Ol Nik.2518 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > I think this is exactly it. You do not want to be told how to play your game. But it goes the other way, too. People should not be telling others that meta builds and super-optimised rotations are the only way to play. Unfortunately, people use DPS metering data to talk you down if you are not following meta. > > > Except people are not "telling" others that meta builds are superior, math does. If the same player does 18K DPS on a particular fight and 14K DPS on the same fight but running a different build, what logical or rational reason would there be to run the second build, *provided your primary motivation is to kill the boss quickly.* > The maths does not tell that meta builds are superior. Your interpretation of data does. Your interpretation is not necessarily correct. Especially if it is based on limited data and limited understanding of circumstances. I suppose that you use [arcdps](https://www.deltaconnected.com/arcdps/ "arcdps."). If you check their website carefully you will see a rather long list of limitations. They actually say that 'a 100% accurate representation of your damage or healing is not possible.' I also believe that DPS meters at present are not capable of showing users how players' actions influence a fight (DPS, monsters, etc.). Looking just at one player's DPS it is not even possible to say whether a boss will be killed slower or quicker. This 'low DPS' build might boost damage output of other players. Or it might shorten downtime for DMG dealers. Or maybe, it breaks bars and makes the encounter go smoother. Or something else that increases the team's effectiveness, but is not registered with DPS meter. There is also a possibility, that this low DPS is a result of high burst DMG built and you are looking at numbers at a wrong time. If any of these are true, your low DPS build will shorten the duration of a fight. It is actually possible that this low DPS, mediocre build is the next meta for utility or support. You just do not know it, yet. Because the only thing you could see is low DPS. P.S. Please note that it is you who started talking about the superiority of meta builds. I said that no one should be telling other people that meta builds are the only way to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > > @"Shivvies.3921" said: > > > > I honestly believe all games should have incorporated combat replay, dps meter and boon / condi uptime information. > > > > > > > > I never kicked someone for underperforming. I would kick someone who thinks they are entitled to THEIR OWN THING when it is a group activity without thinking twice about it. > > > > > > > > Cheers... > > > > > > I think GAMES should include none of those things, if you want it to be like work, then get a job...if you want to PLAY a GAME, then play the game, but don't worry about all the incidental stuff(imo, the information you get from a DPS meter is incidental). A game is something you do to relax, forget about the rat race and just have fun...I really don't care if people think doing speed clears is fun, or any other kind of content that you have to do max DPS to be taken into a group, it actually isn't from a psychological perspective. > > > > Do you like chess? Or in general a strategy game. A major part of that entire genre is minmaxing. > > > > Serious question are you trying to troll or just have a weird opinion? > > I'd argue the majority of players of chess don't minmax but rather evolve and learn. To minmax in chess is to pull up a chess AI and wade through the many possible moves and try to predict what your opponent will choose...I don't think it's fair to play chess like that. You should rely on your own experience and learned strategies and observations, not on an AI to tell you your moves for you. > > ...unless you're talking about competitive chess tournaments, which I have zero experience with so have no idea what minmaxing involves there. I'd still argue that most games of chess that occur are not professional level but rather tutorial and to build experience...or for fun. > Personally for me the term minmax implies all forms of optimalitisation. My point is that a part of these games is improving strategy etc. And I was thus giving a counterexample where perfecting play styles is considered fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > I think this is exactly it. You do not want to be told how to play your game. But it goes the other way, too. People should not be telling others that meta builds and super-optimised rotations are the only way to play. Unfortunately, people use DPS metering data to talk you down if you are not following meta. > > > > > Except people are not "telling" others that meta builds are superior, math does. If the same player does 18K DPS on a particular fight and 14K DPS on the same fight but running a different build, what logical or rational reason would there be to run the second build, *provided your primary motivation is to kill the boss quickly.* > > > The maths does not tell that meta builds are superior. Your interpretation of data does. Your interpretation is not necessarily correct. Especially if it is based on limited data and limited understanding of circumstances. > > I suppose that you use [arcdps](https://www.deltaconnected.com/arcdps/ "arcdps."). If you check their website carefully you will see a rather long list of limitations. They actually say that 'a 100% accurate representation of your damage or healing is not possible.' I also believe that DPS meters at present are not capable of showing users how players' actions influence a fight (DPS, monsters, etc.). > > Looking just at one player's DPS it is not even possible to say whether a boss will be killed slower or quicker. This 'low DPS' build might boost damage output of other players. Or it might shorten downtime for DMG dealers. Or maybe, it breaks bars and makes the encounter go smoother. Or something else that increases the team's effectiveness, but is