Are the Ranged classes to powerful ? -Main Rang

[sinsrock.1702]

Hey guys im a Main Ranger and have been for a while but I can say 1 thing I try to switch to another class and then EVERY group I run into happens to have 1 sic em sniper and then my entire potential fight is turned into a Longbow 2 death ORRRRRRRRRRRR a Dead eye will snipe me from range for like 15k

 

my question is WHYYY D:

 

if we could potentially regulate ranged classes a bit how could this be done ?

Ranger is supposed to be a class that outsmarts people and is nimble and kites a whole bunch, while playing Defensive and offensive at the same time but ranger just doesn't really get punished it seems because of things like epic condi cleanse - there Heal, quickening Zeph, Lightning Reflex, insane boon uptime, Beast mode- for MORE dmg or sustain Ranger seems to be a low risk high reward class and don't even get me started on Dead eye XD

 

But I am just curious What is everyone elses opinions on Ranged classes opposed to Melee classes ? did the power creep put almost any Melee class at a disadvantage? Ive seen a lot of mixed opinions on this :)

 

im sure ill get a comment "well your just bad at guard" your probably right xD so ANY TIPS ARE ACCEPTED hahahaa :) Thanks all

[reddie.5861]

rangers are quite easy to beat, deadeye is another story unless u catch em on error or they decide to fight it out (which are stupid ones).

anyway both of em do not even get close to amount of "rewards" melee classes get.

 

reward wise ranger/deadeye are prolly worst of all classes in wvw, so no worries about it.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

I enjoyed fights much more pre HOT and POF.

The combat strength balance between classes was much better then.

HOT wasn't too bad after a few balances were done.

But POF skewed the DPS/mobility/stealth creep so much between classes that there are now dominant Low-risk high-rewards roaming classes/builds and classes that are seen as punching bags.

 

**People forgot that all classes were fairly well balanced and capable roamers at the start.**

 

By range classes I suppose you mean specifically deadeyes and soulbeasts. Which you're right that they along with Mirage have builds that belong to the dominant Low risk high reward category.

 

These are the classes that best show the DPS, mobility and stealth power creep all rolled into one.

 

* Deadeye: Invis spike kite invis spike kite invis spike kite.

* Mirage: Condi spike every few seconds with a load of survivability.

* Soulbeasts: shoot run shoot run shoot run. Or high protection and weakness uptime.

 

So much skill so much wow.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsfYoi5SQc4

[Skotlex.7580]

due to the way that wvw works, in a zerg versus zerg setting, either ranged ain't that great (back when most ranged attacks were just reflected), and we have melee clashes with rangers and the like being generally dismissed; or ranged is pretty great, and we end up with the current ship meta (still defined my unreflectable attacks).

 

Wouldn't a much more useful question be.. is there anyway to balance this, to make room for melee fights and have ranged support work?

 

The other day I was thinking that if only players had some kind of shield that stacks out of combat, and which reduces ranged damage, and that the only way to remove stacks is by hitting them with melee attacks, would that be an effective way to balance the use of ranged and melee fighters?

[kash.9213]

> @"Skotlex.7580" said:

> due to the way that wvw works, in a zerg versus zerg setting, either ranged ain't that great (back when most ranged attacks were just reflected), and we have melee clashes with rangers and the like being generally dismissed; or ranged is pretty great, and we end up with the current ship meta (still defined my unreflectable attacks).

>

> Wouldn't a much more useful question be.. is there anyway to balance this, to make room for melee fights and have ranged support work?

>

> The other day I was thinking that if only players had some kind of shield that stacks out of combat, and which reduces ranged damage, and that the only way to remove stacks is by hitting them with melee attacks, would that be an effective way to balance the use of ranged and melee fighters?

 

When I play my deadeye I'd like range to be effective and fun. I mostly use low damage deaths judgement for boon steals and then control skills but that kind of makes things easier anyway. I mostly float around the map covering people and squads and despite not having the stopping power of some DE's, rifle 2 and 3 in Kneel is no joke but I'd be forced to my sword every time someone dropped in behind me.

[Infusion.7149]

You haven't seen the 12K Vaults thieves have been landing on my 3.2K armor.

 

Rangers only shine in roaming, in larger groups the amount of projectile reflection and protection / armor boosts means ranger longbow and deadeye rifles are more gimmicky.

 

Melee MUST do more sustained damage than ranged (in every game mode) because it's easier to avoid melee hits than ranged hits unless you're immobilized or stunlocked.

 

That is the reason gunflame was toned down and so was CoR. Meteor shower is kept in check by a long cast time and recharge , the skill coefficient isn't that high at 1.6 scaling.

 

Imagine if ranger longbow outdid greatsword, rev hammer did more than sword + sword, necro axe did more than GS or reaper shroud, or engineer rifle outdid Photon Forge or Bomb Kit. We'd have a huge issue.

 

P.S. deadeyes can be blocked or reflected now.

