Resurrection and Desmina

[James Orland.9786]

So in Guild Wars 1, players had resurrection skills, and if they died there were resurrection shrines. Now, we have the "downed" and "defeated" states, but it seems like death is pretty final. What changed?

The most obvious answer is that Grenth left and Dhuum took his place as good of death, after escaping his shackles. Now, the main difference between them is that Dhuum believed death should be final, and disallowed resurrections and undeath, while Grenth was far more lenient and even let mortals visit the Underworld now and then.

Now we've sealed Dhuum again, and Desmina has taken the throne of the Underworld. Does that mean that resurrection magic will return to the world? Will it only affect humans, since the other races don't go to the same place? (Where do they go anyway?)

[Dante.1763]

> @"James Orland.9786" said:

> So in Guild Wars 1, players had resurrection skills, and if they died there were resurrection shrines. Now, we have the "downed" and "defeated" states, but it seems like death is pretty final. What changed?

> The most obvious answer is that Grenth left and Dhuum took his place as good of death, after escaping his shackles. Now, the main difference between them is that Dhuum believed death should be final, and disallowed resurrections and undeath, while Grenth was far more lenient and even let mortals visit the Underworld now and then.

> Now we've sealed Dhuum again, and Desmina has taken the throne of the Underworld. Does that mean that resurrection magic will return to the world? Will it only affect humans, since the other races don't go to the same place? (Where do they go anyway?)

 

Dhuum never took over as god of death. Dhuum had around the same amount of power that Balthazar had and used that power to take over the underworld, Desmina is just in charge of the Underworld until, or if, Grenth returns.

[Aracz.4702]

> @"James Orland.9786" said:

> Now we've sealed Dhuum again, and Desmina has taken the throne of the Underworld. Does that mean that resurrection magic will return to the world? Will it only affect humans, since the other races don't go to the same place? (Where do they go anyway?)

 

During story, Commander after death goes to Doman of the Lost no matter of choosen race, and you can even find there ghosts of other races.

And what happens to your soul after death doesn't depend of your race, but from your deeds and way you dead. For example, Doman of the Lost is "house" for souls of persons who died in traumatic ways (quote from wiki: "Domain of the Lost is part of the Underworld. It is where those who died too traumatic a death and forgot themselves go").

Probably every newly-dead soul is going to one of the domains in the Underworld, a house of Grenth and Ravem (Spirit of the wild), then they are judged and sent to their final destinations. But in matter of deeds, it's possible to find other fate after death (for sure your fate after judgement depend on what you did during life). Mists are endless and still expanding, we can suspect that there are more domains, but for sure where you go don't depend on race, but on what you did during your life. Powerful beings from the Mists aren't racists and they for sure understand why particular person did during live what he/she did :P (okay, not the evil beings)

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Aracz.4702" said:

> > @"James Orland.9786" said:

> > Now we've sealed Dhuum again, and Desmina has taken the throne of the Underworld. Does that mean that resurrection magic will return to the world? Will it only affect humans, since the other races don't go to the same place? (Where do they go anyway?)

>

> During story, Commander after death goes to Doman of the Lost no matter of choosen race, and you can even find there ghosts of other races.

> And what happens to your soul after death doesn't depend of your race, but from your deeds and way you dead. For example, Doman of the Lost is "house" for souls of persons who died in traumatic ways (quote from wiki: "Domain of the Lost is part of the Underworld. It is where those who died too traumatic a death and forgot themselves go").

 

Well, in a way, race does matter. Or more specifically, religious belief which is tied heavily to culture and, as such, race. Those who forget themselves go to the Domain of the Lost, but after they find themselves again they go to their intended afterlife, which is determined not just by deeds but belief.

 

That's why [Nicholas](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nicholas_%28ghost%29) and [Yngvild](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Yngvild) decided not to move on. Despite having the same deeds in life, their beliefs differ so their afterlife would as well, but they didn't want to separate.

 

This would, of course, mean that a non-human who believed in Grenth will take their final place in the Icy Wastes or Forgotten Vale depending on their devotion levels. But most will end up being human (and Forgotten and dwarf) due to the faith of Grenth being strongest in those races.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

From how the Asura PC talks about the Eternal Alchemy I imagine they just rejoin the cycle in some manner usually. What's more ambiguous is Sylvari and Charr. Well apart from Olmakhan who I imagine have their own afterlife.

[Ayakaru.6583]

> @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> From how the Asura PC talks about the Eternal Alchemy I imagine they just rejoin the cycle in some manner usually. What's more ambiguous is Sylvari and Charr. Well apart from Olmakhan who I imagine have their own afterlife.

 

Didn’t the charr originally believe in the “eternal warfields”? Or something like that.

One long glorious battle into eternity

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > From how the Asura PC talks about the Eternal Alchemy I imagine they just rejoin the cycle in some manner usually. What's more ambiguous is Sylvari and Charr. Well apart from Olmakhan who I imagine have their own afterlife.

>

> Didn’t the charr originally believe in the “eternal warfields”? Or something like that.

> One long glorious battle into eternity

 

I don't think we've ever heard anything about charr afterlife beliefs. You probably got that from a fan theory. TBH, that sounds like the Fissure of Woe, in all honesty anyways, with the Eternal Battle that wasn't so eternal.

[James Orland.9786]

If you check the Raid Wing 5 dialogue, players from other races are all relieved that they're not going to the Underworld, while the human player says they hope this isn't their final stop there, which strongly suggests something about race.

