No off-hands?

[SunRay.5874]

Hi! I'm fairly new, about 6 weeks in with 2 Lvl 80's, and I can't help but notice how the game basically forces you to use something for your offhand when wielding any 1 handed weapon, unless you're okay with deliberately putting yourself at a disadvantage. Don't you think that having only just a one-handed sword equipped should merit you with unique 4 and 5 abilities that are mobility and maneuverability focused for better dueling than just having the slots empty? In a game as diverse and liberating as GW2, I half expected this to be a thing already. Please share your thoughts.

[MoriMoriMori.5349]

That would be nice thing to have, but they probably decided to cut some corners in the past and make it more simple, and it hardly will change any time soon.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

It's partly economic, so that there remains demand for the items that go into gear, based on everyone needing two hands. It's partly balance, as it's one less 'weapon' to worry about. (And that's without getting into whether in lore, the player character would be more proficient with a main-hand dagger and without any off-hand.)

 

That said, thief skills exist that assume no off-hand.

[SunRay.5874]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> It's partly economic, so that there remains demand for the items that go into gear, based on everyone needing two hands. It's partly balance, as it's one less 'weapon' to worry about. (And that's without getting into whether in lore, the player character would be more proficient with a main-hand dagger and without any off-hand.)

>

> That said, thief skills exist that assume no off-hand.

 

I guess it will impact the economy, but balance issues would be easy to remedy. An elite specialization that features one-handed combat perhaps?

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"SunRay.5874" said:

> I guess it will impact the economy, but balance issues would be easy to remedy. An elite specialization that features one-handed combat perhaps?

Balance issues are already challenging. That's why ANet has said that they don't have plans to add new weapons.

 

They could make "no off-hand" an elite spec... but then, wouldn't that be much more likely to disappoint more people rather than the few who (such as yourself) who wish to see the option?

 

[SunRay.5874]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"SunRay.5874" said:

> > I guess it will impact the economy, but balance issues would be easy to remedy. An elite specialization that features one-handed combat perhaps?

> Balance issues are already challenging. That's why ANet has said that they don't have plans to add new weapons.

>

> They could make "no off-hand" an elite spec... but then, wouldn't that be much more likely to disappoint more people rather than the few who (such as yourself) who wish to see the option?

>

 

Guess there aren't enough players who'd back the idea up or, at the very least, they're just contented with what they have. I just think it sucks how they'd left such an interesting mechanic out. There's still a lot of room for diversity and variation apart from featuring new weapons.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"SunRay.5874" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @"SunRay.5874" said:

> > > I guess it will impact the economy, but balance issues would be easy to remedy. An elite specialization that features one-handed combat perhaps?

> > Balance issues are already challenging. That's why ANet has said that they don't have plans to add new weapons.

> >

> > They could make "no off-hand" an elite spec... but then, wouldn't that be much more likely to disappoint more people rather than the few who (such as yourself) who wish to see the option?

> >

>

> Guess there aren't enough players who'd back the idea up or, at the very least, they're just contented with what they have. I just think it sucks how they'd left such an interesting mechanic out. There's still a lot of room for diversity and variation apart from featuring new weapons.

 

I'm not against the idea. I just don't remember anyone bringing it up in the last 5+ years. (I have a vague memory of people asking about no-off-hand before launch and during BETA/2012, but that could have just been regarding thief. It's never been a strong option.)

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Since weapons carry stats, how would that work? Would they need to create new one-handed weapons that have the stats of two-handed weapons? Pretty sure the Devs stated they didn't want to create new weapons, but...who knows?

[MoriMoriMori.5349]

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> Since weapons carry stats, how would that work? Would they need to create new one-handed weapons that have the stats of two-handed weapons? Pretty sure the Devs stated they didn't want to create new weapons, but...who knows?

 

If attached to suggested new e-spec, it could be combined with stances. So the bonus stats and damage you are missing due to missing offhand weapon you would get from activating one of the stances. Depending on which you activate, you may change your stats and some additional effects your attacks have, or attacks against you have. I.e. sort of a fancy fencer e-spec.

 

But, adding more weapon skills adds to complexity, and they still can't properly balance the current builds, so..

[Vayne.8563]

I don't think enough people would care to make it worth the development time. Not saying I would be against it, but there are surely more pressing matters to address in the game than this.

[Khisanth.2948]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> It's partly economic, so that there remains demand for the items that go into gear, based on everyone needing two hands. It's partly balance, as it's one less 'weapon' to worry about. (And that's without getting into whether in lore, the player character would be more proficient with a main-hand dagger and without any off-hand.)

 

Yet 1h weapons cost the same as 2h to craft making builds that use 1h weapons potentially twice as expensive

 

>

> That said, thief skills exist that assume no off-hand.

 

Still only 3 skills for 1h

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > It's partly economic, so that there remains demand for the items that go into gear, based on everyone needing two hands. It's partly balance, as it's one less 'weapon' to worry about. (And that's without getting into whether in lore, the player character would be more proficient with a main-hand dagger and without any off-hand.)

>

> Yet 1h weapons cost the same as 2h to craft making builds that use 1h weapons potentially twice as expensive

 

It's a bit less.

