Mesmer Patch-Preview

[Colly.4073]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> Nobody run axe anymore when roaming,

 

Wrong.

 

[Curunen.8729]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> I agree with much of what the others are saying. Here are my suggestions:

>

> - Keep 1s super speed on Mirage Cloak to ensure that mirage doesn't lose mobility compared to the standard dodge effect.

>

> - Increase Illusionary Ambush cooldown to 30s (not 35s).

>

> - Give back the 3rd ammo count on jaunt.

>

> - Increase the speed or reduce the duration of the axe 2 animation slightly to compensate for the loss of evade time on MC.

>

> - Find a better way to handle Elusive Mind. Exhaustion makes this trait worthless.

>

>

>

 

In a similar vein, taking into account new 0.75s MC, I would like to see:

 

Speed of Sand - keep 1s for mobility (or add some unique feature to mirage cloak to allow same forward movement speed in all directions)

 

Nomad's Endurance/Critical Infusion - restore previous vigour durations.

 

Illusionary Ambush - 30s (on par with blink and SoM)

 

Jaunt - 20s cooldown per charge (but keep at 2 charges in pvp/wvw)

 

Axe 2 - add 0.5s evade frame to the initial part of the animation (end of animation is vulnerable to damage/interrupt)

 

Axe 3 - remove evade frame to compensate for giving to axe 2 (more in line with Mirage Advance which doesn't have an evade frame)

 

Elusive Mind - just temporarily disable the stunbreak portion entirely until you think of a new solution for this trait. Leave it as only one condi cleanse per dodge so it is at least useable and not shooting yourself in the foot... Surely this can be done before Tuesday - just disable/turn off the stunbreak part? I'd rather have half a trait that works than a whole trait that hurts.

 

-------------------

I believe none of those are excessive/asking a lot, and from my layman perspective should be possible to make happen very quickly - even before the patch drops as there are still a few days (minus weekend).

[Xaylin.1860]

Not a great patch for Mesmers. :s Happy about the Engineer stuff, though.

 

Not gonna talk about SoI and related stuff. Tired of it. But some points that annoyed me and I disagree with:

 

* **MC and SoS** - Okay defense-wise. But find it to be a no-no to have an elite class-mechanic to be worse than baseline doge (mobility).

* **Danger Time** - Probably number-wise in line with the nerfed RI (Guardian) but harder to maintain solo. Just split it (PvE/PvP).

* **Cry of Pain** - Make it a Major already (s. Shatter Storm). It is an aweful Minor for too many builds which could utilize Illusions.

[Turk.5460]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> Just shows that the balance team doesn't have a clue with mesmer. Stuff like this is why I no longer have fun playing the class. Instead of addressing any root balance issues, they just continuously nerf over and over, but since those root issues are never addressed, the nerfs are never enough

 

There are plenty of skilled players in WvW running core Mesmer and Chronomancer. Is Mirage required for you to have fun with Mesmer?

[Odik.4587]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > I agree with much of what the others are saying. Here are my suggestions:

> >

> > - Keep 1s super speed on Mirage Cloak to ensure that mirage doesn't lose mobility compared to the standard dodge effect.

> >

> > - Increase Illusionary Ambush cooldown to 30s (not 35s).

> >

> > - Give back the 3rd ammo count on jaunt.

> >

> > - Increase the speed or reduce the duration of the axe 2 animation slightly to compensate for the loss of evade time on MC.

> >

> > - Find a better way to handle Elusive Mind. Exhaustion makes this trait worthless.

> >

> >

> >

>

> In a similar vein, taking into account new 0.75s MC, I would like to see:

>

> Speed of Sand - keep 1s for mobility (or add some unique feature to mirage cloak to allow same forward movement speed in all directions)

>

> Nomad's Endurance/Critical Infusion - restore previous vigour durations.

