Manipulating comp

[Kunzaito.8169]

I realize there are other even more problematic ways that players manipulate matchmaking to increase/ensure their odds of victory, but I'm wondering what people think about this "strategy" I've seen. There's one particular pair of players that I'm often matched against (and occasionally with) in ranked. They *always* queue as an ele and a thief (two of the weaker/more specialized pvp classes for mid-tier ranked) and swap to warrior and guard (two of the strongest classes at that level). They are obviously doing that to try to manipulate the comp of their team to be stronger teamfights, especially if they manage to get 2 eles or 2 thieves on the other team. They win most of the games I've played with them, I'd say maybe 80%.

 

I guess there's no real way for ANet to judge intention, so to stop this they would have to prevent class swapping altogether. I'd be fine with that, but I'm sure a lot of others wouldn't (and it would prevent solo players from trying to swap out of a genuinely bad comp). What if duo queue players cannot swap but solos can? Would work for me too, but again I'm sure others would complain.

 

I think that being able to deliberately manipulate 40% of a team comp to try to take advantage of the matchmaker adds an additional unhealthy advantage to duo queues. What do others think?

[DanAlcedo.3281]

This is so easy and effective, i always wonder why this doesn’t get abused into orbit.

 

 

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

It is kind of lame, but that's how it works. The answer is not to prevent class swapping. That would cause far more problems than it would help.

[Yannir.4132]

They probably win matches because they are decent players, not because they swap professions before the game starts.

And the fact that you see them repeatedly in games means that they don't win 80% of their matches because if they did, they'd have climbed higher than you. Unless you also have an 80+% win rate.

And bottom line is it's not an exploit or anything. You could be doing the exact same thing.

It's a bit cheesy and lame but that's really all it is.

[bravan.3876]

> @"Yannir.4132" said:

> They probably win matches because they are decent players, not because they swap professions before the game starts.

> And the fact that you see them repeatedly in games means that they don't win 80% of their matches because if they did, they'd have climbed higher than you. Unless you also have an 80+% win rate.

> And bottom line is it's not an exploit or anything. You could be doing the exact same thing.

> It's a bit cheesy and lame but that's really all it is.

 

Somehow sweet that you still think mm works as intended xD You get matched with the few ppl in q no matter what rating, that is the reality.

[zoopop.5630]

i do it 90% percent of the time, I go into que as a necro and I ALWAYS get put with 1 more necro on the team.

 

I then swap to Engi depending on enemy comp. I have NO idea why its always like that but when ever I que up as a class I dont want i'll get another pair to match whatever i'm playing hence why i'll swap off.

 

 

[Spartacus.3192]

Preventing class swapping is the only way BUT the PvP community voted NO to preventing class swapping so look to your fellow PvPers to blame , nothing ANET can do about it.

 

So if its not against the rules, you can expect it to be abused. As someone said above im surprised its not more common.

[Erzian.5218]

> @"Spartacus.3192" said:

> As someone said above im surprised its not more common.

As you can already swap during map selection, it is literally impossible for us (the players) to know if and to what extend this is being abused.

 

[Kunzaito.8169]

> @"Erzian.5218" said:

> > @"Spartacus.3192" said:

> > As someone said above im surprised its not more common.

> As you can already swap during map selection, it is literally impossible for us (the players) to know if and to what extend this is being abused.

>

 

It's easier to tell than you think, at least anecdotally. I usually spend the leadup to the match with the "B' screen open analyzing the comps, seeing if I recognize players to know their tendencies, and watching for any DCs or swaps. I can say that it's relatively rare that I see two players swap classes at all, let alone a duo, and do so with such obvious intention (come in on a class you want to minimize, switch to a class you want to maximize), which is why I noticed these guys doing it. It is surprising that it doesn't happen more often because it does seem to be extremely effective at shifting the odds for games at my level.

[Erzian.5218]

You don’t see players swapping when they change character before you have loaded the map aka if they swap during the map selection already. The only astonishing thing is that your beloved duo doesn’t swap beforehand if they reroll regardless of the opposing team comp anyway.

