The new balance - a conclusion

[Catchyfx.5768]

> @"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:

> > @"rabenpriester.7129" said:

> Actually I don't see here people looking for a new composition, I see people looking for the same meta but how to fix chrono. It's not my definition of Balance.

 

This

 

 

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> And here is my question because I don't have the time to do the calculations myself nor am I really interested in ~~wasting~~ investing my free time with it:

>

> **What exactly is the gear we have to use if we run 2 fb + 1 ren?** (Under the assumption we'll easily be able to respec the next balance patch when new gear will be introduced)

> I really wanna know how this turns out to be so much superior vs. double chrono, especially on Desmina but also on other bosses with a fixed tank spot.

> (And I don't want to have variants, it must be set in stone so we don't have downtimes, I only allow one of the tanks having a 2nd gear available for Demina!)

>

> (Edit: Keep in mind it must be puggable otherwise we have a way more strict comp and decisionmaking which speaks for running the "old" meta. So it has to be realistically applicable. Things like: here you go harrier ren and fb tank, the next ren tank and condi fb and then condi ren + condi fb are no valid solution)

 

We went with renegade tank/healer

Condi firebrands (viper with firebrand rune, smoldering and concentration sigil)

As well as harrier druid

 

For us this worked good. Sure we had to go for slightly different tactics on some bosses than we used to.

For example sloth where we used to have supporters eat the shrooms.

 

We did largos twins cm with double chrono because this comp was more save.

But overall, we had pretty good results. We only did one full clear though leaving out Deimos due to lack of time.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Raid : 10 players.

No one has said we should ban Chrono, no one said we should copy/paste group 1 to group 2. We're looking for more effective boonshare. Chrono has is place, because of aggro, pull, distortion etc; but for alacrity quickness fury etc there are others solutions (and better, I claim) for the main DPS group than chrono-druid.

That's simple.

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

About theory-crafting:

- Has anyone really thought out of the box and tried full dps (10) with slight modifications: like own healing and boon application (in other words everyone is self-sufficient), or does that not work?

- Or a team composition build solely around [unscathed Contender](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unscathed_Contender)?

- Or a team composition focusing on 100% Fear duration in combination with: [Dread](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dread)?

- Etc.

 

_Maybe_ we are too narrow-minded on this fixed boon-meta (either by Chrono or FB/Ren) and should take a step back and consider more options than that!

Or maybe I'm completely wrong here and these kind of ideas are just plain stupid and won't work (for whatever reason). They're genuine questions, after all!

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> We went with renegade tank/healer

> Condi firebrands (viper with firebrand rune, smoldering and concentration sigil)

> As well as harrier druid

>

> For us this worked good. Sure we had to go for slightly different tactics on some bosses than we used to.

> For example sloth where we used to have supporters eat the shrooms.

>

> We did largos twins cm with double chrono because this comp was more save.

> But overall, we had pretty good results. We only did one full clear though leaving out Deimos due to lack of time.

 

This one would support my team still using 2 chronos because we already full cleared on Monday with the old comp without having any issues related to the chrono nerf. Our (stupid) wipes resulted on player fails and funnily on some of the easier bosses not in consequence of some lacking of boons.

But thank you for your reply though.

I'm still not convinced about the superiority, hmm...

 

Edit: And the answer of Desmina and the two tanks is still missing.

[MrFoooster.8192]

make seize the moment and flow of time aoe boon share ( why it has to use utilities to gave boons ratherthan ‘f’ skills? )! and revertbountiful dissolution( boon share on mesmer %90 ripped )( this can be arguable)

! ooorr rework inspiration signet ( again ). this utility turned to support the support skills of other classes now... ( just why? )

[Obtena.7952]

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > I don't see a reason they need to ... it's not like there are so few comps that can complete content where raids need to be toned down to those comps. Maybe if people didn't try to just play how some website tells them, they would realize there ARE solutions to complete content outside of their narrow ideas of what they have been told is optimal.

> >

> > See, this is the problem with pushing meta ... hardly any players know how to figure out how to play for themselves anymore. The can't figure out what to do when something changes.

>

> for a lot of people it isn´t about completing the content anymore, if you are just in for the loot, maybe it isn´t the right content for you anyway. you can pretty much kill almost every boss with 10 necros autoatacking, but would that be fun? and thats the problem right now, you can either choose to play without optimal boons which is super akward and feels cluncky or play a super strict settup that make anoying (yes there are no hard mechanics, just anoying ones) mechanics even more anoying. missing out alc/quickness especially when you simply went for deleting a bomb at sabetha is the wort feeling ever. doing mechanics should be rewarding not punishing for your own gameplay expierience,

 

If the content isn't about completion and about the 'fun', then why is the thread complaining about how difficult the content is to complete? Seems to me we should stick to the thread for now.