not registered with DPS meter. There is also a possibility, that this low DPS is a result of high burst DMG built and you are looking at numbers at a wrong time. If any of these are true, your low DPS build will shorten the duration of a fight. > > It is actually possible that this low DPS, mediocre build is the next meta for utility or support. You just do not know it, yet. Because the only thing you could see is low DPS. > > P.S. Please note that it is you who started talking about the superiority of meta builds. I said that no one should be telling other people that meta builds are the only way to play. Arc does provide more then dps tho. You can see when builds have bursted, which boons where given etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khisanth.2948 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Dreamy Lu.3865" said: > DPS meters are a subject repeating again and again. As long as no acceptable solution is available, it will remain the same. I do not want to repeat same than I did in all other threads about the point already. I just tell short version of my thinking: I am one who first hated it and now love to use them, if they are used correctly. I find that: > - DPS meters are good when working together as a team to ensure optimized DPS out (agreed by all), for example in raid (not limited to). > - They are very helpful for self when learning a DPS class, to see when best to cast skills and check if we perform as should be. > > Unfortunately, aside of this - like any other tools - there are those who misuse them. Personally, if I agree that as are now, DPS meters are not perfect, I don't believe that that they are the root cause of the problem. Think about it: Generally, in or out of games, whatever tool you take, no matter how good it is, there will always be someone who will achieve to misuse it for unwanted purposes. > Recently several people were murdered with a hammer. :/ Why does society still allow such horrible tools to continue to exist? > So, it is true, as are now, the DPS meters are not ideal and we need a compromise solution, acceptable enough to satisfy both parties (those who like, those who dislike). But it is important to remain realistic: Even if we ever reach a good solution, there will still be players who will find a way around. They don't even need to find any sort of work around. They just continue being themselves. I don't see how various nasty people are going to magically turn into better people just because DPS meters aren't around. I guess it's not bad to be living in such an idyllic world, it's probably happier but it's not realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Khisanth.2948" said: > > @"Dreamy Lu.3865" said: > > DPS meters are a subject repeating again and again. As long as no acceptable solution is available, it will remain the same. I do not want to repeat same than I did in all other threads about the point already. I just tell short version of my thinking: I am one who first hated it and now love to use them, if they are used correctly. I find that: > > - DPS meters are good when working together as a team to ensure optimized DPS out (agreed by all), for example in raid (not limited to). > > - They are very helpful for self when learning a DPS class, to see when best to cast skills and check if we perform as should be. > > > > Unfortunately, aside of this - like any other tools - there are those who misuse them. Personally, if I agree that as are now, DPS meters are not perfect, I don't believe that that they are the root cause of the problem. Think about it: Generally, in or out of games, whatever tool you take, no matter how good it is, there will always be someone who will achieve to misuse it for unwanted purposes. > > > > Recently several people were murdered with a hammer. :/ > > Why does society still allow such horrible tools to continue to exist? One could point to a similar example: Why don't we have flying cars? Because people can't be trusted with them even though we have the technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"sorudo.9054" said: > the fact that a DPS meter excludes players does more harm than good. DPS meters do not exclude players. It's always players that exclude other players. If there were no dps meters, those same players would base their exclusion rules on other factors, like class used, willingness to ping gear (and the gear itself), etc. In fact, that's what was happening before. Notice, that what enables this behaviour and makes it more popular than in the early days of the game is not the meters. It's the average difficulty of the content, which is now way higher. The more difficult content, the more you see people caring about the skill level of other group members. That's because not everyone is good enough to be able to carry anyone through any content. Not everyone is _willing_ to carry people that (in their opinion) aren't contributing. And of course the more difficult content, the higher the average level of contribution required, and standarts other might want you to uphold to. > > it's a frikin game, if ppl take it so seriously that they pretty much kick ppl out of their own enjoyment is a huge problem. True, with the caveat that if the content makes it so someone's lower level of contribution can impact other people's enjoyment (by, for example, causing constant wipes, or making a relatively nice fight into a difficult and nasty one), that is also a problem. If the content is easy, noone really cares about the skill of others, because it doesn't matter. It's when it _starts_ to matter that problems appear. And the only way i see to get around that is to make sure the people with lower skill levels, and those that aren't interested in efficiency have absolutely no reason to run that difficult content where their skill/gameplay style can clash with expectations of others. Notice, how (non)existence of dps meters doesn't even factor in all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeyspit.3965 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > I think this is exactly it. You do not want to be told how to play your game. But it goes the other way, too. People should not be telling others that meta builds and super-optimised rotations are the only way to play. Unfortunately, people use DPS metering data to talk you down if you are not following meta. > > > > > Except people are not "telling" others that meta builds are superior, math does. If the same player does 18K DPS on a particular fight and 14K DPS on the same fight but running a different build, what logical or rational reason would there be to run the second build, *provided your primary motivation is to kill the boss quickly.