[Chilli.2976]

If you have to match manipulate in Guild Wars 2 PvP, please rethink your life choices.

[Apokriphos.7042]

I see match swap in almost every fight in platinum 2 soloq.

[TorQ.7041]

What's wrong with swapping? You see your comp sucks vs something. Maybe u have 2 thieves on your team. If u r 1 of the thieves, switching to a war is a great idea.

 

Or u think that it's fair that if u rng into a team a bad comp u shld just sit there and lose?

[Kunzaito.8169]

> @"TorQ.7041" said:

> What's wrong with swapping? You see your comp sucks vs something. Maybe u have 2 thieves on your team. If u r 1 of the thieves, switching to a war is a great idea.

>

> Or u think that it's fair that if u rng into a team a bad comp u shld just sit there and lose?

 

I mean... I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to this... but it's like you didn't even read (or comprehend) the actual issue I brought up. Ability to switch itself isn't the issue, and although I personally wouldn't be that bummed if they took it away, I acknowledged above there are circumstances it definitely is useful for.

 

In this case it's not about reading the comp and swapping into something if you see a clear disadvantage. It's about manipulating the opponent's comp by queuing certain classes (to virtually ensure the other team will have at least 1) and then swapping to stronger/more flexible/counter classes deliberately every time, compounded by the fact that a duo can coordinate to manipulate 40% of the teams' comps. In many levels of pvp this is a significant advantage.

[TorQ.7041]

> @"Kunzaito.8169" said:

> > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > What's wrong with swapping? You see your comp sucks vs something. Maybe u have 2 thieves on your team. If u r 1 of the thieves, switching to a war is a great idea.

> >

> > Or u think that it's fair that if u rng into a team a bad comp u shld just sit there and lose?

>

> I mean... I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to this... but it's like you didn't even read (or comprehend) the actual issue I brought up. Ability to switch itself isn't the issue, and although I personally wouldn't be that bummed if they took it away, I acknowledged above there are circumstances it definitely is useful for.

>

> In this case it's not about reading the comp and swapping into something if you see a clear disadvantage. It's about manipulating the opponent's comp by queuing certain classes (to virtually ensure the other team will have at least 1) and then swapping to stronger/more flexible/counter classes deliberately every time, compounded by the fact that a duo can coordinate to manipulate 40% of the teams' comps. In many levels of pvp this is a significant advantage.

 

I don't see that as manipulation. If u have a fb scourge and reaper. And 2 thieves. And you are one of the thieves you likely don't care what the other comp is. Since u likely will not bring ur fb or scourge. In that scenario u can do what ever u think is suited for your team comp. Maybe a mesmer or boonbeast

 

You are also assuming ele and thief is useless. Ele and thief can be in the same comp. They can be strong but just not in the same way as a war and guard.Maybe they always wanted to go in as an ele and thief but decided guard n war on the games u were in.

 

If u r not looking at your team comp and thinking that thief and ele is a weak class so u change. That's really your own problem...

[Kunzaito.8169]

> @"TorQ.7041" said:

> I don't see that as manipulation. If u have a fb scourge and reaper. And 2 thieves. And you are one of the thieves you likely don't care what the other comp is. Since u likely will not bring ur fb or scourge. In that scenario u can do what ever u think is suited for your team comp. Maybe a mesmer or boonbeast

 

What the hell are you talking about? Do I have to keep spelling this out for you? They're not reading the comp. That has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

 

> You are also assuming ele and thief is useless. Ele and thief can be in the same comp. They can be strong but just not in the same way as a war and guard.Maybe they always wanted to go in as an ele and thief but decided guard n war on the games u were in.

 

I'm not assuming anything like that. I said "more specialized." They are specs that have a higher skill floor, can't really carry on their own, don't do well generally with more than one on a team, etc. Especially in the middle and lower tiers of pvp, there are certain classes that bring a lot more utility knowing that people are not going to play their classes or the map optimally at those levels.

 

> If u r not looking at your team comp and thinking that thief and ele is a weak class so u change. That's really your own problem...

