Why is passive Endure Pain still here?

[Axl.8924]

Personally my opinion:

 

Make it so when invuln you cannot hurt anyone and they cannot either.

 

2:Do not kill this ability for warrior, because damage is so high I think warriors would be wrecked if they couldn't escape high dmg. Imagine warriors having to tank like reapers: Yeah right no. I don't know how many defensives warriors have, but not sure if they have anymore invulns, and not being able to avoid damage like mirage and ending up like reaper is a death sentence in itself which I do not wish upon anyone.

 

 

3:At least ele have mist form to get away, and that one when your down.

 

[ButterPeanut.9746]

Two pages about a trait that doesn't matter because defense warrior has been shoved out of the meta with nerfs over the past year. Meta spell breaker hasn't run defense for a while now

[JTGuevara.9018]

Um, _first of all_ , Endure Pain isn't even a full invuln. Last time I checked, conditions and cc still go through! Second of all, as a warrior main, if people are going to take a shot at my class, at least don't be lazy and make an effort to _try_ to be informed about it. I'm _tired_ of seeing people in these forums talk about Endure Pain as an "invuln". It is not an invuln! It nullfies physical damage, but conditions and cc can still go through! Third of all, if we're going to talk about nerfing passives, then also nerf ranger's Stoneform, which is pretty much the same thing.

 

I mean, it just sticks in peoples' craws that warrior is among the toughest classes to physically take down. If you all want to nerf warrior sustain, then nerf the POWERCREEP of the other classes. Let's try to be fair, here.

[Don Vega Van Kain.9842]

> @"JTGuevara.9018" said:

> Third of all, if we're going to talk about nerfing passives, then also nerf ranger's Stoneform, which is pretty much the same thing.

 

All the passives have to go, it's not fair at the moment. Not at all.

[Onlysaneman.9612]

I have never understood the gripe people have against passive (by which they usually mean defensive skills that are automatically activated by some trigger) traits. Unless you're running some gimmicky surprise burst from stealth build it shouldn't really matter whether they have to react and push a button. Against anyone who isn't really bad at the game, they're not just going to forget to press it. "Oh no, how could I have predicted my opponent would be such a skilled adversary, capable of pressing the 9 key! Truly, I am outmatched." People don't run it (usually) because they need the game to hold their hand and save their skins, they run it because a second cast of one of warrior's better survival skills is a useful thing to have regardless of automation.

 

Sure, to those of you who don't like the idea of traits triggering certain skills automatically, go ahead. Let the Defy Pain trait convert Endure Pain into a 2-count ammo skill or something instead. That'll fix it. After all, now warriors have to push a button to get the same effect. And it would have the actually detrimental effect of forcing players into running it on their bar for the benefit (though I think anyone running the Defense line probably does that anyway).

 

Look, I'm not saying that Defy Pain is balanced. I think it is, but if you want to have a conversation about it being too powerful (which some here are having) then I don't want to get involved. If there's a reason it needs a nerf, then nerf it, but some of the posters here seem to think that "because it's passive" is a valid reason. It isn't. Making it less passive won't magically fix whatever problems you might have fighting warriors. Making it WORSE might, but if a warrior kills you now then that same warrior would kill you just as well with an equally strong active defense in its place.

 

Side note: scrolling up a bit I noticed somebody mentioning WvW zergs as a place where you might actually need the auto-cast, so maybe I'm a bit off on that. That said, I've limited personal experience to speak from there, and I don't think a few seconds of personal invulnerability in a zerg is what people are usually complaining about when they gripe about warrior defenses anyway.

[Lucentfir.7430]

Yeah go ahead remove the 100% Physical Damage reduction , and give it the Soulbeast 'Dolyak Stance' Treatment, with access to protection. It boggles my mind people are having such a problem with a 2s EP on a 90s CD.

[Kuya.6495]

> @"Lucentfir.7430" said:

> Yeah go ahead remove the 100% Physical Damage reduction , and give it the Soulbeast 'Dolyak Stance' Treatment, with access to protection. It boggles my mind people are having such a problem with a 2s EP on a 90s CD.

 

I dont think people have a problem with the trait right now. I think this is just sour grapes cause a lot of them had their own auto traits changed and they want warriors to get the same treatment even if the trait isn't relevant anymore.

[Zero.3871]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Derenaya.3479" said:

> > Ehm he did? At least I understood his point.

> >

> > ‚‚Why is (e.g.) Endure Pain (a passive trait) still in the game when they removed Elixier S (a passive trait).‘‘ => Why did they only remove certain passive traits and not all of them.

>

> Then should we be wondering why they replaced Elixir S (a passive trait) by Elixir E (an equally passive trait)? The point is that Elixir S, by the way it worked, was passively breaking the flow of the fight for the engineer while the traits that remain (_Endure pain, stoneform, instant reflexes, unholy sanctuary, versed in stone, earth embrace, virtous solace or even automated medical response_ and _Elixir E_) don't prevent you from fighting "actively".