* > > > The maths does not tell that meta builds are superior. Your interpretation of data does. Your interpretation is not necessarily correct. Especially if it is based on limited data and limited understanding of circumstances. > > I suppose that you use [arcdps](https://www.deltaconnected.com/arcdps/ "arcdps."). If you check their website carefully you will see a rather long list of limitations. They actually say that 'a 100% accurate representation of your damage or healing is not possible.' I also believe that DPS meters at present are not capable of showing users how players' actions influence a fight (DPS, monsters, etc.). > > Looking just at one player's DPS it is not even possible to say whether a boss will be killed slower or quicker. This 'low DPS' build might boost damage output of other players. Or it might shorten downtime for DMG dealers. Or maybe, it breaks bars and makes the encounter go smoother. Or something else that increases the team's effectiveness, but is not registered with DPS meter. There is also a possibility, that this low DPS is a result of high burst DMG built and you are looking at numbers at a wrong time. If any of these are true, your low DPS build will shorten the duration of a fight. > > It is actually possible that this low DPS, mediocre build is the next meta for utility or support. You just do not know it, yet. Because the only thing you could see is low DPS. > > P.S. Please note that it is you who started talking about the superiority of meta builds. I said that no one should be telling other people that meta builds are the only way to play. Actually I'm not saying it, but the vast community of elite players who are way better at this game than you or I, who have spent many more hours playing than you or I, and actually take the trouble to test builds with all the various combinations of skills - those are the people who specify the best builds, and those determinations are based on math. Now if you don't think people from Snowcrows, Disrectize, or similar guilds are capable of determining the optimal builds, not sure what else to tell you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shivvies.3921 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > I think this is exactly it. You do not want to be told how to play your game. But it goes the other way, too. People should not be telling others that meta builds and super-optimised rotations are the only way to play. Unfortunately, people use DPS metering data to talk you down if you are not following meta. > > > > > Except people are not "telling" others that meta builds are superior, math does. If the same player does 18K DPS on a particular fight and 14K DPS on the same fight but running a different build, what logical or rational reason would there be to run the second build, *provided your primary motivation is to kill the boss quickly.* > > > The maths does not tell that meta builds are superior. Your interpretation of data does. Your interpretation is not necessarily correct. Especially if it is based on limited data and limited understanding of circumstances. > > I suppose that you use [arcdps](https://www.deltaconnected.com/arcdps/ "arcdps."). If you check their website carefully you will see a rather long list of limitations. They actually say that 'a 100% accurate representation of your damage or healing is not possible.' I also believe that DPS meters at present are not capable of showing users how players' actions influence a fight (DPS, monsters, etc.). > > Looking just at one player's DPS it is not even possible to say whether a boss will be killed slower or quicker. This 'low DPS' build might boost damage output of other players. Or it might shorten downtime for DMG dealers. Or maybe, it breaks bars and makes the encounter go smoother. Or something else that increases the team's effectiveness, but is not registered with DPS meter. There is also a possibility, that this low DPS is a result of high burst DMG built and you are looking at numbers at a wrong time. If any of these are true, your low DPS build will shorten the duration of a fight. > > It is actually possible that this low DPS, mediocre build is the next meta for utility or support. You just do not know it, yet. Because the only thing you could see is low DPS. > > P.S. Please note that it is you who started talking about the superiority of meta builds. I said that no one should be telling other people that meta builds are the only way to play. I think, what you are missing is, all meta optimisations including group compositions ALL consider those aspects. Say, if someone says anything about my "low dps" as a druid, I'd laugh them off. They have ZERO idea how the game works. If someone said, my core warrior banner support was doing less than 40% of the rest of the DPS so I should git gud, I'd do again the same as they do NOT understand the meta and how much I'm adding to the group. ARCDPS by itself tells you nothing, of course. We all know that. EDIT: My point is, people will have arbitrary reasons to be shit to each other without DPS metres. I'd rather have my enjoyment (and enjoyment of many) in strategising and optimising. The toxic player will be toxic whether there is a DPS metre or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dami.5046 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Nah