Solori.6025 Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 > @"Yannir.4132" said: > > Honestly I'd like if they just removed Torment from Mesmer. I cant remember who posted the idea but it was along the lines of classes having main conditions. I also dont understand why they didnt just use bleeding. As that to me fits more with the illusions and glass theme. Torment should honestly be exclusive to Necromancer imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yannir.4132 Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"Yannir.4132" said: > > > > > Honestly I'd like if they just removed Torment from Mesmer. > > I cant remember who posted the idea but it was along the lines of classes having main conditions. > I also dont understand why they didnt just use bleeding. As that to me fits more with the illusions and glass theme. Torment should honestly be exclusive to Necromancer imo It honestly fits Revenant too. I consider Torment a lesser version of things like Agony/Spectral Agony that are Mists-based. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 > @"Yannir.4132" said: > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > @"Yannir.4132" said: > > > > > > > > Honestly I'd like if they just removed Torment from Mesmer. > > > > I cant remember who posted the idea but it was along the lines of classes having main conditions. > > I also dont understand why they didnt just use bleeding. As that to me fits more with the illusions and glass theme. Torment should honestly be exclusive to Necromancer imo > > It honestly fits Revenant too. I consider Torment a lesser version of things like Agony/Spectral Agony that are Mists-based. I can subscribe to that +1 sir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math.5123 Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > It's hard to read feedback is scattered in the 10+ threads that pop up daily. > > > > > > > > tbh it's easier to find things in 10 different threads than to try and read a 100 page megathread. > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't be so sure when almost all of those 10 threads don't offer constructive feedback and are people venting. > > > > > > It also clogs up the forum and finding something interesting becomes difficult since a majority everything is non constructive feedback about why a class is OP. > > > > Ultimately, the knowledgable portion of the community has identified 3x problems: > > * Infinite Horizon > > * Illusionary Ambush > > * Axes of Symmetry > > > > Just ignore discussion that hovers outside of these 3 things. > > > > And this is why things never get fixed properly. The knowledgeable side of the community also thought torch was a problem. Then vigor. Then blurred frenzy. Oh and. 2s stability on shatters. > Still hasnt fixed the issue of condi mirage having the ability to frequently condi burst someone to oblivion has it? > > Maybe this knowledgeable community isn't so knowledgeable. > Torch was an issue though. Every class got their burns toned down in terms of burst except mesmer, so it was only fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"Yannir.4132" said: > > > > > Honestly I'd like if they just removed Torment from Mesmer. > > I cant remember who posted the idea but it was along the lines of classes having main conditions. > I also dont understand why they didnt just use bleeding. As that to me fits more with the illusions and glass theme. Torment should honestly be exclusive to Necromancer imo Think it was apharma. The idea is undoubtedly good but requires a huge nerf to condi cleanses as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > It's hard to read feedback is scattered in the 10+ threads that pop up daily. > > > > > > > > > > tbh it's easier to find things in 10 different threads than to try and read a 100 page megathread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't be so sure when almost all of those 10 threads don't offer constructive feedback and are people venting. > > > > > > > > It also clogs up the forum and finding something interesting becomes difficult since a majority everything is non constructive feedback about why a class is OP. > > > > > > Ultimately, the knowledgable portion of the community has identified 3x problems: > > > * Infinite Horizon > > > * Illusionary Ambush > > > * Axes of Symmetry > > > > > > Just ignore discussion that hovers outside of these 3 things. > > > > > > > And this is why things never get fixed properly. The knowledgeable side of the community also thought torch was a problem. Then vigor. Then blurred frenzy. Oh and. 2s stability on shatters. > > Still hasnt fixed the issue of condi mirage having the ability to frequently condi burst someone to oblivion has it? > > > > Maybe this knowledgeable community isn't so knowledgeable. > > > > Torch was an issue though. Every class got their burns toned down in terms of burst except mesmer, so it was only fair. Three stacks of burn vs an easy 15-20 stacks of torment and confusion. What seems like a more pressing issue to you. Yes other classes had their condition output nerfed. Which is what I thought last year and this new year would be the main thing people were concerned about. It's looking like we'll be waiting another year for this singular issue to be fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 sees buff teef link in signature HMMMM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > It's hard to read feedback is scattered in the 10+ threads that pop up daily. > > > > > > > > > > tbh it's easier to find things in 10 different threads than to try and read a 100 page megathread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't be so sure when almost all of those 10 threads don't offer constructive feedback and are people venting. > > > > > > > > It also clogs up the forum and finding something interesting becomes difficult since a majority everything is non constructive feedback about why a class is OP. > > > > > > Ultimately, the knowledgable portion of the community has identified 3x problems: > > > * Infinite Horizon > > > * Illusionary Ambush > > > * Axes of Symmetry > > > > > > Just ignore discussion that hovers outside of these 3 things. > > > > > > > And this is why things never get fixed properly. The knowledgeable side of the community also thought torch was a problem. Then vigor. Then blurred frenzy. Oh and. 2s stability on shatters. > > Still hasnt fixed the issue of condi mirage having the ability to frequently condi burst someone to oblivion has it? > > > > Maybe this knowledgeable community isn't so knowledgeable. > > > > Torch was an issue though. Every class got their burns toned down in terms of burst except mesmer, so it was only fair. Funny thing, I said when people complained about the torch and the burns that they weren't that big of an issue. I told them if it gets nerfed it won't solve any of the problems. Know what happened? They nerfed the stacks on the torch. It changed nothing because the torch was never the problem. Nerfing in the wrong place only leads to what happens now where you have players waving their hands in the air, creating rant videos and acting like the monkeys they like to call other people because it's been 6 months and the real issues aren't being addressed. They aren't being addressed because people on the forums don't properly articulate, define and specifically state what is their problem with the class. Instead they say "too many evades" or "too much damage". