lodjur.1284 Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said: > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > Then you should already know that necro is by far the squishiest class, I am not judging you, I am just saying that your idea indicates a clear lack of knowledge about the game, which I say without judging you in the slightest for it > > > @"felincyriac.5981 " said: > > OP seems to be an ele main, all makes sense now. > > I will answer to both of you since that answer could be usefull (or maybe not) to both your messages > > it's true I've started the game playing ele ... and I have the most play time on ele ... > > But i've never played ele in sPvp competitivaly since D/D core ele ... which brings us back to 2012 or maybe 2013 . Then i've played terrormancer and core axe warrior before HOT. In the bunker meta it was tempest for few months but then I switched to revenant cause i was bored of ele being forced to be a heal bot. Enough with cele D/D ... tempest was boring. And now with POF i've played fresh air weaver till it got nerfed ... i'm playing again on revenant and core guard mostly now :) > > so you can say whatever you want ... it's not like the fact I was an ele main would mean anything ... just that guard - ele - thief was forced (in sPVP) to take vitality amulet while other classes like necromancer could take full glass amulet while still being effective ... i've tried deadshot scourge as an example ... it was so easy ... not even 100 games. > > the only class i didn't play is mesmer . First cause its design is very boring (as a core class) imo and than chrono and mirage were sooooo mandatory (not in the same gamemodes ofc or at the same time) that was just a pride to not play that cheesy class. pretty much the same with druid in ruids and now soulbeast. > > This is my "lack of knowledge" as you may know . Zerker Weaver (fa scepter) is tanker than zerker necro. Neither is really awesome for sPvP tho. The only class that actually runs full glass amulet with any frequency is warrior. Even so what does it matter what amulet you "can" run there's nothing inherently awesome about any amulet, there's only how strong a build is in total. Try running full glass necro in Plat 3 or above and tell me how it went. Deadshot amulet gives vitality. There's a reason necro is always the first target in any fight and it isn't due to their amazing tankiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nath Forge Tempete.1645 Posted January 27, 2019 Author Share Posted January 27, 2019 > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said: > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > Then you should already know that necro is by far the squishiest class, I am not judging you, I am just saying that your idea indicates a clear lack of knowledge about the game, which I say without judging you in the slightest for it > > > > > @"felincyriac.5981 " said: > > > OP seems to be an ele main, all makes sense now. > > > > I will answer to both of you since that answer could be usefull (or maybe not) to both your messages > > > > it's true I've started the game playing ele ... and I have the most play time on ele ... > > > > But i've never played ele in sPvp competitivaly since D/D core ele ... which brings us back to 2012 or maybe 2013 . Then i've played terrormancer and core axe warrior before HOT. In the bunker meta it was tempest for few months but then I switched to revenant cause i was bored of ele being forced to be a heal bot. Enough with cele D/D ... tempest was boring. And now with POF i've played fresh air weaver till it got nerfed ... i'm playing again on revenant and core guard mostly now :) > > > > so you can say whatever you want ... it's not like the fact I was an ele main would mean anything ... just that guard - ele - thief was forced (in sPVP) to take vitality amulet while other classes like necromancer could take full glass amulet while still being effective ... i've tried deadshot scourge as an example ... it was so easy ... not even 100 games. > > > > the only class i didn't play is mesmer . First cause its design is very boring (as a core class) imo and than chrono and mirage were sooooo mandatory (not in the same gamemodes ofc or at the same time) that was just a pride to not play that cheesy class. pretty much the same with druid in ruids and now soulbeast. > > > > This is my "lack of knowledge" as you may know . > > Zerker Weaver (fa scepter) is tanker than zerker necro. Neither is really awesome for sPvP tho. > > The only class that actually runs full glass amulet with any frequency is warrior. Even so what does it matter what amulet you "can" run there's nothing inherently awesome about any amulet, there's only how strong a build is in total. > > Try running full glass necro in Plat 3 or above and tell me how it went. > > Deadshot amulet gives vitality. > > There's a reason necro is always the first target in any fight and it isn't due to their amazing tankiness. so you picked that one build that can validate your sayings LUL and no it wasn't zerker :) but marauder cause i needed the vitality but whatever there's no point on talking with you . You seems not to understand what is my point and you focusing on the wrong thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrHome.1920 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 Since marauder is the to go power damage gear for all specs in pvp, which brings HP pools closer together in terms of percentage (11 vs. 19 = +73%, 17 vs. 25 = +47%) I don't see any reason to mess up the system. Thief with all its mobility and evades and guard with all its blocks and heals both feel comfortable at 17k HP. Try playing reaper on full berserk with 13k shroud. That's extremely glassy! The only class that can get away with full zerk gear ist double endure pain warrior. Conclusion: ANet should not waste balancing ressouces on this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lodjur.1284 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said: > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said: > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > Then you should already know that necro is by far the squishiest class, I am not judging you, I am just saying that your idea indicates a clear lack of knowledge about the game, which I say without judging you in the slightest for it > > > > > > > @"felincyriac.5981 " said: > > > > OP seems to be an ele main, all makes sense now. > > > > > > I will answer to both of you since that answer could be usefull (or maybe not) to both your messages > > > > > > it's true I've started the game playing ele ... and I have the most play time on ele ... > > > > > > But i've never played ele in sPvp competitivaly since D/D core ele ... which brings us back to 2012 or maybe 2013 . Then i've played terrormancer and core axe warrior before HOT. In the bunker meta it was tempest for few months but then I switched to revenant cause i was bored of ele being forced to be a heal bot. Enough with cele D/D ... tempest was boring. And now with POF i've played fresh air weaver till it got nerfed ... i'm playing again on revenant and core guard mostly now :) > > > > > > so you can say whatever you want ... it's not like the fact I was an ele main would mean anything ... just that guard - ele - thief was forced (in sPVP) to take vitality amulet while other classes like necromancer could take full glass amulet while still being effective ... i've tried deadshot scourge as an example ... it was so easy ... not even 100 games. > > > > > > the only class i didn't play is mesmer . First cause its design is very boring (as a core class) imo and than chrono and mirage were sooooo mandatory (not in the same gamemodes ofc or at the same time) that was just a pride to not play that cheesy class. pretty much the same with druid in ruids and now soulbeast. > > > > > > This is my "lack of knowledge" as you may know . > > > > Zerker Weaver (fa scepter) is tanker than zerker necro. Neither is really awesome for sPvP tho. > > > > The only class that actually runs full glass amulet with any frequency is warrior. Even so what does it matter what amulet you "can" run there's nothing inherently awesome about any amulet, there's only how strong a build is in total. > > > > Try running full glass necro in Plat 3 or above and tell me how it went. > > > > Deadshot amulet gives vitality. > > > > There's a reason necro is always the first target in any fight and it isn't due to their amazing tankiness. > > so you picked that one build that can validate your sayings LUL and no it wasn't zerker :) but marauder cause i needed the vitality but whatever there's no point on talking with you . You seems not to understand what is my point and you focusing on the wrong thing. Nope I picked an 11k hp class that can realistically run full glass and that you said you had played. But I can think of another build that works better in zerker than necro that has 11k base health, thief. Marauder might be more optimal on either for sPvP but both sure work a lot better than zerker necro. I do understand your point, you hate necro for some reason and badly want some buffs to whatever you play (which is probably thief), it isn't very hard to understand really. Tell me then what should I be focusing on? Because so far I focused on the implications of your suggestion and how most of what you've said is factually incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuulpb.5412 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > > Elementalist is the only class that does not have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. Increasing the HP of any other class wouldn't make sense with all the defenses that they can pack into damage oriented builds. However, the elementalist survivability problem exists because of how poorly thought out and outdated its mechanics and traits are. Initially elementalist was one of the best professions in terms of self boon generation to compensate for its innate squishiness. Now its one of the worst because of rampant power creep. If you increase the health, you will barely make the damage builds stronger in competitive modes. The only thing that you will do is make bunker weaver even more obnoxious. The class needs a rework instead of simply changing HP pools. > > > > I would argue the fact it has 2 invulnerabilities, and one invuln on its weapon, is survivability. > > You would argue that, but you are not touching on my argument at all. I said that is doesn't have *enough* innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. A better case for elementalist survivability is made here. > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > > > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > > > Elementalist is the only class that does not have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. Increasing the HP of any other class wouldn't make sense with all the defenses that they can pack into damage oriented builds. However, the elementalist survivability problem exists because of how poorly thought out and outdated its mechanics and traits are. Initially elementalist was one of the best professions in terms of self boon generation to compensate for its innate squishiness. Now its one of the worst because of rampant power creep. If you increase the health, you will barely make the damage builds stronger in competitive modes. The only thing that you will do is make bunker weaver even more obnoxious. The class needs a rework instead of simply changing HP pools. > > > > > > I would argue the fact it has 2 invulnerabilities, and one invuln on its weapon, is survivability. > > > > I would even say that elementalist used to mainly rely on arcane shield/final shielding, mist form and lightning flash for their survivability instead of boons. > > > > Nowaday, a single build can stack conjure shield/fortify (3s invuln every 30s), mist form (3s invuln every 60/48s), obsidian flesh (3s invuln every 50/40s) and 3 block from arcane shield (on a 40/32s CD). The same build can potentially also have access to 2 evade skills, 2 skills granting barrier, a 6s projectile destroying aoe or even a trait preventing you from taking critical strikes. > > > > In regard of power damage mitigation there is objectively none as strong as the elementalist. The only real weakness appear when facing condition damages against which the elementalist objectively suck. > > It's true that you can go on and stack lots of defenses as an elementalist, but the whole point is that elementalist is an unbalanceable mess because of it. You can stack lots of defenses and hit like a wet noodle, or you can try going for a damage build that is the laughing stock of damage builds as far as survivability goes. There is no good