DPS meters are Toxic. Aion was a prime example. After every siege someone would spam the best dps per class on chat. Funny enough if the normal spammer didn't show as high up there, they didn't spam..or if someone they didn't like was top DPS they made some comment about 'must of cheated etc' You are correct in saying the Toxic player will be toxic whatever. However The Dps meter gives them a tool. I say don't let them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shivvies.3921 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 That would end the relationship between an admittedly small number of people and GW2, to be honest. Baby with the bath water and all that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Dami.5046" said: > Nah DPS meters are Toxic. Aion was a prime example. After every siege someone would spam the best dps per class on chat. Funny enough if the normal spammer didn't show as high up there, they didn't spam..or if someone they didn't like was top DPS they made some comment about 'must of cheated etc' > You are correct in saying the Toxic player will be toxic whatever. However The Dps meter gives them a tool. > I say don't let them. If they wouldn't be given a dps meter what would have happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biff.5312 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 I agree with those saying the meter is not the problem. The problem is finding people to group with who aren't fussy about that kind of thing, especially when it doesn't matter. I'd suggest looking at guilds for those who do casual group play without elitism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 I see no one has been able to prove a causative relationship between meters and so-called "toxicity." This is because meters are being used as a rationale for such behavior. A rationale is not a cause. It's an excuse. Remove the excuse offered by the meter and players will use a different excuse. I've been reading and posting on the official GW2 boards since before the game released. There have been complaints about player behavior in instanced group PvE almost as long as there has been instanced group PvE in the game. The volume of complaints was heavier before meters, tbh, though that might have to do with a larger player population back in the day. To be fair, it might also have to do with the fact that players are not excusing exclusion or complaint behavior with rationales like profession, AP, KP, etc. as much if at all. So, what's the primary cause? Selfishness. Accepting others' play preferences over one's own requires a degree of selflessness that some players are unwilling to embrace. That applies to anyone who insists that their preference ought to trump the other guy's -- whether that preference is for an optimized or a relaxed run. The best solution would be for people to take the steps needed to ensure they are grouping with like-minded players. If people did that, they'd never run into the other guys. So, why don't they? It would be inconvenient. So there's the secondary cause. To be kind, the desire for convenience may be rooted in limited playtime, which one is not prepared to use looking for such players, or waiting for the one's in one's guild or friends' list to log on. Eliminating damage meters is not going to remove either selfishness or the desire for convenience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ol Nik.2518 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Shivvies.3921" said: > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > > I think this is exactly it. You do not want to be told how to play your game. But it goes the other way, too. People should not be telling others that meta builds and super-optimised rotations are the only way to play. Unfortunately, people use DPS metering data to talk you down if you are not following meta. > > > > > > > Except people are not "telling" others that meta builds are superior, math does. If the same player does 18K DPS on a particular fight and 14K DPS on the same fight but running a different build, what logical or rational reason would there be to run the second build, *provided your primary motivation is to kill the boss quickly.* > > > > > The maths does not tell that meta builds are superior. Your interpretation of data does. Your interpretation is not necessarily correct. Especially if it is based on limited data and limited understanding of circumstances. > > > > I suppose that you use [arcdps](https://www.deltaconnected.com/arcdps/ "arcdps."). If you check their website carefully you will see a rather long list of limitations. They actually say that 'a 100% accurate representation of your damage or healing is not possible.' I also believe that DPS meters at present are not capable of showing users how players' actions influence a fight (DPS, monsters, etc.). > > > > Looking just at one player's DPS it is not even possible to say whether a boss will be killed slower or quicker. This 'low DPS' build might boost damage output of other players. Or it might shorten downtime for DMG dealers. Or maybe, it breaks bars and makes the encounter go smoother. Or something else that increases the team's effectiveness, but is not registered with DPS meter. There is also a possibility, that this low DPS is a result of high burst DMG built and you are looking at numbers at a wrong time. If any of these are true, your low DPS build will shorten the duration of a fight. > > > > It is actually possible that this low DPS, mediocre build is the next meta for utility or support. You just do not know it, yet. Because the only thing you could see is low DPS. > > > > P.S. Please note that it is you who started talking about the superiority of meta builds. I said that no one should be telling other people that meta builds are the only way to play. > > I think, what you are missing is, all meta optimisations including group compositions ALL consider those aspects. > > Say, if someone says anything about my "low dps" as a druid, I'd