 

I wasn't looking for a solution to a problem. Obviously if I were an ele or a thief and I thought that their swap disadvantaged us I could swap too; if I'm not I can't make someone else. This thread is about whether others have noticed how strong this strategy is and whether it should stay as is or be addressed in some way. I'm guessing you think it's fine as-is but you haven't been addressing the actual point of the thread at all so I dunno.

 

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > @"Kunzaito.8169" said:

> > > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > > What's wrong with swapping? You see your comp sucks vs something. Maybe u have 2 thieves on your team. If u r 1 of the thieves, switching to a war is a great idea.

> > >

> > > Or u think that it's fair that if u rng into a team a bad comp u shld just sit there and lose?

> >

> > I mean... I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to this... but it's like you didn't even read (or comprehend) the actual issue I brought up. Ability to switch itself isn't the issue, and although I personally wouldn't be that bummed if they took it away, I acknowledged above there are circumstances it definitely is useful for.

> >

> > In this case it's not about reading the comp and swapping into something if you see a clear disadvantage. It's about manipulating the opponent's comp by queuing certain classes (to virtually ensure the other team will have at least 1) and then swapping to stronger/more flexible/counter classes deliberately every time, compounded by the fact that a duo can coordinate to manipulate 40% of the teams' comps. In many levels of pvp this is a significant advantage.

>

> I don't see that as manipulation. If u have a fb scourge and reaper. And 2 thieves. And you are one of the thieves you likely don't care what the other comp is. Since u likely will not bring ur fb or scourge. In that scenario u can do what ever u think is suited for your team comp. Maybe a mesmer or boonbeast

>

> You are also assuming ele and thief is useless. Ele and thief can be in the same comp. They can be strong but just not in the same way as a war and guard.Maybe they always wanted to go in as an ele and thief but decided guard n war on the games u were in.

>

> If u r not looking at your team comp and thinking that thief and ele is a weak class so u change. That's really your own problem...

 

Is anyone even reading what the OP is saying? He is specifically talking about the ability to rig team comps by purposely logging into the match as weaker classes, and then swapping to stronger classes after the match maker puts those same classes on the other team in attempts to balance the match. Doing this also weeds out the classes you DO NOT want on your team. It also allows you to amplify the amount of "good" classes on your team. A few case scenarios:

 

* Duo logs into the match as duo thieves, to block any other thief joins in their team.

* This stirs the match maker to find other thieves to put against them on the other team.

* When the duo sees that there are two thieves on the other team and no thieves on their team, they log out and back in as a Holosmith and a Boonbeast.

* This is broken because when they log in as the two thieves that they already know they are not going to play, the match maker has already fished into their team a Holosmith and another Boonbeast, expecting that the duo would play the duo thieves. So now you have a match that is RED: Holo/Holo/Beast/Beast/whatever vs. Thief/Thief/Holo/Beast/whatever. When it was intended to be: Thief/Thief/Holo/Beast/whatever vs. Thief/Thief/Holo/Beast/whatever.

 

For those who are not quite understanding this, the idea is that you can amplify your chances of having OP team comps, simply by logging into the match first with things you do not want in your match, and then log back in as things that are OP. It does 2x things mainly: Decreases the chances that the game will pair your duo with the same classes in your team that your duo is using initially. Then because you aren't on that Holo or Soulbeast initially, it opens a larger margin of chance for the game to put more Holos or Soulbeasts in your team, and then the duo can swap to their real classes before the match starts.

 

I get it, I agree, swapping need to remain, because removing it would cause more harm than it would help. But this issue in the above ^ is pretty abusive and it would be great to have some mechanism that defended against it.

 

[Sampson.2403]

Sounds like a viable strategy to me. If someone wants to put in the effort to slighty increase their karma with the rng gods then whatever. It's not anymore game breaking than a guardian and a scourge duo quing.

[Xcution.4768]

Low elo I don't care but in high elo when you Q as a ranger you get a soulbeast in their team .....so i Q as thief then swap to ranger. I have queued as bunker builds and then swapped to rev + thief with my duo partner. Completely depends on what the enemy comp is tbh.