middle ground to be found because elementalist class design is very flawed. This is what I mean by low inherent survivability. Unless you go out of your way to invest almost everything into suvivability, you will be ineffective. > > Other classes do not have to bother investing their entire build into survivability, because it can be really good with minimal investment compared to ele. You do mention conditions here, but they are likely the main reason why ele **needs** to go full bunker. The devs thought that it was a genius idea to tie all condi cleanse to water and elementalist will never see a competitive damage build until something radical is done. > > I fear that instead of actually reworking the class, they will put a band-aid in the form of an elite spec, just like they did with engineer. A spec with an OP F5 form that carries a bad profession in competitive modes. But the Invulnerability IS innate, it's part of their weapon mechanics and attunements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nath Forge Tempete.1645 Posted January 27, 2019 Author Share Posted January 27, 2019 > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said: > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said: > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > Then you should already know that necro is by far the squishiest class, I am not judging you, I am just saying that your idea indicates a clear lack of knowledge about the game, which I say without judging you in the slightest for it > > > > > > > > > @"felincyriac.5981 " said: > > > > > OP seems to be an ele main, all makes sense now. > > > > > > > > I will answer to both of you since that answer could be usefull (or maybe not) to both your messages > > > > > > > > it's true I've started the game playing ele ... and I have the most play time on ele ... > > > > > > > > But i've never played ele in sPvp competitivaly since D/D core ele ... which brings us back to 2012 or maybe 2013 . Then i've played terrormancer and core axe warrior before HOT. In the bunker meta it was tempest for few months but then I switched to revenant cause i was bored of ele being forced to be a heal bot. Enough with cele D/D ... tempest was boring. And now with POF i've played fresh air weaver till it got nerfed ... i'm playing again on revenant and core guard mostly now :) > > > > > > > > so you can say whatever you want ... it's not like the fact I was an ele main would mean anything ... just that guard - ele - thief was forced (in sPVP) to take vitality amulet while other classes like necromancer could take full glass amulet while still being effective ... i've tried deadshot scourge as an example ... it was so easy ... not even 100 games. > > > > > > > > the only class i didn't play is mesmer . First cause its design is very boring (as a core class) imo and than chrono and mirage were sooooo mandatory (not in the same gamemodes ofc or at the same time) that was just a pride to not play that cheesy class. pretty much the same with druid in ruids and now soulbeast. > > > > > > > > This is my "lack of knowledge" as you may know . > > > > > > Zerker Weaver (fa scepter) is tanker than zerker necro. Neither is really awesome for sPvP tho. > > > > > > The only class that actually runs full glass amulet with any frequency is warrior. Even so what does it matter what amulet you "can" run there's nothing inherently awesome about any amulet, there's only how strong a build is in total. > > > > > > Try running full glass necro in Plat 3 or above and tell me how it went. > > > > > > Deadshot amulet gives vitality. > > > > > > There's a reason necro is always the first target in any fight and it isn't due to their amazing tankiness. > > > > so you picked that one build that can validate your sayings LUL and no it wasn't zerker :) but marauder cause i needed the vitality but whatever there's no point on talking with you . You seems not to understand what is my point and you focusing on the wrong thing. > > Nope I picked an 11k hp class that can realistically run full glass and that you said you had played. But I can think of another build that works better in zerker than necro that has 11k base health, thief. Marauder might be more optimal on either for sPvP but both sure work a lot better than zerker necro. > > I do understand your point, you hate necro for some reason and badly want some buffs to whatever you play (which is probably thief), it isn't very hard to understand really. > > Tell me then what should I be focusing on? Because so far I focused on the implications of your suggestion and how most of what you've said is factually incorrect. well ... i don't have problems with you ( i think) but you don't even read what I wrote if you "think" i play thief since i already told you what was my history on GW2 for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lodjur.1284 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said: > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said: > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said: > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > Then you should already know that necro is by far the squishiest class, I am not judging you, I am just saying that your idea indicates a clear lack of knowledge about the game, which I say without judging you in the slightest for it > > > > > > > > > > > @"felincyriac.5981 " said: > > > > > > OP seems to be an ele main, all makes sense now. > > > > > > > > > > I will answer to both of you since that answer could be usefull (or maybe not) to both your messages > > > > > > > > > > it's true I've started the game playing ele ... and I have the most play time on ele ... > > > > > > > > > > But i've never played ele in sPvp competitivaly since D/D core ele ... which brings us back to 2012 or maybe 2013 . Then i've played terrormancer and core axe warrior before HOT. In the bunker meta it was tempest for few months but then I switched to revenant cause i was bored of ele being forced to be a heal bot. Enough with cele D/D ... tempest was boring. And now with POF i've played fresh air weaver till it got nerfed ... i'm playing again on revenant and core guard mostly now :) > > > > > > > > > > so you can say whatever you want ... it's not like the fact I was an ele main would mean anything ... just that guard - ele - thief was forced (in sPVP) to take vitality amulet while other classes