>

> Illusionary Ambush - 30s (on par with blink and SoM)

>

> Jaunt - 20s cooldown per charge (but keep at 2 charges in pvp/wvw)

>

> Axe 2 - rework?

> Axe 3 -return power damage plx?

> Mirror trait - while mirage elite equipped 5s icd.

>Scepter 2 cd increased to 8s. Scepter 3 damage per strike decreased by 15% . Ideally - REWORK

> !IMPORTANT! Every ambush cast time should be 0.7s because unable to cover your own ambush (even more its not even possible because of internet lag/delay).

> Elusive Mind - just temporarily disable the stunbreak portion entirely until you think of a new solution for this trait. Leave it as only one condi cleanse per dodge so it is at least useable and not shooting yourself in the foot... Surely this can be done before Tuesday - just disable/turn off the stunbreak part? I'd rather have half a trait that works than a whole trait that hurts.

>

> -------------------

> I believe none of those are excessive/asking a lot, and from my layman perspective should be possible to make happen very quickly - even before the patch drops as there are still a few days (minus weekend).

 

FTFY .Dont thank me ;)

[Odik.4587]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > Just shows that the balance team doesn't have a clue with mesmer. Stuff like this is why I no longer have fun playing the class. Instead of addressing any root balance issues, they just continuously nerf over and over, but since those root issues are never addressed, the nerfs are never enough

>

> There are plenty of skilled players in WvW running core Mesmer and Chronomancer. Is Mirage required for you to have fun with Mesmer?

 

I'm not fond of a double posts... But wtf ?

Yesterday 3 hours straight was on wvw. Unkillable soulbeasts 1vs5 unhindered running away ezpz half of the map while maintain permastab and truckload of sh*t boons.

Not even single core mesmer or chrono . A bit of condi mesmers (that free to kill and unable to disengage even from 1x2) and 1-2 power mesmers that sword ambush away for their lives . Way more permastealth DE and pewpew sick em SLB.

Where the fok are these CORE mesmers?Chronomancers ?

[Solori.6025]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > Just shows that the balance team doesn't have a clue with mesmer. Stuff like this is why I no longer have fun playing the class. Instead of addressing any root balance issues, they just continuously nerf over and over, but since those root issues are never addressed, the nerfs are never enough

> >

> > There are plenty of skilled players in WvW running core Mesmer and Chronomancer. Is Mirage required for you to have fun with Mesmer?

>

> I'm not fond of a double posts... But kitten ?

> Yesterday 3 hours straight was on wvw. Unkillable soulbeasts 1vs5 unhindered running away ezpz half of the map while maintain permastab and truckload of kitten boons.

> Not even single core mesmer or chrono . A bit of condi mesmers (that free to kill and unable to disengage even from 1x2) and 1-2 power mesmers that sword ambush away for their lives . Way more permastealth DE and pewpew sick em SLB.

> Where the ------ are these CORE mesmers?Chronomancers

 

Im wondering where the core are as well.

Only time I see core or chrono when I'm roaming is when they are with a group of 7+.

Are you roaming in off hours? Cause prime time core and chrono solo roaming is 0 from my experience.

 

[Turk.5460]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > Just shows that the balance team doesn't have a clue with mesmer. Stuff like this is why I no longer have fun playing the class. Instead of addressing any root balance issues, they just continuously nerf over and over, but since those root issues are never addressed, the nerfs are never enough

> >

> > There are plenty of skilled players in WvW running core Mesmer and Chronomancer. Is Mirage required for you to have fun with Mesmer?

>

> I'm not fond of a double posts... But kitten ?

> Yesterday 3 hours straight was on wvw. Unkillable soulbeasts 1vs5 unhindered running away ezpz half of the map while maintain permastab and truckload of kitten boons.

> Not even single core mesmer or chrono . A bit of condi mesmers (that free to kill and unable to disengage even from 1x2) and 1-2 power mesmers that sword ambush away for their lives . Way more permastealth DE and pewpew sick em SLB.