 

The idea that the raid design team needs to talk to the class balance team so that raids are not harder to complete makes no sense. The OP dislikes stack mechanics because it's a punishment to do so from a performance perspective; that is very much speaking to the content completion in my book.

 

Anet knows what mechanics are possible to do in a raid, they know by what margins teams are successful at completing them. Stats they have will tell them what is reasonable for class changes and what isn't. The idea that these two groups talk to 'hard-engineer' raids is unnecessary and not based on what is happening in the game.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> When rebalancung Fb (since the build is insanely op atm)

that's funny

 

 

[sigur.9453]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > I don't see a reason they need to ... it's not like there are so few comps that can complete content where raids need to be toned down to those comps. Maybe if people didn't try to just play how some website tells them, they would realize there ARE solutions to complete content outside of their narrow ideas of what they have been told is optimal.

> > >

> > > See, this is the problem with pushing meta ... hardly any players know how to figure out how to play for themselves anymore. The can't figure out what to do when something changes.

> >

> > for a lot of people it isn´t about completing the content anymore, if you are just in for the loot, maybe it isn´t the right content for you anyway. you can pretty much kill almost every boss with 10 necros autoatacking, but would that be fun? and thats the problem right now, you can either choose to play without optimal boons which is super akward and feels cluncky or play a super strict settup that make anoying (yes there are no hard mechanics, just anoying ones) mechanics even more anoying. missing out alc/quickness especially when you simply went for deleting a bomb at sabetha is the wort feeling ever. doing mechanics should be rewarding not punishing for your own gameplay expierience,

>

> If the content isn't about completion and about the 'fun', then why is the thread complaining about how difficult the content is to complete? Seems to me we should stick to the thread for now.

>

> The idea that the raid design team needs to talk to the class balance team so that raids are not 'impossible' to complete makes no sense. Anet knows what mechanics are possible to do in a raid, they know by what margins teams are successful at completing them. Stats they have will tell them what is reasonable for class changes and what isn't. The idea that these two groups talk to 'hard-engineer' raids is unnecessary and not based on what is happening in the game.

 

Did you read op? I don't see the word difficult. Raids are still easy, but a bit more annoying or unfun you could say.

[Yasi.9065]

> @"phs.6089" said:

> So, what happened to 'Raids are easy AF?' If a single class could cheeze it to the grade of being easy AF, clearly there was something wrong, no?

 

You are confusing the issues. Doable is not the same as enjoyable. Loot in raids is so bad, people like me do it for fun. I have enough LIs to create 2 sets of each legendary armor on my main account alone. So loot is in no way enough incentive to clear raids even once a month.

 

Raids ARE easy. Enrage timers havent been an issue since W3 release. Is it fun though, to mindlessly, numbly pummel a boss while getting healed by 3-5 heal-supporters? Not having to watch for mechanics? God, no. Its horrid, Id rather go whack the test arena golem for hours. Does this make it challenging? Again, emphatic no. So, yeah... raids ARE easy. And even more so with current balancing. Just bring 4x boss specific top dps, 1 bs, 1 druid, 2 fb or chronos, 1 healer or heal renegade and another dps slot for special mechanics/cleave.

 

Horrible balance.

 

Because this:

a) forces DPS to go for top dps again instead of "enough dps", which as we noticed correctly 2 years ago already, breeds lots of toxicity,

b) forces you to change around after each boss, turning raiding into waiting room simulator v2.0 and

c) increases clear time by a lot.

 

Current balance you are either top tier speedclear team, maybe having fun (though for me, relogging constantly isnt fun, but well... thats subjective) or low tier team bringing too much support to even bother dodging anything anymore.

 

And why? Because anet went and spread boons, that were used to balance raids/fractals, all over the place. No structure, no vision. Not to mention intrinsic matters like boon stacking or boon re-application were completely disregarded, or we wouldnt have the issues that we now have.

 

THATS the issue. Not that raids have become difficult. Newsflash, they havent. Quite the opposite, only pugs make it hard on themselves because they dont want to run the strict meta Anet created for them - go figure.

 

> @"Setz.9675" said:

> > @"Yasi.9065" said:

> > > @"Setz.9675" said:

> > > If not having permanent protection is an issue go bring a hammer guard.

> >

> > You do realize hammer guard symbol only works if you can stack and is 5 man? So you'd need to bring 2 of those. Loosing 12k dps on each, thats 24k less squad dps. Sorry, unacceptable.

