It is time to remove 40% endurance food

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> > People ask for nerfs on some Roaming builds because they are overtuned. People want fairer fights. It's not a bad thing to ask for. Yes Roaming builds should be stronger for 1v1, but not so strong that they constantly outperform other classes for the same thing. There should be a balance. Zerg builds should be balanced for zerging and roaming builds should be balanced for roaming. Mirage consistently beats all roaming classes. It is overtuned, therefore it needs to be better balanced for Ranger and Thief to be able to take it on. I hate the fact that two of the three main roaming builds all have lots of stealth and very high mobility, add in Food that gives both of these classes with high number of evades an extra dodge and it's nearly impossible to win. Unless mistakes are made by Thief or Mesmer, Ranger has a very hard time taking them on.

>

> You say that except I watched a soulbeast (not even boonbeast) running around almost completely immune to condi mirage in a 1v1. It was a fight neither could win, soulbeast too much cleanses and gap openers/kiting and mirage couldn't keep up. Course if either messed up they'd have died.

>

> So saying it's just a mirage problem is dishonest, ranger in general is a huge issue for roaming too or have you missed the 10k auto soulbeasts or the constantly resetting immob spam druids that never really got nerfed like they did in PvP?

>

> Also zergs, yeah, sure. Guardian has been meta 2012-now everyone would quit if they really balanced that, read nerfed guardian so something else was meta.

 

The player you quoted knows.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> > > People ask for nerfs on some Roaming builds because they are overtuned. People want fairer fights. It's not a bad thing to ask for. Yes Roaming builds should be stronger for 1v1, but not so strong that they constantly outperform other classes for the same thing. There should be a balance. Zerg builds should be balanced for zerging and roaming builds should be balanced for roaming. Mirage consistently beats all roaming classes. It is overtuned, therefore it needs to be better balanced for Ranger and Thief to be able to take it on. I hate the fact that two of the three main roaming builds all have lots of stealth and very high mobility, add in Food that gives both of these classes with high number of evades an extra dodge and it's nearly impossible to win. Unless mistakes are made by Thief or Mesmer, Ranger has a very hard time taking them on.

> >

> > You say that except I watched a soulbeast (not even boonbeast) running around almost completely immune to condi mirage in a 1v1. It was a fight neither could win, soulbeast too much cleanses and gap openers/kiting and mirage couldn't keep up. Course if either messed up they'd have died.

> >

> > So saying it's just a mirage problem is dishonest, ranger in general is a huge issue for roaming too or have you missed the 10k auto soulbeasts or the constantly resetting immob spam druids that never really got nerfed like they did in PvP?

> >

> > Also zergs, yeah, sure. Guardian has been meta 2012-now everyone would quit if they really balanced that, read nerfed guardian so something else was meta.

>

> The player you quoted knows.

 

Oh I didn't pick up the sarcasm on the last line I guess with them saying ranger has a hard time taking on mesmer and thief. My bad, thanks for letting me know.

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> > > > People ask for nerfs on some Roaming builds because they are overtuned. People want fairer fights. It's not a bad thing to ask for. Yes Roaming builds should be stronger for 1v1, but not so strong that they constantly outperform other classes for the same thing. There should be a balance. Zerg builds should be balanced for zerging and roaming builds should be balanced for roaming. Mirage consistently beats all roaming classes. It is overtuned, therefore it needs to be better balanced for Ranger and Thief to be able to take it on. I hate the fact that two of the three main roaming builds all have lots of stealth and very high mobility, add in Food that gives both of these classes with high number of evades an extra dodge and it's nearly impossible to win. Unless mistakes are made by Thief or Mesmer, Ranger has a very hard time taking them on.

> > >

> > > You say that except I watched a soulbeast (not even boonbeast) running around almost completely immune to condi mirage in a 1v1. It was a fight neither could win, soulbeast too much cleanses and gap openers/kiting and mirage couldn't keep up. Course if either messed up they'd have died.

> > >

> > > So saying it's just a mirage problem is dishonest, ranger in general is a huge issue for roaming too or have you missed the 10k auto soulbeasts or the constantly resetting immob spam druids that never really got nerfed like they did in PvP?

> > >

> > > Also zergs, yeah, sure. Guardian has been meta 2012-now everyone would quit if they really balanced that, read nerfed guardian so something else was meta.

> >

> > The player you quoted knows.

>

> Oh I didn't pick up the sarcasm on the last line I guess with them saying ranger has a hard time taking on mesmer and thief. My bad, thanks for letting me know.