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math.5123 Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > It's hard to read feedback is scattered in the 10+ threads that pop up daily. > > > > > > > > > > > > tbh it's easier to find things in 10 different threads than to try and read a 100 page megathread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't be so sure when almost all of those 10 threads don't offer constructive feedback and are people venting. > > > > > > > > > > It also clogs up the forum and finding something interesting becomes difficult since a majority everything is non constructive feedback about why a class is OP. > > > > > > > > Ultimately, the knowledgable portion of the community has identified 3x problems: > > > > * Infinite Horizon > > > > * Illusionary Ambush > > > > * Axes of Symmetry > > > > > > > > Just ignore discussion that hovers outside of these 3 things. > > > > > > > > > > And this is why things never get fixed properly. The knowledgeable side of the community also thought torch was a problem. Then vigor. Then blurred frenzy. Oh and. 2s stability on shatters. > > > Still hasnt fixed the issue of condi mirage having the ability to frequently condi burst someone to oblivion has it? > > > > > > Maybe this knowledgeable community isn't so knowledgeable. > > > > > > > Torch was an issue though. Every class got their burns toned down in terms of burst except mesmer, so it was only fair. > > Funny thing, I said when people complained about the torch and the burns that they weren't that big of an issue. I told them if it gets nerfed it won't solve any of the problems. Know what happened? They nerfed the stacks on the torch. It changed nothing because the torch was never the problem. > > Nerfing in the wrong place only leads to what happens now where you have players waving their hands in the air, creating rant videos and acting like the monkeys they like to call other people because it's been 6 months and the real issues aren't being addressed. They aren't being addressed because people on the forums don't properly articulate, define and specifically state what is their problem with the class. Instead they say "too many evades" or "too much damage". I've clearly stated multiple times on the forum what I think the issue with mirage is. That being said, the torch changes did tone down the burst ever so slightly. Judges Intervention burns or ranger torch wasn't an issue either, but they still got nerfed. Mirage can't be toned down with mere number changes alone. The issues run deeper than that. There has been a couple of in depth posts and videos of good changes to mirage during the past year, nothing is changed. And as much as I personally dislike @"Trigr.6481" , he did post a pretty decent analysis on what can be changed without gutting the entire spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jojo.6590 Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Please delete, response keeps coming up yellow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malediktus.9250 Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 Condis like confusion and torment should not even exist in a game like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jojo.6590 Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 "Knowledgeable Community"?! Here comes a good bit of irony. A little bit of homework for the "Knowledgeable Community" that uses objective reasoning. Look at each balance patch, specifically the nerfs to Mesmer (referring to Mirage too). Pay close attention to the date of each patch. Now if you go back through the forums and read each and every Mesmer QQ thread/ comment using subjective fabrications against Mesmer, you'd (hopefully) notice that each nerf to Mesmer was in response to what the "Knowledgeable Community" felt was causing Mesmer to be "OP". (Wagging finger) tsk, tsk, tsk, on Anet's end for continuing to give the mouse a cookie. The irony (a years worth, if not more ) is that the Mesmer mains have stated objectively what was/is causing Mesmer to over perform, while also correcting the subjective fabrications made by the "Knowledgeable Community". Yet the "Knowledgeable Community" goes crazy each and every time this happens, calling out people for being Mesmer mains, that they're biased towards their main class, and then the more toxic "QQ Mesmer main spotted, your opinion no longer matters." The irony is that the Mesmer mains were and STILL ARE correct and most of them are using objective reasoning to make suggestions on how to correctly balance Mesmer. Unlike the "Knowledgeable Community" that is still currently using subjective fabrications. Yes, its surprising that for a change the mains of a class for the most part are being extremely transparent with what needs to be done to balance Mesmer. Now don't let me stop you from continuing to use subjective fabrications as to why Mesmer needs to be balanced. By all means, keep complaining in this childish fashion. It won't fix anything, the "Knowledgeable Community" has been incorrect for the past year. The fact that Mesmer is still over performing is more then enough objective reasoning to support this. As a bonus bit of irony, for those that haven't been following this masquerade, there is a specific person currently here whom spear headed the bandwagon nerf for torch for Mesmer. This is not an exact quote but its close enough, this person stated that "Mirage would be perfectly balanced", they'd even be "fine with the way EM functions, once torch is nerfed." Yet they're still here, still using subjective fabrications to warrant nerfs for Mesmer. Last, for those using fairness as a false equivalence to justify their requested nerfs for Mesmer, this one is for you. Fairness does NOT equal balance. Each class functions in its own way. This lack of understanding on how a class functions and how each piece (traits, skills, etc) affects this is again why the "Knowledgeable Community" ( this is defiantly a meme now) is and has been for the most part (95% of the time) incorrect as to how to correctly balance Mesmer. To make this a bit more simple, If you need your car fixed you're going