[Hitman.5829]

Anet thinks that range classes should deal massive damage while melee classes have to deal low damage. I do not know how they came up with that hideous idea, but it is hurting the game bad. Perhaps Anet is just trying to appeal to their customers who the majority are rangers, thieves, mesmers.

 

All the games that I have played, the melee classes are the ones that are supposed to hit the hardest due to their low range constrain.

But in the "marvelous" game that Anet has created, it is the other way around!

[Kirin.7306]

17k backstabs

15k hammers

12k mauls

etc etc

[enkidu.5937]

> @"Kirin.7306" said:

> 17k backstabs

Thief stays oor -> permastealthes -> tries to one shot -> permastealthes -> oor / ooc

Thats not even close to melee class imo.

> 15k hammers

So, theres a Guardian, that has to sacrify Vita and mobility, just for one combo, mighty blow + judges intervention, with 36secs CD, great, not.

> 12k mauls

From a SB, that already has ridiculous range damage, great. SB is a range class, right?

> etc etc

What is this "etc etc", just curious. What comes to my mind is maybe Dare Devil + Vault?

 

Considering the kiting potential of range classes, it normally is not possible to apply melee damage constantly. And if a melee class finally manages to get close enough to its target, that target starts spamming dodge/evade/vigor/invuln/stabi/blocks. So, imo range damage is not the issue, but the combination with tons of other stuff, that gives at least temporary melee off / def ability and sustain to non-melee classes / specs on top of kiting / disengage abilities.

 

[DemonSeed.3528]

> @"enkidu.5937" said:

> > 15k hammers

> So, theres a Guardian, that has to sacrify Vita and mobility, just for one combo, mighty blow + judges intervention, with 36secs CD, great, not.

I've been hit by higher dmg by hammer revs :P I think it topped to around 17-18k, this was also not during blust event. Not sure if they meant rev or guard though.

 

[enkidu.5937]

> @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

> > @"enkidu.5937" said:

> > > 15k hammers

> > So, theres a Guardian, that has to sacrify Vita and mobility, just for one combo, mighty blow + judges intervention, with 36secs CD, great, not.

> I've been hit by higher dmg by hammer revs :P I think it topped to around 17-18k, this was also not during blust event. Not sure if they meant rev or guard though.

Hammer Rev is ranged, so I might not get the point. The thread is about ranged classes outperforming melee classes. Examples, how powerfull ranged classes can hit at range or melee just strenghtens the point of the TO as I understand it.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"enkidu.5937" said:

> The thread is about ranged classes outperforming melee classes.

 

So, ranged outperform melee... Lets assume that for a moment. That the soulbeast is outperforming. Ok then what counters ranged? High mobility (to get close), reflects/blocks (to avoid damage or turn it against the ranged), stealth (supplemental to mobility) and cleanse/stunbreaks (to avoid kiting/immobilize).

 

Which gives us mostly builds among...

 

Mesmers, thieves, engies, rangers and warriors.

 

Pure coincidence, I'm sure. Well the warrior cant stealth but I'm sure they deal with it.

[enkidu.5937]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"enkidu.5937" said:

> > The thread is about ranged classes outperforming melee classes.

>

> So, ranged outperform melee... Lets assume that for a moment. That the soulbeast is outperforming. Ok then what counters ranged? High mobility (to get close), reflects/blocks (to avoid damage or turn it against the ranged), stealth (supplemental to mobility) and cleanse/stunbreaks (to avoid kiting/immobilize).

>

> Which gives us mostly builds among...

>

> Mesmers, thieves, engies, rangers and warriors.

>

> Pure coincidence, I'm sure. Well the warrior cant stealth but I'm sure they deal with it.

How could these things counter ranged, when most ranged classes / specs also have it?

 

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"enkidu.5937" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"enkidu.5937" said:

> > > The thread is about ranged classes outperforming melee classes.

> >

> > So, ranged outperform melee... Lets assume that for a moment. That the soulbeast is outperforming. Ok then what counters ranged? High mobility (to get close), reflects/blocks (to avoid damage or turn it against the ranged), stealth (supplemental to mobility) and cleanse/stunbreaks (to avoid kiting/immobilize).

> >

> > Which gives us mostly builds among...

> >

> > Mesmers, thieves, engies, rangers and warriors.

> >

> > Pure coincidence, I'm sure. Well the warrior cant stealth but I'm sure they deal with it.

> How could these things counter ranged, when most ranged classes / specs also have it?

>

So you're saying that a soulbeast isnt fit fight a soulbeast? Most of the them are strongest at melee range but some specifically counter ranged, yes. You never seen a thief backstab a ranged class before they even know they are there? Or a ranged class killing themselves on a mesmer? Or a warrior just tank through ranged fire.

 

look its real simple, I'll spell it out for you: every other regular roaming spec is more than capable of fighting your average soulbeast.

 

Are they strong? Well yes. Because *every class is strong when helmed by good players*.

[Jeknar.6184]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> Or a ranged class killing themselves on a mesmer?

 

Honestly, it's been very long since I last saw a Ranger kill himself while attacking a mesmer because, you know, unblockables are a very common thing for Soulbeast.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Jeknar.6184" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > Or a ranged class killing themselves on a mesmer?

