Please Stop Killing Characters (spoliers)

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > The evidence doesn't support the assumption made by the OP: major deaths aren't casual. They are major turning points in the story. Eir's death transforms Braham and causes a rift that almost buries Dragon's Watch before it gets started. Blish being swallowed by a dragon (and his presumed death) causes Taimi to unburden herself to the command, and affects the rest of the crew.

> >

> > There are tons of "main characters," the vast majority of whom are alive and well.

> >

> > * **LS1:** proto Dragon's Watch: all alive. Other allies: alive. Main villains: 1 dead, one escaped from prison, one joins us (later).

> > * **LS2:** Traveling companions: all alive. Destiny's Edge: all survive. Belinda dies, but she's a redshirt. Zephyrites: oops, but all redshirts.

> > * **HoT:** The Pact: Trahearne becomes compost; the rest survive. Destiny's Edge: Zojja loses her voice; Eir dies; the rest survive. Proto Dragon's Watch: all survive.

> > * **LS3:** Dragon's Watch: all alive. All of the other primary protagonists remain alive. The primary villains are dead.

> > * **PoF:** Dragon's Watch: all alive. Other characters: all alive (well except the Queens, but they started off dead).

> > * **LS4:** Dragon's Watch: all alive. Only one of the other protagonists is _believed to have died_. One primary villain died; the other lives.

> >

> > There's nothing wrong with wanting to see a wedding. It doesn't have to be justified by imagining things that haven't happened.

>

> Zoja is implied to be dead. The ghost of Snaff mentions talking to her while speaking to Taimi. (This could only happen if Zoja were also in The Mists. )

> Taimi claims to be in the process of dying.

>

> That's 3 of Destiny's Edge down + Trahearne. ( One additional incapacitated and in an administrative job. ) and one of Dragon's Watch.

>

> I see a desire to write-in the player as Guild Leader of Dragon's Watch. However, there's no need to exterminate Destiny's Edge in the process. **Death is dramatic but, like any spice, it should not be over used.**

>

> I, personally, am beginning to feel jaded when Blish sacrifices himself and my reaction is …blah. There are other potentially better ways to tell the story.

 

Wining wars ifsmade of sacrifices... :}

Even the stoic silvary female that acompanied the players form the durmand priory died... lol

[Talindra.4958]

> @"CeNedro.7560" said:

> I like to get rid of annoying characters by slaughtering them. Though the forced drama should be replaced with the pure joy of getting them slaughtered. I'm looking forward for Caithe, Braham and Taimi to get killed.

> On the other hand I would have liked Joko to stay with us for a bit longer. I enjoyed him. Though they could have gotten even crazier with his self-staging. I'm looking forward for an epic musical with Joko as main actor.

 

Omg ....................??????

[TheOrlyFactor.8341]

> @"CeNedro.7560" said:

> Edgy stuff

 


 

[Tsakhi.8124]

> @"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said:

> > @"CeNedro.7560" said:

> > Edgy stuff

>

> 

>

 

I can't breathe, I'm in between laughing and dying. You just made my day, thank you!

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > The evidence doesn't support the assumption made by the OP: major deaths aren't casual. They are major turning points in the story. Eir's death transforms Braham and causes a rift that almost buries Dragon's Watch before it gets started. Blish being swallowed by a dragon (and his presumed death) causes Taimi to unburden herself to the command, and affects the rest of the crew.

> > >

> > > There are tons of "main characters," the vast majority of whom are alive and well.

> > >

> > > * **LS1:** proto Dragon's Watch: all alive. Other allies: alive. Main villains: 1 dead, one escaped from prison, one joins us (later).

> > > * **LS2:** Traveling companions: all alive. Destiny's Edge: all survive. Belinda dies, but she's a redshirt. Zephyrites: oops, but all redshirts.