to go to a mechanic, not a veterinarian. Because the veterinarian would not understand how your car functions and what piece need fixing. Just like how the "Knowledgeable Community" still does not understand how Mesmer and in tandem Mirage functions, thus lacking an understanding of whats actually causing Mesmer to over perform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted February 6, 2019 Author Share Posted February 6, 2019 > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > sees buff teef link in signature > HMMMM shoulda clicked the link lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Order.7258 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > Perhaps the community is trying to tell you something Anet. > Ignore? > Fine.... > > [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67509/we-nerfed-mirages-in-the-recent-patch#latest](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67509/we-nerfed-mirages-in-the-recent-patch#latest "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67509/we-nerfed-mirages-in-the-recent-patch#latest") > [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67574/countless-pvp-mesmer-suggestions#latest](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67574/countless-pvp-mesmer-suggestions#latest "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67574/countless-pvp-mesmer-suggestions#latest") > [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67839/anet-the-mirage-cloak-mechanic-should-be-against-your-combat-philosophy#latest](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67839/anet-the-mirage-cloak-mechanic-should-be-against-your-combat-philosophy#latest "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67839/anet-the-mirage-cloak-mechanic-should-be-against-your-combat-philosophy#latest") > [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/66881/how-do-people-decide-that-mirage-is-op-its-not-op-a-defense-of-the-cyber-bullied-class#latest](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/66881/how-do-people-decide-that-mirage-is-op-its-not-op-a-defense-of-the-cyber-bullied-class#latest "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/66881/how-do-people-decide-that-mirage-is-op-its-not-op-a-defense-of-the-cyber-bullied-class#latest") > [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67829/the-problem-with-condi-mirage-is-not-any-one-thing-its-all-the-things#latest](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67829/the-problem-with-condi-mirage-is-not-any-one-thing-its-all-the-things#latest "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67829/the-problem-with-condi-mirage-is-not-any-one-thing-its-all-the-things#latest") > [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/57248/condi-mirage-feedback-merged#latest](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/57248/condi-mirage-feedback-merged#latest "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/57248/condi-mirage-feedback-merged#latest") > [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67729/stop-mesmer-never-ending-nerfs-rework-save-mesmer#latest](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67729/stop-mesmer-never-ending-nerfs-rework-save-mesmer#latest "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67729/stop-mesmer-never-ending-nerfs-rework-save-mesmer#latest") > [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67745/thoughts-on-power-mirage-vs-condi-mirage#latest](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67745/thoughts-on-power-mirage-vs-condi-mirage#latest "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67745/thoughts-on-power-mirage-vs-condi-mirage#latest") > [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67258/any-tips-versus-mirage#latest](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67258/any-tips-versus-mirage#latest "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67258/any-tips-versus-mirage#latest") > [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67324/condi-mirage-has-an-unfair-advantage-over-renegade#latest](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67324/condi-mirage-has-an-unfair-advantage-over-renegade#latest "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67324/condi-mirage-has-an-unfair-advantage-over-renegade#latest") > [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67238/17k-power-damage-from-confusing-images#latest](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67238/17k-power-damage-from-confusing-images#latest "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67238/17k-power-damage-from-confusing-images#latest") > [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67204/mirage#latest](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67204/mirage#latest "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67204/mirage#latest") > [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/66848/day-2-mirage-power-skill-dont-need-it#latest](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/66848/day-2-mirage-power-skill-dont-need-it#latest "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/66848/day-2-mirage-power-skill-dont-need-it#latest") > [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67267/mesmer-is-still-freecasting-by-the-way#latest](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67267/mesmer-is-still-freecasting-by-the-way#latest "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67267/mesmer-is-still-freecasting-by-the-way#latest") > [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/66961/often-seeing-4-mirages-per-game#latest](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/66961/often-seeing-4-mirages-per-game#latest "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/66961/often-seeing-4-mirages-per-game#latest") > [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67075/when-you-select-mesmer-on-character-creation#latest](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67075/when-you-select-mesmer-on-character-creation#latest "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67075/when-you-select-mesmer-on-character-creation#latest") > [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67068/mirage-reveal-removal#latest](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67068/mirage-reveal-removal#latest "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67068/mirage-reveal-removal#latest") > [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/66687/mesmer-just-got-passively-buffed-o-o#latest](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/66687/mesmer-just-got-passively-buffed-o-o#latest "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/66687/mesmer-just-got-passively-buffed-o-o#latest") > [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/66417/mirage-should-be-able-to-dodge-while-downed#latest](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/66417/mirage-should-be-able-to-dodge-while-downed#latest "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/66417/mirage-should-be-able-to-dodge-while-downed#latest") > [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/65455/mesmer-utility-and-damage#latest](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/65455/mesmer-utility-and-damage#latest "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/65455/mesmer-utility-and-damage#latest") Just consider all these threads clones and you'll have a slight taste of what dealing with mirage is like. 