Please Remove stealth and rework thief from ground up

[Casiano.2705]

since our class hasn't evolved with time, and devolved with it

 

i propose to remove stealth and its stealth attacks.

 

make base thief access to super speed and defensive boons like any other class

 

daredevil will remain to be super evasive spec with no stealth access and or stealth attack modification

 

and deadeye will be the spec that has access to stealth and modified #1 stealth attacks

 

so in general, a new thief will have an updated description

 

"Experts at stealing and surprise, thieves move through positional shadow steps, disorients enemies, or steal items from their opponents and use them as weapons. Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which makes them very hard to hit."

 

and i would like to introduce a revamp on our steal (f1) (if anyone played a thief in an old mmorpg Ragnarok)

it will have a "Full Divest Effect"

 

where in Ragnarok it will remove opponents weapon, accessories, and armors currently equipped, But for Guild Wars 2's version, a full divest will be a unique effect that reduces an opponents weapon power, armor rating by 30% (or any percentage that you might agree on) like making them naked during a fight

 

or another idea from that same old game,

auto steal on passive updating our bar with a new f3 that will give us a lesser version of stolen items on f2, and an active "intimidate" (ragnarok has its effect "copies the last skill used against you")

 

in conclusion, only deadeye will have access to stealth to make it loyal to sniper/stealth mechanics

[Jack Redline.5379]

> @"Oldgrimm.8521" said:

since we are not able to do it i put it like this

 

DOWNVOTE

[spartan.9421]

Sounds more like an elite spec than a rework of thief. On top of that, anet would also have to rework daredevil and deadeye for this idea to work.

 

 

[Curennos.9307]

Remove, no. Revamp a little with more regard to having to commit (or not, but having to commit to not committing, as weird as that sounds - yes).

 

I'm fine with thieves having the opening shot/stab/whatever and starting out in stealth, even utilizing stealth throughout the fight, but they should not be in a constant state of being able to reset with near zero ability of their opponent to influence that.

 

Anet needs to take a good, long look at

1) How thief initiates fights

2) How long they can spend in the fight, can they pull off a kill, and if so what do they use to survive and what do they use to pull off the kill

3) Their chances of being able to withdraw/reset depending on how long the fight has been going on, and how their chances for survival in the fight itself vary based on their utilizing of resources that would otherwise be used to retreat.

 

And last - but more important - 4) How much interaction does the opponent have with the thief's defenses?

 

No.4 is, I feel, what makes stealth so un-fun to play against. The thief's opponent doesn't really get to have any solid interaction/back and forth with the stealth itself, beyond swinging wildly wherever they assume the thief was, and that's...tbh, utter garbage gameplay.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

No way. Stealth needs a **rework**, not removal. Allow me to copypaste some Ideas I like to spread around:

 

Stealth needs a rework to address its bugs, its issues and the problems it causes.

It can't be left as it is, because problems from it keep popping up. Eventually, something will have to be done.

But it can't be removed, and there's definitely no quick fixes for it, and changes should not just be done to nerf it. It doesn't needs nerfing. It needs fixing.

We need new mechanics and effects to address the problems it has for both those using stealth and those facing enemies with stealth.

 

At this moment I think it all comes down to 4 points. Here are the points and examples of possible measures to deal with them:

 

* Fix its bugs:

* When leaving stealth, players seem to load the enemy model right after stealth ends. Because of this, some people will take longer to see the model at all, and the model will play the animation for the current action from the start. So when it may seem the finisher just started, it may be actually ending, and properly timing interrupts becomes practically impossible.

* Losing any effect that gives stealth will often reveal the character even if they still have other stealth effects like Camouflage or Hide in Shadows.

* Reduce the duration of its full invisibility when fighting against players, while keeping its full capabilities against AI for the whole duration.

* The longer full stealth lasts, the harder is to tell where the cloaked enemy is. And that greatly reduces the risks of using stealth as both an offensive and defensive tool. Yeah, experienced players can deal with it, but the game isn't just for experienced players. It has to be intuitive for all and welcoming for newbies.

* The way to address this problem that I like the most is "Stealth Decay". After a1-3 seconds depending on the source of the stealth, traits and upgrades, stealth would go from completely invisible to partially visible. This partial visibility would be even more noticeable while the thief is moving.

* Decayed stealth would keep the player untargetable, and most NPCs and player-controlled AI would still ignore them, but players would be able to see them if they pay attention, as they would appear partially visible with a translucent effect. Even if they can't be targeted, AoEs, cleaves and aimed projectiles can still hit them, just like always. It'd be just a bit easier to know where to hit with them.