> Where the fok are these CORE mesmers?Chronomancers ?

 

Plenty of people can play them, and have played them, and continue to play them. They're not all on the same server, or playing at the same time. Same with things like Scrapper, Core Ranger, Core Ele, Tempest, DH, Berserker, Reaper, Core Necro. I see players performing very well on all of those - this does not mean I see teems of them flooding the borderlands. They have practice and are skilled and win against equally skilled opponents. In fact, the *only* thing I don't see any skilled players roaming on is core Engi. The reason you don't see the non-meta builds as often as things like Perma Stealth DE, Soulbeast, Holo, and Mirage is because those things are incredibly easy to perform well with. Mirage was never a class that had a remotely high skill floor - the people who are *actually* skilled will without a doubt continue to perform very well on Mirage regardless of the skill floor raising a bit.

 

I'm sorry you incorrectly perceived the message in my post?

[Klypto.1703]

Now that they have broken most of every pof spec for competitive game play spirit weapons are now the meta against mesmers.

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > I agree with much of what the others are saying. Here are my suggestions:

> > >

> > > - Keep 1s super speed on Mirage Cloak to ensure that mirage doesn't lose mobility compared to the standard dodge effect.

> > >

> > > - Increase Illusionary Ambush cooldown to 30s (not 35s).

> > >

> > > - Give back the 3rd ammo count on jaunt.

> > >

> > > - Increase the speed or reduce the duration of the axe 2 animation slightly to compensate for the loss of evade time on MC.

> > >

> > > - Find a better way to handle Elusive Mind. Exhaustion makes this trait worthless.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > In a similar vein, taking into account new 0.75s MC, I would like to see:

> >

> > Speed of Sand - keep 1s for mobility (or add some unique feature to mirage cloak to allow same forward movement speed in all directions)

> >

> > Nomad's Endurance/Critical Infusion - restore previous vigour durations.

> >

> > Illusionary Ambush - 30s (on par with blink and SoM)

> >

> > Jaunt - 20s cooldown per charge (but keep at 2 charges in pvp/wvw)

> >

> > -----------------

> Axe 2 - rework? // _hmm I like axe 2 animation as it is, so prefer not to change how it works aside from quality of life adjustments as mentioned - eg moving evade frame from axe 3 to axe 2 with reduced duration (0.5s down from 0.75s)._

> Axe 3 -return power damage plx? // _yeah this would be good, it's already laughable how easily it can be dodged or avoided._

> Mirror trait - while mirage elite equipped 5s icd. // _would prefer a different solution - not a fan of simply increasing the ICD. Rather shave the mirror duration slightly instead of increased icd, or one of the different proposed solutions that have been floating around. Also given mirage cloak reduction to 0.75s I don't think it's going to be as big a deal as if used on core or chrono dodge, so maybe this should be left alone until further observation following mirage cloak nerf._

> Scepter 2 cd increased to 8s. Scepter 3 damage per strike decreased by 15% . Ideally - REWORK // _yeah for sure, both of these skills are stupid and powercrept while scepter still remains a clunky weapon... happy for any changes here._

> !IMPORTANT! Every ambush cast time should be 0.7s because unable to cover your own ambush (even more its not even possible because of internet lag/delay). // _ hell yes, especially Staff ambush which is going to be painful following MC duration reduction. That stuff needs to cast faster._

> > Elusive Mind - just temporarily disable the stunbreak portion entirely until you think of a new solution for this trait. Leave it as only one condi cleanse per dodge so it is at least useable and not shooting yourself in the foot... Surely this can be done before Tuesday - just disable/turn off the stunbreak part? I'd rather have half a trait that works than a whole trait that hurts.

> >

> > -------------------

> > I believe none of those are excessive/asking a lot, and from my layman perspective should be possible to make happen very quickly - even before the patch drops as there are still a few days (minus weekend).