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Curunen.8729 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Jojo.6590" said: > "Knowledgeable Community"?! Here comes a good bit of irony. A little bit of homework for the "Knowledgeable Community" that uses objective reasoning. > > Look at each balance patch, specifically the nerfs to Mesmer (referring to Mirage too). Pay close attention to the date of each patch. Now if you go back through the forums and read each and every Mesmer QQ thread/ comment using subjective fabrications against Mesmer, you'd (hopefully) notice that each nerf to Mesmer was in response to what the "Knowledgeable Community" felt was causing Mesmer to be "OP". (Wagging finger) tsk, tsk, tsk, on Anet's end for continuing to give the mouse a cookie. > > The irony (a years worth, if not more ) is that the Mesmer mains have stated objectively what was/is causing Mesmer to over perform, while also correcting the subjective fabrications made by the "Knowledgeable Community". Yet the "Knowledgeable Community" goes crazy each and every time this happens, calling out people for being Mesmer mains, that they're biased towards their main class, and then the more toxic "QQ Mesmer main spotted, your opinion no longer matters." The irony is that the Mesmer mains were and STILL ARE correct and most of them are using objective reasoning to make suggestions on how to correctly balance Mesmer. Unlike the "Knowledgeable Community" that is still currently using subjective fabrications. Yes, its surprising that for a change the mains of a class for the most part are being extremely transparent with what needs to be done to balance Mesmer. > > Now don't let me stop you from continuing to use subjective fabrications as to why Mesmer needs to be balanced. By all means, keep complaining in this childish fashion. It won't fix anything, the "Knowledgeable Community" has been incorrect for the past year. The fact that Mesmer is still over performing is more then enough objective reasoning to support this. > > As a bonus bit of irony, for those that haven't been following this masquerade, there is a specific person currently here whom spear headed the bandwagon nerf for torch for Mesmer. This is not an exact quote but its close enough, this person stated that "Mirage would be perfectly balanced", they'd even be "fine with the way EM functions, once torch is nerfed." Yet they're still here, still using subjective fabrications to warrant nerfs for Mesmer. > > Last, for those using fairness as a false equivalence to justify their requested nerfs for Mesmer, this one is for you. Fairness does NOT equal balance. Each class functions in its own way. This lack of understanding on how a class functions and how each piece (traits, skills, etc) affects this is again why the "Knowledgeable Community" ( this is defiantly a meme now) is and has been for the most part (95% of the time) incorrect as to how to correctly balance Mesmer. To make this a bit more simple, If you need your car fixed you're going to go to a mechanic, not a veterinarian. Because the veterinarian would not understand how your car functions and what piece need fixing. Just like how the "Knowledgeable Community" still does not understand how Mesmer and in tandem Mirage functions, thus lacking an understanding of whats actually causing Mesmer to over perform. Savage, but well said. /tip hat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > > It's hard to read feedback is scattered in the 10+ threads that pop up daily. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tbh it's easier to find things in 10 different threads than to try and read a 100 page megathread. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't be so sure when almost all of those 10 threads don't offer constructive feedback and are people venting. > > > > > > > > > > > > It also clogs up the forum and finding something interesting becomes difficult since a majority everything is non constructive feedback about why a class is OP. > > > > > > > > > > Ultimately, the knowledgable portion of the community has identified 3x problems: > > > > > * Infinite Horizon > > > > > * Illusionary Ambush > > > > > * Axes of Symmetry > > > > > > > > > > Just ignore discussion that hovers outside of these 3 things. > > > > > > > > > > > > > And this is why things never get fixed properly. The knowledgeable side of the community also thought torch was a problem. Then vigor. Then blurred frenzy. Oh and. 2s stability on shatters. > > > > Still hasnt fixed the issue of condi mirage having the ability to frequently condi burst someone to oblivion has it? > > > > > > > > Maybe this knowledgeable community isn't so knowledgeable. > > > > > > > > > > Torch was an issue though. Every class got their burns toned down in terms of burst except mesmer, so it was only fair. > > > > Funny thing, I said when people complained about the torch and the burns that they weren't that big of an issue. I told them if it gets nerfed it won't solve any of the problems. Know what happened? They nerfed the stacks on the torch. It changed nothing because the torch was never the problem. > > > > Nerfing in the wrong place only leads to what happens now where you have players waving their hands in the air, creating rant videos and acting like the monkeys they like to call other people because it's been 6 months and the real issues aren't being addressed. They aren't being addressed because people on the forums don't properly articulate, define and specifically state what is their problem with the class. Instead they say "too many evades" or "too much damage". > > I've clearly stated multiple times on the forum what I think the issue with mirage is. That being said, the torch changes did tone down the burst ever so slightly. > Judges Intervention burns or ranger torch wasn't an issue either, but they still got nerfed. > > Mirage can't be toned down with mere number changes alone. The issues run deeper than that. > > There has been a couple of in depth posts and videos of good changes to mirage during the past year, nothing is changed. And as much as I personally dislike @"Trigr.6481" , he did post a pretty decent analysis on what can be changed