* Getting stealth from combos and other players would not reset stealth back to fully invisible, with a few exceptions. For example, Mass Invisibility would reset stealth on allies and have a skill fact that says "Resets ally stealth" , but Veil would not.

* Using skills and triggering traits that give stealth to self would reset stealth to fully invisible.

* Getting stealth from allied skills or from skill combos in a smoke field would not reset full invisibility, it would just reset the time of decayed stealth.

* And of course stealth from instance mechanics and environmental effects would have its own behavior depending on its purposes. For example, the stealth from WvW stealth fountains in Obsidian sanction would remain fully invisible for their whole duration.

* Add an adjustable factor for revealed other than its sources and durations.

* Revealed is an "all or nothing" mechanic. A skill either reveals or it doesn't. That doesn't leave room for adjustment and balance. One way to address this problem is a new "Suspicion" mechanic.

* Suspicion would be a stacking effect that is accumulated with certain actions done while under stealth. When someone gets a certain number of stacks, they would lose stealth and all suspicion stacks, and get revealed for the same duration as when getting revealed with a direct attack. Revealing oneself with a direct attack would also remove all Suspicion stacks.

* It would be accumulated from actions that should not reveal right away or if done sparingly, but should reveal eventually if done repeatedly, like:

* Applying or having DPS conditions ticking on enemies.

* Finishing an enemy

* Getting hit with direct attacks. Standing in front of someone to attack them while they swing a weapon has never been a good idea, but suspicion would make it an ever worse idea.

* Hitting with a stray projectiles that were fired before getting stealth, that hits after getting it. One may give stealth to allies, but they can't just stop a projectile already fired. Which means that without voice chat to warn them to stop attacking right before getting stealth, stealth given to allies firing projectiles is often wasted. These projectiles can't be made no to trigger stealth or that would be exploited. Suspicion fixes that by letting them hit just a bit from stealth without losing it, but not do it repeatedly.

* Missed attacks that hit nothing would give a small amounts of suspicion, like when spamming an attack without anyone in range, hitting the air; or someone moves away from the trajectory of a projectile, or moves behind an obstacle and the attack is obstructed. Missed attacks from being blind would give a bit more suspicion that attacking the air, but still a small amount.

* Attacking someone blocking or invulnerable would give a large amount of suspicion or reveal right away as always.

* Triggering traps and having your traps triggered. Stacking traps would stack so much Suspicion that it would always reveal, but it should be possible to use skills like Shadow Trap without sparingly being revealed right away from triggering it. Walking over too many traps even while evading should also reveal eventually.

* Revealed caused by enemies will not reset stacks of suspicion. Only receiving revealed from Suspicion or one's own attacks would reset stacks of suspicion back to 0.

* Shadow Meld would still remove revealed, but it would not clear stacks of suspicion.

* Add new a mechanic to allow for more stealth counters while keeping stealth's defensive capabilities:

* We can't have a lot of AoE revealing skills like Detection Pulse, Sight Beyond Sight or Gaze of Darkness because there are no counters for it other than Shadow Meld. Removing revealed is something so troublesome it has to be limited to an elite skill. If a mechanic was added to act as a 'stability' for stealth, that prevents being instantly revealed when entering stealth, that would be solved by giving a pre-emptive safety tool without giving more Revealed removal.

* For example, Unrevealable would be an effect given by some skills that cause stealth, but not all sources of stealth. Unrevealable would usually be seen in skills meant to have a survival or panic button use like Hide in Shadows, Blinding Powder or Decoy.

* It would last very little, like just from 0.75s to 1s, as it's mostly meant to avoid spam of revealing skills to be able to get away from danger.

* It would only apply to self, skills that give allies stealth and make oneself unrevealable won't make other allies unrevealable, with a few exceptions like Mass Invisibility.

* Revealed makes characters immune to Unrevealable like it does with stealth, so it will only work while not revealed or if the stealth skill giving unrevealable also removes revealed like Shadow Meld.

* Getting Unrevealable would also reset decayed stealth to full stealth.

* Unrevealable would not prevent being revealed by attacking enemies or from getting Suspicion, only being revealed by enemy skills.

* Stealth from combos on smoke fields would never give unrevealable.

 

With all these new mechanics combined, stealth can be made not to stack, but also last way more, having stealth skills that give 2-4s being able to give 10s or more. And even being able to make an Elite thief signet with a passive effect that constantly pulses decayed stealth and an active effect that gives stealth for 10s, and unrevealable for 0.75s.