> > > * **HoT:** The Pact: Trahearne becomes compost; the rest survive. Destiny's Edge: Zojja loses her voice; Eir dies; the rest survive. Proto Dragon's Watch: all survive.

> > > * **LS3:** Dragon's Watch: all alive. All of the other primary protagonists remain alive. The primary villains are dead.

> > > * **PoF:** Dragon's Watch: all alive. Other characters: all alive (well except the Queens, but they started off dead).

> > > * **LS4:** Dragon's Watch: all alive. Only one of the other protagonists is _believed to have died_. One primary villain died; the other lives.

> > >

> > > There's nothing wrong with wanting to see a wedding. It doesn't have to be justified by imagining things that haven't happened.

> >

> > Zoja is implied to be dead. The ghost of Snaff mentions talking to her while speaking to Taimi. (This could only happen if Zoja were also in The Mists. )

> > Taimi claims to be in the process of dying.

> >

> > That's 3 of Destiny's Edge down + Trahearne. ( One additional incapacitated and in an administrative job. ) and one of Dragon's Watch.

> >

> > I see a desire to write-in the player as Guild Leader of Dragon's Watch. However, there's no need to exterminate Destiny's Edge in the process. **Death is dramatic but, like any spice, it should not be over used.**

> >

> > I, personally, am beginning to feel jaded when Blish sacrifices himself and my reaction is …blah. There are other potentially better ways to tell the story.

>

> Wining wars ifsmade of sacrifices... :}

> Even the stoic silvary female that acompanied the players form the durmand priory died... lol

 

To paraphrase Patton: "No dumb kitten ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb kitten die for his country."

 

My point is that no, war is not "made up of sacrifices."

 

Yes, I understand about war, having been there. Still I believe that ANET is using the death of major characters too frequently and too casually. **Yes, death is dramatic. Even the greatest of emotional shocks becomes old - hat if repeated too often.**

 

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> Still I believe that ANET is using the death of major characters to frequently

How often would be just right in your view?

 

Your definition of 'frequently' is four times in six years, unless you want to count Belinda as 'major' (she wasn't) or are still counting Zojja as 'dead' (she's not) or Taimi as dead (she's not either). That seems incredibly sparse considering that the story takes place during epic, existential wars, in which the fate of the world (or even the universe) is at stake.

 

 

> and too casually.

What would be "not casual" for you? Pick any of the actual major deaths: Eir, Blish, Trehearne, or any of the mentors and explain what makes those anything less than profound in impact to the story, to the characters?

 

****

There are a couple of deaths that are less dramatic than some people liked, including:

* Belinda: her death was weak, but mostly because she was weak as a character; the actual death was dramatic and profoundly affecting Marjory

* Scarlet: lots of people wanted her dead, but I thought the actual death scene was overly drawn out.

* Zhaitan: epic build up, final fight didn't meet people's expectations. Obviously, though, it was a profound event and decidedly non-casual experience.

* Joko: I enjoyed how I was taken by surprise; other people didn't. But it wasn't 'casual', just sudden.

[Dante.1763]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > The evidence doesn't support the assumption made by the OP: major deaths aren't casual. They are major turning points in the story. Eir's death transforms Braham and causes a rift that almost buries Dragon's Watch before it gets started. Blish being swallowed by a dragon (and his presumed death) causes Taimi to unburden herself to the command, and affects the rest of the crew.

> > > >

> > > > There are tons of "main characters," the vast majority of whom are alive and well.

> > > >

> > > > * **LS1:** proto Dragon's Watch: all alive. Other allies: alive. Main villains: 1 dead, one escaped from prison, one joins us (later).

> > > > * **LS2:** Traveling companions: all alive. Destiny's Edge: all survive. Belinda dies, but she's a redshirt. Zephyrites: oops, but all redshirts.

> > > > * **HoT:** The Pact: Trahearne becomes compost; the rest survive. Destiny's Edge: Zojja loses her voice; Eir dies; the rest survive. Proto Dragon's Watch: all survive.

