so why no player to player trading?

[Ashantara.8731]

> @"Pirindolo.9427" said:

> Scam? What Scam?

>

> Player A opens a trade window with player B

> Player A drops the item / Money he is going to trade, from inventory to trade window

> Player B drops the item / money he is going to trade, from inventory to trade window

> Player A and B , after inspection of both items, click "confirm trade" or "cancel trade"

>

> Only if 2 confirm trade are clicked, the pending trade is released. Otherwise, it's canceled.

 

You wouldn't believe how many people can't handle this sort of transaction properly. Just read the Steam games forums, and you will find hundreds of thousands of whiny threads from people who got scammed. Besides, the scam does not necessarily occur during the trade exchange - often scammers would take advantage of new players and sell them worthless stuff for crazy prices. Scammers will always find victims and ways, that much the past 20 years of online gaming have taught me.

[Nasbit.3240]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> Personal opinion: I wouldn't want us to go back. I've read the heart-wrenching appeals from scammed players and betrayed friends and guildies. I've seen the occasional gloat from someone who took advantage of others. Both convince me the TP is a very good, player-friendly system that benefits us all.

 

Correct me if i am wrong... but the "_personal opinion_" as you describe it... is an opinion about trading as it is currently.

Someone send smth., and _**hopes**_ he will get what he want. So a lot of scam happens here.

**But** with the concept we want - that would be different!

We dont want trading as it is currently. We want a _Player to Player (p2p)-Trading_, like it was in gw1. A window - both can place items/gold in, and **BOTH** have to accept after the other side has changed the offer. So no scam possible.

_(Except, one give a item and other says "Give it to me - then i get the item you want from the guild-bank" - actually, that is stupid)_

[Ameepa.6793]

I don't want Player to Player trading. System is perfect as it is now.

[Nasbit.3240]

> @"Ameepa.6793" said:

> I don't want Player to Player trading. System is perfect as it is now.

 

[https://reddit.com/r/GW2Exchange/](https://www.reddit.com/r/GW2Exchange/ "https://reddit.com/r/GW2Exchange/") - Looks perfect. :#

Who needs ingame-solutions - youre correct!

 

/irony off

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Nasbit.3240" said:

> > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > Personal opinion: I wouldn't want us to go back. I've read the heart-wrenching appeals from scammed players and betrayed friends and guildies. I've seen the occasional gloat from someone who took advantage of others. Both convince me the TP is a very good, player-friendly system that benefits us all.

>

> Correct me if i am wrong... but the "_personal opinion_" as you describe it... is an opinion about trading as it is currently.

> Someone send smth., and _**hopes**_ he will get what he want. So a lot of scam happens here.

> **But** with the concept we want - that would be different!

> We dont want trading as it is currently. We want a _Player to Player (p2p)-Trading_, like it was in gw1. A window - both can place items/gold in, and **BOTH** have to accept after the other side has changed the offer. So no scam possible.

> _(Except, one give a item and other says "Give it to me - then i get the item you want from the guild-bank" - actually, that is stupid)_

 

You're wrong on one count, it's quite possible and unless you haven't read any of the other posts on here it will happen. Does not matter if both parties have to accept, that was the method in GW1 and scamming was prevalent because so many items had similar looking icons...trust those of us that seen the damage, you don't need it with being able to mail items to friends and the TP.

[Nasbit.3240]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > @"Nasbit.3240" said:

> > > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > > Personal opinion: I wouldn't want us to go back. I've read the heart-wrenching appeals from scammed players and betrayed friends and guildies. I've seen the occasional gloat from someone who took advantage of others. Both convince me the TP is a very good, player-friendly system that benefits us all.

> >

> > Correct me if i am wrong... but the "_personal opinion_" as you describe it... is an opinion about trading as it is currently.

> > Someone send smth., and _**hopes**_ he will get what he want. So a lot of scam happens here.

> > **But** with the concept we want - that would be different!