At the same time, revealing skills could be more frequent. For example:

* Hallowed Ground could pulse 1s revealed, or cause it one time for 3s when cloaked enemies try to enter the area.

* "Nothing Can Save You!" could deal 6s of revealed.

* Rangers could get a Bat land pe and and a Dolphin underwater pet that have an Echolocation skill that deals 5s AoE revealed.

* An elementalist sand-themed pulsing AoE like sandstorm could also pulse revealed.

* Null Field could also pulse or cause revealed on the first or last pulse.

 

With changes like these examples, using and countering stealth would require more skillful play, rather than just nonsense like spamming around necromancer marks hopping one will trigger, or having your entire group gimp their builds bringing the few skills that reveal.

[saerni.2584]

Instead of just saying "no" I'll write a brief post.

* Anet is not going to rework multiple classes and an entire core game mechanic just because a consistent subset doesn't agree with their base game design. Deadeye was already reworked twice to improve its functionality (which also made perma-stealth super easy incidentally).

* Anet "might" consider a smaller adjustment. Examples include: adjustments to stealth stacking, introducing new abilities/mechanics that cause reveal and reductions in stealth durations for certain abilities/traits. This is how thieves suggested and got constructive changes to Deadeye after the malice rework.

 

An example:

* Issue: Stealth stacking has become easier and damage is very high. This results in more one-shots from relative safety. Players hate being killed with no real opportunity to react or mount an effective defense.

* Solution: Stealth stacking should be mitigated. Diminishing returns might be an acceptable compromise. First additional stack is full duration. Second stack has a -1 duration. Next stack is -2. This continues until each additional stack of stealth only lasts for 1 second.

 

In my example you don't have large development costs. You also target precisely the issue you want to address. If you actually just don't want any stealth (as implemented now) in the game or dislike the amount of damage being done that isn't really a stealth issue. All damage can be done from stealth (especially in team pvp where a single person can stealth the team). If you hate the stealth mechanic itself this isn't the game for you. If you think damage is too high then you need to advocate for decreases to specific abilities or broad nerfs to overall damage levels.

 

[Burnfall.9573]

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26980/thief-need-a-rework-like-memser

 

Some good suggestions there

 

For years, many of us have asked Anet for Thief complete design make over because the root cause of their problems lies in their core design.

 

 

" *For every effect there is a root cause. Find and address the root cause rather than try to fix the effect, as there is no end to the latter* "

 

" *The best way to solve a problem is to eliminate, or resolve, its root cause* "

 

'When you don’t eliminate the root cause of a problem, the problem will keep recurring.' The community has been dealing with same the problems with thief for 6 years;. By now, the continual approach of nerfing them are not providing any long term solution to thief?

 

Thief is an immediate threat to the community interest. You are fully aware and knowledgeable of their toxicity impact to the gaming community. The consequence has costs you of great loss all aboard including financial loss.

 

It is your responsibility to put your community best interest first than everything follows. The community are committed to you as long you are committed in resolving our concerns

 

Anet. Enough Please!

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26980/thief-need-a-rework-like-memser

>

> Some good suggestions there

>

> For years, many of us have asked Anet for Thief complete design make over because the root cause of their problems lies in their core design.

>

>

> " *For every effect there is a root cause. Find and address the root cause rather than try to fix the effect, as there is no end to the latter* "

>

> " *The best way to solve a problem is to eliminate, or resolve, its root cause* "

>

> 'When you don’t eliminate the root cause of a problem, the problem will keep recurring.' The community has been dealing with same the problems with thief for 6 years;. By now, the continual approach of nerfing them are not providing any long term solution to thief so why keep nerfing them instead of reworking them?

>

> Anet. Enough Please!

 

It still amazes me that after 6 years you haven't learned to deal with even the most basic things concerning thief. Also, constantly putting your own comments in quotation marks to make it look like your ideas have historical precedent or something just makes you look silly.

 

On topic, I'd rather just see a rework to SA to stop rewarding people for camping stealth and a removal/change of the stealth on dodge. That would fix things for the problematic specs while leaving most of the other specs well enough alone.

 

That said, I don't think this is warranted when deadeye is still considered one of the weaker elite specs and would be out of place without heavily nerfing the other BS stuff in the game right now.

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26980/thief-need-a-rework-like-memser

> >

> > Some good suggestions there

> >

> > For years, many of us have asked Anet for Thief complete design make over because the root cause of their problems lies in their core design.