laugh them off. They have ZERO idea how the game works. > > If someone said, my core warrior banner support was doing less than 40% of the rest of the DPS so I should git gud, I'd do again the same as they do NOT understand the meta and how much I'm adding to the group. > > ARCDPS by itself tells you nothing, of course. We all know that. > > EDIT: My point is, people will have arbitrary reasons to be kitten to each other without DPS metres. I'd rather have my enjoyment (and enjoyment of many) in strategising and optimising. The toxic player will be toxic whether there is a DPS metre or not. I am not missing anything. My point is that low DPS **only** means nothing. So-called meta builds are optimised for specific encounters, group composition, and player level. But they are not optimised for **personal** DPS. They increase the effectiveness of the entire group. I also suspect that they are designed for static groups and may not be the best in random group situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ol Nik.2518 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > > I think this is exactly it. You do not want to be told how to play your game. But it goes the other way, too. People should not be telling others that meta builds and super-optimised rotations are the only way to play. Unfortunately, people use DPS metering data to talk you down if you are not following meta. > > > > > > > Except people are not "telling" others that meta builds are superior, math does. If the same player does 18K DPS on a particular fight and 14K DPS on the same fight but running a different build, what logical or rational reason would there be to run the second build, *provided your primary motivation is to kill the boss quickly.* > > > > > The maths does not tell that meta builds are superior. Your interpretation of data does. Your interpretation is not necessarily correct. Especially if it is based on limited data and limited understanding of circumstances. > > > > I suppose that you use [arcdps](https://www.deltaconnected.com/arcdps/ "arcdps."). If you check their website carefully you will see a rather long list of limitations. They actually say that 'a 100% accurate representation of your damage or healing is not possible.' I also believe that DPS meters at present are not capable of showing users how players' actions influence a fight (DPS, monsters, etc.). > > > > Looking just at one player's DPS it is not even possible to say whether a boss will be killed slower or quicker. This 'low DPS' build might boost damage output of other players. Or it might shorten downtime for DMG dealers. Or maybe, it breaks bars and makes the encounter go smoother. Or something else that increases the team's effectiveness, but is not registered with DPS meter. There is also a possibility, that this low DPS is a result of high burst DMG built and you are looking at numbers at a wrong time. If any of these are true, your low DPS build will shorten the duration of a fight. > > > > It is actually possible that this low DPS, mediocre build is the next meta for utility or support. You just do not know it, yet. Because the only thing you could see is low DPS. > > > > P.S. Please note that it is you who started talking about the superiority of meta builds. I said that no one should be telling other people that meta builds are the only way to play. > > Actually I'm not saying it, but the vast community of elite players who are way better at this game than you or I, who have spent many more hours playing than you or I, and actually take the trouble to test builds with all the various combinations of skills - those are the people who specify the best builds, and those determinations are based on math. > > Now if you don't think people from Snowcrows, Disrectize, or similar guilds are capable of determining the optimal builds, not sure what else to tell you. Actually, the mathematics only suggests that those builds might be the most effective in an ideal situation, i.e. pro-level players, well-known encounter mechanics, high group synergy, and excellent hardware performance. The maths does not suggest, though, that personal DPS is a decisive criterion of effectiveness for every single build (even within your own constraints: 'provided your primary motivation is to kill the boss quickly'). There is no solid statistical data, that I am aware of, that meta builds are the most effective in less than ideal conditions. But there is a high probability that they are not, because: * The majority of players are not at the required level for the highest possible performance of a build. * A lot of random groups lack synergy required to take advantage of highly optimised and specialised builds. * There is no guarantee that everybody in a random group has deep understanding of an encounter and meta strategy. * Any system with highly optimised and specialised parts with little built-in redundancies is at risk of failure if one of the parts is malfunctioning or not performing to its full potential. A less optimised, but more adaptive build may have an advantage over a meta build when it comes to random groups. If I were to conduct a systematic statistical analysis for this, I would use personal DPS, of course. However, it would just one of the many other criteria (downtime, healing, boons, breakbars, ease of use, etc.) of effectiveness. If you can collect the necessary data I would be more than happy to do all the required statistical research. And we will be able to talk with numbers at hand. As it is now, let's agree to disagree. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperadordf.2687 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Why would **personal** DPS matter when talking about **group** content lmao @"Ol Nik.2518" ps sorry if i misunderstood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deepcuts.9740 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Usually play a Druid. I am using ArcDPS. It is not about min/max dps or buffs but about people carrying their own weight. I lost count how many people I carried as a healer that had the same DPS as me. (there are more buttons to be pressed then 1 1 1 1 1 ) I lost count how many people I carried as a DPS that had very very very low boons/healing. (please stop playing support if you don't like it and have the right gear) People complaining about meters got carried hard and of course they don't like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 lets be clear, context matters, and outside raids and high CMs commenting on people's dps in other areas (lets take fractals as an example) is always obnoxious unless the group is in danger of failing - which is ofc near impossible outside CMS. When you comment about someone dps you are really being passive aggressive or just plain anti-social, because in reality no-one is really going to instantly swap to a meta build and gear set (often berserker) mid fractal run just because someone starting being rude about it. So you have to ask, why exactly are they obsessing over meters in these scenarios? Reality is, these people enjoy meter whoring or cannot adapt beyond the 'rotation' style gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOrlyFactor.8341 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 Gonna echo what others have said in that meters aren't the problem and this is coming from someone who plays open world PvE about 90% of the time. They're a tool. Like any tool, it has positive and negative uses depending on the user and how they use it. Players would just fall back to other means to exclude players if meters weren't allowed (i.e. gear check pings, AP's, titles, etc.). I guess I'm lucky in that a close friend I play with in game uses a DPS meter to observe how I'm doing and give me advice on how to improve based on my playstyle preferences (i.e. I hate using runes/sigils that proc based on weapon swapping or runes/sigils that rely on having my health above a certain threshold due to having a more aggressive playstyle so he helps me find sigils/runes that mesh more with my playstyle while also boosting my DPS if I'm playing a profession focused on DPS). Granted, this also has to do with the fact that I absolutely refuse to PUG anything unless I'm playing with my friend and guildmates. You're gonna encounter toxic situations where meters are abused more if you're PUGing (especially PUGing alone). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > @"Shivvies.3921" said: > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > > > I think this is exactly it. You do not want to be told how to play your game. But it goes the other way, too. People should not be telling others that meta builds and super-optimised rotations are the only way to play. Unfortunately, people use DPS metering data to talk you down if you are not following meta. > > > > > > > > > Except people are not "telling" others that meta builds are superior, math does. If the same player does 18K DPS on a particular fight and 14K DPS on the same fight but running a different build, what logical or rational reason would there be to run the second build, *provided your primary motivation is to kill the boss quickly.* > > > > > > > The maths does not tell that meta builds are superior. Your interpretation of data does. Your interpretation is not necessarily correct. Especially if it is based on limited data and limited understanding of circumstances. > > > > > > I suppose that you use [arcdps](https://www.deltaconnected.com/arcdps/ "arcdps."). If you check their website carefully you will see a rather long list of limitations. They actually say that 'a 100% accurate representation of your damage or healing is not possible.' I also believe that DPS meters at present are not capable of showing users how players' actions influence a fight (DPS, monsters, etc.). > > > > > > Looking just at one player's DPS it is not even possible to say whether a boss will be killed slower or quicker. This 'low DPS' build might boost damage output of other players. Or it might shorten downtime for DMG dealers. Or maybe, it breaks bars and makes the encounter go smoother. Or something else that increases the team's effectiveness, but is not registered with DPS meter. There is also a possibility, that this low DPS is a result of high burst DMG built and you are looking at numbers at a wrong time. If any of these are true, your low DPS build will shorten the duration of a fight. > > > > > > It is actually possible that this low DPS, mediocre build is the next meta for utility or support. You just do not know it, yet. Because the only thing you could see is low DPS. > > > > > > P.S. Please note that it is you who started talking about the superiority of meta builds. I said that no one should be telling other people that meta builds are the only way to play. > > > > I think, what you are missing is, all meta optimisations including group compositions ALL consider those aspects. > > > > Say, if someone says anything about my "low dps" as a druid, I'd laugh them off. They have ZERO idea how the game works. > > > > If someone said, my core warrior banner support was doing less than 40% of the rest of the DPS so I should git gud, I'd do again the same as they do NOT understand the meta and how much I'm adding to the group. > > > > ARCDPS by itself tells you nothing, of course. We all know that. > > > > EDIT: My point is, people will have arbitrary reasons to be kitten to each other without DPS metres. I'd rather have my enjoyment (and enjoyment of many) in strategising and optimising. The toxic player will be toxic whether there is a DPS metre or not. > > I am not missing anything. My point is that low DPS **only** means nothing. > So-called meta builds are optimised for specific encounters, group composition, and player level. But they are not optimised for **personal** DPS. They increase the effectiveness of the entire group. I also suspect that they are designed for static groups and may not be the best in random group situations. You can talk about burst vs. sustained