> > We dont want trading as it is currently. We want a _Player to Player (p2p)-Trading_, like it was in gw1. A window - both can place items/gold in, and **BOTH** have to accept after the other side has changed the offer. So no scam possible.

> > _(Except, one give a item and other says "Give it to me - then i get the item you want from the guild-bank" - actually, that is stupid)_

>

> You're wrong on one count, it's quite possible and unless you haven't read any of the other posts on here it will happen. Does not matter if both parties have to accept, that was the method in GW1 and scamming was prevalent because so many items had similar looking icons...trust those of us that seen the damage, you don't need it with being able to mail items to friends and the TP.

 

Used / modified items are autom. soulbound by the game. There are almost no items that are worth trading that looks like scap. And gw2 has much better tooltips/naming - so its not like it was in gw1.

In Gw2 you instant see if someone give you 10g or 10s - so what possible scam from gw1 could happen samewise in gw2?

[Shep.4026]

When I think of all the horrible scamming that went on in GW1, I'm more than happy that it's impossible for those things to happen here.

[Acotje.5689]

> @"Ghostrider.6879" said:

> After playing POE, I just want to say that I absolutely adore the trading post in GW2.

 

I offer you 2 Necropolis maps, you profit 35c.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

While I understand the risk of scams, I think it would be nice if GW2 had a way to safely trade without the trading post fees. Especially for extremely valuable items like legendary weapons, invisible shoes and rare infusions.

 

By the way: Some extremely rare items like the [Chak Infusion](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chak_Infusion "Chak Infusion") tend to be traded outside of the trading post already because these items are bought for more than 10000 gold, which is the TP limit. I wonder how they are traded here.

[Nasbit.3240]

> @"TheQuickFox.3826" said:

> By the way: Some extremely rare items like the [Chak Infusion](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chak_Infusion "Chak Infusion") tend to be traded outside of the trading post already because these items are bought for more than 10000 gold, which is the TP limit. I wonder how they are traded here.

 

i posted the sub-reddit above where a lot of this trades are done.

Most trades have a man-in-the-middle, which is mostly one of the moderators of the subreddit. Or someone else both sides trust. Thats how trading today works. An P2P-Trading-UI would just replace the middle-man.

 

[Gehenna.3625]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > Not to mention the advantage of a lack of Spamadam. There's no way I would want to spend hours upon hours in the equivalent of Spamadam in GW2.

>

> How could I forget that! Yes, map chat is a whoooole lot better without that nonsense. :dizzy:

Well, we didn't have another means of letting people know what we had for sale really, so to call it nonsense is perhaps a little unfair. And he was of course referring to the amount of time it could take to sell something which took a major chunk of your playing time and I think that's definitely fair comment.

 

Although there are some parts of direct trade that are also positive, I do think the TP was the best way forward. As much as people may not like to hear it, gold sinks are incredibly important in an economy that can essentially generate gold from nothing. It's not fun to have to pay 15% for transactions but it is necessary I think to keep the economy safe from over-inflation.

[Pirindolo.9427]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Pirindolo.9427" said:

> > Scam? What Scam?

> >

> > Player A opens a trade window with player B

> > Player A drops the item / Money he is going to trade, from inventory to trade window

> > Player B drops the item / money he is going to trade, from inventory to trade window

> > Player A and B , after inspection of both items, click "confirm trade" or "cancel trade"

> >

> > Only if 2 confirm trade are clicked, the pending trade is released. Otherwise, it's canceled.

>

> Yes, nice theory there. Still didn't work in a real life scenario.

>

> The TP is here to stay and direct player to player trading will not get implemented. Period.

 

Oh, really?

 

Go play Star Wars The Old Republic a couple of years, like I did, and then tell me that this system is just a theory that didn't work in a real life scenario.

 

Catch you in a couple of years.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Pirindolo.9427" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Pirindolo.9427" said:

> > > Scam? What Scam?