>

> FTFY .Dont thank me ;)

 

Thanks anyway. :) Put some responses in there, some I agree, some I don't. But whatever the case it's clear more stuff is needed, hopefully some other changes can make it into this patch rather than waiting another 3+ months for anything else... :/ I seriously hope the restructuring at Anet will allow for more frequent balance releases from now on.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> Plenty of people can play them, and have played them, and continue to play them.

This is true. The only problem is that unlike mirage, they dont really compete with superior PoF generation roaming specs (holos, spellbreakers, soulbeasts, dead... wait, its still daredevils lol, other mirages etc). I dont even see a vanilla mesmer as a threat when roaming on my mirage. Sometimes they get lucky, sometimes they got skills but no... there's a reason most people run PoF specs.

[Odik.4587]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > > Just shows that the balance team doesn't have a clue with mesmer. Stuff like this is why I no longer have fun playing the class. Instead of addressing any root balance issues, they just continuously nerf over and over, but since those root issues are never addressed, the nerfs are never enough

> > >

> > > There are plenty of skilled players in WvW running core Mesmer and Chronomancer. Is Mirage required for you to have fun with Mesmer?

> >

> > I'm not fond of a double posts... But kitten ?

> > Yesterday 3 hours straight was on wvw. Unkillable soulbeasts 1vs5 unhindered running away ezpz half of the map while maintain permastab and truckload of kitten boons.

> > Not even single core mesmer or chrono . A bit of condi mesmers (that free to kill and unable to disengage even from 1x2) and 1-2 power mesmers that sword ambush away for their lives . Way more permastealth DE and pewpew sick em SLB.

> > Where the fok are these CORE mesmers?Chronomancers ?

>

> Plenty of people can play them, and have played them, and continue to play them. They're not all on the same server, or playing at the same time. Same with things like Scrapper, Core Ranger, Core Ele, Tempest, DH, Berserker, Reaper, Core Necro. I see players performing very well on all of those - this does not mean I see teems of them flooding the borderlands. They have practice and are skilled and win against equally skilled opponents. In fact, the *only* thing I don't see any skilled players roaming on is core Engi. The reason you don't see the non-meta builds as often as things like Perma Stealth DE, Soulbeast, Holo, and Mirage is because those things are incredibly easy to perform well with. Mirage was never a class that had a remotely high skill floor - the people who are *actually* skilled will without a doubt continue to perform very well on Mirage regardless of the skill floor raising a bit.

>

> I'm sorry you incorrectly perceived the message in my post?

No , you didnt understand his post . (I dont even need to explain it ,just read it again?)

I'm making emphasis on CORE mesmer which is simply inferior to chrono/mirage in every possible way, there is not even single reason to play core instead of mirage/chrono. 'non' meta builds are underperforming compared to other class/specs/builds = not played

People can have fun with w/e they want but when anet endlessly nerf chrono and make it unfun and frustrating to play AND make renegade/fb to be way more efficent, no wonder most mesmers just quit

[Kylden Ar.3724]

At this point they should just change EM so that it turns MC into a short range blink in the direction you dodge that enables an ambush attack. Done.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > Just shows that the balance team doesn't have a clue with mesmer. Stuff like this is why I no longer have fun playing the class. Instead of addressing any root balance issues, they just continuously nerf over and over, but since those root issues are never addressed, the nerfs are never enough

>

> There are plenty of skilled players in WvW running core Mesmer and Chronomancer. Is Mirage required for you to have fun with Mesmer?

 

This completely misses the point I was making, by an astonishing amount. My comment had nothing to do with miage vs chrono vs core mesmer. Its about how ANet doesn't understand why builds on mesmer are overpowered, and end up nerfing the wrong thing. But since they never address the root issue, we just keep getting nerf after nerf, after nerf. SoI, Mirage cloak, Elusive Mind (and the new change to exhaustion just makes it even worse now), and almost everything else about mesmer keeps getting nerfed, without the base issues that make these components overpowered ever being addressed. And then to make it even more insulting, confusion continues to be nerfed on mesmer for no real reason

[Curunen.8729]

In light of base mirage cloak revert to 0.75s, regarding Elusive Mind - how about the following change:

- remove stunbreak entirely

- replace with "increase mirage cloak duration from all sources by 33%"

 

That could provide a meaningful choice at least between IH and EM (can deal with DC separately) in that IH would have shorter cloak but share with illusions (plus ambush) and EM would have longer cloak but selfish on player (plus condi cleanse).