>

> **The patch was only removing from the game traits that were "unfun" to play or play against. Traits that answered CC for CC or traits that passively locked you out of your ability to actively play fell into this category.**

>

> Comparing _endure pain_ and _elixir S_ is really comparing apple and orange. One lock you out of active gameplay, while the other don't. One could be seen as being passively punished by your own traits and thus being unfun to "play", while the other don't affect the way you play.

 

wonder why anet deleted last gasp than, since it doesnt Change the flow for necros or anything else you mentioned. it was just a nerf to Sustain of an already Sustain weak class, while other passive lifesavers remain. fact is, they wanted to reduce the number of passives in the game, but anet did this only on some specific classes. so its a massive nerf for all classes that got hit (engi, necro) while classes like ranger, warrior didnt get nerfed here. there is no reason to not delete stoneform and defy pain, when they delete last gasp. because this traits work in the same way and are also way stronger AND on classes that ALSO already had way better Sustain before the patch.

 

also funny that you put unholy Sanctuary on the same Level like defy pain, signet of Stone.... since this skill is worthelss in comparison to the other traits, so weak that no necro is running it xD.

[Solori.6025]

> @"Kuya.6495" said:

> > @"Lucentfir.7430" said:

> > Yeah go ahead remove the 100% Physical Damage reduction , and give it the Soulbeast 'Dolyak Stance' Treatment, with access to protection. It boggles my mind people are having such a problem with a 2s EP on a 90s CD.

>

> I dont think people have a problem with the trait right now. I think this is just sour grapes cause a lot of them had their own auto traits changed and they want warriors to get the same treatment even if the trait isn't relevant anymore.

 

This...

Though some people do have a point about anets balancing direction. They need to clarify the reasoning behind completely gutting passives for some classes and not others.

 

[Sampson.2403]

I'm in the FFA arena showing a buddy how to one shot as a GS mesmer. I tell him to go try it on a warrior who is AFK.

 

He does a perfect mirror blade bounce into a jaunt 3 rack shatter mind stabbing all of it - you know that he sandwhiched it all with double mantra.

 

AFK warrior procs defy pain. Friend is now in an insane asylum throwing imaginary mirror blades at a white padded wall.

 

Defy pain and other traits like it insult the lessons taught to us by the Final Destination movie series. Thou shalt not defy death or crazy shit happens.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Zero.3871" said:

> wonder why anet deleted last gasp than, since it doesnt Change the flow for necros or anything else you mentioned. it was just a nerf to Sustain of an already Sustain weak class, while other passive lifesavers remain. fact is, they wanted to reduce the number of passives in the game, but anet did this only on some specific classes. so its a massive nerf for all classes that got hit (engi, necro) while classes like ranger, warrior didnt get nerfed here. there is no reason to not delete stoneform and defy pain, when they delete last gasp. because this traits work in the same way and are also way stronger AND on classes that ALSO already had way better Sustain before the patch.

>

> also funny that you put unholy Sanctuary on the same Level like defy pain, signet of Stone.... since this skill is worthelss in comparison to the other traits, so weak that no necro is running it xD.

 

You don't understand the changes on the necromancer.

 

_Last gasp_ was a minor though, the other traits aren't. But all in all the change to _last gasp_ was necessary to balance the necromancer's traitline between each other. With how loaded with everything soul reaping was, some traitline like death magic would have been impossible to bring up to par with the rest of the lines without making it blatantly OP.

 

Furthermore, the shroud CD reduction which was on _vital persistance_ needed to go on a minor trait in order to make the trait less domineering. What did you expect ANet to do? Add shroud CD reduction on top of _last gasp_ effects?

 

The only thing on the necromancer's balance note that was unexpected was the the loss of the spectral skills trait.

 

NB.: _Unholy Sanctuary_ is on the same level than _defy pain_ or _signet of stone_. The reason it wasn't taken was that it is in Death magic and this traitline wasn't appaeling due to SR doing a way better job at giving suvivability on top of giving substantial damage and more useful utility. Now, after the changes you have a few reasons to ponder over taking DM or not which at the same time make _unholy sanctuary_ more appaeling. We aren't anymore in the pre patch game, there was a shift of power in the necromancer traitlines and it mean that we need to adapt to move forward.

[Zero.3871]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Zero.3871" said:

> > wonder why anet deleted last gasp than, since it doesnt Change the flow for necros or anything else you mentioned. it was just a nerf to Sustain of an already Sustain weak class, while other passive lifesavers remain. fact is, they wanted to reduce the number of passives in the game, but anet did this only on some specific classes. so its a massive nerf for all classes that got hit (engi, necro) while classes like ranger, warrior didnt get nerfed here. there is no reason to not delete stoneform and defy pain, when they delete last gasp. because this traits work in the same way and are also way stronger AND on classes that ALSO already had way better Sustain before the patch.

