Quadox.7834 Posted March 1, 2019 Author Share Posted March 1, 2019 > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > Until z-axis teleport is nerfed and some compensation happens here and there, Rampage can't be nerfed. That's just being unreasonable. > > > > Comapared to how strong elites generally are in this game (with a few outliers), rampage is very strong. Gw2 is a game with weak elites unlike for example overwatch. For many/most builds, having a 4th utility would be stronger than having an elite in this game. > > And it takes a 30 second cd (blink, invuln, blind, stealth, etc) to counter a 72 second elite. Rampage is NECESSARY, it has to be strong as is. Even tho everything else is getting nerfed. It gives core warrior a chance, it gives spell breaker even berserker a chance. > > You're taking away the only Niche Warrior can fill: a DPS that can somewhat hold a point > > I don't mind rampage getting nerfed, but nerf braindead ledge teleports first because THAT in itself is not really balanced, even tho it "creates" an identity. So you want warrior to be extremely strong for 10 seconds, then useless for 90 seconds while waiting for the CD? That seems like a terrible way to balance Warrior. A better way is to reduce the power of the other sidenoders (mainly Slb, Chrono, Mirage). Remember that it was not long age Spellbreaker was meta. Teleports on Z-axis and through LoS can be looked at but this is much more long-term. If you want to laugh at actual bad elites then look at Fiery Greatsword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTruth.6813 Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 No, what I'm saying is current Warrior and current rampage doesn't need to be touched/nerfed at all IF z-axis isn't getting touched anytime soon. And it depends on the nerf that will happen for other classes. Because from what it looks like, ANET won't really be adjusting classes to the point where rampage "deserves" to be nerfed. The only legit time that I can think off for rampage to be nerfed is when z-axis teleports is finally out of sPvP. Rampage doesn't make you "extremely strong" for 10 seconds btw, and Warrior by itself CAN be tolerable if, as you said, other classes get toned down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yannir.4132 Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > No, what I'm saying is current Warrior and current rampage doesn't need to be touched/nerfed at all IF z-axis isn't getting touched anytime soon. And it depends on the nerf that will happen for other classes. Because from what it looks like, ANET won't really be adjusting classes to the point where rampage "deserves" to be nerfed. The only legit time that I can think off for rampage to be nerfed is when z-axis teleports is finally out of sPvP. > > Rampage doesn't make you "extremely strong" for 10 seconds btw, and Warrior by itself CAN be tolerable if, as you said, other classes get toned down. For the record, I agree with this. Rampage is fine. Every class has the tools to deal with it. At most, I'd look at a small cd increase. > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > I'd look into having an ICD for the Distortion of this trait. > Bad idea with ICD in my opinion, will make it very clunky and weird. There is probably a better solution. Maybe that's true, Mesmer already plays the UI a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 1, 2019 Author Share Posted March 1, 2019 > @"Yannir.4132" said: > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > No, what I'm saying is current Warrior and current rampage doesn't need to be touched/nerfed at all IF z-axis isn't getting touched anytime soon. And it depends on the nerf that will happen for other classes. Because from what it looks like, ANET won't really be adjusting classes to the point where rampage "deserves" to be nerfed. The only legit time that I can think off for rampage to be nerfed is when z-axis teleports is finally out of sPvP. > > > > Rampage doesn't make you "extremely strong" for 10 seconds btw, and Warrior by itself CAN be tolerable if, as you said, other classes get toned down. > > For the record, I agree with this. Rampage is fine. Every class has the tools to deal with it. > At most, I'd look at a small cd increase. Every meta build with permanent protection and very high evasion/invulnerability/stability uptime can deal with it*. It does surprise me that you find Rampage fine after the cooldown decrease by 50% in March. My worry/guess is that as soon as Spellbreaker becomes meta again due to nerfs to others, Rampage will "become a problem". One problem is that it is very strong on certain maps (e.g. Coliseum) but weaker on others (e.g. Forest). But if you both don't feel that rampage is high priority I will remove it from the list. Also appreciated if others could comment on this! > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > I'd look into having an ICD for the Distortion of this trait. > > Bad idea with ICD in my opinion, will make it very clunky and weird. There is probably a better solution. > > Maybe that's true, Mesmer already plays the UI a lot. It would be very annoying when you have more than one signet equipped. One possibility is giving the distortion as a bonus to just one of the signets (Signet of Ether or Signet of Inspiration