like necromancer could take full glass amulet while still being effective ... i've tried deadshot scourge as an example ... it was so easy ... not even 100 games. > > > > > > > > > > the only class i didn't play is mesmer . First cause its design is very boring (as a core class) imo and than chrono and mirage were sooooo mandatory (not in the same gamemodes ofc or at the same time) that was just a pride to not play that cheesy class. pretty much the same with druid in ruids and now soulbeast. > > > > > > > > > > This is my "lack of knowledge" as you may know . > > > > > > > > Zerker Weaver (fa scepter) is tanker than zerker necro. Neither is really awesome for sPvP tho. > > > > > > > > The only class that actually runs full glass amulet with any frequency is warrior. Even so what does it matter what amulet you "can" run there's nothing inherently awesome about any amulet, there's only how strong a build is in total. > > > > > > > > Try running full glass necro in Plat 3 or above and tell me how it went. > > > > > > > > Deadshot amulet gives vitality. > > > > > > > > There's a reason necro is always the first target in any fight and it isn't due to their amazing tankiness. > > > > > > so you picked that one build that can validate your sayings LUL and no it wasn't zerker :) but marauder cause i needed the vitality but whatever there's no point on talking with you . You seems not to understand what is my point and you focusing on the wrong thing. > > > > Nope I picked an 11k hp class that can realistically run full glass and that you said you had played. But I can think of another build that works better in zerker than necro that has 11k base health, thief. Marauder might be more optimal on either for sPvP but both sure work a lot better than zerker necro. > > > > I do understand your point, you hate necro for some reason and badly want some buffs to whatever you play (which is probably thief), it isn't very hard to understand really. > > > > Tell me then what should I be focusing on? Because so far I focused on the implications of your suggestion and how most of what you've said is factually incorrect. > > well ... i don't have problems with you ( i think) but you don't even read what I wrote if you "think" i play thief since i already told you what was my history on GW2 for now. I read it, everything else you're saying just doesn't support it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > > > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > > > Elementalist is the only class that does not have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. Increasing the HP of any other class wouldn't make sense with all the defenses that they can pack into damage oriented builds. However, the elementalist survivability problem exists because of how poorly thought out and outdated its mechanics and traits are. Initially elementalist was one of the best professions in terms of self boon generation to compensate for its innate squishiness. Now its one of the worst because of rampant power creep. If you increase the health, you will barely make the damage builds stronger in competitive modes. The only thing that you will do is make bunker weaver even more obnoxious. The class needs a rework instead of simply changing HP pools. > > > > > > I would argue the fact it has 2 invulnerabilities, and one invuln on its weapon, is survivability. > > > > You would argue that, but you are not touching on my argument at all. I said that is doesn't have *enough* innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. A better case for elementalist survivability is made here. > > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > > > > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > > > > Elementalist is the only class that does not have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. Increasing the HP of any other class wouldn't make sense with all the defenses that they can pack into damage oriented builds. However, the elementalist survivability problem exists because of how poorly thought out and outdated its mechanics and traits are. Initially elementalist was one of the best professions in terms of self boon generation to compensate for its innate squishiness. Now its one of the worst because of rampant power creep. If you increase the health, you will barely make the damage builds stronger in competitive modes. The only thing that you will do is make bunker weaver even more obnoxious. The class needs a rework instead of simply changing HP pools. > > > > > > > > I would argue the fact it has 2 invulnerabilities, and one invuln on its weapon, is survivability. > > > > > > I would even say that elementalist used to mainly rely on arcane shield/final shielding, mist form and lightning flash for their survivability instead of boons. > > > > > > Nowaday, a single build can stack conjure shield/fortify (3s invuln every 30s), mist form (3s invuln every 60/48s), obsidian flesh (3s invuln every 50/40s) and 3 block from arcane shield (on a 40/32s CD). The same build can potentially also have access to 2 evade skills, 2 skills granting barrier, a 6s projectile destroying aoe or even a trait preventing you from taking critical strikes. > > > > > > In regard of power damage mitigation there is objectively none as strong as the elementalist. The only real weakness appear when facing condition damages against which the elementalist objectively suck. > > > > It's true that you can go on and stack lots of defenses as an elementalist, but the whole point is that elementalist is an unbalanceable mess because of it. You can stack lots of defenses and hit like a wet noodle, or you can try going for a damage build that is the laughing stock of damage builds as far as survivability goes. There is no good middle ground to be found because elementalist class design is very flawed. This is what I mean by low inherent survivability. Unless you go out of your way to invest almost everything into suvivability, you will be ineffective. > > > > Other classes do not have to bother investing their entire build into survivability, because it can be really good with minimal investment compared to ele. You do mention conditions here, but they are likely the main reason why ele **needs** to go full bunker. The devs thought that it was a genius idea to tie all condi cleanse to water and elementalist will never see a competitive damage build