without gutting the entire spec. There's a big difference though, core mesmer doesn't have anywhere near the burn access that core guardian or ranger has so the stacking is less of an issue as the skills main use is as a cover condi. An argument can be made mirage gets more on chaos vortex but that's very well telegraphed and you can strafe it pretty well. I said in the threads I'd be all up for removing the extra burn on the pledge so it was a simple 20% CDR as I think traits do too much. 3 stacks on the prestige with a 3s warning which is more warning than most skills and 2 stacks from the mage, hardly setting the world on fire when you consider the burn access mesmer has but w/e it's done and mirage is still and issue despite people vehemently declaring burns were the issue. Edit: OK to expand and it's not aimed at you AngelLovesFredrik. The reason why I was a bit annoyed by the burn change is that it was hard to quantify and really establish if the burns being 3 and 2 stacks was really an issue given the counterplay that exists or not. There's other factors that affect and amplify the ability to apply the burns. For example the AI clutter of 3 clones and 2-3 phantasms even assuming 1 mesmer is around makes figuring out how many and what attacks are coming challenging. So while the skill may actually be balanced it's telegraph is being masked by the other factors of the AI limit being exceeded. Likewise with the prestige, I saw plenty of damage logs where it did 3-4k with burning OMFGANETNERFTHIS!!!1 but if you were watching carefully the prestige hit on their downed body, they died to the insane torment and 6k confusion first. This is why the biggest issues need tackling first, the sheer amount of torment coming out needs reducing if not changing to bleeds or poison, a slower ramping up condition that isn't going to shut down your ability to avoid further damage through kiting. What also needs addressing is the AI clutter, this is especially a problem on chronomancer but if there's ever 2 mesmers around it's a nightmare figuring out what's going on even for experienced players (I would remove phantasms btw). Finally and this is a multi class issue, the pace of the game needs slowing down a bit, that means increasing cool downs. One of the biggest problems about mirage is they have 3 ways to detarget in a 20s cycle and that's not including stealth. If Illusionary Ambush and Axes of Symmetry were closer to core level of cool downs they would be 25-30s and 15s respectively, significantly reducing the problems of detargetting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Jojo.6590" said: > "Knowledgeable Community"?! Here comes a good bit of irony. A little bit of homework for the "Knowledgeable Community" that uses objective reasoning. > > Look at each balance patch, specifically the nerfs to Mesmer (referring to Mirage too). Pay close attention to the date of each patch. Now if you go back through the forums and read each and every Mesmer QQ thread/ comment using subjective fabrications against Mesmer, you'd (hopefully) notice that each nerf to Mesmer was in response to what the "Knowledgeable Community" felt was causing Mesmer to be "OP". (Wagging finger) tsk, tsk, tsk, on Anet's end for continuing to give the mouse a cookie. > > The irony (a years worth, if not more ) is that the Mesmer mains have stated objectively what was/is causing Mesmer to over perform, while also correcting the subjective fabrications made by the "Knowledgeable Community". Yet the "Knowledgeable Community" goes crazy each and every time this happens, calling out people for being Mesmer mains, that they're biased towards their main class, and then the more toxic "QQ Mesmer main spotted, your opinion no longer matters." The irony is that the Mesmer mains were and STILL ARE correct and most of them are using objective reasoning to make suggestions on how to correctly balance Mesmer. Unlike the "Knowledgeable Community" that is still currently using subjective fabrications. Yes, its surprising that for a change the mains of a class for the most part are being extremely transparent with what needs to be done to balance Mesmer. > > Now don't let me stop you from continuing to use subjective fabrications as to why Mesmer needs to be balanced. By all means, keep complaining in this childish fashion. It won't fix anything, the "Knowledgeable Community" has been incorrect for the past year. The fact that Mesmer is still over performing is more then enough objective reasoning to support this. > > As a bonus bit of irony, for those that haven't been following this masquerade, there is a specific person currently here whom spear headed the bandwagon nerf for torch for Mesmer. This is not an exact quote but its close enough, this person stated that "Mirage would be perfectly balanced", they'd even be "fine with the way EM functions, once torch is nerfed." Yet they're still here, still using subjective fabrications to warrant nerfs for Mesmer. > > Last, for those using fairness as a false equivalence to justify their requested nerfs for Mesmer, this one is for you. Fairness does NOT equal balance. Each class functions in its own way. This lack of understanding on how a class functions and how each piece (traits, skills, etc) affects this is again why the "Knowledgeable Community" ( this is defiantly a meme now) is and has been for the most part (95% of the time) incorrect as to how to correctly balance Mesmer. To make this a bit more simple, If you need your car fixed you're going to go to a mechanic, not a veterinarian. Because the veterinarian would not understand how your car functions and what piece need fixing. Just like how the "Knowledgeable Community" still does not understand how Mesmer and in tandem Mirage functions, thus lacking an understanding of whats actually causing Mesmer to over perform. ..I can just hear the keyboard warriors about to come into the thread with "MeSMeR MaIN, you didn't make it to ESL so you don't know what you're talking about" "My information comes from people ranked in legendary every season, so ..." OR "You wouldn't be defending your class if you played X, get good and L2P" Maybe even a combination or variation of them. +1 though. Also I found it. > > Honestly, Mirage just needs a rework to Elusive Mind and Torch 5 = fixed. Elusive Mind is still too anti-burst. > guess it wasn't fixed after all...like a lot of us said it wouldn't be. Actually looking back at the history. A lot of people thought " No condi application is ok, it's torch" Just to turn around and say " Condi application is bad and is because they dodge too much, nerf that itll be fine" Glad Anet wasted their time and resources Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Jojo's post should get fixed on top of pvp forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crann.1342 