damage, support builds, and the limitations of arcdps all you want. The fact is that if you're there to produce damage and your failure to do so has a sufficiently negative impact on the group, they may decide to pursue other options. Some players are toxic and they'll be disrespectful and cause problems even when your performance isn't causing any problems for the group. That's unfortunate, but to shift the argument to make it seem like nobody can tell the difference between good performance and bad is simply ridiculous. Very few players are stupid enough to look only at DPS and absolutely nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neeman Oria.7504 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 Hey, come post in my thread on my topic on your suggestions on how to improve the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanAlcedo.3281 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > DPS meters do help anyone to optimize. unless your running with 5x full support minstrel builds in fracs, you will invest something into offense. no matter how little that something is you can optimize it and DPS meter helps there. > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > The dps meter mostly used in gw2 also shows boon uptime etc so it will be usefull for everyone wo wants to optimize their playstyle > > I am sorry, but both of you still see it from a min/max point of view. It does not work for those of us who optimise their playstyles for our physical limitations. For example, I play what my son calls 'afk ranged tank summoner' builds. My priorities are exactly in this order: > > 1. minimal stress on my hands (mice and keyboards are not very friendly to carpal tunnel), aka 2 buttons combat mode (preferably, no more than one key/button for each hand) > 2. minimal movement during combat > 3. stay alive > > I will do my best to notify you of my limitations. But I am not going to change the way I play for you. Your frustration, no matter how understandable, is no reason for me to suffer pain or aggravate my condition. > > DPS meters are not only useless in this situation, but they can make things worse for everyone. The numbers show that someone is 'underperforming' despite the fact that they are doing their best to last through a physically painful and exhaustive fight. This is the equivalent of a man with a disability joining the Olympics and then QQing that he lost because his speed was masured. What you want to join are the Paralympics but with only participatin trophys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > DPS meters do help anyone to optimize. unless your running with 5x full support minstrel builds in fracs, you will invest something into offense. no matter how little that something is you can optimize it and DPS meter helps there. > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > The dps meter mostly used in gw2 also shows boon uptime etc so it will be usefull for everyone wo wants to optimize their playstyle > > > > I am sorry, but both of you still see it from a min/max point of view. It does not work for those of us who optimise their playstyles for our physical limitations. For example, I play what my son calls 'afk ranged tank summoner' builds. My priorities are exactly in this order: > > > > 1. minimal stress on my hands (mice and keyboards are not very friendly to carpal tunnel), aka 2 buttons combat mode (preferably, no more than one key/button for each hand) > > 2. minimal movement during combat > > 3. stay alive > > > > I will do my best to notify you of my limitations. But I am not going to change the way I play for you. Your frustration, no matter how understandable, is no reason for me to suffer pain or aggravate my condition. > > > > DPS meters are not only useless in this situation, but they can make things worse for everyone. The numbers show that someone is 'underperforming' despite the fact that they are doing their best to last through a physically painful and exhaustive fight. > > This is the equivalent of a man with a disability joining the Olympics and then QQing that he lost because his speed was masured. > > What you want to join are the Paralympics but with only participatin trophys. > > But are we even competing against each other? To my knowledge, the Olympics isn't a group event vs some standardized ai with participation loot at the end not is GW2 a hotly recorded historic event that gives actual cash for the highest ranked players. Oh, wait. Is esports still a thing? Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said: > > > > > @"Ol Nik.2518" said: > > > > > I think this is exactly it. You do not want to be told how to play your game. But it goes the other way, too. People should not be telling others that meta builds and super-optimised rotations are the only way to play. Unfortunately, people use DPS metering data to talk you down if you are not following meta. > > > > > > > > > Except people are not "telling" others that meta builds are superior, math does. If the same player does 18K DPS on a particular fight and 14K DPS on the same fight but running a different build, what logical or rational reason would there be to run the second build, *provided your primary motivation is to kill the boss quickly.