possibly) rather than all of them. I will let Anet figure what they want to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTruth.6813 Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Seriously, if it's hard to "press 1 button" and counter rampage, then there is a problem. Even casuals should be able to understand how to counter a non-instant cast class in 2019. Rampage becoming a problem is legit bottom percentile skill level problems. Specific circumstances would legit have to happen for rampage to be nerfed like I said (z-axis garbage teleport that isn't really high skill cap and is borderline just gamebreaking privilege). Also, for the love of god please do not nerf the damage by too much, if the overall damage is getting nerfed. Because people have complained about the damage pool and some people not realizing that the damage pool currently is VERY IMPORTANT (because it gives you a chance vs. evade spammers, people actually die in a timely manner, and it gives that back and forth feeling for when it counts) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 1, 2019 Author Share Posted March 1, 2019 > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > Seriously, if it's hard to "press 1 button" and counter rampage, then there is a problem. Even casuals should be able to understand how to counter a non-instant cast class in 2019. Rampage becoming a problem is legit bottom percentile skill level problems. Specific circumstances would legit have to happen for rampage to be nerfed like I said (z-axis garbage teleport that isn't really high skill cap and is borderline just gamebreaking privilege). > > Also, for the love of god please do not nerf the damage by too much, if the overall damage is getting nerfed. Because people have complained about the damage pool and some people not realizing that the damage pool currently is VERY IMPORTANT (because it gives you a chance vs. evade spammers, people actually die in a timely manner, and it gives that back and forth feeling for when it counts) "Seriously, if it's hard to "press 1 button" and counter rampage, then there is a problem." Not that simple when it is a teamfight for example. Also, depends on which map. But removed from the list for now. Don't know why you are worried about nerfing damage, this list is mostly sustain nerfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTruth.6813 Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Was just putting it out there, incase someone brings it up or maybe ANET will care/glance through. Just don't want ANET to be repeating history is all because MAYBE they have better staff now. In team fights, rampage is melee so the amount of AoE blind spam and weakness that gets thrown there is lolz, the same argument applies against it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 1, 2019 Author Share Posted March 1, 2019 > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > Was just putting it out there, incase someone brings it up or maybe ANET will care/glance through. Just don't want ANET to be repeating history is all because MAYBE they have better staff now. > > In team fights, rampage is melee so the amount of AoE blind spam and weakness that gets thrown there is lolz, the same argument applies against it as well. You have resistance for that, but let's end discussion about Rampage for now unless someone else has input. Also, would be good if others can comment so the list can be improved/cut down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 1, 2019 Author Share Posted March 1, 2019 Added warrior section and removed some superfluous points for simplicity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 I like how you're already proposing nerfs to sneak gyro and we haven't even seen its new implementation yet. Nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 1, 2019 Author Share Posted March 1, 2019 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > I like how you're already proposing nerfs to sneak gyro and we haven't even seen its new implementation yet. Nice! There have been many instances where they make something completely broken and it takes months to fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > I like how you're already proposing nerfs to sneak gyro and we haven't even seen its new implementation yet. Nice! > > There have been many instances where they make something completely broken and it takes months to fix. So let's break it before we know what it does? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ario.8964 Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > I like how you're already proposing nerfs to sneak gyro and we haven't even seen its new implementation yet. Nice! > > > > There have been many instances where they make something completely broken and it takes months to fix. > > So let's break it before we know what it does? Nothing wrong with expressing possible concerns for things overperforming since I'm pretty sure nobody here likes it when the game goes through cycles of "this is the most op spec, play it". I agree, we should be careful about going straight for nerf, but it's reasonable to voice concerns as it gives anet an idea of something they could have possibly overlooked or it gives them something to watch and see if it indeed overperforms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 > @"Ario.8964" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > I like how you're already proposing nerfs to sneak gyro and we haven't even seen its new implementation yet. Nice! > > > > > > There have been many instances where they make something completely broken and it takes months to fix. > > > > So let's break it before we know what it does? > > Nothing wrong with expressing possible concerns for things overperforming since I'm pretty sure nobody here likes it when the game goes through cycles of "this is the most op spec, play it". I agree, we should be careful about going straight for nerf, but it's reasonable to voice concerns as it gives anet an idea of something they could have possibly overlooked or it gives them something to watch and see if it indeed overperforms. Yeah, but the lack of confidence in this kind of statement is staggering. Usually when things become OP, it's because there were certain interactions between gear, traits, or skills that the devs didn't anticipate. Individual skill changes alone rarely result in something becoming OP, and they are well-aware that drastically reworking something can cause it to become unbalanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroth.4217 Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"Yannir.4132" said: > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > No, what I'm saying is current Warrior and current rampage doesn't need to be touched/nerfed at all IF z-axis isn't getting touched anytime soon. And it depends on the nerf that will happen for other classes. Because from what it looks like, ANET won't really be adjusting classes to the point where rampage "deserves" to be nerfed. The only legit time that I can think off for rampage to be nerfed is when z-axis teleports is finally out of sPvP. > > > > > > Rampage doesn't make you "extremely strong" for 10 seconds btw, and Warrior by itself CAN be tolerable if, as you said, other classes get toned down. > > > > For the record, I agree with this. Rampage is fine. Every class has the tools to deal with it. > > At most, I'd look at a small cd increase. > Every meta build with permanent protection and very high evasion/invulnerability/stability uptime can deal with it*. It does surprise me that you find Rampage fine after the cooldown decrease by 50% in March. My worry/guess is that as soon as Spellbreaker becomes meta again due to nerfs to others, Rampage will "become a problem". One problem is that it is very strong on certain maps (e.g. Coliseum) but weaker on others (e.g. Forest). But if you both don't feel that rampage is high priority I will remove it from the list. Also appreciated if others could comment on this! > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > I'd look into having an ICD for the Distortion of this trait. > > > Bad idea with ICD in my opinion, will make it very clunky and weird. There is probably a better solution. > > > > Maybe that's true, Mesmer already plays the UI a lot. > It would be very annoying when you have more than one signet equipped. One possibility is giving the distortion as a bonus to just one of the signets (Signet of Ether or Signet of Inspiration possibly) rather than all of them. I will let Anet figure what they want to do. Theres so many ways to outplay Rampage, even Tempest can with just Immobilize and chill spam. No invulnerables, no evasion spam and certainly no stability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilyanna.9361 Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > So why is Energy an issue? > > > > Why is Sunless an issue? > > > > Why is **Regen** an issue? > > > > W a t? > > > > Do p3/p2/p1 players REALLY complain about this? Like, I feel like I am in two different worlds when I go to Reddit and these threads LMFAO > > Reddit is mostly PvErs (nothing wrong with that). Good questions, I will add a short explanation to the OP. > > **Energy sigil** is by far the strongest sigil (especially since they removed the other strong ones like air/fire/hydro), if you have it on both weapon sets you get +50% more dodges. Almost every meta build uses at least one. It also has a couple of problems: > > * interacts with and boosts certain traits in a way other sigils don't: Reckless Dodge, Selfless Daring, Companion's Defense, Deceptive Evasion, (+ the entire Mirage specialization). These are used very often in meta specs and energy sigils take them to unintended levels; of course you could balance these effects after energy sigil but it would be much easier to just remove it from PvP, as has already been done with most of the other strong sigils. > * Players who want to make sure to land their burst can "count dodges" - keep track of the opponent's endurance. This tactic is invalidated by the Energy sigil. > > **Sunless rune** I already explained, the fear on the 6th bonus is undodgeable, which means that you can interrupt your opponent mid-dodge (bug). > > The problem with **Regeneration** is that it heals too much without any healing power and certain specs have abundant access to it (ele, guard, mes, thief, engi, ranger). An alternative to reducing base regen rate (simple solution) is to nerf the access to regen that some of these specs have. As with protection, near-permanent/permanent regeneration shouldn't be so easy to get. But is