>

> Honestly, it's been very long since I last saw a Ranger kill himself while attacking a mesmer because, you know, unblockables are a very common thing for Soulbeast.

Well bad soulbeasts are a very common thing too, most just knockback followed by rapid fire and forget unblockable. And if they do remember that, you dodge/teleport through it and is in melee range.

 

Good rangers are *dangerous* but just as predictable as on rails shatter/condi mesmers or steal tp thieves.

[Jski.6180]

The only real problem right now is ranger have a bit too much unblockable effects in that it last for too long. (though at the same time there too much projectile hate.)

So what we end up with is only ranger is able to use ranged attk and other classes are left out comply.

 

Now out side of that rangers are lacking.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Ranged damage is not only class but individual spec dependant. DE,ranger and mesmer can pull off high spikes from range for sure but dh longbow and thief sb blow damage wise and are only usefull for utility, though true shot while tethered does ok but that’s quite the set up in pvp modes where it isn’t stripped or blocked 90% of the time

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Either base damage in rapid fire should be reduced,six em numbers shaved to 25% or increase rapid fire CD. DE is a mess so don’t even want to try any suggestions

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Ranged should be effective or there’s no point in having it as an option but if a skill does a lot of ranged dps it should have a heavy drawback like a long cd

[Doo Lally.8594]

> @"Jeknar.6184" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > Or a ranged class killing themselves on a mesmer?

>

> Honestly, it's been very long since I last saw a Ranger kill himself while attacking a mesmer because, you know, unblockables are a very common thing for Soulbeast.

 

Even when I forget my unblockable(s) I've never died to reflect cos 'dodge' before I eat the entire damage. ;)

[sinsrock.1702]

all I know is that me playing Soulbeast I mean there are definitely good players that can beat me im not a MVP soulbeast BUT I do know 1 on 1 using Longbow sic em I can really have an upperhand in most fights because of unblockable etc.

I personally LOVE when I see a DH or guard because they try to block my dmg and I have unblockable up they don't even know what to do after that. but being on the receiving end sucks too xD (trying to get into guard)

[gebrechen.5643]

The problem here is that some classes have way to good combinations of mobility, stealth, damage, boon access and that scales well with the item inflation from HoT and PoF.

Before HoT hit you had to sacrifice stats to either go bunker or go full dps. Bunker meant your fight would take forever and your damage was on the lower end, because you almost had no crit chance and no crit damage and very low condition damage. If you went full dps your #1 choice was berserker gear which made you really easy to kill when you made a mistake.

These days you stack stuff like Divine Armor on a ranger, mix in a bit of whatever you and run around with perma protection, perma swiftness, perma regen, while having unblockables, damage modifiers deluxe and in general a lot more tools than a core ranger

That is true for many of the "considered op" classes. We got marauder gear, we got trailblazer, etc. The new stat options combined with strong runesets, strong sigils, food and oil/stones and classes that have too much of everything make this game shitty on small scale and pretty "straight and boring" in large scale.

 

It's not fun at all.

[Solori.6025]

> @"enkidu.5937" said:

> > @"Kirin.7306" said:

> > 17k backstabs

> Thief stays oor -> permastealthes -> tries to one shot -> permastealthes -> oor / ooc

> Thats not even close to melee class imo.

 

... Backstab DE as cheesy as it is. Is melee....

> > 15k hammers

> So, theres a Guardian, that has to sacrify Vita and mobility, just for one combo, mighty blow + judges intervention, with 36secs CD, great, not.

 

That build uses Valkyrie. With perma fury. No sacrifice in bit needed. And Also one of the few performing meta core classes in the game right now.

> > 12k mauls

> From a SB, that already has ridiculous range damage, great. SB is a range class, right?

Prolly. I mean 20k Rapid fire is pretty funny to land on people

> > etc etc

> What is this "etc etc", just curious. What comes to my mind is maybe Dare Devil + Vault?

>

 

Prolly...

> Considering the kiting potential of range classes, it normally is not possible to apply melee damage constantly. And if a melee class finally manages to get close enough to its target, that target starts spamming dodge/evade/vigor/invuln/stabi/blocks. So, imo range damage is not the issue, but the combination with tons of other stuff, that gives at least temporary melee off / def ability and sustain to non-melee classes / specs on top of kiting / disengage abilities.

>

 

Problem actually is everything from defense to damage and everything in between. Has been powercrept to ridiculousness. Everything needs to be nerfed or we will always have these polar extremes.

Until Anet puts balance over profit. This will only get worse with the new expac.

[Solori.6025]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> The only real problem right now is ranger have a bit too much unblockable effects in that it last for too long. (though at the same time there too much projectile hate.)

> So what we end up with is only ranger is able to use ranged attk and other classes are left out comply.

>

> Now out side of that rangers are lacking.

 

Lacking what? They have plenty of sustain. Plenty of mobility and probably one of the most mobile next to thief.

What are they lacking?