> > >

> > > Player A opens a trade window with player B

> > > Player A drops the item / Money he is going to trade, from inventory to trade window

> > > Player B drops the item / money he is going to trade, from inventory to trade window

> > > Player A and B , after inspection of both items, click "confirm trade" or "cancel trade"

> > >

> > > Only if 2 confirm trade are clicked, the pending trade is released. Otherwise, it's canceled.

> >

> > Yes, nice theory there. Still didn't work in a real life scenario.

> >

> > The TP is here to stay and direct player to player trading will not get implemented. Period.

>

> Oh, really?

>

> Go play Star Wars The Old Republic a couple of years, like I did, and then tell me that this system is just a theory that didn't work in a real life scenario.

>

> Catch you in a couple of years.

 

Actually I did. I also played Diablo 2 and Guild Wars 1. Take a guess which games had a ton of scammers?

 

Go read Gailes official response on just this subject from Guild Wars 1 IN THIS THREAD.

 

Catch you once you've realised that the system is not fool proof and people still got scammed.

 

While we are at it, maybe go check if there is absolutely 0 trade scams in SWTOR, once you've realized that's not the case, come back and let's have a talk. You know your kinda wrong when not even your example works.

[Ok I Did It.2854]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"mauried.5608" said:

> > One problem p2p solves is it allows players to buy items that arnt for sale on the TP.

> > Not everthing thats sellable is always available on the TP.

> >

>

> What items would those be? The only items I can think of would be

> * **A limited number of infusions, but that's because the demand far exceeds the in-game supply.**

> * Items that stopped dropping, but those have counterparts that drop, so not a real issue.

> * Relatively new items, but those will become available

>

> Regardless, I am always able to put in an offer for any item and eventually it will be fulfilled. I can't think of any example in which the obstacle was other than my being unwilling to pay more.

 

They aren't on the market because Anet has put the drop rate so low that it has allowed some richer players to push the price upwards of 15-18k gold ( or items to match ) saying its a supply/ demand is misleading i feel, as if you only see 1 drop a month and 200 people want it, Anet chooses to ignore this sort of problem time after time, ive also noticed the invisible boxes sky rocketing in price, so thats something else that has been lower to near no drop rate, ( i have farmed every meta in this game many times over, with friends and guildies, and never seen an infusion or ultra rare drop yet )

 

Anet are the soul purpose for the black market in this game, they drive it themselves with the unbelievably bad RNG, and when people realise they can go black market the skys the limit on pricing.

 

https://www.gw2bltc.com/en/item/72021-Chak-Egg-Sac

 

There are offers for 10k gold on these, and 0 for sale, why would anyone sale it for 10k ( less taxes ) when they can go black market make 18k and no taxes, ( or use the trusted middle man and pay 5% )

 

https://www.gw2bltc.com/en/item/81663-Queen-Bee-Infusion

 

These have also started creeping back up in price, again this item has 3 listed on the TP, again someone could make way more going black market.

 

The sad thing is there are newer players in this game who wont ever get to see items on the TP at all, because of the stupid drop rate with no chance to ever get one. The only way your getting a 10k item for 10k is if it drops for some random new player who has no idea they can get 7-8k more for it by going onto the black market.

 

Anet want people to use the TP ( it is more secure, and removes % of gold which keeps things stable ) yet they do nothing to help the current situation, any meta that drops an infusion should also drop 1 ticket, if you get 250 tickets you can go buy ( an account bound ) version of that infusion from a vendor, otherwise the rich continue to get richer and control the market.

[rev in love.8439]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> In short: We saw the risks and the costs to players in Player-to-Player deals gone bad. They existed in Guild Wars; they existed in many other games.

>

> The development of the Trading Post was given a lot of thought and careful planning. The objective was to develop a system that allowed players to conduct transactions in a safe and secure manner.

>

> Personal opinion: I wouldn't want us to go back. I've read the heart-wrenching appeals from scammed players and betrayed friends and guildies. I've seen the occasional gloat from someone who took advantage of others. Both convince me the TP is a very good, player-friendly system that benefits us all.