> >

> > also funny that you put unholy Sanctuary on the same Level like defy pain, signet of Stone.... since this skill is worthelss in comparison to the other traits, so weak that no necro is running it xD.

>

> You don't understand the changes on the necromancer.

>

> _Last gasp_ was a minor though, the other traits aren't. But all in all the change to _last gasp_ was necessary to balance the necromancer's traitline between each other. With how loaded with everything soul reaping was, some traitline like death magic would have been impossible to bring up to par with the rest of the lines without making it blatantly OP.

>

> Furthermore, the shroud CD reduction which was on _vital persistance_ needed to go on a minor trait in order to make the trait less domineering. What did you expect ANet to do? Add shroud CD reduction on top of _last gasp_ effects?

>

> The only thing on the necromancer's balance note that was unexpected was the the loss of the spectral skills trait.

>

> NB.: _Unholy Sanctuary_ is on the same level than _defy pain_ or _signet of stone_. The reason it wasn't taken was that it is in Death magic and this traitline wasn't appaeling due to SR doing a way better job at giving suvivability on top of giving substantial damage and more useful utility. Now, after the changes you have a few reasons to ponder over taking DM or not which at the same time make _unholy sanctuary_ more appaeling. We aren't anymore in the pre patch game, there was a shift of power in the necromancer traitlines and it mean that we need to adapt to move forward.

 

sry but what you say is just wrong. unholy Sanctuary NEVER saved any necromancer. it leaves you with 1% life when you enter shroud with it while the lifeforce is draining heavily. **you CANNOT get healed while in shroud** so when you Exit shroud you are still very low life and one shot for everything. while endure pain saves 50 % of your life from one shot Bursts. to Claim both traits are equal is so heavily wrong… imo it would be way better if they create something like automated medical Response(engi trait) that refresh shroud entry when you reach 50% life or something like that instead of a trait that neither saves you from anything nor really helps you to win a fight.

 

also Soul reaping is THE traitline to improve your shroud mechanic (increase lifeforce, better lifeforce gain by skills), and since shroud is the only useful offense and only existing defense of necro (since half of necromancer weapon skills are completely useless - Focus 4, staff 1,....) its obvious that it automatically increase both offense and defense. but now with last gasp removal they killed the defense of necro because they set it in a still dead traitline. if you use DM over spite as power now you loose half of your boonhate(loosing LSS and SS) and dmg (vuln by bitter chill+might), while still getting no substantial defense. if you still use spite, the last patch killed half of your Sustain (because LSA got lost) and dmg (no crits on offense procs). whatever you choose, its way weaker than before, so you cant move Forward, cause you insta die then. xD

 

everyone ever Claims necro dmg is so strong, but i didnt see a necromancer one shotting anyone with 40k+ in under 1 sec out of invis (like soulbeast, Mirage).

also the "strong necro defense with shroud and barrier", but i have never seen 1 necromancer Standing in 60 enemies(wvw) alive for 10-15 seconds without dying (like warrior,mirage)

 

you say last gasp remove was necessary to balance necro traitlines between each other, but anet is just nerfing all traitlines down to DM Level. and Dm was a dead traitline for reasons. if EVERY traitline is weak like DM necro will be finally dead.

 

finally if they remove auto elix s and last gasp, while defy pain and stoneform remain, they MASSIVELY nerfing necro and engi twice and bring them in an disadvantage against warriors and rangers. and disadvantage is the opposite of balancing. People Claim passive lifesaver are necessary because of oneshots, but if thats true, why they remove it from necro and engi? and when this skills are unhealthy, why it remains on warrior and ranger? it is obvious that we can see here AGAIN double Standards in balancing of classes. one of the big Problems of anet where they are failing constantly. thats the reason game will never be balanced. because of double Standards. the favored classes will ever be OP against the non favored. as Long as that doenst changed, it is not balanced.

[Nekromalistik.7045]

> @"Sampson.2403" said:

> I'm in the FFA arena showing a buddy how to one shot as a GS mesmer. I tell him to go try it on a warrior who is AFK.

>

> He does a perfect mirror blade bounce into a jaunt 3 rack shatter mind stabbing all of it - you know that he sandwhiched it all with double mantra.

>

> AFK warrior procs defy pain. Friend is now in an insane asylum throwing imaginary mirror blades at a white padded wall.

>

> Defy pain and other traits like it insult the lessons taught to us by the Final Destination movie series. Thou shalt not defy death or crazy kitten happens.