 

In his limited defense, ranger has been kinda crap since launch, so giving them some form of viable build in WvW for one part of it I guess can be defended.

 

But to try to deny the sheer damage output that rivals every other build playing? It’s kinda laughable.

 

 

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> > > > People ask for nerfs on some Roaming builds because they are overtuned. People want fairer fights. It's not a bad thing to ask for. Yes Roaming builds should be stronger for 1v1, but not so strong that they constantly outperform other classes for the same thing. There should be a balance. Zerg builds should be balanced for zerging and roaming builds should be balanced for roaming. Mirage consistently beats all roaming classes. It is overtuned, therefore it needs to be better balanced for Ranger and Thief to be able to take it on. I hate the fact that two of the three main roaming builds all have lots of stealth and very high mobility, add in Food that gives both of these classes with high number of evades an extra dodge and it's nearly impossible to win. Unless mistakes are made by Thief or Mesmer, Ranger has a very hard time taking them on.

> > >

> > > You say that except I watched a soulbeast (not even boonbeast) running around almost completely immune to condi mirage in a 1v1. It was a fight neither could win, soulbeast too much cleanses and gap openers/kiting and mirage couldn't keep up. Course if either messed up they'd have died.

> > >

> > > So saying it's just a mirage problem is dishonest, ranger in general is a huge issue for roaming too or have you missed the 10k auto soulbeasts or the constantly resetting immob spam druids that never really got nerfed like they did in PvP?

> > >

> > > Also zergs, yeah, sure. Guardian has been meta 2012-now everyone would quit if they really balanced that, read nerfed guardian so something else was meta.

> >

> > The player you quoted knows.

>

> Oh I didn't pick up the sarcasm on the last line I guess with them saying ranger has a hard time taking on mesmer and thief. My bad, thanks for letting me know.

 

And my apologies. I didn’t mean my answer to sound so snarky to you. You were right to question him.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

the better mirages today dont really need to dodge on inc attack with this food, they just spam mirage cloak and abuse ambush,

[ferbz.6987]

> @"sfpops.1708" said:

> > @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

> > I'll let you in on a little secret - it's not even going to make a dent in whatever is troubling you if that food gets removed. You are looking at the wrong thing to pin the blame on. If this good gets removed, guess what? They will still be strong.

>

> Yeah, they will still be strong. The class is broken.

>

> But there is PvP tier broken and then there is WvW roaming/small scale broken. This food is a major culprit of how insanely OP they are in WvW at the moment. I will happily settle for something closer to PvP levels of broken and not have to deal with Mesmers with perma 40% endurance regen and 90% regen with Vigor.

 

You completely missed the mark there buddy. First, you are comparing apples to oranges. Second I'll leave it at that.

 

Happy gaming!

[enkidu.5937]

> @"dagger dave.5201" said:

> Anyone defending mirage would get farmed by camp guards all day on other specs

or 1 vs 1 against one of their clones :p

 

[Susy.7529]

Maybe you're right for WvW but don't you dare trying to remove them from PvE as well u.u

[KryTiKaL.3125]

Asking for a nerf to the foods isn't going to be the solution needed. It won't stop Mirage from being able to evade with Mirage Cloak even while they are CC'd, it won't stop Infinite Horizon from almost near negating one of the primary ways of countering Mirages (causing illusions to evade). People need to stop pointing at the wrong things, they are not the source of the problem they are just the *symptoms* of it. If you hit the endurance foods with a nerf then you would really only help Mirages in the long run by denying other classes more access to dodges to avoid the near constant vomiting of illusions and their shatters with conditions.

 

The foods are not the problem. You have to realize the reason they nerfed down the buffs that gave damage bonuses on movement is because it scaled damage up much higher than intended because in PvP you are always, or should always be, moving and it also made Rangers with their Rapid Fire even more intolerable if they strafed or moved while doing it.

 

> @"sfpops.1708" said:

> > @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

> > I'll let you in on a little secret - it's not even going to make a dent in whatever is troubling you if that food gets removed. You are looking at the wrong thing to pin the blame on. If this good gets removed, guess what? They will still be strong.

>

> Yeah, they will still be strong. The class is broken.

>

> But there is PvP tier broken and then there is WvW roaming/small scale broken. This food is a major culprit of how insanely OP they are in WvW at the moment. I will happily settle for something closer to PvP levels of broken and not have to deal with Mesmers with perma 40% endurance regen and 90% regen with Vigor.

 

This is not the approach that needs to be taken in regards to balance. You want them to nerf something that isn't even a part of the class because it keeps a mechanic of said class more active. The amount of dodges isn't even necessarily the problem with Mirage, its how Mirage Cloak is being used that creates these issues with Mirage that have existed for *months*.