> You do realise you can use GS/hammer and not permanently use hammer right? Losing a few thousand dps to survive an encounter thanks to protection is completely acceptable, and if protection wasnt needed, why bother in the first place?

 

You do realize that STILL doesnt solve the issue at all? Have you even READ anything I wrote? Sorry, but while I would normally never do that, Im not gonna read more of your posts until you can show at least a tiny bit of reading comprehension.

 

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> Druid is old meta tho since ren fb can do its job too

 

You still need druid for might and/or protection. A wh tempest could fill that slot too, but tempest doesnt have spirits... so....

 

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> **What exactly is the gear we have to use if we run 2 fb + 1 ren?** (Under the assumption we'll easily be able to respec the next balance patch when new gear will be introduced)

> I really wanna know how this turns out to be so much superior vs. double chrono, especially on Desmina but also on other bosses with a fixed tank spot.

> (And I don't want to have variants, it must be set in stone so we don't have downtimes, I only allow one of the tanks having a 2nd gear available for Demina!)

>

> (Edit: Keep in mind it must be puggable otherwise we have a way more strict comp and decisionmaking which speaks for running the "old" meta. So it has to be realistically applicable. Things like: here you go harrier ren and fb tank, the next ren tank and condi fb and then condi ren + condi fb are no valid solution)

 

It really depends on what your goal is. If you want overstacked protection or at least 100% protection, you have to use 2x healbrand. Fury can be achieved with either axe symbol, sword symbol or meditation trait. All have downsides. 25 Might can currently only be achieved with scepter symbol - which forces you to run meditation trait(line) if you dont want to have to bring yet another supporter into the mix.

 

Renegade needs around 30-40% boon duration without chronos SoI extension for perma alacrity. So either run some weird condi variant to get around 20-24k dps out of it, or go straight for harrier.

 

Druid cant cover protection alone, so not even 2x quickbrand, 1x condi alacrity renegade works on most bosses. Replace druid with boon herald and you get perma fury, perma protection, perma swiftness... nicely overstacked to last you long enough to do mechanics... but that means no vigor. And only pbaoe healing really. Im currently looking into a power-boon-herald build, but its rather meh. Tomorrow gonna see how boonherald+condi druid performs, though with 2 chronos and not fb/ren comp.

 

You have to keep in mind, that quickbrand+alacrity renegade only replaces your 2 chronos. Might isnt capped (its only around 5-10 from quickbrands), protection is basically non-existent. No vigor, no swiftness, no retaliation. Barely any regeneration. Its a condi-comp on top, so VG and KC you need some "extra" to even come close to any chrono/druid comp. Renegade ramp up time is pretty long, quickbrands are quite bursty. But yeah, so you need other sources for might, regen, protection, vigor, swiftness, retal. Vigor and retal you can forgo imo. Leaves regen, protection, swiftness and might. Druid can only really offer around 60% boon uptime on protection , if you have to move a lot it drops rapidly. Swiftness only for 1 group. Vigor permanent for 1 grp, the other could have some uptime from sunspirit though its way less than protection from stonespirit even. Might would be covered. Works on some bosses, on most harder ones it just doesnt.

 

So, alternative would be... shift more boons onto firebrands. Renegade doesnt have even enough access to boons, and since you only want one anyway... they would have to be 10man to keep it simple. So healfirebrands - harrier or givers. Can cover additionally protection, swiftness if theres no boonstrip, retal, a bit more might, adds a touch of vigor, regen is okay. Might still isnt 25, though, so you'd want to add at least a condi druid for that (because it brings frost spirit, entangle, cc pet compared to other might stackers). But that means, you now have a 2-healer comp, with 2 off-supporters doing a bit more dps than chrono team in the past, but tbh... its not much. Fb/ren comp suffers a lot from "looks good on paper, translates badly to actual raids".

 

For pugs the second variant is optimal for fb/ren comp. Though it means your dps have to do for example at least 1 green - maybe even 2. Because everytime you try to let one of your supporters do mechanics that take longer than 20 seconds, you loose boon uptime.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > When rebalancung Fb (since the build is insanely op atm)

> that's funny

>

>

 

Is it?

 

I know many people do not consider WvW or other game modes as relevant. Sure if all you look at is fractal and raid content then chrono is and has been insanely overpowered. How well was the build performing in all other content? Exactly. This has been the case for quite a while now.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > I don't see a reason they need to ... it's not like there are so few comps that can complete content where raids need to be toned down to those comps. Maybe if people didn't try to just play how some website tells them, they would realize there ARE solutions to complete content outside of their narrow ideas of what they have been told is optimal.

> > > >

> > > > See, this is the problem with pushing meta ... hardly any players know how to figure out how to play for themselves anymore. The can't figure out what to do when something changes.