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 They are literally the Mercy mains of gw2 lmao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShark.9548 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > I haven’t looked at all of them but did you also post the mirage topics that got posted in the WvW and General Forum? > > > > > > > > > > Oh Coni Mirage is 10x more busted marginally in comparison to other classes in wvw than it is in spvp. > > > > * Food that grants +40% passive endurance regeneration > > * Energy Sigils that still grant +50% endurance on swap > > * Adventure Rune granting full +50% endurance on heal use > > * Trailblazer stats > > * PvE sigil options > > > > Usually resulting in a sheer 60+ seconds of literally complete immunity to all forms of damage, due to this endless pit of endurance regen and mirage cloaks, along with clone ambush skill usage that is far too frequent even begin to consider is anywhere in the realm in the balance. You can't 1v1 this spec in wvw. Most people can't even kill it 3v1, and it isn't because they are bad, it's because the endless well of endurance & mirage cloaks and trailblazer stats, buys plenty of time to teleport around and disengage into a keep. > > > > This isn't entirely true and certainly not 10x let alone 10x compared to other classes. All classes can (and do) run these sigils and food giving them more dodges too. > > What is truly busted in WvW small scale are rangers. > > You know how druids were extremely obnoxious with CA on 10s CD and ancient seeds on 10s CD? They're still like that in WvW so you can never kill a tanky one and it will lock you down eventually with the pet killing you. > > Soulbeast actually got buffed, moa stance is still 25s CD and Dolyak stance is still 30s CD and saw the buffs PvP received too. It's at a point where if a soulbeast is using the above sigils, food and runes they can be in an evade frame almost as much as mesmer while enjoying -54% damage taken every 30s. > > Also trailblazer stats? LUL that's like paper with the amount of damage going around atm or have you missed the people complaining about being hit for 7k+ on minstrels guardians that have 3.4k armour. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Moa_Stance > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Stance > > I will agree condition mirage is stronger in WvW, I'll agree it's a strong 1v1 spec (loses value in fights of 3+) but it is by far not alone in how strong it is where soulbeasts, warriors and holosmiths actually dominate the roaming scene in T1-T2 EU with revs coming in with duos and above. Remember revs might stacking isn't nerfed, photon forge damage is significantly higher and likewise stance nerfs weren't brought to WvW. Warriors dominate? Lol, you might see a few of them, but they are not effective solo roamers. Thief, mesmer, holo and ranger are far superior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KryTiKaL.3125 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > It's hard to read feedback is scattered in the 10+ threads that pop up daily. > > > > > > tbh it's easier to find things in 10 different threads than to try and read a 100 page megathread. > > > > > > > I wouldn't be so sure when almost all of those 10 threads don't offer constructive feedback and are people venting. > > > > It also clogs up the forum and finding something interesting becomes difficult since a majority everything is non constructive feedback about why a class is OP. > > Ultimately, the knowledgable portion of the community has identified 3x problems: > * Infinite Horizon > * Illusionary Ambush > * Axes of Symmetry > > Just ignore discussion that hovers outside of these 3 things. > Ehhh, not really no. Infinite Horizon I agree with. Illusionary Ambush I don't really have too many problems with outside of the target breaking, its not a necessary component to the skill considering they can already stealth while vomiting clones. Not a *severe* issue honestly. Axes of Symmetry is debatable. Yes it puts a lot of Confusion when it hits but Scourge spits out similar amounts of other conditions with its skills yet doesn't decimate everyone. A big part of that is that Scourge doesn't have as much of an ability to just shrug off CC. Which brings me to what one of my biggest issues with Mirage, especially Condi Mirage, is; The ability to use Mirage Cloak (aka activate dodge) even while CC'd. No this is not in reference to Elusive Mind, that is irrelevant now, I am talking about them getting CC'd and tapping the dodge button and it applies Mirage Cloak to them. *This* is what makes Condi Mirages such a pain to fight. You could be surviving and sustaining through everything they throw at you, and you get an opportunity to land a CC after waiting or timing around their defenses and then the Mirage just taps their dodge button and poof, Mirage Cloak applied. No stun break, they just evade even while knocked onto the ground or while stunned. That above is why I'd say leaving Axes of Symmetry alone *for now* is completely fine, because they need to take a look at making Mirages unable to apply Mirage Cloak to themselves while CC'd. *That* is the biggest problem, and second I'd say is Infinite Horizon, it just needs an ICD. Mirages don't like that? Tough. Silent Scope for DE needs an ICD too, so don't worry you're not alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > I haven’t looked at all of them but did you also post the mirage topics that got posted in the WvW and General Forum? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh Coni Mirage is 10x more busted marginally in comparison to other classes in wvw than it is in spvp. > > > > > > * Food that grants +40% passive endurance regeneration > > > * Energy Sigils that still grant +50% endurance on swap > > > * Adventure Rune granting full +50% endurance on heal use > > > * Trailblazer stats > > > * PvE sigil options > > > > > > Usually resulting in a sheer 60+ seconds of literally complete immunity to all forms of damage, due to this endless pit of endurance regen and mirage cloaks, along with clone ambush skill usage that is far too frequent even begin to consider is anywhere in the realm in the balance. You can't 1v1 this spec in wvw. Most people can't even kill it 3v1, and it isn't because they are bad, it's because the endless well of endurance & mirage cloaks and trailblazer stats, buys plenty of time to teleport around and disengage into a keep. > > > > > > > This isn't entirely true and certainly not 10x let alone 10x compared to other classes. All classes can (and do) run these sigils and food giving them more dodges too. > > > > What is truly busted in WvW small scale are rangers. > > > > You know how druids were extremely obnoxious with CA on 10s CD and ancient