 

This has been discussed in other threads on the forums and I maintain my suggestion for bringing Mirage more in line with other classes while still keeping them viable in PvP. Its really simple, actually.

 

Infinite Horizon: Slap a 15 to 20 second ICD on this trait due to just how frequently a Mirage can have Mirage Cloak usable, with or without the food buff. This would bring in some counter play against it so that players can force them to use Mirage Cloak to save their clones from an AoE attack that would otherwise wipe them out.

 

Mirage Cloak needs to be fixed so that a Mirage *can not* use it while they are CC'd. This is probably the biggest issue I see with Mirage right now because counterplay against its defenses typically requires pressuring and forcing them to use their defenses and timing bursts/CC around their defenses. However Mirage Cloak being usable while the Mirage is CC'd completely negates this and due to the *number* of defenses a Mirage has and how frequently Mirage Cloak can be available to them makes counterplay against something like Condi Mirage probably the most unfun, annoying, tedious experience in this game. Think of it in terms of if Spellbreaker could activate their Full Counter while they were CC'd on its 10 to 12 second cooldown, or on its 8 to 10 second cooldown before that nerf.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> Think of it in terms of if Spellbreaker could activate their Full Counter while they were CC'd on its 10 to 12 second cooldown, or on its 8 to 10 second cooldown before that nerf.

Wait, wait... you can CC a spellbreaker?!

 

[Timelord.8190]

Then the -10% damage taken also have to be removed. 10% extra damage when moving was to good but -10% dmg taken when not having to do anything is fine. Anet logic. lol

[KrHome.1920]

> @"sfpops.1708" said:

> Dodge on other classes =/= dodge on Mirage. Get rid of it, it basically makes Mirage Cloak which is a high damage/evade skill have 8 seconds base recharge, and 5.5 with vigor.

>

> If you play both PvP and WvW you would know just how drastically OP this is. PvP Mirage without this food is very different from the toxic roaming Mirage builds in WvW. 40% endurance regen is MASSIVE for the spec.

It's

 

energy sigil:

25 endurance in pvp, 50 endurance in wvw

 

adventurer rune:

25 endurance in pvp, 50 endurance in wvw

 

and to a lower extent: the food

 

You have to add all these effects to the mirage dodge mechanic (1s dodge time compared the 3/4s of other classes and the full fighting capability while dodging) to come to the result of ultimate brokeness.

 

Mirage is so strong in avoiding damage and mobility without having to stop attacking that it should deal much less damage **in wvw**.

[KrHome.1920]

_doublepost_

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

I said this before with scourge, and condi mirage (and I was right both times) and I guess I need to say it here...

 

Once the class gets nerfed to the point ppl will finally stop complaining, ya'all know you will move to another class right? Its an observation/trend ive noticed over the months/years. You people kind of remind me of PvP'ers and their forum.

 

Makes me seriously wonder...How much of these posts are truly l2p/complaining because its easy to as others are doing it? Ive played many classes in WvW the last couple months (as ive had urges to try others again) and ive fought some mirages (mainly condi as out of all mirages ive seen in WvW, most were condi by a vast margin) and the classes ive wiped them on were: Core engi (p/p), core guardian (GS/Sword+focus or sword+shield as ive tried both), Daredevil (D/P), and Druid (staff/LB) and I was able to beat the Mirages more often than not. I can say that none of these builds were Meta (as I dont run meta on any builds) and were done while solo/duo roaming. All of these builds however are not a "pick up and go"...Same for the DPS mirage build I run. Took me quite of while of tweaking and practicing/sparring and lots of adapting to overcome and finally win fights.

 

Tbh I enjoy fighting them (esp condi mirage) as ya beat em enough, they leave you alone instead of the other way around. The only real issue I see is Condi Mirage. When it comes to DPS, if they are not the 1 shot variety that runs sword, then they are not OP/unbalanced. I've played DPS mirage. Condi is cheesy af if you are even slightly decent at it. Even when im not running the endurance food (while on Mirage...also non meta) I still beat people. Not all the time but I get my fair share (and no, im not running Adventure runes but Traveler runes as I hate being slow lol)

 

With any class complaints, its becoming harder and harder to take seriously as some of the comments do come off as a l2p issue, but are QQing because its easier to do than to adapt (which lurking the forums as much as I do I see wayyyyy to much of compared to like 3-4 years ago).

 

If anyone is in NA and wants to actually learn to fight/beat a Mirage, I can get my DPS build together and we can spar.