> > >

> > > for a lot of people it isn´t about completing the content anymore, if you are just in for the loot, maybe it isn´t the right content for you anyway. you can pretty much kill almost every boss with 10 necros autoatacking, but would that be fun? and thats the problem right now, you can either choose to play without optimal boons which is super akward and feels cluncky or play a super strict settup that make anoying (yes there are no hard mechanics, just anoying ones) mechanics even more anoying. missing out alc/quickness especially when you simply went for deleting a bomb at sabetha is the wort feeling ever. doing mechanics should be rewarding not punishing for your own gameplay expierience,

> >

> > If the content isn't about completion and about the 'fun', then why is the thread complaining about how difficult the content is to complete? Seems to me we should stick to the thread for now.

> >

> > The idea that the raid design team needs to talk to the class balance team so that raids are not 'impossible' to complete makes no sense. Anet knows what mechanics are possible to do in a raid, they know by what margins teams are successful at completing them. Stats they have will tell them what is reasonable for class changes and what isn't. The idea that these two groups talk to 'hard-engineer' raids is unnecessary and not based on what is happening in the game.

>

> Did you read op? I don't see the word difficult. Raids are still easy, but a bit more annoying or unfun you could say.

 

yes I read it ... he was complaining about stacking mechanics punishing people for not stacking. That's a performance-based complaint ... even if the OP wants us to think it's not.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > I don't see a reason they need to ... it's not like there are so few comps that can complete content where raids need to be toned down to those comps. Maybe if people didn't try to just play how some website tells them, they would realize there ARE solutions to complete content outside of their narrow ideas of what they have been told is optimal.

> > > > >

> > > > > See, this is the problem with pushing meta ... hardly any players know how to figure out how to play for themselves anymore. The can't figure out what to do when something changes.

> > > >

> > > > for a lot of people it isn´t about completing the content anymore, if you are just in for the loot, maybe it isn´t the right content for you anyway. you can pretty much kill almost every boss with 10 necros autoatacking, but would that be fun? and thats the problem right now, you can either choose to play without optimal boons which is super akward and feels cluncky or play a super strict settup that make anoying (yes there are no hard mechanics, just anoying ones) mechanics even more anoying. missing out alc/quickness especially when you simply went for deleting a bomb at sabetha is the wort feeling ever. doing mechanics should be rewarding not punishing for your own gameplay expierience,

> > >

> > > If the content isn't about completion and about the 'fun', then why is the thread complaining about how difficult the content is to complete? Seems to me we should stick to the thread for now.

> > >

> > > The idea that the raid design team needs to talk to the class balance team so that raids are not 'impossible' to complete makes no sense. Anet knows what mechanics are possible to do in a raid, they know by what margins teams are successful at completing them. Stats they have will tell them what is reasonable for class changes and what isn't. The idea that these two groups talk to 'hard-engineer' raids is unnecessary and not based on what is happening in the game.

> >

> > Did you read op? I don't see the word difficult. Raids are still easy, but a bit more annoying or unfun you could say.

>

> yes I read it ... he was complaining about stacking mechanics punishing people for not stacking. That's a performance-based complaint ... even if the OP wants us to think it's not.

 

It is not, it actually is both a performance and boss mechanic based complaint... even if you want us to think it's not.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > When rebalancung Fb (since the build is insanely op atm)

> > that's funny

> >

> >

>

> Is it?

>

> I know many people do not consider WvW or other game modes as relevant. Sure if all you look at is fractal and raid content then chrono is and has been insanely overpowered. How well was the build performing in all other content? Exactly. This has been the case for quite a while now.

 

its just that it hasn't really changed at all. mes got nerfed and next in line is fb, even tho its capped at 5 targets.

[Yasi.9065]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > When rebalancung Fb (since the build is insanely op atm)

> > > that's funny

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Is it?

> >

> > I know many people do not consider WvW or other game modes as relevant. Sure if all you look at is fractal and raid content then chrono is and has been insanely overpowered. How well was the build performing in all other content? Exactly. This has been the case for quite a while now.

>

> its just that it hasn't really changed at all. mes got nerfed and next in line is fb, even tho its capped at 5 targets.

 

I try to formulate it differently. The problem with last "balance" patch isnt that chrono was nerfed, it had it coming. Problem is that they didnt simultaneously fix the problems known to them for months that alternative comps face.

 

Yes, fb/ren has more stability and aegis. Thats nice. But does it help against unblockable dmg? Well no. And theres quite a bit unblockable/undodgeable dmg in raids/fractals, for which you'd need protection to reduce that dmg to a level that you dont get downed by it. Most prominent is dhuum encounter, but also ticking arena dmg on some encounters is pretty high.