until something radical is done. > > > > I fear that instead of actually reworking the class, they will put a band-aid in the form of an elite spec, just like they did with engineer. A spec with an OP F5 form that carries a bad profession in competitive modes. > > But the Invulnerability IS innate, it's part of their weapon mechanics and attunements. You mean like mez invulnerability spam? Or maybe the block spam or maybe the take 0 dmg spam? See the problem hp balancing IS MEANINGLESS when it comes to what def skill a class have its simply a hold over for the classes when they did not have all these active def skills from 2012. Its an out dated system and it is causing massive problems with current balancing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganathar.4956 Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > > > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > > > Elementalist is the only class that does not have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. Increasing the HP of any other class wouldn't make sense with all the defenses that they can pack into damage oriented builds. However, the elementalist survivability problem exists because of how poorly thought out and outdated its mechanics and traits are. Initially elementalist was one of the best professions in terms of self boon generation to compensate for its innate squishiness. Now its one of the worst because of rampant power creep. If you increase the health, you will barely make the damage builds stronger in competitive modes. The only thing that you will do is make bunker weaver even more obnoxious. The class needs a rework instead of simply changing HP pools. > > > > > > I would argue the fact it has 2 invulnerabilities, and one invuln on its weapon, is survivability. > > > > You would argue that, but you are not touching on my argument at all. I said that is doesn't have *enough* innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. A better case for elementalist survivability is made here. > > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > @"Kuulpb.5412" said: > > > > > @"Ganathar.4956" said: > > > > > Elementalist is the only class that does not have enough innate survivability mechanics to compensate for its low HP. Increasing the HP of any other class wouldn't make sense with all the defenses that they can pack into damage oriented builds. However, the elementalist survivability problem exists because of how poorly thought out and outdated its mechanics and traits are. Initially elementalist was one of the best professions in terms of self boon generation to compensate for its innate squishiness. Now its one of the worst because of rampant power creep. If you increase the health, you will barely make the damage builds stronger in competitive modes. The only thing that you will do is make bunker weaver even more obnoxious. The class needs a rework instead of simply changing HP pools. > > > > > > > > I would argue the fact it has 2 invulnerabilities, and one invuln on its weapon, is survivability. > > > > > > I would even say that elementalist used to mainly rely on arcane shield/final shielding, mist form and lightning flash for their survivability instead of boons. > > > > > > Nowaday, a single build can stack conjure shield/fortify (3s invuln every 30s), mist form (3s invuln every 60/48s), obsidian flesh (3s invuln every 50/40s) and 3 block from arcane shield (on a 40/32s CD). The same build can potentially also have access to 2 evade skills, 2 skills granting barrier, a 6s projectile destroying aoe or even a trait preventing you from taking critical strikes. > > > > > > In regard of power damage mitigation there is objectively none as strong as the elementalist. The only real weakness appear when facing condition damages against which the elementalist objectively suck. > > > > It's true that you can go on and stack lots of defenses as an elementalist, but the whole point is that elementalist is an unbalanceable mess because of it. You can stack lots of defenses and hit like a wet noodle, or you can try going for a damage build that is the laughing stock of damage builds as far as survivability goes. There is no good middle ground to be found because elementalist class design is very flawed. This is what I mean by low inherent survivability. Unless you go out of your way to invest almost everything into suvivability, you will be ineffective. > > > > Other classes do not have to bother investing their entire build into survivability, because it can be really good with minimal investment compared to ele. You do mention conditions here, but they are likely the main reason why ele **needs** to go full bunker. The devs thought that it was a genius idea to tie all condi cleanse to water and elementalist will never see a competitive damage build until something radical is done. > > > > I fear that instead of actually reworking the class, they will put a band-aid in the form of an elite spec, just like they did with engineer. A spec with an OP F5 form that carries a bad profession in competitive modes. > > But the Invulnerability IS innate, it's part of their weapon mechanics and attunements. I emphasized the word "enough" and the point still keeps going over your head. There is a reason why damage focused builds on ele melt far quicker than on any other profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auburner.6945 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I would say it's fine even for ele, the 2/3k hp won't change anything. The increase or decrease in HPs to reduce the HP's gap won't solve the issue for the squishy classes or tanky classes, because if the class is squishy that means the core mechanics of the class are absurd and should be looked forward to change/improve it, give me more HP as ele and I won't utilize that in anything while it will feel good to have that but I have no passives to make use of the HP... give me bocks/stealth/boonrip/cleanse/etc. and I would make use of them to their fullest. Ele doesn't have the tools to tank, their passives are not for tanking, increasing their HP would do nothing without passives proc'ing here and there. Why would an 11k hp FB survive tons of siege/attacks while Ele (even support) can't, they've got the tools for surviving to counter their low hp which a class of the same HP hasn't. Allow ele to play with their enemies (boon