> > > > * **LS3:** Dragon's Watch: all alive. All of the other primary protagonists remain alive. The primary villains are dead.

> > > > * **PoF:** Dragon's Watch: all alive. Other characters: all alive (well except the Queens, but they started off dead).

> > > > * **LS4:** Dragon's Watch: all alive. Only one of the other protagonists is _believed to have died_. One primary villain died; the other lives.

> > > >

> > > > There's nothing wrong with wanting to see a wedding. It doesn't have to be justified by imagining things that haven't happened.

> > >

> > > Zoja is implied to be dead. The ghost of Snaff mentions talking to her while speaking to Taimi. (This could only happen if Zoja were also in The Mists. )

> > > Taimi claims to be in the process of dying.

> > >

> > > That's 3 of Destiny's Edge down + Trahearne. ( One additional incapacitated and in an administrative job. ) and one of Dragon's Watch.

> > >

> > > I see a desire to write-in the player as Guild Leader of Dragon's Watch. However, there's no need to exterminate Destiny's Edge in the process. **Death is dramatic but, like any spice, it should not be over used.**

> > >

> > > I, personally, am beginning to feel jaded when Blish sacrifices himself and my reaction is …blah. There are other potentially better ways to tell the story.

> >

> > Wining wars ifsmade of sacrifices... :}

> > Even the stoic silvary female that acompanied the players form the durmand priory died... lol

>

> To paraphrase Patton: "No dumb kitten ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb kitten die for his country."

>

> My point is that no, war is not "made up of sacrifices."

>

> Yes, I understand about war, having been there. Still I believe that ANET is using the death of major characters too frequently and too casually. **Yes, death is dramatic. Even the greatest of emotional shocks becomes old - hat if repeated too often.**

>

 

I still to this day feel strongly about Master Togos death in GW1 Factions.

 

Gw2s Mentor death(in my case the Sieren) was the most wrenching for me personally, and to a much lesser degree a few of the other non "main" NPCs that got killed in the Arah missions depending on your choices(before those choices went away). Treaherenes felt way to much like catering to the people who complained about him for me to feel anything other than anger(not much of it) at those players. Eirs was shocking but not really impactful due to having never played a Norn. Demmi Bettlestones death hit a little closer to home but was rather predictable. Both Taimi(potential death unless they come up with some way to cure her/turn her into a golem) and Blish didnt phase me at all, and honestly i dont think anybodys death outside of Rytlocks would bother me one bit, i kinda expect *everyone* to die by the end of this game.

[Westenev.5289]

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> I still to this day feel strongly about Master Togos death in GW1 Factions.

 

I played Factions a few months ago. Is it bad that I didn't notice Togo had died until after everyone started talking about how he would be missed? :s

 

I guess everyone has different emotional attachments to different characters. I mean, the only GW1 character I really came to care for was Gwen... for obvious reasons. :'(

 

If you want a character death done RIGHT, look at Demolitionist Tonn from the Personal story. As a stinger, his spouse turns up in HoT, and even after two years she STILL hates the commander. I still have a guilt complex whenever I head her way.

[Edelweiss.4261]

I don't really care how frequent characters die. However, most deaths in GW2 feel pointless. Eir's death supposedly had this massive impact on Braham, but Braham could have grown from point A to point B without her death. It didn't make me feel pity for Braham either. My first character had more of a mother-daughter relationship with Eir than Braham ever did, yet he stole the thematic representation of my guardian's transformation into a dragonhunter, Eir's longbow. Eir died because they wanted someone important to die and growing Braham(I don't even think he changed all that much) seems like a bonus afterthought. Blish's quick introduction only to die two episodes later reminded me of Tegwen from the original personal story. They feel like they were introduced purely so they could die. How wasteful. I'm of the opinion that death should serve the theme of the story lest it seem pointless(unless that is the theme of the story). Using death to serve as a catalyst for events that could come about without death is purely uninspired and, perhaps, lazy. Don't get me wrong. People die, but killing a character for that reason alone is insufficient.