 

Edit: inb4 I know I am going to get flak from a lot of ppl here. If anything, maybe it will prove some of my points. Who knows. Either way, I iz out . :)

[subversiontwo.7501]

One rather large reason as to why WvW metas and balance are somewhat stale is that they are getting too streamlined. There are less and less extreme and different things a class can build a role around. With that said, it is rather amusing that the OP suggests to streamline another aspect of the game that sticks out a little bit because he thinks it will help balance. Longer term, it will instead make things worse. All classes/specs can't do the same few things as well.

 

If you're looking at Mirages there is one glaringly obvious thing to adress should Anet want to adress them. If you boil it down bare bones, what the spec does that no other Mesmer spec has not done since vanilla, is that it grants a fair amount of mobility. The Mesmer has always been relegated to pure ambush (power) and counterplay (condi) tactics with little to no pursuit.

 

Now tanky condi builds can pursue and power ambush builds can be more agressive with their otherwise defensive cooldowns since they can always reset with mobility. All of that boils down to one single ability: ambush-leap on sword. That's why even a bunch of condi builds play sword now. Change that one ability and the Mesmer is back to being a rather low mobility class that can't pursue or reset like most other classes, again.

 

Then again, many other classes have always had the ability to do this combination of things so I'm not so sure why it would need a nerf. I do not see maps littered with Mesmers and they are not dominating the small-scale party scene or up. At least that is not my experience. However, if I would do something about the class that would be it, instead of ruining a bunch of other things that are fun or sticks out just to cater to my own fancies.

[coro.3176]

> @"subversiontwo.7501" said:

> One rather large reason as to why WvW metas and balance are somewhat stale is that they are getting too streamlined. There are less and less extreme and different things a class can build a role around. With that said, it is rather amusing that the OP suggests to streamline another aspect of the game that sticks out a little bit because he thinks it will help balance. Longer term, it will instead make things worse. All classes/specs can't do the same few things as well.

>

> If you're looking at Mirages there is one glaringly obvious thing to adress should Anet want to adress them. If you boil it down bare bones, what the spec does that no other Mesmer spec has not done since vanilla, is that it grants a fair amount of mobility. The Mesmer has always been relegated to pure ambush (power) and counterplay (condi) tactics with little to no pursuit.

>

> Now tanky condi builds can pursue and power ambush builds can be more agressive with their otherwise defensive cooldowns since they can always reset with mobility. All of that boils down to one single ability: ambush-leap on sword. That's why even a bunch of condi builds play sword now. Change that one ability and the Mesmer is back to being a rather low mobility class that can't pursue or reset like most other classes, again.

>

> Then again, many other classes have always had the ability to do this combination of things so I'm not so sure why it would need a nerf. I do not see maps littered with Mesmers and they are not dominating the small-scale party scene or up. At least that is not my experience. However, if I would do something about the class that would be it, instead of ruining a bunch of other things that are fun or sticks out just to cater to my own fancies.

 

I'd say the thing it does that no other spec can do (and is quite game-breaking) is dodge AFTER cc.

 

In GW2 you have:

* CC skills - typically long cooldown, long animation, difficult to land. There are exceptions, but for the most part you're looking at ~15s+ cooldowns

* Damage skills - the hard hitting ones typically require a CC to prevent the opponent from dodging to avoid the main burst

* Dodge - on a completely vanilla class with no vigor/runes/sigils/food, these grant 0.75s of invuln with 2 charges on a 10s cooldown. It also locks you into the animation for the duration of the skill.

* Stun breaks - typically on a very long cooldown (25-60s), typically take up a skill slot - These cancel a CC after it lands

 

Fundamentally Guild Wars 2 combat is based around this: **See enemy skill animation for damage or CC. React with dodge, avoid damage**. Because Dodges are on shorter cooldowns than CC and damage, but you only get 2 of them at a time, you need to carefully choose which attacks and CCs you dodge, and which you allow through. Also, you need to be paying attention and have good reflexes because a lot of the skills only have 0.5-0.75s animations. When you factor in lag, this makes them very difficult to dodge. If you screw up and get CC'd and are about to be damaged, you can burn a long-cooldown stunbreak to save you.

 

Now, Mirage breaks these rules in a few important ways:

* doesn't have to dodge before CC. can let CC happen and then dodge AFTER it happens, vastly reducing the skill required to play. Mirage no longer has to pay attention to incoming CCs until they happen, or if they are paying attention, they get an extra 0.25-0.5s to decide whether or not to dodge because they can let it hit them without consequence.