 

But also, does this mean Grenth's continued absence implies that resurrections are still unavailable?

[ThatOddOne.4387]

Still available but under certain circumstances, judging by the Commander being, well, resurrected. The Judge seems to have some sort of control over that.

 

(Still lowkey think the Judge is an aspect of Grenth himself, hence personal-sounding "Remind Balthazar not even a God escapes judgement" quote)

[crepuscular.9047]

> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> Still available but under certain circumstances, judging by the Commander being, well, resurrected. The Judge seems to have some sort of control over that.

>

> (Still lowkey think the Judge is an aspect of Grenth himself, hence personal-sounding "Remind Balthazar not even a God escapes judgement" quote)

 

The judge is just like Desmina and the 7 reapers, but it seems the judge either died or left according to Hall of Chain's dialogue with Desmina

 

> Commander: And what happens now? There's no one left to rule the Underworld.

> Desmina: Isn't there?

> Desmina: Now leave me.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

That doesn't really imply the Judge has left. Why would he leave anyway?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

It kind of does imply the Judge left or died, since the Judge would be someone to lead the Underworld, and the dialogue states there's no one (but Desmina) left to rule the Underworld.

[Zania.8461]

Quick question re: Desmina.

 

How likely was entirety of HoC to have been calculated ploy by Desmina to implant herself as the new ruler of the Underworld? She recovered her strength just in time to make sure that Reapers died and Dhuum got sealed. She claims the Underworld will run "efficiently" without the Reapers...and while she claims to be loyal to Grenth, she 1) States that Grenth "fled" 2) Will do his bidding "as she sees fit". Bottom line, Grenth no longer maintains the River of Souls, and its power is in Desmina's hands.

 

Adding to this the quote from developer: "The Reapers again, as has been happening for thousands of years, have come to reseal Dhuum. Maybe it goes a little wrong this time. Maybe someone meant for that to happen, maybe someone didn't, you know. It sort of remains to be seen." Now who could have POSSIBLY planned something like that?

 

So the questions are:

1) Did she plan this (killing off all other powers in the Underworld in a Dhuum cycle) from the start or did she get lucky?

2) With Judge (likely) gone as well, will the souls be still judged and pass to some afterlife, or are they stuck at Desmina's mercy?

2) Is she planning to supplant Grenth as Goddess of Death in power if not (immediately) in title?

 

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

1.) Speaking personally, it reads more like irritated opportunism to me. Desmina seems to be taking Grenth's departure personally (and who could blame her?) and that seems to be the driving force behind the power grab. I do think she planned the Reapers' deaths, but I think that's something she arrived at after Grenth's departure and Dhuum's escape.

2.) Depends on Desmina, I imagine. We don't know what her endgame here is; it could be anything from 'I'm going to do Grenth's job but better', in which case the souls are probably moving on fine, to 'I'm going to tear this all down in a fit of pique', in which case she's potentially in a position to dismantle the afterlife system altogether.

3.) It's not clear, but I doubt that, if only because she'd have trouble finding an opportunity. The only way to supplant a god's power is to take it from the god in question, and this whole mess is due to the fact that Grenth is out of her reach to begin with.

[Yannir.4132]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> It kind of does imply the Judge left or died, since the Judge would be someone to lead the Underworld, and the dialogue states there's no one (but Desmina) left to rule the Underworld.

 

Judges are not rulers so it implies nothing IMO.

Having the weight of ruling on him would compromise the Judges verdicts. So it even makes sense that Grenth would have a judge to hand out impartial judgments as he himself as the ruler is not neutral in all things.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Yannir.4132" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > It kind of does imply the Judge left or died, since the Judge would be someone to lead the Underworld, and the dialogue states there's no one (but Desmina) left to rule the Underworld.

>

> Judges are not rulers so it implies nothing IMO.

> Having the weight of ruling on him would compromise the Judges verdicts. So it even makes sense that Grenth would have a judge to hand out impartial judgments as he himself as the ruler is not neutral in all things.

 

Judges are the authority in courthouses, they're more than just effectively the rulers of courtrooms, and the Underworld is essentially one giant courthouse. Grenth is the god of judgment, he's the one who is said to judge all this time. Are you saying Grenth never ruled the Underworld?

 

The Judge wouldn't be judging so that Grenth could be impartial; he'd be judging because a singular being can't be expected to judge each and every singular soul. It's not for impartiality, Grenth's impartial as it is, it's for delegation.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Yannir.4132" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > It kind of does imply the Judge left or died, since the Judge would be someone to lead the Underworld, and the dialogue states there's no one (but Desmina) left to rule the Underworld.

>

> Judges are not rulers so it implies nothing IMO.

> Having the weight of ruling on him would compromise the Judges verdicts. So it even makes sense that Grenth would have a judge to hand out impartial judgments as he himself as the ruler is not neutral in all things.

 

Judges are the authority in courthouses, they're more than just effectively the rulers of courtrooms, and the Underworld is essentially one giant courthouse. Grenth is the god of judgment, he's the one who is said to judge all this time. Are you saying Grenth never ruled the Underworld?

 

The Judge wouldn't be judging so that Grenth could be impartial; he'd be judging because a singular being can't be expected to judge each and every singular soul. It's not for impartiality, Grenth's impartial as it is, it's for delegation.