 

Although I agree in part, there are several ways to make exchanges with full security. An example would be a pop-up window, where each of the two that will make the exchange can see their boxes and objects that both deposit in real time, when accepting each one of them another window emerges for both to accept that exchange, in case of that one of them does not accept the exchange will be canceled. We all know that it is not implemented by monetary question, since there are sure ways to exchange things. Greetings. Translated from Spanish

[Kunzaito.8169]

One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned yet is that not implementing a p2p system isn't an oversight or a gap to be filled, it's a *deliberate* deterrent to trading directly. Nothing in an MMO exists in a vacuum; it's not just "some players want a p2p trading interface and it won't affect anyone else so we should have it." If such a system were implemented it removes a piece of the barrier that makes the TP function. p2p trading *needs* to be risky and uncertain to drive people to use the TP for all but the most motivated or experienced players, or situations of very high trust (within a family or friend circle, say). They *want* as few people and transactions as possible working outside of the TP.

 

If they add a "secure" trading window (air quotes because of all the other games previously mentioned with such a system that had many scams) now there's less or no more perceived risk to trading off post with a big reward in terms of gold profit or savings (in many cases because of an intention to take advantage of the other party's ignorance). Suddenly you're gonna see the map chat spam, you'll get whispers and mails and all that junk. ANet's support infrastructure takes a hit, because now instead of "trade at your own risk" they have to look into all the reports from people getting scammed that there might be a bug in the trade interface. And so on, and so forth.

 

Very few things are as narrowly impactful as people think.

[Etria.3642]

SWTOR has rampant inflation and I made millions on their market not...scamming per say but kind of.

 

They have armor boxes that come with two pieces of gear that you cannot preview. I would buy those for one price, open, and sell the two separate for MUCH higher because people just wouldn't look for the boxes. It was as much as paying 4500 for a box and selling the gloves for 4500 and the chest for 450000.

 

Some times more, depending on whether the chest looked nice. I would even tell Guildies to OPEN the boxes and sell yet they would tell me it was 'too much trouble' because there is a five day wait before you can sell.

 

I love the gw2 tp.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> In short: We saw the risks and the costs to players in Player-to-Player deals gone bad. They existed in Guild Wars; they existed in many other games.

>

> The development of the Trading Post was given a lot of thought and careful planning. The objective was to develop a system that allowed players to conduct transactions in a safe and secure manner.

>

> Personal opinion: I wouldn't want us to go back. I've read the heart-wrenching appeals from scammed players and betrayed friends and guildies. I've seen the occasional gloat from someone who took advantage of others. Both convince me the TP is a very good, player-friendly system that benefits us all.

 

right on.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Ok I Did It.2854" said:

> They aren't on the market because Anet has put the drop rate so low that it has allowed some richer players to push the price upwards of 15-18k gold ( or items to match ) saying its a supply/ demand is misleading i feel, as if you only see 1 drop a month and 200 people want it, Anet chooses to ignore this sort of problem time after time, ive also noticed the invisible boxes sky rocketing in price, so thats something else that has been lower to near no drop rate, ( i have farmed every meta in this game many times over, with friends and guildies, and never seen an infusion or ultra rare drop yet )

 

They are, in fact, sold via the TP. They are sold instantly for 10k. If ANet raised the cap on TP sales from 10k to 30k, there would be plenty on the TP. Further it's disingenuous to say that "richer players push the price upwards," because that is exactly how market demand works: people pay what they are willing to afford. Nor is the price "skyrocketing;" it's been pretty stable for chak egg sac infusions, confetti infusions, rising a bit but not by leaps & bounds.

 

The drop rate is intended to be low, so that the item remains valuable.

 

 

> There are offers for 10k gold on these, and 0 for sale, why would anyone sale it for 10k ( less taxes ) when they can go black market make 18k and no taxes, ( or use the trusted middle man and pay 5% )

And yet, people do.

https://www.gw2bltc.com/en/item/72021-Chak-Egg-Sac

If you look at the year trend, there appear to be a few sold each month, after taking into account some people removing their buy offers (which can get included in the chart).