 

Did nerfing chrono fix the problem that fb/ren comp has in regards to it being a rather rigid rotation, leaving nearly no room for mechanics? No.

 

Instead, were before you could add a druid to that comp, or a chrono to supplement missing boons... you cant anymore, its not enough.

 

Did chrono nerf help with the comp itself being unflexible and leaving barely any "open slots" due to missing role compression? Again - no.

 

Did chrono nerf and F2 buff help healherald? No. Natural harmony still eats too much energy, heals too much at once, isnt flexible enough. Making it a healer that only really works in situations that lets you stack tightly.

 

I could go on, but you get the gist (I hope :) )

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > I don't see a reason they need to ... it's not like there are so few comps that can complete content where raids need to be toned down to those comps. Maybe if people didn't try to just play how some website tells them, they would realize there ARE solutions to complete content outside of their narrow ideas of what they have been told is optimal.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > See, this is the problem with pushing meta ... hardly any players know how to figure out how to play for themselves anymore. The can't figure out what to do when something changes.

> > > > >

> > > > > for a lot of people it isn´t about completing the content anymore, if you are just in for the loot, maybe it isn´t the right content for you anyway. you can pretty much kill almost every boss with 10 necros autoatacking, but would that be fun? and thats the problem right now, you can either choose to play without optimal boons which is super akward and feels cluncky or play a super strict settup that make anoying (yes there are no hard mechanics, just anoying ones) mechanics even more anoying. missing out alc/quickness especially when you simply went for deleting a bomb at sabetha is the wort feeling ever. doing mechanics should be rewarding not punishing for your own gameplay expierience,

> > > >

> > > > If the content isn't about completion and about the 'fun', then why is the thread complaining about how difficult the content is to complete? Seems to me we should stick to the thread for now.

> > > >

> > > > The idea that the raid design team needs to talk to the class balance team so that raids are not 'impossible' to complete makes no sense. Anet knows what mechanics are possible to do in a raid, they know by what margins teams are successful at completing them. Stats they have will tell them what is reasonable for class changes and what isn't. The idea that these two groups talk to 'hard-engineer' raids is unnecessary and not based on what is happening in the game.

> > >

> > > Did you read op? I don't see the word difficult. Raids are still easy, but a bit more annoying or unfun you could say.

> >

> > yes I read it ... he was complaining about stacking mechanics punishing people for not stacking. That's a performance-based complaint ... even if the OP wants us to think it's not.

>

> It is not, it actually is both a performance and boss mechanic based complaint... even if you want us to think it's not.

 

Convince yourself whatever you will. If it's NOT a performance based discussion, why the hell would the OP suggest that the raid content devs talk to the balance team? That makes no sense either; balance team doesn't influence 'not fun' raids at all. So which is it?

 

The basic complaint is that the last balance reduced options for comps and made it more restrictive in play if you want to maintain performance.

[sigur.9453]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > I don't see a reason they need to ... it's not like there are so few comps that can complete content where raids need to be toned down to those comps. Maybe if people didn't try to just play how some website tells them, they would realize there ARE solutions to complete content outside of their narrow ideas of what they have been told is optimal.

> > > > >

> > > > > See, this is the problem with pushing meta ... hardly any players know how to figure out how to play for themselves anymore. The can't figure out what to do when something changes.

> > > >

> > > > for a lot of people it isn´t about completing the content anymore, if you are just in for the loot, maybe it isn´t the right content for you anyway. you can pretty much kill almost every boss with 10 necros autoatacking, but would that be fun? and thats the problem right now, you can either choose to play without optimal boons which is super akward and feels cluncky or play a super strict settup that make anoying (yes there are no hard mechanics, just anoying ones) mechanics even more anoying. missing out alc/quickness especially when you simply went for deleting a bomb at sabetha is the wort feeling ever. doing mechanics should be rewarding not punishing for your own gameplay expierience,

> > >

> > > If the content isn't about completion and about the 'fun', then why is the thread complaining about how difficult the content is to complete? Seems to me we should stick to the thread for now.

> > >

> > > The idea that the raid design team needs to talk to the class balance team so that raids are not 'impossible' to complete makes no sense. Anet knows what mechanics are possible to do in a raid, they know by what margins teams are successful at completing them. Stats they have will tell them what is reasonable for class changes and what isn't. The idea that these two groups talk to 'hard-engineer' raids is unnecessary and not based on what is happening in the game.

> >

> > Did you read op? I don't see the word difficult. Raids are still easy, but a bit more annoying or unfun you could say.

>

> yes I read it ... he was complaining about stacking mechanics punishing people for not stacking. That's a performance-based complaint ... even if the OP wants us to think it's not.