> >

> >

> > " *For every effect there is a root cause. Find and address the root cause rather than try to fix the effect, as there is no end to the latter* "

> >

> > " *The best way to solve a problem is to eliminate, or resolve, its root cause* "

> >

> > 'When you don’t eliminate the root cause of a problem, the problem will keep recurring.' The community has been dealing with same the problems with thief for 6 years;. By now, the continual approach of nerfing them are not providing any long term solution to thief so why keep nerfing them instead of reworking them?

> >

> > Anet. Enough Please!

>

> It still amazes me that after 6 years you haven't learned to deal with even the most basic things concerning thief. Also, constantly putting your own comments in quotation marks to make it look like your ideas have historical precedent or something just makes you look silly.

>

> On topic, I'd rather just see a rework to SA to stop rewarding people for camping stealth and a removal/change of the stealth on dodge. That would fix things for the problematic specs while leaving most of the other specs well enough alone.

>

> That said, I don't think this is warranted when deadeye is still considered one of the weaker elite specs and would be out of place without heavily nerfing the other BS stuff in the game right now.

 

I'm quoting others: that is why i use quotation

'when deadeye is still considered one of the weaker elite specs and would be out of place without heavily nerfing the other BS stuff in the game right now'??'

 

**'Deadeye is so broken'**

[Jack Redline.5379]

guys stop bothering with this thread we all know it is not going to happen

Anet doesnt listen to hundreds of ppl they wont listen to one whiner

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Oldgrimm.8521" said:

> i propose to remove stealth and its stealth attacks.

>

 

Stealth is not the problem, anti-stealth is.

 

Stealth attack should be a positional attack. For example, Backstab will become available if you are standing behind your target.

 

> "Experts at stealing and surprise, thieves move through positional shadow steps, disorients enemies, or steal items from their opponents and use them as weapons. Thieves practice an agile, acrobatic fighting style, which makes them very hard to hit."

>

 

If Thief is expert ins stealing, then Steal should be a staple skill regardless of the Elite Spec. Meaning, Deadeye Mark should not replace Steal.

 

> where in Ragnarok it will remove opponents weapon, accessories, and armors currently equipped, But for Guild Wars 2's version, a full divest will be a unique effect that reduces an opponents weapon power, armor rating by 30% (or any percentage that you might agree on) like making them naked during a fight

>

 

Steal equipment was the initial idea but that would be too strong.

 

What you have described is "reduces an opponents weapon power" - that is the condition Weakness, "armor rating by 30%" - that is Vulnerability - which the Current Thief can easily apply.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I wouldn’t mind a rework but it’s unlikely as I’m sure don’t neex to explain why. A rework of steal mechanic would be nice to make it more impactful within the profession. Maybe arenet could start compensating thief for giving a lot of its tools of leverage to other professions that didn’t require them so thief stays relevant and delete perma stealth and rework it into somthing that requires set up and tactic like ramp it’s reveal damage but considerably lower accessibility and give 2 sec exhaustion if attack misses so there’s high risk/reward

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I would hate for the perma stealth to be a reason to keep other aspects of thief mediocre in the future due to its trolling potential

[Klypto.1703]

No need to remove it when its been nuked into unusable the way it is right now.

[Casiano.2705]

sigh on the current patch thief is gutted again......

 

i still firmly believe that "once they remove stealth", that is the time that they can move forward in buffing the class

 

stealth is our limiting factor in progress.

 

in some games that i play that has a THIEF archetype they don't even use invisibility that much (and thief is a separate entity from assassins and rouges)

 

they use the art of STEALING, and stolen weapons to their advantage, and plagiarism to some extent

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> Remove, no. Revamp a little with more regard to having to commit (or not, but having to commit to not committing, as weird as that sounds - yes).

>

> I'm fine with thieves having the opening shot/stab/whatever and starting out in stealth, even utilizing stealth throughout the fight, but they should not be in a constant state of being able to reset with near zero ability of their opponent to influence that.

>

> Anet needs to take a good, long look at

> 1) How thief initiates fights

> 2) How long they can spend in the fight, can they pull off a kill, and if so what do they use to survive and what do they use to pull off the kill

> 3) Their chances of being able to withdraw/reset depending on how long the fight has been going on, and how their chances for survival in the fight itself vary based on their utilizing of resources that would otherwise be used to retreat.

>

> And last - but more important - 4) How much interaction does the opponent have with the thief's defenses?