 

[Quadox.7834]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> In light of base mirage cloak revert to 0.75s, regarding Elusive Mind - how about the following change:

> - remove stunbreak entirely

> - replace with "increase mirage cloak duration from all sources by 33%"

>

> That could provide a meaningful choice at least between IH and EM (can deal with DC separately) in that IH would have shorter cloak but share with illusions (plus ambush) and EM would have longer cloak but selfish on player (plus condi cleanse).

>

 

I don't like that because timing attacks after dodges would be inconsistent and very annoying

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > In light of base mirage cloak revert to 0.75s, regarding Elusive Mind - how about the following change:

> > - remove stunbreak entirely

> > - replace with "increase mirage cloak duration from all sources by 33%"

> >

> > That could provide a meaningful choice at least between IH and EM (can deal with DC separately) in that IH would have shorter cloak but share with illusions (plus ambush) and EM would have longer cloak but selfish on player (plus condi cleanse).

> >

>

> I don't like that because timing attacks after dodges would be inconsistent and very annoying

 

Inconsistent only between different players - would be consistent for a single player/opponent and in terms of IH/EM immediately recognisable if seeing clone ambush or not.

 

One issue would be what happens to Dune Cloak and potential confusion between that and Elusive Mind if it were to behave like this, not being able to easily tell which is being used from the outset

 

Another issue would be 2+ enemy mirages, one using IH one using EM, etc - could be pretty confusing if not identifying which player is which in terms of mc duration.

 

So yes I can appreciate if it would be annoying - probably more the lack in change of the audio effect rather than the visual effect - and so while still being in support of this change can certainly accept reasons why it likely won't or shouldn't happen.

[Quadox.7834]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > > In light of base mirage cloak revert to 0.75s, regarding Elusive Mind - how about the following change:

> > > - remove stunbreak entirely

> > > - replace with "increase mirage cloak duration from all sources by 33%"

> > >

> > > That could provide a meaningful choice at least between IH and EM (can deal with DC separately) in that IH would have shorter cloak but share with illusions (plus ambush) and EM would have longer cloak but selfish on player (plus condi cleanse).

> > >

> >

> > I don't like that because timing attacks after dodges would be inconsistent and very annoying

>

> Inconsistent only between different players - would be consistent for a single player/opponent and in terms of IH/EM immediately recognisable if seeing clone ambush or not.

>

> One issue would be what happens to Dune Cloak and potential confusion between that and Elusive Mind if it were to behave like this, not being able to easily tell which is being used from the outset

>

> Another issue would be 2+ enemy mirages, one using IH one using EM, etc - could be pretty confusing if not identifying which player is which in terms of mc duration.

>

> So yes I can appreciate if it would be annoying - probably more the lack in change of the audio effect rather than the visual effect - and so while still being in support of this change can certainly accept reasons why it likely won't or shouldn't happen.

 

This is also a reason why I want MC to be 0.75 seconds. Muscle memory for timing attack after dodge.

[TwiceDead.1963]

Yeah, Mesmers got nerfed. Gonna take a wild guess and say you're still going to be a solid pick for every gamemode. New players will probably struggle with the changes. Good players probably won't.

[Heartpains.7312]

Those who didn't struggle in game will be struggling in reality from mental issues soon, because nerfs are never enough, and anet will always nerf Mesmer "randomly" with random numbers/changes, and from time to time buff condi Mesmer "randomly" again, and when condi is OP power have to suffer with it in their eyes.