 

>

> https://www.gw2bltc.com/en/item/81663-Queen-Bee-Infusion

> These have also started creeping back up in price, again this item has 3 listed on the TP, again someone could make way more going black market.

Look at the set of all Queen Bee infusions

https://www.gw2bltc.com/en/tp/search?name=queen%20be%20infusion

* Top buy offers as low as 1k; none higher than 5k.

* Sell offers current peak at 8400, which is consistent for the year; there's no trend of increasing prices.

 

> Anet want people to use the TP ( it is more secure, and removes % of gold which keeps things stable ) yet they do nothing to help the current situation, any meta that drops an infusion should also drop 1 ticket, if you get 250 tickets you can go buy ( an account bound ) version of that infusion from a vendor, otherwise the rich continue to get richer and control the market.

It's not a "situation." It applies to basically three items (in their half dozen variations each).

 

[Gehenna.3625]

> @"Pirindolo.9427" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Pirindolo.9427" said:

> > > Scam? What Scam?

> > >

> > > Player A opens a trade window with player B

> > > Player A drops the item / Money he is going to trade, from inventory to trade window

> > > Player B drops the item / money he is going to trade, from inventory to trade window

> > > Player A and B , after inspection of both items, click "confirm trade" or "cancel trade"

> > >

> > > Only if 2 confirm trade are clicked, the pending trade is released. Otherwise, it's canceled.

> >

> > Yes, nice theory there. Still didn't work in a real life scenario.

> >

> > The TP is here to stay and direct player to player trading will not get implemented. Period.

>

> Oh, really?

>

> Go play Star Wars The Old Republic a couple of years, like I did, and then tell me that this system is just a theory that didn't work in a real life scenario.

>

> Catch you in a couple of years.

 

Well it worked in GW1 as well but what happened a lot is that people changed their offer just before trading and acted like it was a misclick. So you really have to pay attention to what the new offer is because they made it look similar but it wasn't the same. I've had people try this in SWTOR as well. So in theory it works but there are still people trying to trick you just the same.

 

That aside, there are more reason to disallow direct player trade which in SWTOR you had as well because F2P players don't get that option either. So as much as it works as described, it's still not likely to happen in this game.

 

[Ayrilana.1396]

So it seems people just want to open up P2P trading so that can get things cheaper or sell them for more?

[Diak Atoli.2085]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> So it seems people just want to open up P2P trading so that can get things cheaper or sell them for more?

 

Since peer-to-peer trading provides no other benefit vs a trading Post, I would say so. Two pages of dialogue would appear to agree with both of us.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Diak Atoli.2085" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > So it seems people just want to open up P2P trading so that can get things cheaper or sell them for more?

>

> Since peer-to-peer trading provides no other benefit vs a trading Post, I would say so. Two pages of dialogue would appear to agree with both of us.

 

cuz tax

(mehhh)

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Diak Atoli.2085" said:

> > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > So it seems people just want to open up P2P trading so that can get things cheaper or sell them for more?

> >

> > Since peer-to-peer trading provides no other benefit vs a trading Post, I would say so. Two pages of dialogue would appear to agree with both of us.

>

> cuz tax

> (mehhh)

 

I thought you posted above that you understood why there is a tax on TP trades.

 

I'm sure that any _official_ P2P trade mechanic would include the same 15% fees.

It could even be designed to look up the market rates on the TP and charge a fee even if people are exchanging e.g. ecto from player A for mystic coins from player B.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> So it seems people just want to open up P2P trading so that can get things cheaper or sell them for more?

 

That seems to be the primary reason from most of the supporting posts I've seen over the years (almost never phrased so plainly, of course). However there are two other intertwined reasons: for some people, trading is fun; they like the negotiation. Others find it a good way to break the ice for meeting people in game.

 

(Although I agree with both, I don't see that being important enough to counter the advantages the TP has for the community as a whole. At best, that's a tiny fraction of players, none of whom are stopped from trading.)