* can counterattack while dodging

 

If you're a hammer warrior, for example and you land your 25s cooldown, 1s animation Backbreaker hoping to follow up with damage, you want it to stick OR you want the opponent to have to burn a valuable stunbreak. Mirage is the only class in the game that can just dodge away on a very very very low cooldown without even having to use a skill. This is why all the dodge food, dodge sigils, dodge runes are so broken on Mirage in particular.

 

In WvW it gets:

* **6 extra dodges per minute** from Sigil of Energy

* **3 extra dodges per minute** from Rune of the Adventurer

* **6 extra dodges per minute** from Vigor and dodge food

 

Normal: **6 dodges per minute**

Running all the dodge boosts: **21 dodges per minute**, about **3.5x base**

 

So you can potentially be dodging about **once every 3 seconds**.

 

Then consider that Mirage dodges last **1s** instead of **0.75s**. That's an additional (21*0.25) **5s** of invuln per minute, stretching the advantage over a "normal" dodger to **4.375x**

 

Then consider that Mirage has additional skills that provide Mirage cloak, the advantage is closer to **5x that of a normal player's evade**.

 

That is pretty insane considering all the existing game-breaking benefits of Mirage's dodge compared to the normal dodge, like not even having to use it until after CC hits, or gaining reflect after every evade on basically no ICD (though, that is a core mirage trait).

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> > @"subversiontwo.7501" said:

> > One rather large reason as to why WvW metas and balance are somewhat stale is that they are getting too streamlined. There are less and less extreme and different things a class can build a role around. With that said, it is rather amusing that the OP suggests to streamline another aspect of the game that sticks out a little bit because he thinks it will help balance. Longer term, it will instead make things worse. All classes/specs can't do the same few things as well.

> >

> > If you're looking at Mirages there is one glaringly obvious thing to adress should Anet want to adress them. If you boil it down bare bones, what the spec does that no other Mesmer spec has not done since vanilla, is that it grants a fair amount of mobility. The Mesmer has always been relegated to pure ambush (power) and counterplay (condi) tactics with little to no pursuit.

> >

> > Now tanky condi builds can pursue and power ambush builds can be more agressive with their otherwise defensive cooldowns since they can always reset with mobility. All of that boils down to one single ability: ambush-leap on sword. That's why even a bunch of condi builds play sword now. Change that one ability and the Mesmer is back to being a rather low mobility class that can't pursue or reset like most other classes, again.

> >

> > Then again, many other classes have always had the ability to do this combination of things so I'm not so sure why it would need a nerf. I do not see maps littered with Mesmers and they are not dominating the small-scale party scene or up. At least that is not my experience. However, if I would do something about the class that would be it, instead of ruining a bunch of other things that are fun or sticks out just to cater to my own fancies.

>

> I'd say the thing it does that no other spec can do (and is quite game-breaking) is dodge AFTER cc.

>

> In GW2 you have:

> * CC skills - typically long cooldown, long animation, difficult to land. There are exceptions, but for the most part you're looking at ~15s+ cooldowns

> * Damage skills - the hard hitting ones typically require a CC to prevent the opponent from dodging to avoid the main burst

> * Dodge - on a completely vanilla class with no vigor/runes/sigils/food, these grant 0.75s of invuln with 2 charges on a 10s cooldown. It also locks you into the animation for the duration of the skill.

> * Stun breaks - typically on a very long cooldown (25-60s), typically take up a skill slot - These cancel a CC after it lands

>

> Fundamentally Guild Wars 2 combat is based around this: **See enemy skill animation for damage or CC. React with dodge, avoid damage**. Because Dodges are on shorter cooldowns than CC and damage, but you only get 2 of them at a time, you need to carefully choose which attacks and CCs you dodge, and which you allow through. Also, you need to be paying attention and have good reflexes because a lot of the skills only have 0.5-0.75s animations. When you factor in lag, this makes them very difficult to dodge. If you screw up and get CC'd and are about to be damaged, you can burn a long-cooldown stunbreak to save you.

>

> Now, Mirage breaks these rules in a few important ways:

> * doesn't have to dodge before CC. can let CC happen and then dodge AFTER it happens, vastly reducing the skill required to play. Mirage no longer has to pay attention to incoming CCs until they happen, or if they are paying attention, they get an extra 0.25-0.5s to decide whether or not to dodge because they can let it hit them without consequence.