the heal really THAT noteworthy? I mean I'm not gonna lie I honestly do feel Regen is useless to me. It's not gonna mitigate any burst damage and certainly not gonna help me when it gets corrupted. It's pointless to have unless it paired with a damn good trait like the ranger ones or eles (in theory their Regen traits would be strong but they have been disgustingly nerfed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagg.9236 Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > I doubt Anet have time to read through hundreds of pages of balance discussion, so I thought we should have a thread for simple, to-the-point talk about the highest-priority nerfs/hotfixes for PvP (ideally before patch goes live), *be conservative; only include what you think is truly most important to make PvP "playable".* > > **General** > > * Remove Energy Sigil from PvP (~+50% endurance, boosts certain traits too much, boost the whole Mirage spec.)(read comments below) Just give staff ele some bonus then, because it barely manages to compete with energy sigil equipped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 2, 2019 Author Share Posted March 2, 2019 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"Ario.8964" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > I like how you're already proposing nerfs to sneak gyro and we haven't even seen its new implementation yet. Nice! > > > > > > > > There have been many instances where they make something completely broken and it takes months to fix. > > > > > > So let's break it before we know what it does? > > > > Nothing wrong with expressing possible concerns for things overperforming since I'm pretty sure nobody here likes it when the game goes through cycles of "this is the most op spec, play it". I agree, we should be careful about going straight for nerf, but it's reasonable to voice concerns as it gives anet an idea of something they could have possibly overlooked or it gives them something to watch and see if it indeed overperforms. > > Yeah, but the lack of confidence in this kind of statement is staggering. Usually when things become OP, it's because there were certain interactions between gear, traits, or skills that the devs didn't anticipate. Individual skill changes alone rarely result in something becoming OP, and they are well-aware that drastically reworking something can cause it to become unbalanced. But we **do** know what it does, that's the whole point of the patch notes. We know that 1. gyro is untargetable 2. moving stealth aoe for allies 3. moving smokefield, the only one of its type. People who play PvP can see that this has the potential to be busted in PvP, hence why I wanted to express worry/concern. Recall that the skill design team is separate from the PvP team as far as I know. There have been instances where broken stuff has been released into the game which could have been avoided with feedback (most recent being stealth on dodge). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yannir.4132 Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > Recall that the skill design team is separate from the PvP team as far as I know. There have been instances where broken stuff has been released into the game which could have been avoided with feedback (most recent being stealth on dodge). That's the past I think. It was announced a few months back that the competitive teams(PvP, WvW) have been merged into the skill design team, and they are now known as the systems team. Which is what we currently have. Who knows maybe that's going to change now too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 2, 2019 Author Share Posted March 2, 2019 > @"Swagg.9236" said: > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > I doubt Anet have time to read through hundreds of pages of balance discussion, so I thought we should have a thread for simple, to-the-point talk about the highest-priority nerfs/hotfixes for PvP (ideally before patch goes live), *be conservative; only include what you think is truly most important to make PvP "playable".* > > > > **General** > > > > * Remove Energy Sigil from PvP (~+50% endurance, boosts certain traits too much, boost the whole Mirage spec.)(read comments below) > > Just give staff ele some bonus then, because it barely manages to compete with energy sigil equipped. Yes, but this is more long-term. We will see if tempest buffs can help ele. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 2, 2019 Author Share Posted March 2, 2019 > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > @"Lilyanna.9361" said: > > > So why is Energy an issue? > > > > > > Why is Sunless an issue? > > > > > > Why is **Regen** an issue? > > > > > > W a t? > > > > > > Do p3/p2/p1 players REALLY complain about this? Like, I feel like I am in two different worlds when I go to Reddit and these threads LMFAO > > > > Reddit is mostly PvErs (nothing wrong with that). Good questions, I will add a short explanation to the OP. > > > > **Energy sigil** is by far the strongest sigil (especially since they removed the other strong ones like air/fire/hydro), if you have it on both weapon sets you get +50% more dodges. Almost every meta build uses at least one. It also has a couple of problems: > > > > * interacts with and boosts certain traits in a way other sigils don't: Reckless