seeds on 10s CD? They're still like that in WvW so you can never kill a tanky one and it will lock you down eventually with the pet killing you. > > > > Soulbeast actually got buffed, moa stance is still 25s CD and Dolyak stance is still 30s CD and saw the buffs PvP received too. It's at a point where if a soulbeast is using the above sigils, food and runes they can be in an evade frame almost as much as mesmer while enjoying -54% damage taken every 30s. > > > > Also trailblazer stats? LUL that's like paper with the amount of damage going around atm or have you missed the people complaining about being hit for 7k+ on minstrels guardians that have 3.4k armour. > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Moa_Stance > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Stance > > > > I will agree condition mirage is stronger in WvW, I'll agree it's a strong 1v1 spec (loses value in fights of 3+) but it is by far not alone in how strong it is where soulbeasts, warriors and holosmiths actually dominate the roaming scene in T1-T2 EU with revs coming in with duos and above. Remember revs might stacking isn't nerfed, photon forge damage is significantly higher and likewise stance nerfs weren't brought to WvW. > > Warriors dominate? Lol, you might see a few of them, but they are not effective solo roamers. Thief, mesmer, holo and ranger are far superior. say the specs not just the professions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > I haven’t looked at all of them but did you also post the mirage topics that got posted in the WvW and General Forum? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh Coni Mirage is 10x more busted marginally in comparison to other classes in wvw than it is in spvp. > > > > > > * Food that grants +40% passive endurance regeneration > > > * Energy Sigils that still grant +50% endurance on swap > > > * Adventure Rune granting full +50% endurance on heal use > > > * Trailblazer stats > > > * PvE sigil options > > > > > > Usually resulting in a sheer 60+ seconds of literally complete immunity to all forms of damage, due to this endless pit of endurance regen and mirage cloaks, along with clone ambush skill usage that is far too frequent even begin to consider is anywhere in the realm in the balance. You can't 1v1 this spec in wvw. Most people can't even kill it 3v1, and it isn't because they are bad, it's because the endless well of endurance & mirage cloaks and trailblazer stats, buys plenty of time to teleport around and disengage into a keep. > > > > > > > This isn't entirely true and certainly not 10x let alone 10x compared to other classes. All classes can (and do) run these sigils and food giving them more dodges too. > > > > What is truly busted in WvW small scale are rangers. > > > > You know how druids were extremely obnoxious with CA on 10s CD and ancient seeds on 10s CD? They're still like that in WvW so you can never kill a tanky one and it will lock you down eventually with the pet killing you. > > > > Soulbeast actually got buffed, moa stance is still 25s CD and Dolyak stance is still 30s CD and saw the buffs PvP received too. It's at a point where if a soulbeast is using the above sigils, food and runes they can be in an evade frame almost as much as mesmer while enjoying -54% damage taken every 30s. > > > > Also trailblazer stats? LUL that's like paper with the amount of damage going around atm or have you missed the people complaining about being hit for 7k+ on minstrels guardians that have 3.4k armour. > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Moa_Stance > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Stance > > > > I will agree condition mirage is stronger in WvW, I'll agree it's a strong 1v1 spec (loses value in fights of 3+) but it is by far not alone in how strong it is where soulbeasts, warriors and holosmiths actually dominate the roaming scene in T1-T2 EU with revs coming in with duos and above. Remember revs might stacking isn't nerfed, photon forge damage is significantly higher and likewise stance nerfs weren't brought to WvW. > > Warriors dominate? Lol, you might see a few of them, but they are not effective solo roamers. Thief, mesmer, holo and ranger are far superior. Warriors can outrun anything that isn't soulbeast, thief, shiro rev, sword mirage and rocket boots holo, even then thief, mirage and rev will be wary of using up resources to chase a warrior as 1 stunlock and they're dead. You tend to see them in small numbers duo to 5 a lot too because of the sustain with MMR, Adrenal healing, mobility and sheer amount of CC. As I say this is my experience in T1-T2 EU, your mileage may vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanAlcedo.3281 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > I haven’t looked at all of them but did you also post the mirage topics that got posted in the WvW and General Forum? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh Coni Mirage is 10x more busted marginally in comparison to other classes in wvw than it is in spvp. > > > > > > > > * Food that grants +40% passive endurance regeneration > > > > * Energy Sigils that still grant +50% endurance on swap > > > > * Adventure Rune granting full +50% endurance on heal use > > > > * Trailblazer stats > > > > * PvE sigil options > > > > > > > > Usually resulting in a sheer 60+ seconds of literally complete immunity to all forms of damage, due to this endless pit of endurance regen and mirage cloaks, along with clone ambush skill usage that is far too frequent even begin to consider is anywhere in the realm in the balance. You can't 1v1 this spec in wvw. Most people can't even kill it 3v1, and it isn't because they are bad, it's because the endless well of endurance & mirage cloaks and trailblazer stats, buys plenty of time to teleport around and disengage into a keep. > > > > > > > > > > This isn't entirely true and certainly not 10x let alone 10x compared to other classes. All classes can (and do) run these sigils and food giving them more dodges too. > > > > > > What is truly busted in WvW small scale are rangers. > > > > > > You know how druids were extremely obnoxious with CA on 10s CD and ancient seeds on 10s CD? They're still like that in WvW so you can never kill a tanky one and it will lock you down eventually with the pet killing you. > > > > > > Soulbeast actually got buffed, moa stance is still 25s CD and Dolyak stance is still 30s CD and saw the buffs PvP received too. It's at a point where if a soulbeast is using the above sigils, food and runes they can be in an evade frame almost as much as mesmer while enjoying -54% damage taken every 30s. > > > > > > Also trailblazer stats? LUL that's like paper with the amount of damage going around atm or have you missed the people complaining about being hit for 7k+ on minstrels guardians