> * can counterattack while dodging

>

> If you're a hammer warrior, for example and you land your 25s cooldown, 1s animation Backbreaker hoping to follow up with damage, you want it to stick OR you want the opponent to have to burn a valuable stunbreak. Mirage is the only class in the game that can just dodge away on a very very very low cooldown without even having to use a skill. This is why all the dodge food, dodge sigils, dodge runes are so broken on Mirage in particular.

>

> In WvW it gets:

> * **6 extra dodges per minute** from Sigil of Energy

> * **3 extra dodges per minute** from Rune of the Adventurer

> * **6 extra dodges per minute** from Vigor and dodge food

>

> Normal: **6 dodges per minute**

> Running all the dodge boosts: **21 dodges per minute**, about **3.5x base**

>

> So you can potentially be dodging about **once every 3 seconds**.

>

> Then consider that Mirage dodges last **1s** instead of **0.75s**. That's an additional (21*0.25) **5s** of invuln per minute, stretching the advantage over a "normal" dodger to **4.375x**

>

> Then consider that Mirage has additional skills that provide Mirage cloak, the advantage is closer to **5x that of a normal player's evade**.

>

> That is pretty insane considering all the existing game-breaking benefits of Mirage's dodge compared to the normal dodge, like not even having to use it until after CC hits, or gaining reflect after every evade on basically no ICD (though, that is a core mirage trait).

 

All of this. You get it.

 

Its not the food, its how Mirage with Mirage Cloak functions. Nerfing the food will do *nothing* to this.

[apharma.3741]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> In WvW it gets:

> * **6 extra dodges per minute** from Sigil of Energy

> * **3 extra dodges per minute** from Rune of the Adventurer

> * **6 extra dodges per minute** from Vigor and dodge food

>

> Normal: **6 dodges per minute**

> Running all the dodge boosts: **21 dodges per minute**, about **3.5x base**

>

> So you can potentially be dodging about **once every 3 seconds**.

>

> Then consider that Mirage dodges last **1s** instead of **0.75s**. That's an additional (21*0.25) **5s** of invuln per minute, stretching the advantage over a "normal" dodger to **4.375x**

>

> Then consider that Mirage has additional skills that provide Mirage cloak, the advantage is closer to **5x that of a normal player's evade**.

>

> That is pretty insane considering all the existing game-breaking benefits of Mirage's dodge compared to the normal dodge, like not even having to use it until after CC hits, or gaining reflect after every evade on basically no ICD (though, that is a core mirage trait).

 

Every class can (and most do) run energy sigil, perma vigor and food. Every class can utilise adventure runes too at the same rate so complaining about them is almost a non starter.

 

You'd be better off listing the bonus dodges mirage gets/can use over core instead of complaining about what all classes can use if they can be bothered to.

 

That gets a bit tricky as you can technically get some crazy up time with meme builds but a large chunk will depend on clones and the desert distortion/auspicious anguish/signet of illusions combo.

 

You should see what other insane things other classes can do on [dodge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dodge "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dodge")

[subversiontwo.7501]

You spend all that time writing about fractions of seconds and how it accumulates over a time with no practical implication yet none of all those well-explained arguments are nearly as powerful as being able to close gaps or create gaps on a class that did not have that ability before. You used to be able to ignore them and now that isn't as easy. If you decided to fight them over time a tanky condition build was always difficult to outlast, Mirage cloak or not. The same goes for the stun breaks, the base class already has fairly ample stun break. Certainly enough to beat out that Backbreaker. It always did. It is completely fair to adress classes with issues but there is alot of these lengthy math discussions on the WvW forums lately and they do feel a bit misguided.

 

It's not that they are not powerful things, they are, but they don't necessarily change the class and is not the root issue as to why most people complain about the class. They are mere details.

[coro.3176]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"coro.3176" said:

> > In WvW it gets:

> > * **6 extra dodges per minute** from Sigil of Energy

> > * **3 extra dodges per minute** from Rune of the Adventurer

> > * **6 extra dodges per minute** from Vigor and dodge food

> >

> > Normal: **6 dodges per minute**

> > Running all the dodge boosts: **21 dodges per minute**, about **3.5x base**

> >

> > So you can potentially be dodging about **once every 3 seconds**.

> >

> > Then consider that Mirage dodges last **1s** instead of **0.75s**. That's an additional (21*0.25) **5s** of invuln per minute, stretching the advantage over a "normal" dodger to **4.375x**

> >

> > Then consider that Mirage has additional skills that provide Mirage cloak, the advantage is closer to **5x that of a normal player's evade**.

> >

> > That is pretty insane considering all the existing game-breaking benefits of Mirage's dodge compared to the normal dodge, like not even having to use it until after CC hits, or gaining reflect after every evade on basically no ICD (though, that is a core mirage trait).