control, cc, etc.) as their enemies do, and to prevent damage in other ways than dodging or increasing HP (blocks, counterattack if that's a thing, like a parry) and to have boons without the damned Arcane line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nath Forge Tempete.1645 Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Auburner.6945" said: > I would say it's fine even for ele, the 2/3k hp won't change anything. The increase or decrease in HPs to reduce the HP's gap won't solve the issue for the squishy classes or tanky classes, because if the class is squishy that means the core mechanics of the class are absurd and should be looked forward to change/improve it, give me more HP as ele and I won't utilize that in anything while it will feel good to have that but I have no passives to make use of the HP... give me bocks/stealth/boonrip/cleanse/etc. and I would make use of them to their fullest. Ele doesn't have the tools to tank, their passives are not for tanking, increasing their HP would do nothing without passives proc'ing here and there. Why would an 11k hp FB survive tons of siege/attacks while Ele (even support) can't, they've got the tools for surviving to counter their low hp which a class of the same HP hasn't. Allow ele to play with their enemies (boon control, cc, etc.) as their enemies do, and to prevent damage in other ways than dodging or increasing HP (blocks, counterattack if that's a thing, like a parry) and to have boons without the damned Arcane line. Don't get me wrong ! I agree with you there :D but basically i was saying making so much difference between classes is pointless in the current state of the game. I'm not trying to say ele is unbalanced or something like that. Just that pool HP tier are (imo) an outdated design of the core game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I agree it's outdated. Guardian's Aegis and passive healing in core might have meant they had more defenses than say core Engineer or Mesmer, but compare that to Holosmith or Mirage today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auburner.6945 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said: > > @"Auburner.6945" said: > > I would say it's fine even for ele, the 2/3k hp won't change anything. The increase or decrease in HPs to reduce the HP's gap won't solve the issue for the squishy classes or tanky classes, because if the class is squishy that means the core mechanics of the class are absurd and should be looked forward to change/improve it, give me more HP as ele and I won't utilize that in anything while it will feel good to have that but I have no passives to make use of the HP... give me bocks/stealth/boonrip/cleanse/etc. and I would make use of them to their fullest. Ele doesn't have the tools to tank, their passives are not for tanking, increasing their HP would do nothing without passives proc'ing here and there. Why would an 11k hp FB survive tons of siege/attacks while Ele (even support) can't, they've got the tools for surviving to counter their low hp which a class of the same HP hasn't. Allow ele to play with their enemies (boon control, cc, etc.) as their enemies do, and to prevent damage in other ways than dodging or increasing HP (blocks, counterattack if that's a thing, like a parry) and to have boons without the damned Arcane line. > > Don't get me wrong ! I agree with you there :D but basically i was saying making so much difference between classes is pointless in the current state of the game. I'm not trying to say ele is unbalanced or something like that. > > Just that pool HP tier are (imo) an outdated design of the core game. I agree to a point. The solution might be giving each class its own stats, so the buffs and nerfs can also hit their stats, not utilities and traits only, because if core stats are almost equal (except health and toughness) then any buff to other roles than DPS would make them almost a DPS when the multipliers almost match to that of an already DPS. **I would say it's outdated** as the concept of Tank/Support/etc. is no longer a thing (in most games tbh), a Support can support now by taking down or cc-chain someone before they reach the damage dealer, it's no longer healing/buffs only that define a support. Some classes/specs can't find themselves a place because of the new tools other HoT/PoF specs got and the already built-in stuff on them that never existed on the underperforming classes/specs, and how ill-designed a feature in them appears to be in the current state of the game making them unable to counter the fact that they're T1/T2 on the HPs lists. For an ele main, given that each class **having its own stats is unlikely to happen**, I would stick to that the HP tiers of now are fine on most classes. I don't want HP more than I want blocks/boon control/cc/boon up-time/etc. I would have some add-ons to the classes/specs that under-perform or nerf the strong ones to the ground and find out where they are lacking to balance things out through buffs. I agree with you. There is nothing such as tanks/supports/etc. no more. Everything has become a fiesta, anyone can be anything. DPS used to be the pivoting point in anything which caused issues for other roles. Other roles have tools that enable DPS to unleash their damage, now that other roles can deal almost the same damage, the concept of tanks/supports/etc. is nothing but a cover to what the games have evolved into and the DPS/support/tanks that couldn't adapt are the most to suffer, they have their own low/incompetent league of non-meta till they'r either strong like crazy or till they are reworked. In the end, if each class can't have its own stats, then give the under-performing the same tools other than stats and that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skotlex.7580 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 I think it would be enough if the Weaver sword related trait would add 200 vitality if wielding a sword. elementalist just wasn't designed to be a melee class, and even tempest skills have enough range that kiting is possible (and often necessary) to survive. To give them a melee range weapon is just placing them in too much danger. Also, I'll agree with the post above that 2k life is quite a lot for the lower pool of classes. On my guardian going from 12k to 14k was already enough to save me from many one shots that I face in open world. My elementalist has 15k life and still dies quite a bit when pressured, though an earth shield totally allows me to survive most onslaughts, so those extra 200 vit/toughness make a remarkable difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aplethoraof.2643 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 1) It is a leap because you are looking at the first and last data points. You aren't looking at the middle, which makes it incremental instead of a leap. 1 to 3 is a leap if you pretend 2 doesn't exist. You count 1, 2, 3 not 1, 3. 