 

I think the only living character I care about at this point is Caithe and, to a significantly lessor extent, Marjory. They have explored Caithe already, so I expect they'll throw her away like Eir soon.

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"Westenev.5289" said:

> > @"Dante.1763" said:

> > I still to this day feel strongly about Master Togos death in GW1 Factions.

>

> I played Factions a few months ago. Is it bad that I didn't notice Togo had died until after everyone started talking about how he would be missed? :s

>

> I guess everyone has different emotional attachments to different characters. I mean, the only GW1 character I really came to care for was Gwen... for obvious reasons. :'(

>

> If you want a character death done RIGHT, look at Demolitionist Tonn from the Personal story. As a stinger, his spouse turns up in HoT, and even after two years she STILL hates the commander. I still have a guilt complex whenever I head her way.

 

On the subject of Master Togo... that was kind of the big reveal... He was the Emperor's brother. So, killing him allowed Shiro to return to the mortal realm, ( to his doom. )

 

I agree, Tonn's death hit me like a hammer. **That was before so many other deaths.** It was well played.

 

I felt the death of each of my Order mentors keenly.... ( In fact, I delayed playing that episode just to "keep them alive." ) but again, that was before so many others went down.

[Westenev.5289]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> I felt the death of each of my Order mentors keenly.... ( In fact, I delayed playing that episode just to "keep them alive." ) but again, that was before so many others went down.

 

I don't know, the only thing I felt when my mentor died (and on repeat runs) was confusion. I steamrolled through the instance each time, and the mechanics gave the impression that retreating was the wrong move and that we could have easily bottlenecked the hoard at the gates now that the idiot lionguard commander had stopped feeding the hoard.

 

Now, if we got overwhelmed at the gate and our mentor became stranded after lightning the lighthouse - I might have understood a tactical retreat (and might have felt a little sad at them going MIA). But the whole situation as it played out turned their "sacrifice" into "senseless suicide" to me, especially since the undead failed to destroy the gates our mentors were "protecting" (which have to be destroyed when you return anyway).

[XenoSpyro.1780]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> Yes, the whole "hero's journey" to The Mists and back was truly legendary. Joseph Campbell would have been proud. That was great story telling.

 

You're dead for all of an hour max. That entire scene was pointless, or at least only serves for that cringeworthy "Death was overrated." line.

If the player character was instead knocked unconscious, nothing would be different, but at the very least could lead to an actual good joke later when you're knocked out again before Amala.

 

[casualkenny.9817]

deaths in gw2 are formulaic. if you read novels where significant chars die, the difference is clear.

 

im guessing that the first time they did it, they did it naturally. then they tot it was a good plot device for conveying the horrors and losses of war, and voila.

 

im not saying deaths are bad. im saying deaths done badly are terrible.

 

i really liked tonn, i think his char design and voice actor was great. when he said he would detonate the charges, i said goodbye. when gretchen said she would defend the entrance even if it cost her life, i said goodbye. when that pilot crashlanded, and we went to save her, and on finding her pistol some npc said that was a sign she was still alive, i lol'ed. when vlast died soon after i met him (i only just found out yesterday that gw1 players knew who he was), i was thinking "typical"

 

on the other hand, when forgal died, i tot it did fit the flow. the overall sense of the story does not have a pressing sense of doom and failure - hence the usually-unnecessary (i mean contrived) deaths of ppl u just met are very meh. for a death to mean anything emotionally, you cant leave it as a cardboard cutout. you have to invest in its development first.

[XYLO.7031]

I don't mind them telling the story as is. But at least write them out in a good way. Braham got to go.

[MokahTGS.7850]

Yeah...Braham has been a massive whining baby the whole time...man up norn...your mother was a freaking warrior hero...