>

> No.4 is, I feel, what makes stealth so un-fun to play against. The thief's opponent doesn't really get to have any solid interaction/back and forth with the stealth itself, beyond swinging wildly wherever they assume the thief was, and that's...tbh, utter garbage gameplay.

 

What defenses? It amounts to stealthing, running, blinds, interrupts, and dodges. With stealth, running, and dodge being the main ones.

 

I wouldn't mind stealth being a little more difficult for thief to access, if they got something in return.

 

But as it stands, we are supposed to be dirty bastards and opportunist. I dont want to fight a warrior fairly. I want him to get mad at the idea that he cant hit me.

[Curennos.9307]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > Remove, no. Revamp a little with more regard to having to commit (or not, but having to commit to not committing, as weird as that sounds - yes).

> >

> > I'm fine with thieves having the opening shot/stab/whatever and starting out in stealth, even utilizing stealth throughout the fight, but they should not be in a constant state of being able to reset with near zero ability of their opponent to influence that.

> >

> > Anet needs to take a good, long look at

> > 1) How thief initiates fights

> > 2) How long they can spend in the fight, can they pull off a kill, and if so what do they use to survive and what do they use to pull off the kill

> > 3) Their chances of being able to withdraw/reset depending on how long the fight has been going on, and how their chances for survival in the fight itself vary based on their utilizing of resources that would otherwise be used to retreat.

> >

> > And last - but more important - 4) How much interaction does the opponent have with the thief's defenses?

> >

> > No.4 is, I feel, what makes stealth so un-fun to play against. The thief's opponent doesn't really get to have any solid interaction/back and forth with the stealth itself, beyond swinging wildly wherever they assume the thief was, and that's...tbh, utter garbage gameplay.

>

> What defenses? It amounts to stealthing, running, blinds, interrupts, and dodges. With stealth, running, and dodge being the main ones.

>

> I wouldn't mind stealth being a little more difficult for thief to access, if they got something in return.

>

> But as it stands, we are supposed to be dirty bastards and opportunist. I dont want to fight a warrior fairly. I want him to get mad at the idea that he cant hit me.

 

I'm not sure what you're getting at. You answered your own question - stealth, running, blinds, and interrupts (dodges too, but I don't count those as everyone has the base number of dodges, and those already have class-wide play and counterplay in the form of vigor, immobs or w/e)

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > Remove, no. Revamp a little with more regard to having to commit (or not, but having to commit to not committing, as weird as that sounds - yes).

> > >

> > > I'm fine with thieves having the opening shot/stab/whatever and starting out in stealth, even utilizing stealth throughout the fight, but they should not be in a constant state of being able to reset with near zero ability of their opponent to influence that.

> > >

> > > Anet needs to take a good, long look at

> > > 1) How thief initiates fights

> > > 2) How long they can spend in the fight, can they pull off a kill, and if so what do they use to survive and what do they use to pull off the kill

> > > 3) Their chances of being able to withdraw/reset depending on how long the fight has been going on, and how their chances for survival in the fight itself vary based on their utilizing of resources that would otherwise be used to retreat.

> > >

> > > And last - but more important - 4) How much interaction does the opponent have with the thief's defenses?

> > >

> > > No.4 is, I feel, what makes stealth so un-fun to play against. The thief's opponent doesn't really get to have any solid interaction/back and forth with the stealth itself, beyond swinging wildly wherever they assume the thief was, and that's...tbh, utter garbage gameplay.

> >

> > What defenses? It amounts to stealthing, running, blinds, interrupts, and dodges. With stealth, running, and dodge being the main ones.

> >

> > I wouldn't mind stealth being a little more difficult for thief to access, if they got something in return.

> >

> > But as it stands, we are supposed to be dirty bastards and opportunist. I dont want to fight a warrior fairly. I want him to get mad at the idea that he cant hit me.

>

> I'm not sure what you're getting at. You answered your own question - stealth, running, blinds, and interrupts (dodges too, but I don't count those as everyone has the base number of dodges, and those already have class-wide play and counterplay in the form of vigor, immobs or w/e)

 

Im being flippant. All but stealth are something that other classes are able yo do. So theres nothing really unique other than stealth.

 

Thats what I am pointing out. The interactions against their defense is the same as everyone else. They can't spontaneously become immune to damage, generate ageis, super speed, or what ever. They have no unique buffs, and regeneration is nearly wasted on them as there are no healing power builds with good interactions foe thief.