 

Its about group optimization and that its hard to find a good setup without having to change not only your dps on each encounter, but now also your whole support team. it apears you don´t care about optimization, so what are you even doing here exept derailing the thread?

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > I don't see a reason they need to ... it's not like there are so few comps that can complete content where raids need to be toned down to those comps. Maybe if people didn't try to just play how some website tells them, they would realize there ARE solutions to complete content outside of their narrow ideas of what they have been told is optimal.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > See, this is the problem with pushing meta ... hardly any players know how to figure out how to play for themselves anymore. The can't figure out what to do when something changes.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > for a lot of people it isn´t about completing the content anymore, if you are just in for the loot, maybe it isn´t the right content for you anyway. you can pretty much kill almost every boss with 10 necros autoatacking, but would that be fun? and thats the problem right now, you can either choose to play without optimal boons which is super akward and feels cluncky or play a super strict settup that make anoying (yes there are no hard mechanics, just anoying ones) mechanics even more anoying. missing out alc/quickness especially when you simply went for deleting a bomb at sabetha is the wort feeling ever. doing mechanics should be rewarding not punishing for your own gameplay expierience,

> > > > >

> > > > > If the content isn't about completion and about the 'fun', then why is the thread complaining about how difficult the content is to complete? Seems to me we should stick to the thread for now.

> > > > >

> > > > > The idea that the raid design team needs to talk to the class balance team so that raids are not 'impossible' to complete makes no sense. Anet knows what mechanics are possible to do in a raid, they know by what margins teams are successful at completing them. Stats they have will tell them what is reasonable for class changes and what isn't. The idea that these two groups talk to 'hard-engineer' raids is unnecessary and not based on what is happening in the game.

> > > >

> > > > Did you read op? I don't see the word difficult. Raids are still easy, but a bit more annoying or unfun you could say.

> > >

> > > yes I read it ... he was complaining about stacking mechanics punishing people for not stacking. That's a performance-based complaint ... even if the OP wants us to think it's not.

> >

> > It is not, it actually is both a performance and boss mechanic based complaint... even if you want us to think it's not.

>

> Convince yourself whatever you will. If it's NOT a performance based discussion, why the hell would the OP suggest that the raid content devs talk to the balance team? That makes no sense either; balance team doesn't influence 'not fun' raids at all. So which is it?

>

> The basic complaint is that the last balance reduced options for comps and made it more restrictive in play if you want to maintain performance.

 

Compositions are based around boss mechanics and game design. I'm not even sure how you can suggest otherwise.

 

Player performance very often plays less a role in meta comps designed by high skill raid guilds because all their players are top tier and as such the composition (which often get mirrored by the general community for lack of better understanding) are based around boss mechanics.

 

The complaint of TC as such makes sense, the balance team balances without the content in mind but simply with results say based on boon out put.

[Setz.9675]

> @"Yasi.9065" said:

 

> > @"Setz.9675" said:

> > > @"Yasi.9065" said:

> > > > @"Setz.9675" said:

> > > > If not having permanent protection is an issue go bring a hammer guard.

> > >

> > > You do realize hammer guard symbol only works if you can stack and is 5 man? So you'd need to bring 2 of those. Loosing 12k dps on each, thats 24k less squad dps. Sorry, unacceptable.

> > You do realise you can use GS/hammer and not permanently use hammer right? Losing a few thousand dps to survive an encounter thanks to protection is completely acceptable, and if protection wasnt needed, why bother in the first place?

>

> You do realize that STILL doesnt solve the issue at all? Have you even READ anything I wrote? Sorry, but while I would normally never do that, Im not gonna read more of your posts until you can show at least a tiny bit of reading comprehension.

 

Chrono's arent the sole supplyers of boons since post-patch and this is something too difficult to grasp for you. The part of ''STILL doesnt solve the issue at all'' isn't an issue at all, its you feeling entitled to having all boons all the time nothing more nothing less.

But do keep talking trash about raids, how they arent fun unless you can skip mechanics and turn bosses into health golems or how the rewards are bad even though raiding efficiently nets a person well over 30g/hour. Its really funny for me to see someone clowning around trying to hold on to the old ways.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > I don't see a reason they need to ... it's not like there are so few comps that can complete content where raids need to be toned down to those comps. Maybe if people didn't try to just play how some website tells them, they would realize there ARE solutions to complete content outside of their narrow ideas of what they have been told is optimal.

> > >

> > > See, this is the problem with pushing meta ... hardly any players know how to figure out how to play for themselves anymore. The can't figure out what to do when something changes.

> > That happens when you start to balance encounters around the top percenters in a game where performance of those can be several times greater than of average player.