Dodge, Selfless Daring, Companion's Defense, Deceptive Evasion, (+ the entire Mirage specialization). These are used very often in meta specs and energy sigils take them to unintended levels; of course you could balance these effects after energy sigil but it would be much easier to just remove it from PvP, as has already been done with most of the other strong sigils. > > * Players who want to make sure to land their burst can "count dodges" - keep track of the opponent's endurance. This tactic is invalidated by the Energy sigil. > > > > **Sunless rune** I already explained, the fear on the 6th bonus is undodgeable, which means that you can interrupt your opponent mid-dodge (bug). > > > > The problem with **Regeneration** is that it heals too much without any healing power and certain specs have abundant access to it (ele, guard, mes, thief, engi, ranger). An alternative to reducing base regen rate (simple solution) is to nerf the access to regen that some of these specs have. As with protection, near-permanent/permanent regeneration shouldn't be so easy to get. > > But is the heal really THAT noteworthy? I mean I'm not gonna lie I honestly do feel Regen is useless to me. It's not gonna mitigate any burst damage and certainly not gonna help me when it gets corrupted. It's pointless to have unless it paired with a kitten good trait like the ranger ones or eles (in theory their Regen traits would be strong but they have been disgustingly nerfed) The thing that gets me is that on builds which have plenty of damage mitigation, evasion, invuln and don't take any healing power, regen still gives very strong sustain. On tanky healers like mender's ele it isn't that big. The most clear examples are S/D thief and Mirage, both can have near-permanent regen uptime. But this could also be a more general problem with gw2 that people can invest in damage mitigation and sustain and still do damage. I've removed it for now because it is more involved and bigger than the other changes on the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 2, 2019 Author Share Posted March 2, 2019 Needs input from FB mains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derm.4932 Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 If you're gonna take earth runes please take grove runes too. They shit out even more protection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"Ario.8964" said: > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > I like how you're already proposing nerfs to sneak gyro and we haven't even seen its new implementation yet. Nice! > > > > > > > > > > There have been many instances where they make something completely broken and it takes months to fix. > > > > > > > > So let's break it before we know what it does? > > > > > > Nothing wrong with expressing possible concerns for things overperforming since I'm pretty sure nobody here likes it when the game goes through cycles of "this is the most op spec, play it". I agree, we should be careful about going straight for nerf, but it's reasonable to voice concerns as it gives anet an idea of something they could have possibly overlooked or it gives them something to watch and see if it indeed overperforms. > > > > Yeah, but the lack of confidence in this kind of statement is staggering. Usually when things become OP, it's because there were certain interactions between gear, traits, or skills that the devs didn't anticipate. Individual skill changes alone rarely result in something becoming OP, and they are well-aware that drastically reworking something can cause it to become unbalanced. > > But we **do** know what it does, that's the whole point of the patch notes. We know that 1. gyro is untargetable 2. moving stealth aoe for allies 3. moving smokefield, the only one of its type. What I'm saying is we don't know a lot of things, we just know the general idea: 1. We don't know if the smoke field is for the whole duration of the gyro. 2. We don't know if the gyro still has a fuel system or HP while the engineer is using it. 3. We also don't know if the reworked gyro has the same duration. 4. We don't know if the gyro will be treated like Shadow Refuge (leave the area, get revealed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagg.9236 Posted March 2, 2019 Share Posted March 2, 2019 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"Swagg.9236" said: > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > I doubt Anet have time to read through hundreds of pages of balance discussion, so I thought we should have a thread for simple, to-the-point talk about the highest-priority nerfs/hotfixes for PvP (ideally before patch goes live), *be conservative; only include what you think is truly most important to make PvP "playable".* > > > > > > **General** > > > > > > * Remove Energy Sigil from PvP (~+50% endurance, boosts certain traits too much, boost the whole Mirage spec.)(read comments below) > > > > Just give staff ele some bonus then, because it barely manages to compete with energy sigil equipped. > > Yes, but this is more long-term. We will see if tempest buffs can help ele. Adding boons to skills that nobody will ever use (or will die faster for taking them) isn't going to change anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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