>

> Every class can (and most do) run energy sigil, perma vigor and food. Every class can utilise adventure runes too at the same rate so complaining about them is almost a non starter.

> ...

> You should see what other insane things other classes can do on [dodge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dodge "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dodge")

 

Very true, but no other class, not even other mesmer specs, can do what Mirage can do with dodges. That is, undo poor play after the fact 21 times a minute.

I don't argue that Mirage gets those dodge advantages and other classes don't. I argue that Mirage breaks fundamental balance considerations of GW2 combat (dodge after being CCed, and counterattack while dodging), which is insanely powerful, and gets to do so far too often.

 

> @"subversiontwo.7501" said:

> You spend all that time writing about fractions of seconds and how it accumulates over a time with **no practical implication** yet none of all those well-explained arguments are nearly as powerful as being able to close gaps or create gaps on a class that did not have that ability before. You used to be able to ignore them and now that isn't as easy. If you decided to fight them over time a tanky condition build was always difficult to outlast, Mirage cloak or not. **The same goes for the stun breaks, the base class already has fairly ample stun break. Certainly enough to beat out that Backbreaker. It always did.** It is completely fair to adress classes with issues but there is alot of these lengthy math discussions on the WvW forums lately and they do feel a bit misguided.

 

The practical implication is this: As a Mirage, you never. ever. ever. ever have to take damage after being CC'd. You have 21+ 1-second cloaks every minute and you don't have to use them until the CC lands. Oh, and yes. You have all the original stunbreaks too, should you choose to run them. And yes, you have the mobility too (although a bit less since the Jaunt nerf). You probably have a get-out-of-jail free card nearly once every 2s if you play correctly.

 

The difference between Mirage and other classes - say, Chrono or core Mesmer, for example - is that if the Warrior lands a CC on Mirage, it doesn't have to burn any of its skills to get out of it. It can just dodge every time. Chrono + core do have good stunbreaks, but they don't have enough to undo every CC an opponent throws at them over the course of a fight. They will fall to a CC+burst combo eventually. A Mirage never will.

 

Given that many classes in the game require CC+burst setups for their damage, this is an unbeatable advantage for Mirage assuming equally skilled players.

 

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> the better mirages today dont really need to dodge on inc attack with this food, they just spam mirage cloak and abuse ambush,

 

I kinda wish my combat log was detailed to the second so I could feel more outrage, but currently I can only conclude I was downed by a mirage in under 60 seconds.

[apharma.3741]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"coro.3176" said:

> > > In WvW it gets:

> > > * **6 extra dodges per minute** from Sigil of Energy

> > > * **3 extra dodges per minute** from Rune of the Adventurer

> > > * **6 extra dodges per minute** from Vigor and dodge food

> > >

> > > Normal: **6 dodges per minute**

> > > Running all the dodge boosts: **21 dodges per minute**, about **3.5x base**

> > >

> > > So you can potentially be dodging about **once every 3 seconds**.

> > >

> > > Then consider that Mirage dodges last **1s** instead of **0.75s**. That's an additional (21*0.25) **5s** of invuln per minute, stretching the advantage over a "normal" dodger to **4.375x**

> > >

> > > Then consider that Mirage has additional skills that provide Mirage cloak, the advantage is closer to **5x that of a normal player's evade**.

> > >

> > > That is pretty insane considering all the existing game-breaking benefits of Mirage's dodge compared to the normal dodge, like not even having to use it until after CC hits, or gaining reflect after every evade on basically no ICD (though, that is a core mirage trait).

> >

> > Every class can (and most do) run energy sigil, perma vigor and food. Every class can utilise adventure runes too at the same rate so complaining about them is almost a non starter.

> > ...

> > You should see what other insane things other classes can do on [dodge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dodge "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dodge")

>

> Very true, but no other class, not even other mesmer specs, can do what Mirage can do with dodges. That is, undo poor play after the fact 21 times a minute.

> I don't argue that Mirage gets those dodge advantages and other classes don't. I argue that Mirage breaks fundamental balance considerations of GW2 combat (dodge after being CCed, and counterattack while dodging), which is insanely powerful, and gets to do so far too often.

>

 

Yes dodging while CC'd is dumb as are not punished for mistakes and failing to dodge. No argument there and it should be removed.

 

Being able to counter attack while dodging is likewise very powerful. However let's look at what other classes got in PoF and say is it stronger or weaker than say getting a free F5 with 5 extremely strong skills on hilariously low cool downs? What about getting free stats, a tone of absurdly strong interactions and buff/boon duplication and 6 new skills on F5? What about getting 15 new and very powerful skills baseline on F1-3?