that have 3.4k armour. > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Moa_Stance > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Stance > > > > > > I will agree condition mirage is stronger in WvW, I'll agree it's a strong 1v1 spec (loses value in fights of 3+) but it is by far not alone in how strong it is where soulbeasts, warriors and holosmiths actually dominate the roaming scene in T1-T2 EU with revs coming in with duos and above. Remember revs might stacking isn't nerfed, photon forge damage is significantly higher and likewise stance nerfs weren't brought to WvW. > > > > Warriors dominate? Lol, you might see a few of them, but they are not effective solo roamers. Thief, mesmer, holo and ranger are far superior. > > Warriors can outrun anything that isn't soulbeast, thief, shiro rev, sword mirage and rocket boots holo, even then thief, mirage and rev will be wary of using up resources to chase a warrior as 1 stunlock and they're dead. You tend to see them in small numbers duo to 5 a lot too because of the sustain with MMR, Adrenal healing, mobility and sheer amount of CC. > > As I say this is my experience in T1-T2 EU, your mileage may vary. Ok. „One stunlock = dead“ And how can a warrior archive this stunlock without help from someone else? Sure a Warrior could do that to a zergling but that doesn’t really count because zergling builds are not made for small scall fights. You should only compare roaming build against roaming build. Tell me. On equal skill level, who would win: Mirage Vs Warrior Soulbeast Vs Warrior Deadeye Vs Warrior Holo Vs Warrior Also: How on earth can a Spellbreaker do this much dmg without discipline and berserker power? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > > > > > I haven’t looked at all of them but did you also post the mirage topics that got posted in the WvW and General Forum? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh Coni Mirage is 10x more busted marginally in comparison to other classes in wvw than it is in spvp. > > > > > > > > > > * Food that grants +40% passive endurance regeneration > > > > > * Energy Sigils that still grant +50% endurance on swap > > > > > * Adventure Rune granting full +50% endurance on heal use > > > > > * Trailblazer stats > > > > > * PvE sigil options > > > > > > > > > > Usually resulting in a sheer 60+ seconds of literally complete immunity to all forms of damage, due to this endless pit of endurance regen and mirage cloaks, along with clone ambush skill usage that is far too frequent even begin to consider is anywhere in the realm in the balance. You can't 1v1 this spec in wvw. Most people can't even kill it 3v1, and it isn't because they are bad, it's because the endless well of endurance & mirage cloaks and trailblazer stats, buys plenty of time to teleport around and disengage into a keep. > > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't entirely true and certainly not 10x let alone 10x compared to other classes. All classes can (and do) run these sigils and food giving them more dodges too. > > > > > > > > What is truly busted in WvW small scale are rangers. > > > > > > > > You know how druids were extremely obnoxious with CA on 10s CD and ancient seeds on 10s CD? They're still like that in WvW so you can never kill a tanky one and it will lock you down eventually with the pet killing you. > > > > > > > > Soulbeast actually got buffed, moa stance is still 25s CD and Dolyak stance is still 30s CD and saw the buffs PvP received too. It's at a point where if a soulbeast is using the above sigils, food and runes they can be in an evade frame almost as much as mesmer while enjoying -54% damage taken every 30s. > > > > > > > > Also trailblazer stats? LUL that's like paper with the amount of damage going around atm or have you missed the people complaining about being hit for 7k+ on minstrels guardians that have 3.4k armour. > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Moa_Stance > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dolyak_Stance > > > > > > > > I will agree condition mirage is stronger in WvW, I'll agree it's a strong 1v1 spec (loses value in fights of 3+) but it is by far not alone in how strong it is where soulbeasts, warriors and holosmiths actually dominate the roaming scene in T1-T2 EU with revs coming in with duos and above. Remember revs might stacking isn't nerfed, photon forge damage is significantly higher and likewise stance nerfs weren't brought to WvW. > > > > > > Warriors dominate? Lol, you might see a few of them, but they are not effective solo roamers. Thief, mesmer, holo and ranger are far superior. > > > > Warriors can outrun anything that isn't soulbeast, thief, shiro rev, sword mirage and rocket boots holo, even then thief, mirage and rev will be wary of using up resources to chase a warrior as 1 stunlock and they're dead. You tend to see them in small numbers duo to 5 a lot too because of the sustain with MMR, Adrenal healing, mobility and sheer amount of CC. > > > > As I say this is my experience in T1-T2 EU, your mileage may vary. > > Ok. > „One stunlock = dead“ > And how can a warrior archive this stunlock without help from someone else? > > Sure a Warrior could do that to a zergling but that doesn’t really count because zergling builds are not made for small scall fights. > > You should only compare roaming build against roaming build. > > Tell me. > On equal skill level, who would win: > Mirage Vs Warrior > Soulbeast Vs Warrior > Deadeye Vs Warrior > Holo Vs Warrior > > Also: How on earth can a Spellbreaker do this much dmg without discipline and berserker power? > > You might want to check the context, I was saying those builds aren't going to chase a warrior because 1 stunlock = dead, many do not have passive save my bacon traits within their builds. Thief uses initiative and would have to use shadowstep usually it's only stunbreak to catch the warrior. Mirage will have to use blink and most of if not all it's endurance to chase the warrior leaving it low on defences. Rev would need to chase in shiro and use all it's energy, would have to legend swap on engage leaving 1 stunbreak only. Like it or not chasing a warrior for many classes is a lot more risky than it's worth because of the amount of resources needed to keep up. It's not risky for a soulbeast because they can pew pew it to death from far out of it's range while keeping up via double swoop (12s and 10s CD) and holo only can keep up with rocket boots. For holo they usually just don't bother but in the event they have rocket boots it's 1 cool down. It's about resources needed to chase vs resources you'd have in combat, the warrior is less restricted in it's use of mobility skills while generally having a low cool down on the ones it uses like whirlwind. 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