role crated because it's weak and not because it was actually ment to be +1/decap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanAlcedo.3281 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > Why should a class, whose only role in PvP is +1 and decap, be played in 2vs2? > > > > > > That's the role _because_ it's weak. The point of this is; why a profession that was meant to 1v1 is the weakest 1v1 in a game and why the hell do people still think that this is OK, to have prof. forever bound to one role on top of the fact that it's the role crated because it's weak and not because it was actually ment to be +1/decap. Im no expert on pvp but im pretty sure thar thief in balanced around +1 and decap and intentialy bad in 1on1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alatar.7364 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > Why should a class, whose only role in PvP is +1 and decap, be played in 2vs2? > > > > > > > > > > That's the role _because_ it's weak. The point of this is; why a profession that was meant to 1v1 is the weakest 1v1 in a game and why the hell do people still think that this is OK, to have prof. forever bound to one role on top of the fact that it's the role crated because it's weak and not because it was actually ment to be +1/decap. > > Im no expert on pvp but im pretty sure thar thief in balanced around +1 and decap and intentialy bad in 1on1. > > > > Nope. That is merely the result of screwed balance. Go in character creation and read the description for Thief. Then watch a stream of Karl McLain on introduction of Daredevil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casiano.2705 Posted December 5, 2018 Author Share Posted December 5, 2018 i still remember the days when in Spvp they are always afraid to be alone in their home camp, because a thief will always kill a player when they are alone. and then continuous nerf happened. thus the downward spiral to where thief is just a decapper where every profession is able to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 Clearly thievs need to just get better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix the One.4071 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 I think the highly glass wvw builds plays a role :) People (who are also glass) getting one-shot and have no time to react, then goes to the forum and ask for them to be nerfed, forgetting all the times they one-shotted that same profession. Granted stealth + steal can be hard to counted in a chaotic WvW-scenario, hench why it should never be WvW that dictated balance in the first balace, or be seperated from PvE and sPvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanAlcedo.3281 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > Why should a class, whose only role in PvP is +1 and decap, be played in 2vs2? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the role _because_ it's weak. The point of this is; why a profession that was meant to 1v1 is the weakest 1v1 in a game and why the hell do people still think that this is OK, to have prof. forever bound to one role on top of the fact that it's the role crated because it's weak and not because it was actually ment to be +1/decap. > > > > Im no expert on pvp but im pretty sure thar thief in balanced around +1 and decap and intentialy bad in 1on1. > > > > > > > > > > Nope. > That is merely the result of screwed balance. > Go in character creation and read the description for Thief. > Then watch a stream of Karl McLain on introduction of Daredevil. Im 1000% sure that PR talk doenst influence ingame balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alatar.7364 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > Why should a class, whose only role in PvP is +1 and decap, be played in 2vs2? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the role _because_ it's weak. The point of this is; why a profession that was meant to 1v1 is the weakest 1v1 in a game and why the hell do people still think that this is OK, to have prof. forever bound to one role on top of the fact that it's the role crated because it's weak and not because it was actually ment to be +1/decap. > > > > > > Im no expert on pvp but im pretty sure thar thief in balanced around +1 and decap and intentialy bad in 1on1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. > > That is merely the result of screwed balance. > > Go in character creation and read the description for Thief. > > Then watch a stream of Karl McLain on introduction of Daredevil. > > Im 1000% sure that PR talk doenst influence ingame balance. > > > If Dev in-game description of profession reads that its 1v1 and other Dev saying it on Stream doesn't actually mean that it was ment this way, then we can safely assume no profession was ever ment to do anything and no profession was actually even designed to be anything, as the only source of information about that are "merely it's creators" since the players are only the receiving end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Seems like due to constant nerf cry’s by the community whether because our favourite classes got ganked one too many times by thieves or because their playstyle didn’t agree with a lot of people arenet for some reason made a choice to listen and actually allowed whiners to thief into a class not even suited to the roles in its discription. Sure sindrener and some others due to way above average knowledge and skill can 1v1 decently but for most a win in 1v1 depends on if opponent messes up their timing or rotation. In a game that’s evolved through power creep to where it is now where so many classes have high burst,sustain and a plethora of invul and blocks classes like thief who don’t have highest damage and is rivaled by few other classes in mobility should be receiving some more blocks or deffensive options other than spamming vault,dodge to oviod by 1 or 2 shot or having to reset Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aleron.1438 Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 how do you check to see which thief included duo won a 2v2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > > Why should a class, whose only role in PvP is +1 and decap, be played in 2vs2? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's the role _because_ it's weak. The point of this is; why a profession that was meant to 1v1 is the weakest 1v1 in a game and why the hell do people still think that this is OK, to have prof. forever bound to one role on top of the fact that it's the role crated because it's weak and not because it was actually ment to be +1/decap. > > > > > > > > Im no expert on pvp but im pretty sure thar thief in balanced around +1 and decap and intentialy bad in 1on1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. > > > That is merely the result of screwed balance. > > > Go in character creation and read the description for Thief. > > > Then watch a stream of Karl McLain on introduction of Daredevil. > > > > Im 1000% sure that PR talk doenst influence ingame balance. > > > > > > > > If Dev in-game description of profession reads that its 1v1 and other Dev saying it on Stream doesn't actually mean that it was ment this way, then we can safely assume no profession was ever ment to do anything and no profession was actually even designed to be anything, as the only source of information about that are "merely it's creators" since the players are only the receiving end. > Dev livestream from a number of years ago with Karl - he said it right then the balance for sPvP was based around +1/Decap since it at the time was the only profession really dominant in that role, and how that role could carry a team. The thief is well-implemented for core game but the expansion powercreep is just too vast so its design crumbles since it's hard to make a mobile/evasive/stealthing high-skill-ceiling damage dealer have sustain or reliable/safe burst (which is what the game is entirely now) without being totally OP. The foundation thief was built on isn't compatible with other professions getting powercreeped versions of its tools. It's sad, but no amount of buffs will let the thief be balanced at this point. It's literally **solely** nerfing the other professions that can have any major impact. Which is also what I've been saying since HoT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > Seems like due to constant nerf cry’s by the community whether because our favourite classes got ganked one too many times by thieves or because their playstyle didn’t agree with a lot of people arenet for some reason made a choice to listen and actually allowed whiners to thief into a class not even suited to the roles in its discription. Sure sindrener and some others due to way above average knowledge and skill can 1v1 decently but for most a win in 1v1 depends on if opponent messes up their timing or rotation. In a game that’s evolved through power creep to where it is now where so many classes have high burst,sustain and a plethora of invul and blocks classes like thief who don’t have highest damage and is rivaled by few other classes in mobility should be receiving some more blocks or deffensive options other than spamming vault,dodge to oviod by 1 or 2 shot or having to reset I do not think the issue related as much to Nerf on thief as it is other Professions gaining tools that were once the Domain of the thief class. Stealth, Ports, mobility and burst was handed out like candy to classes that already had advantages in sustain , support and the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > Seems like due to constant nerf cry’s by the community whether because our favourite classes got ganked one too many times by thieves or because their playstyle didn’t agree with a lot of people arenet for some reason made a choice to listen and actually allowed whiners to thief into a class not even suited to the roles in its discription. Sure sindrener and some others due to way above average knowledge and skill can 1v1 decently but for most a win in 1v1 depends on if opponent messes up their timing or rotation. In a game that’s evolved through power creep to where it is now where so many classes have high burst,sustain and a plethora of invul and blocks classes like thief who don’t have highest damage and is rivaled by few other classes in mobility should be receiving some more blocks or deffensive options other than spamming vault,dodge to oviod by 1 or 2 shot or having to reset > > I do not think the issue related as much to Nerf on thief as it is other Professions gaining tools that were once the Domain of the thief class. Stealth, Ports, mobility and burst was handed out like candy to classes that already had advantages in sustain , support and the like. Exactly. You cannot spin advantages by leveraging these tools to outplay your opponent when your opponent has the same tools to outplay you, and just better stats to boot. In relation to core game, it's actually a pretty strong class; the thief has largely been given buffs in relation to the core game in its build options over the past few years with a few nerfs to overpowered traits/skills on its elite specs, but it's made irrelevant when it can be beaten at its own game by numerous elites on other professions. It really just comes down to nerfing a variety of elements of war/mes/engi/guard in their respective elite specs and likely turning DE down a few notches as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 I agree 100% babazhook, u said it better and with way less words haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riko.9214 Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > The foundation thief was built on isn't compatible with other professions getting powercreeped versions of its tools. It's sad, but no amount of buffs will let the thief be balanced at this point. It's literally **solely** nerfing the other professions that can have any major impact. > > Which is also what I've been saying since HoT. Not true. All they need to do is stop listening to whines and opinions based on feelings of some softlings. They have a massive amount of statistics available and can easily tune thief to be among (not above) the best 1v1 classes. Yes it means that some gimmicks will be going around and destroy paper builds and such but that is irrelevant and should be simply ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Honestly the any pvp aspect of this game is just horrible as far as balance in general and alway will be unless they balance each profession for each mode separately. I don’t know if it’s the balance team or the one who’s oversees final changes in each class but it’s like the balance team doesn’t play their own game or have anyone reliable to reference the changes because using a community helps but everyone rally’s for their own class screw the rest lol human nature. Anyway get tired of being a sitting duck on necro cus low mobility in faster pace mmo with just good damage no blocks etc, play thief for mobility mess up once and ur dead and if u don’t u still get out sustained, say screw than roll a Boonbeast and do zero damage for 2 sets of bursts on guard ,warrior or hollow smith and with all the booms still go 100-0 in 2 hits. Goes on and on lol roll whatever class u want and because of powercreep and very poor balancing effort their will always be a ton of things to complain that are op lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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