[Abelisk.4527]

0.75s MC is a huge nerf. The remaining .25s was a blanket cover for nearly all skillcasts. Not to mention it evaded AoEs and attacks in general. Mirage will be having more trouble. Glad to see Axe being put back on the shelf--will make WvW and PvP more manageable now.

 

Elusive Mind... it's honestly shocking how good this used to be compared to its current state. Is it even a GM trait anymore? Lol. Dune Cloak is also very weak, hope it improves in the future.

 

Mirror Images could've used a shave and all would be well.

 

Noobs playing these builds will have a harder time due to the face-target change.

[Odik.4587]

> @"Abelisk.4527" said:

> 0.75s MC is a huge nerf. The remaining .25s was a blanket cover for nearly all skillcasts. Not to mention it evaded AoEs and attacks in general. Mirage will be having more trouble. Glad to see Axe being put back on the shelf--will make WvW and PvP more manageable now.

>

> Elusive Mind... it's honestly shocking how good this used to be compared to its current state. Is it even a GM trait anymore? Lol. Dune Cloak is also very weak, hope it improves in the future.

>

> Mirror Images could've used a shave and all would be well.

>

> Noobs playing these builds will have a harder time due to the face-target change.

 

Either mirage will die entirely ...or... chaos will still carry dead elite spec.

Anything else will be borderline unplayble .

Hail scepter demolisher chrono eksde

[Xaylin.1860]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> In light of base mirage cloak revert to 0.75s, regarding Elusive Mind - how about the following change:

> - remove stunbreak entirely

> - replace with "increase mirage cloak duration from all sources by 33%"

>

> That could provide a meaningful choice at least between IH and EM (can deal with DC separately) in that IH would have shorter cloak but share with illusions (plus ambush) and EM would have longer cloak but selfish on player (plus condi cleanse).

>

 

Why not additionally merge it with Mirage Mantle and instead add a none-dodge condition removal to the Master tier?

 

Nice side effect: All GM traits would have an 'on Mirage Cloak' effect comparable to DD.

 

Still hate Speed of Sand and feel it should be baseline, though. Mirage is just full of underwhelming traits. :s

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Xaylin.1860" said:

> > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > In light of base mirage cloak revert to 0.75s, regarding Elusive Mind - how about the following change:

> > - remove stunbreak entirely

> > - replace with "increase mirage cloak duration from all sources by 33%"

> >

> > That could provide a meaningful choice at least between IH and EM (can deal with DC separately) in that IH would have shorter cloak but share with illusions (plus ambush) and EM would have longer cloak but selfish on player (plus condi cleanse).

> >

>

> Why not additionally merge it with Mirage Mantle and instead add a none-dodge condition removal to the Master tier?

>

> Nice side effect: All GM traits would have an 'on Mirage Cloak' effect comparable to DD.

>

> Still hate Speed of Sand and feel it should be baseline, though. Mirage is just full of underwhelming traits. :s

 

From personal bias perspective I'd rather not have condition removal trait be mutually exclusive with Axe trait - it's bad enough with Warden's Feedback and Restorative Illusions.

 

Oh do you mean additional condi removal, so EM still has it on dodge? Sorry if I was mistaken - Hmm, that would need to be carefully balanced if so otherwise could have so much to trivialise condis given how much removal EM can generate in its current state. Not sure what kind of trait could be there.

 

And yeah SoS is completely stupid - it's like saying "here's half your class mechanic" in one minor trait and "here's your other half" in another minor trait - when they should be in the same first trait. Especially once it becomes 0.75s, such a pathetic minor trait. I still recall unlocking mirage and just how bad it is with only mirage cloak but no superspeed unlocked. xD

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> And yeah SoS is completely stupid - it's like saying "here's half your class mechanic" in one minor trait and "here's your other half" in another minor trait - when they should be in the same first trait.

 

That's a good point. With your permission will add it into the other thread :)