 

I do not understand, do you complain about the warrior because you can not do a one shot? seriously? It is assumed that no class should be able to make a one-shot, in general it takes away a little sense of combat. Technically, you are praying that you are nerfing something that could make you face a mechanic that should not exist, maybe eliminate the possibility of doing one shot and play like the other classes. And after that there if it would be more reasonable to CHANGE the warrior trait

[otto.5684]

Considering its CD and effect I do not think it was on the same level as Elixir S. If the devs removed it, they should have reinstated something else in its place. Probably they did not have enough time (or where too lazy) to do so.

[Sampson.2403]

> @"Nekromalistik.7045" said:

> > @"Sampson.2403" said:

> > I'm in the FFA arena showing a buddy how to one shot as a GS mesmer. I tell him to go try it on a warrior who is AFK.

> >

> > He does a perfect mirror blade bounce into a jaunt 3 rack shatter mind stabbing all of it - you know that he sandwhiched it all with double mantra.

> >

> > AFK warrior procs defy pain. Friend is now in an insane asylum throwing imaginary mirror blades at a white padded wall.

> >

> > Defy pain and other traits like it insult the lessons taught to us by the Final Destination movie series. Thou shalt not defy death or crazy kitten happens.

>

> I do not understand, do you complain about the warrior because you can not do a one shot? seriously? It is assumed that no class should be able to make a one-shot, in general it takes away a little sense of combat. Technically, you are praying that you are nerfing something that could make you face a mechanic that should not exist, maybe eliminate the possibility of doing one shot and play like the other classes. And after that there if it would be more reasonable to CHANGE the warrior trait

 

One of the things that I really like about GW2 sPvP is the freedom that we have in building our characters. If you want to make an all-in 100% glass character like a "one-shot" mantra mes, you can, and there is a lot of risk & downside for doing so which balances it out in an sPvP match. There is plenty of active counter-play to one-shot builds.

 

If I perform the burst with 100% accuracy and you fail to actively respond, you should die. There is so much **active** counter-play to one shot builds. The GS mesmer one-shot doesn't even stun anymore, all you have to do is dodge. If the Mesmer catches you off guard / surprises you with a blind spot blink or +1s you, then the laws of risk & reward should pay out appropriately. Passive traits like defy pain are an insult to this model.

 

It's all about active game play. Playing 100% glass effectively in an sPvP match is already hard enough without having to maneuver around passive kitten traits like defy pain.

 

But let's not make this about one-shot builds, so i invite you to look at this scenario. If a warrior is at 51% health, and I'm on a "regular" build and I set up a perfect burst that does 52% of his max hp and I land it, he should be downed. I shouldn't have to "bait out" passive play by tickling the warrior until he procs the defy pain. I should be focusing on baiting out active counters like my opponents dodges and stun breaks and cleanses.

 

To hell with the passive play. Just give the active endure pain two charges, and get rid of the passive charge.

[Nekromalistik.7045]

> @"Sampson.2403" said:

> But let's not make this about one-shot builds, so i invite you to look at this scenario. If a warrior is at 51% health, and I'm on a "regular" build and I set up a perfect burst that does 52% of his max hp and I land it, he should be downed. I shouldn't have to "bait out" passive play by tickling the warrior until he procs the defy pain. I should be focusing on baiting out active counters like my opponents dodges and stun breaks and cleanses.

>

> To hell with the passive play. Just give the active endure pain two charges, and get rid of the passive charge.

 

With everything else you put in, I agree, but in this part I do not.

Technically you are telling me that you are aware that 50% will skip his passive, and instead of using your head and going down to 50% with a basic attack to spend his passive, you prefer to launch all your burst having knowledge of that passive ... there the problem is not the passive. the Passive bliss is to punish that, the impatience of the enemy. so easy that it is to wait 2 seconds ....

 

And, because nerf the elixir and not also the passive warrior?

Easy, the elixir affected both conditions and physical power

 

Why eliminate the elixir instead of changing it a little less brusque?

I do not know, logic of anet I suppose

 

(Edit: sorry if do not understand very well, my english requires practice)

[Sampson.2403]

@"Nekromalistik.7045" >

 

 

Ok - well I have no problem with the warrior having access to two endure pains. Why does one need to be passive though? Why not make the current one just have two charges?

 

I want the player to actively click their endure pain before or during my burst to stop it. Or actively dodge, or actively whatever to avoid it.

 

They really should just change defy pain and every trait like it the same way that they changed passive elixer s in the most recent patch.

[TheDevice.2751]

Class bias

[mortrialus.3062]

I think Defy Pain trait should turn the utility into an Ammo skill. Adds more active skill, and allows warriors more control and awareness of when both their Endure Pains are available.

[MyPuppy.8970]

What would be a warrior without passives anyway? Passive procs, passive heal, passive high hp, passive high armor, passive toughness, and so on. This is just the profession mechanic, like mesmers clones. We just have to deal with it.