* > > > > > > > The maths does not tell that meta builds are superior. Your interpretation of data does. Your interpretation is not necessarily correct. Especially if it is based on limited data and limited understanding of circumstances. > > > > > > I suppose that you use [arcdps](https://www.deltaconnected.com/arcdps/ "arcdps."). If you check their website carefully you will see a rather long list of limitations. They actually say that 'a 100% accurate representation of your damage or healing is not possible.' I also believe that DPS meters at present are not capable of showing users how players' actions influence a fight (DPS, monsters, etc.). > > > > > > Looking just at one player's DPS it is not even possible to say whether a boss will be killed slower or quicker. This 'low DPS' build might boost damage output of other players. Or it might shorten downtime for DMG dealers. Or maybe, it breaks bars and makes the encounter go smoother. Or something else that increases the team's effectiveness, but is not registered with DPS meter. There is also a possibility, that this low DPS is a result of high burst DMG built and you are looking at numbers at a wrong time. If any of these are true, your low DPS build will shorten the duration of a fight. > > > > > > It is actually possible that this low DPS, mediocre build is the next meta for utility or support. You just do not know it, yet. Because the only thing you could see is low DPS. > > > > > > P.S. Please note that it is you who started talking about the superiority of meta builds. I said that no one should be telling other people that meta builds are the only way to play. > > > > Actually I'm not saying it, but the vast community of elite players who are way better at this game than you or I, who have spent many more hours playing than you or I, and actually take the trouble to test builds with all the various combinations of skills - those are the people who specify the best builds, and those determinations are based on math. > > > > Now if you don't think people from Snowcrows, Disrectize, or similar guilds are capable of determining the optimal builds, not sure what else to tell you. > > Actually, the mathematics only suggests that those builds might be the most effective in an ideal situation, i.e. pro-level players, well-known encounter mechanics, high group synergy, and excellent hardware performance. The maths does not suggest, though, that personal DPS is a decisive criterion of effectiveness for every single build (even within your own constraints: 'provided your primary motivation is to kill the boss quickly'). > > There is no solid statistical data, that I am aware of, that meta builds are the most effective in less than ideal conditions. But there is a high probability that they are not, because: > * The majority of players are not at the required level for the highest possible performance of a build. > * A lot of random groups lack synergy required to take advantage of highly optimised and specialised builds. > * There is no guarantee that everybody in a random group has deep understanding of an encounter and meta strategy. > * Any system with highly optimised and specialised parts with little built-in redundancies is at risk of failure if one of the parts is malfunctioning or not performing to its full potential. > > A less optimised, but more adaptive build may have an advantage over a meta build when it comes to random groups. If I were to conduct a systematic statistical analysis for this, I would use personal DPS, of course. However, it would just one of the many other criteria (downtime, healing, boons, breakbars, ease of use, etc.) of effectiveness. If you can collect the necessary data I would be more than happy to do all the required statistical research. And we will be able to talk with numbers at hand. As it is now, let's agree to disagree. > > Cheers. > > True, and there are certainly safer compositions to run where the entire group sacrifices certain classes or builds and thus maybe maximum output under perfect conditions, in favor of say more survivability or sustain. In those cases this would have to be a group decision and most often presents its self in the following ways: - taking a different healer or support class on certain content - taking a different (easier to play) damage dealer which results in better personal damage done versus the ideal meta build if played by that player - replacing a damage dealer with another support (which most PUG groups do already by bringing 2 healers instead of the often meta 1 healer) - bringing more reliable boon support classes for specific content It all ends with 1 thing though, and this is where your argument fails: Raids are built up with certain roles in mind. Currently those roles are: - boon support (and similar like banners) - healing - damage When you are on a dps slot, you are expected to perform in a specific way that is to maximize your damage. If you die or go down, you are expected to switch to a class which will provide the maximum amount of damage you can provide. If the raid as a whole has survival issues, the composition will get altered. **Thus arcdps will give an accurate snap view of the performance at that given point in time. If your damage was bad, while other dps performed well, you are holding the raid back. It does not matter how much tankier or more durable you were or safer your build, that's not your role as a dps.** The support and healers are in charge of keeping you alive and providing support and if you can't bring performance XYZ while others can, you will get replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry.5713 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 There is little sense in banning a great tool just because it may be used in a harmful way or because some people are a little insecure about their own performance. That would be on the same level as banning all scales because some people are, again, insecure about their weight or scared that some douchebag might call them "fat". Scales may be used to see if you are allowed to sit a certain theme park ride and to ensure your own as well as everyone else's safety. The issue won't be with the scales, the issue will be with you not fitting the requirements people set for a good reason. No matter how much you go and blame the tool or the people using said tool. Neither is your doctor wrong if he tells you to lose weight to improve your own health. Some people may even need a harsh wake up call. All though, there are certainly groups now who'd love nothing more than laws to punish doctors for saying nothing more but the truth as simple truth and facts seem to be so hurtful to some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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