> >

> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > Because these 2 firebrands together can easily do the same DPS as 1,5 regular DPS players.

> > Not if one of them is going to be a tank.

> > Forgot about that one, did you?

> >

> >

>

> Do we need a tank anymore?

On some (like MO) we do not (and we never did), but on most, yes, we still do, because the balance did not change anything about those fights. Good luck doing Desmina without two tanks, for most visible example.

 

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> If the content isn't about completion and about the 'fun', then why is the thread complaining about how difficult the content is to complete?

Because fake difficulty is not fun.

 

 

 

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Setz.9675" said:

> Chrono's arent the sole supplyers of boons since post-patch and this is something too difficult to grasp for you. The part of ''STILL doesnt solve the issue at all'' isn't an issue at all, its you feeling entitled to having all boons all the time nothing more nothing less.

> But do keep talking trash about raids, how they arent fun unless you can skip mechanics and turn bosses into health golems or how the rewards are bad even though raiding efficiently nets a person well over 30g/hour. Its really funny for me to see someone clowning around trying to hold on to the old ways.

 

A full raid clear is below 60g in total, excluding mats and drop luck. But mats are not that worth so your 30g/hour isn't really realistic. Not even speed clear guilds are clearing all 6 wings on the fly. Compared to other content and the fact that raids are and should be the most challenging content in the game its rewards are bad.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"phs.6089" said:

> So, what happened to 'Raids are easy AF?' If a single class could cheeze it to the grade of being easy AF, clearly there was something wrong, no?

 

Was sick this week. Sorry!!

 

I still think that raids arent that hard.

Cant speak for pugs, since i really dont want to suffer through that with the current balance.

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Setz.9675" said:

> > @"Yasi.9065" said:

>

> > > @"Setz.9675" said:

> > > > @"Yasi.9065" said:

> > > > > @"Setz.9675" said:

> > > > > If not having permanent protection is an issue go bring a hammer guard.

> > > >

> > > > You do realize hammer guard symbol only works if you can stack and is 5 man? So you'd need to bring 2 of those. Loosing 12k dps on each, thats 24k less squad dps. Sorry, unacceptable.

> > > You do realise you can use GS/hammer and not permanently use hammer right? Losing a few thousand dps to survive an encounter thanks to protection is completely acceptable, and if protection wasnt needed, why bother in the first place?

> >

> > You do realize that STILL doesnt solve the issue at all? Have you even READ anything I wrote? Sorry, but while I would normally never do that, Im not gonna read more of your posts until you can show at least a tiny bit of reading comprehension.

>

> Chrono's arent the sole supplyers of boons since post-patch and this is something too difficult to grasp for you. The part of ''STILL doesnt solve the issue at all'' isn't an issue at all, its you feeling entitled to having all boons all the time nothing more nothing less.

> But do keep talking trash about raids, how they arent fun unless you can skip mechanics and turn bosses into health golems or how the rewards are bad even though raiding efficiently nets a person well over 30g/hour. Its really funny for me to see someone clowning around trying to hold on to the old ways.

 

Chrono's weren't the sole suppliers of boons before the patch. That argument is m00t. Firebrand and Revenant were just as viable then. The only difference is that instead of addressing issues of why Firebrand and Revenant were not getting taken (even though especially Fireband was already THE go-to class in WvW next to Scrouge) Arenanet proceeded to nerf chrono, again. Also just like the last 3 nerfs, it simply shifted the imbalance. I've seen the first PUG groups search for dps chronos/mirages next to tank and support chrono (obviously for more SoI boon up-time).

 

Also your reward math is way off. Not sure if that indicates that you haven't ever actually speed cleared any raids and are just assuming and making numbers up.

 

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > If the content isn't about completion and about the 'fun', then why is the thread complaining about how difficult the content is to complete?

> Because fake difficulty is not fun.

 

This.

 

Anybody who assumes that veteran raiders (most at 1k+ LI) are having issues with raids due to difficulty has no clue how much this content is on farm status. There is nothing against shaking up the meta, but do it in a way which does not create un-fun hurdles because classes aren't given proper tools to deal with raid boss mechanics.

[Setz.9675]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Setz.9675" said:

> > > @"Yasi.9065" said:

> >

> > > > @"Setz.9675" said:

> > > > > @"Yasi.9065" said:

> > > > > > @"Setz.9675" said:

> > > > > > If not having permanent protection is an issue go bring a hammer guard.

> > > > >

> > > > > You do realize hammer guard symbol only works if you can stack and is 5 man? So you'd need to bring 2 of those. Loosing 12k dps on each, thats 24k less squad dps. Sorry, unacceptable.