2) You need to remember that certain classes (like Necro) were built with their high HP pool in mind. So you'll need to consider all the ways they need to be adjusted in order to compensate. Any ideas on that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Skotlex.7580" said: > I think it would be enough if the Weaver sword related trait would add 200 vitality if wielding a sword. elementalist just wasn't designed to be a melee class, and even tempest skills have enough range that kiting is possible (and often necessary) to survive. > > To give them a melee range weapon is just placing them in too much danger. > > Also, I'll agree with the post above that 2k life is quite a lot for the lower pool of classes. On my guardian going from 12k to 14k was already enough to save me from many one shots that I face in open world. My elementalist has 15k life and still dies quite a bit when pressured, though an earth shield totally allows me to survive most onslaughts, so those extra 200 vit/toughness make a remarkable difference. that doesn't help Dagger, Sceptre, Staff, warhorn > @"Skotlex.7580" said: > I think it would be enough if the Weaver sword related trait would add 200 vitality if wielding a sword. elementalist just wasn't designed to be a melee class, and even tempest skills have enough range that kiting is possible (and often necessary) to survive. > > To give them a melee range weapon is just placing them in too much danger. > > Also, I'll agree with the post above that 2k life is quite a lot for the lower pool of classes. On my guardian going from 12k to 14k was already enough to save me from many one shots that I face in open world. My elementalist has 15k life and still dies quite a bit when pressured, though an earth shield totally allows me to survive most onslaughts, so those extra 200 vit/toughness make a remarkable difference. Is it enough? At the moment you need to pump 1k into healing?! (mender) and glue yourself to arcane and water to simply survive in pvp for the boons and condy removal/sustain just to survive in pvp, and that's STILL not competitive, AND only 1 solitary build. Dagger, staff, warhorn, focus, sceptre further worsens the position. I think 4k HP and 200 toughness would free the shackles from the profession and allow stat/build diversification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skotlex.7580 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > that doesn't help Dagger, Sceptre, Staff, warhorn All other weapons have range, thus they don't need the same kind of buff to HP. > I think 4k HP and 200 toughness would free the shackles from the profession and allow stat/build diversification. This is too much. Will never see this kind of boost from traits. If elementalist survival is this bad, my guess is that ANet will attempt to boost some other utilities, not just raw stats (look at how tanky a mesmer can be without investing in toughness or vitality). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nath Forge Tempete.1645 Posted February 8, 2019 Author Share Posted February 8, 2019 @Skotlex.7580 @vesica tempestas.1563 this is not an ele thread you guys :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge.8724 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said: > > @"Revolution.5409" said: > > The classes have skills to survive with their respective hp, if this would happen: guardian will have less blocks / bursts, elementalist less support from healing and damage, thief will have less invisibility or less evasion and I do not think anet is going to rework classes that already work well. > > it was the case in 2k12 ... if we follow your logic... what to do with mirages ? with soulbeast? with warrior that has block - evades - stability - endure pain - great regen on F1 - full counter ? With scourge barrier - rez ability - boon corrupt spam? > > those are not low tier HP. You seems to have some problems against warriors (specifically spellbreakers), but this class has been nerfed to the ground and is now the easiest class to kill in any pvp scenario. About HP, It's more a problem of spec than hp. Specifically core elementalist. Thief requires a lot of skills to play properly but I suggest to maybe redefine its role? As for guard, I think their HP is ok as it is right now, especially with Force of Will in honor and just the fact that they have plenty of tools to survive. The problem might simply be to change some things in core ele to make it a little bit more durable. But please, my full counter is just an evade with a little tickle in it. Stability is just 1 second and there is no block. Oh, I don't use stances XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Hp’s seem fine just think some low hp classes should get ways to sustain in fight longer thru other means. Thief for example have 3 secs instead of 4 on daggerstorm, buff bandits defence from 1 1/4 sec to 2 or 3 sec and lower fast reflexes ICD. Than classes with higher hp’s shave their active defences by a small margin exempt is necro because shroud is its only sustain and lacks block/invulnerability and mobility lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nath Forge Tempete.1645 Posted February 8, 2019 Author Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"Edge.8724" said: > > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said: > > > @"Revolution.5409" said: > > > The classes have skills to survive with their respective hp, if this would happen: guardian will have less blocks / bursts, elementalist less support from healing and damage, thief will have less invisibility or less evasion and I do not think anet is going to rework classes that already work well. > > > > it was the case in 2k12 ... if we follow your logic... what to do with mirages ? with soulbeast? with warrior that has block - evades - stability - endure pain - great regen on F1 - full counter ? With scourge barrier - rez ability - boon corrupt spam? > > > > those are not low tier HP. > > You seems to have some problems against warriors (specifically spellbreakers), but this class has been nerfed to the ground and is now the easiest class to kill in any pvp scenario. About HP, It's more a problem of spec than hp. Specifically core elementalist. Thief requires a lot of skills to play properly but I suggest to maybe redefine its role? As for guard, I think their HP is ok as it is right now, especially with Force of Will in honor and just the fact that they have plenty of tools to survive. The problem might simply be to change some things in core ele to make it a little bit more durable. > > But please, my full counter is just an evade with a little tickle in it. Stability is just 1 second and there is no block. Oh, I don't use stances XD and you seem to play warrior :D no i don't have issues with warrior especially ... except rampage . The important thing was to get my point that the hp pools are outdated and not being triggered by the one thing someone could have said about a specific class ... It was to illustrate the fact that HP pools are irrelevant now in opposition of the number of dmg mitigation - heals the class has. ANd it's sad cause you seem to go through my way of thinking so ... you should try not being triggered that easily. could be more constructive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcaedus.7290 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"Aplethoraof.2643" said: > 1) It is a leap because you are looking at the first and last data points. You aren't looking at the middle, which makes it incremental instead of a leap. 1 to 3 is a leap if you pretend 2 doesn't exist. You count 1, 2, 3 not 1, 3. > > 2) You need to remember that certain classes (like Necro) were built with their high HP pool in mind. So you'll need to consider all the ways they need to be adjusted in order to compensate. Any ideas on that? On your point #2: That's the whole purpose of this post. SURE, hp pools were balanced around vanilla GW2. I remember that in the beta they actually tested guardian with medium or high health pool (I forget which) and it ended up being overpowered which is why it got placed into the low health pool. However, ever since the trait revamp of 2015 and HoT, this game has been power-creeped to all hell. Arguably what needs to happen is that EVERYTHING across the board should be nerfed in terms of both damage and sustain but a massive overhaul like this just doesn't seem likely to happen any time soon. A good bandaid for this issue at the moment would be some small equalizing buffs or changes to the health pools. If you look at the difference when going from low --> mid --> high health pools, you'll notice the gap between low and mid is 4.3k while the gap between mid and high is 3.3k. I'd argue just adding 1k hp to the low health pool would be a good balancing decision for now. It would not overtune any of the low hp pool classes but it would open up more builds to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 The issues have nothing to do with health. Armor and stat powercreep since HoT via marauder and so on has also closed the gap dramatically. You used to really need to make hard decisions about what you used for gear, and the professions were also balanced around those choices with relative health. Everyone just stacks four-stat armor now since it literally just has more stats on it. A thief for example wanting high crit chance would used to need to have 11k hp which carried a substantial risk of dying immediately. Now it runs 16-17k with no major loss in damage. The relative gap in health pools has been reduced as a consequence. Also the game's powercreep and hilariously atrocious imbalance won't be answered by changing health pool tiers. People are still going to one-shot each other left and right or tank for an eternity because honestly, very few professions/builds can be proper tanks anymore; the game is mostly decided by who spams more invulnerability effects while maintaining stupid amounts of damage, and then one-shots the other person when everyone's invulns are on cooldown. If people want balance, massive nerfs need to happen to most of the new specs, many of the coefficient buffs need to be undone, concentration made a logarithmic stat or downright removed from the game as a whole (it literally cannot be balanced/boons cannot be balanced otherwise) and quad-stat armor needs to be downright nerfed because it's always the most efficient option to take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > Reducing the gap between health pool would only allow a few people to realize it wouldn't change anything in a positive way. Elementalists would still complain that they they have the least amount of health and the weakest armor, while on the opposite spectrum, the necromancer would take another hit to it's sustain. > > Each professions have defensive tools balanced around their health pool, some choose to not use those tools while other do or are forced to use them. modifying the health pool would be followed by a train of survivability nerf/buff that would just create confusion for most of the players. This would especially hurt the elementalist's mind to see some of their defensive/sustain tools nerfed when the warrior or necromancer see it's own buffed. I know this post is a bit old. The idea that classes are balanced around their HP pools may have been true in 2012. It absolutely is not today. And to be clear, I do not think only low HP classes need more HP, all classes do. Remember that damage has gone through 3 major waves of power creep. Adding more HP will hedge a bit the power creep on damage. As for HP pools gap it needs to be reduced. I think what would be reasonable in the game’s current state: Low hp 18.5k Medium 20k Large 21.5k This makes all stats combinations in PvP and PvE useable by all classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 I hope they change the base health just so everyone who wanted more health without losing anything else can complain about how the accompanying changes to active and passive defence are unfair. It's not going to happened due to how much work it is going to be but you should be careful what you wish for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now