 

I would argue that the jury is still out on mirage cloak itself and how it measures up to the plethora of very strong mechanics as while power mirage is strong it is not something you will see much of compared to what is around atm.

 

Now the ambush skills and the condition application, that's something worth talking about. Likewise having utility skills on 20-25s cool downs when if this was core they would be 30s or more should also be talked about, not just on mirage btw, we should be talking about this on all elite specs.

 

Edit: I read what you put about chrono and core mesmer. It's worth mentioning that there's so much CC flying around that ANet really needs to take steps to cull it down while reducing the amount of stab while they're at it. Tried core mesmer recently? Power core is dead, just about the only thing that's "decent" on core mesmer is the old PU condi roamer but even that is pretty much dead as people can largely ignore and run away within the context of roaming. That's without bringing up the cleansing sigil and antitoxin runes that would kill even that. Chrono is still moderately serviceable if you abuse lost time and F5.

 

Hmmmm there's a pattern here with F5 skills....

[X T D.6458]

Regardless of what class uses it to the most effect, this consumable is a little too strong and needs to be toned down.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"X T D.6458" said:

> Regardless of what class uses it to the most effect, this consumable is a little too strong and needs to be toned down.

 

What did some people here *just* get done trying to convey? The food is nowhere near a problem. Is it a go to for many classes? Sure, but so isn't the 10% damage reduction food, so isn't the healing power + outgoing healing food for Firebrands, so aren't the flat +100 power increase foods, so aren't the 66% lifesteal foods, and so on. Depends on build, playstyle or personal preference.

 

People want it toned down because of Mirage when the food is not the problem, Mirage is. The why reasoning for that is all detailed above. It is getting tiring seeing people try and pinpoint the exact *wrong* things as issues.

[Trittium.9104]

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> I said this before with scourge, and condi mirage (and I was right both times) and I guess I need to say it here...

>

> Once the class gets nerfed to the point ppl will finally stop complaining, ya'all know you will move to another class right? Its an observation/trend ive noticed over the months/years. You people kind of remind me of PvP'ers and their forum.

>

> Makes me seriously wonder...How much of these posts are truly l2p/complaining because its easy to as others are doing it? Ive played many classes in WvW the last couple months (as ive had urges to try others again) and ive fought some mirages (mainly condi as out of all mirages ive seen in WvW, most were condi by a vast margin) and the classes ive wiped them on were: Core engi (p/p), core guardian (GS/Sword+focus or sword+shield as ive tried both), Daredevil (D/P), and Druid (staff/LB) and I was able to beat the Mirages more often than not. I can say that none of these builds were Meta (as I dont run meta on any builds) and were done while solo/duo roaming. All of these builds however are not a "pick up and go"...Same for the DPS mirage build I run. Took me quite of while of tweaking and practicing/sparring and lots of adapting to overcome and finally win fights.

>

> Tbh I enjoy fighting them (esp condi mirage) as ya beat em enough, they leave you alone instead of the other way around. The only real issue I see is Condi Mirage. When it comes to DPS, if they are not the 1 shot variety that runs sword, then they are not OP/unbalanced. I've played DPS mirage. Condi is cheesy af if you are even slightly decent at it. Even when im not running the endurance food (while on Mirage...also non meta) I still beat people. Not all the time but I get my fair share (and no, im not running Adventure runes but Traveler runes as I hate being slow lol)

>

> With any class complaints, its becoming harder and harder to take seriously as some of the comments do come off as a l2p issue, but are QQing because its easier to do than to adapt (which lurking the forums as much as I do I see wayyyyy to much of compared to like 3-4 years ago).

>

> If anyone is in NA and wants to actually learn to fight/beat a Mirage, I can get my DPS build together and we can spar.

>

> Edit: inb4 I know I am going to get flak from a lot of ppl here. If anything, maybe it will prove some of my points. Who knows. Either way, I iz out . :)

 

I also tend to counter them pretty hard on Condi DareDevil running D/D. Just trait Lotus Training, Uncatchable, and Dagger training, Run Sigil of Agility, and keep trading between dagger 3 and dodge roll. The condi damage is too high for them to keep up with (I.E. they're forced to waste dodges to cleanse) and you're constantly evade spamming all their burst and shatters.

 

on OPs subject: Mirage has a completely overtuned kit that needs to be toned down first before nerfing food buffs. However I will agree that the food does need a nerf in it's own right (I hate saying that since I use this food for almost all my builds).