> > > > You do realise you can use GS/hammer and not permanently use hammer right? Losing a few thousand dps to survive an encounter thanks to protection is completely acceptable, and if protection wasnt needed, why bother in the first place?

> > >

> > > You do realize that STILL doesnt solve the issue at all? Have you even READ anything I wrote? Sorry, but while I would normally never do that, Im not gonna read more of your posts until you can show at least a tiny bit of reading comprehension.

> >

> > Chrono's arent the sole supplyers of boons since post-patch and this is something too difficult to grasp for you. The part of ''STILL doesnt solve the issue at all'' isn't an issue at all, its you feeling entitled to having all boons all the time nothing more nothing less.

> > But do keep talking trash about raids, how they arent fun unless you can skip mechanics and turn bosses into health golems or how the rewards are bad even though raiding efficiently nets a person well over 30g/hour. Its really funny for me to see someone clowning around trying to hold on to the old ways.

>

> Chrono's weren't the sole suppliers of boons before the patch. That argument is m00t. Firebrand and Revenant were just as viable then. The only difference is that instead of addressing issues of why Firebrand and Revenant were not getting taken (even though especially Fireband was already THE go-to class in WvW next to Scrouge) Arenanet proceeded to nerf chrono, again. Also just like the last 3 nerfs, it simply shifted the imbalance. I've seen the first PUG groups search for dps chronos/mirages next to tank and support chrono (obviously for more SoI boon up-time).

Oh woops my bad, chrono didnt provide 25 might now my argument is m00t hahahaha, or let 2 proffs (rev+fb) replace 1 proff (chrono), people did this at the higher end of raiding wow dude you sure showed me my wrongs lmfao, also this is the raids/fractal/dungeon forum, good job moving the goalpost to WvW, you know the thing we werent discussing here at all.

> Also your reward math is way off. Not sure if that indicates that you haven't ever actually speed cleared any raids and are just assuming and making numbers up.

 

2.5-3 hours for full clear gold drops alone for 6 wings is more than 50gold. 400 ish HoT tokens from mini's/ascended salvage per week, 180 ish PoF tokens from clear/mini/salvage + exotics with sometimes a good sigil. HoT tokens --> ghostly infusion for 80g profit every 1k tokens, PoF tokens --> qadim statue stuff for 30g profit every 150 tokens, but my maffs way off n sheet and I dont know what the ef im talking about omegalul

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > If the content isn't about completion and about the 'fun', then why is the thread complaining about how difficult the content is to complete?

> > Because fake difficulty is not fun.

>

> This.

>

> Anybody who assumes that veteran raiders (most at 1k+ LI) are having issues with raids due to difficulty has no clue how much this content is on farm status. There is nothing against shaking up the meta, but do it in a way which does not create un-fun hurdles because classes aren't given proper tools to deal with raid boss mechanics.

what the hell is fake difficulty? un-fun bosses because you blindly stare at pure dps classes that sacrifice everything to get bigger numbers suddenly dont have the tools do deal with the boss. Classes have plenty of tools, people simply dont use them.

[Setz.9675]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"Setz.9675" said:

> > Chrono's arent the sole supplyers of boons since post-patch and this is something too difficult to grasp for you. The part of ''STILL doesnt solve the issue at all'' isn't an issue at all, its you feeling entitled to having all boons all the time nothing more nothing less.

> > But do keep talking trash about raids, how they arent fun unless you can skip mechanics and turn bosses into health golems or how the rewards are bad even though raiding efficiently nets a person well over 30g/hour. Its really funny for me to see someone clowning around trying to hold on to the old ways.

>

> A full raid clear is below 60g in total, excluding mats and drop luck. But mats are not that worth so your 30g/hour isn't really realistic. Not even speed clear guilds are clearing all 6 wings on the fly. Compared to other content and the fact that raids are and should be the most challenging content in the game its rewards are bad.

 

And thats where you are wrong buddy. Because a full raid clear can easily be done in < 3.5 hours if you arent bad and not have people take breaks after every boss.

Gold rewards alone from the bosses is always >50gold due to 2 wings being double rewards. Then you convert your mini's into tokens and weapons/armor drops as well netting you every week around 400 HoT tokens, and for every 1k tokens you buy a ghostly infusion and sell it for a modest 80g profit. PoF wings nets you 200 ish tokens every week which you use to buy the jinn/qadim statue stuff for another 30g profit /week or save it up for that dhuum chair for a nice 300 ish gold profit. Which in totals nets you arent 30g/hour. Also if you arent converting your armors and weapons into tokens your profit is even larger because a single ascended weapon/armor piece costs 40-70g to craft which you dont have to do thansk to your drops.