* [Zojja's Blade costs 50g to make](https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/calculator/a~0!b~1!c~0!d~1-46774)

* [Zojja's Bastion costs 44 gold](https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/calculator/a~0!b~1!c~0!d~1-46770)

* [Zojja's Claymore costs the same 50g](https://gw2efficiency.com/crafting/calculator/a~0!b~1!c~0!d~1-46762)

 

Regardless, creating a Sword/nothing build with 5 skills would have economic consequences.

 

>

> >

> > That said, thief skills exist that assume no off-hand.

>

> Still only 3 skills for 1h

The theory always seemed to be that the transformed 3rd skill would make up for the lost of two off-hand skills. In practice, it's never been anything close to that.

 

****

I meant to say earlier...

I don't see any unsolvable issue with offering main+empty as an option. The economic issues can be addressed in a variety of ways; the balance issues aren't innately more complex than any other.

 

It really comes down to opportunity costs for ANet. The resources to solve economic and balance issues can go to all sorts of things. What makes main+empty compelling enough for it to be prioritized over anything else?

 

Personally, I'm not thrilled by the idea, but that's fine; I'm just the one person. However, historically, I haven't seen this come up before, so my informed guess is that people would prefer elite specs with weapons (not without), with new skins. And there's no question that a solid block of people would prefer a new weapon type instead (that comes with its own special issues, mostly that the game has all these weapon sets that either would feel incomplete or need a new skin).

 

tl;dr not a bad idea, just not necessarily one that would get much attention from ANet.

 

[Danikat.8537]

I think the thief skill for an empty off-hand is just meant to cover you until you get an offhand weapon, so thieves aren't stuck with 2 skills instead of 3. Under the current system skill 3 unlocks at level 4 and off-hand weapons at level 6, so thieves would have to gain an additional 2 levels then get 2 skills at once. (I can't remember how it used to work before level rewards, I think there was still a limit on equipping an off-hand weapon but I can't remember what it was.)

 

It may even be that the way weapon skills are designed there always has to be something in that slot, so leaving it empty would cause problems if a thief ever unequipped their off-hand weapon without removing the main hand weapon first and instead of just putting in a placeholder they decided to put in a functional skill.

 

For now the nearest you can get is using an off-hand weapon that doesn't look like a weapon. There are even a few that look like almost nothing, particularly foci. For example the [Dragonsblood Focus](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragonsblood_Focus_(skin) "Dragonsblood Focus") looks like a giant bracelet, [The Anomaly](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Anomaly_(skin) "The Anomaly") is a purple glow around your hand and there's a lot that look like scrolls, rocks, mugs, candles and all kinds of other random objects.

 

There's also the torches [Touch of Madness](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Touch_of_Madness "Touch of Madness") and [Touch of Fog](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Touch_of_Fog_(skin) "Touch of Fog") and some daggers which don't look like daggers.

[Tommo Chocolate.5870]

Can anyone give an example of another game in which you don't put yourself at a disadvantage by using a 1-handed weapon with no off-hand? I can't think of an RPG I've played where that's true - so I'd be interested to know if there is one. (I'm guessing there must be a game where using shield reduces your speed, or something.)

[Danikat.8537]

> @"Tommo Chocolate.5870" said:

> Can anyone give an example of another game in which you don't put yourself at a disadvantage by using a 1-handed weapon with no off-hand? I can't think of an RPG I've played where that's true - so I'd be interested to know if there is one. (I'm guessing there must be a game where using shield reduces your speed, or something.)

 

Some DnD rule sets make it difficult to dual wield (Baldurs Gate for example, which uses advanced 2nd edition rules). You're not strictly a disadvantage but you do need to build your character for it - you have to put points into the dual wield skill line which then can't be used for other things, and you do slightly reduced damage with both weapons, especially the off-hand, due to it being difficult to use two weapons effectively at the same time. Shields are a bit more practical but weight is a factor in that game, so carrying a shield (particularly a large one like a tower shield) will restrict how much you can carry and how fast and quietly you can move.

 

In some games it's simple impossible - for example I think Skyrim was the first Elder Scrolls game to allow you to use any off-hands except a shield (and that required building up the relevant skill to be useful). That seems to be more common in older games. I guess as time went on developers realised people really liked the idea of dual wielding in fantasy games and since they don't need to be all that realistic there was no reason to prevent it. Plus it allows weapon systems like GW2 has where it's easier to balance stats and upgrades when you can assume everyone will be using 2 1-handed weapons or 1 2-handed weapon.

[beeftotem.4137]

I think it's probably more of a balancing and time/effort thing. Blizzard had this same issue with frost death knights and fury warriors. Frost death knights could use either 2 1-handers or 1 2- hander and balancing both was a nightmare and in the end most people used which ever one came out on top anyway, so they removed the option to use 2 handers to make balancing easier.

[Biff.5312]

I mean I could imagine in the next expansion they could come out with something like a single-handed proficiency that would be represented by an item that fills that slot and can take infusions etc., but doesn't appear as a weapon of any kind - it would be a weapon type in itself and I could see that for a particular elite trait line or something for each profession. I don't think it would happen, but it's conceivable.

[Gehenna.3625]

> @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > It's partly economic, so that there remains demand for the items that go into gear, based on everyone needing two hands. It's partly balance, as it's one less 'weapon' to worry about. (And that's without getting into whether in lore, the player character would be more proficient with a main-hand dagger and without any off-hand.)

>

> Yet 1h weapons cost the same as 2h to craft making builds that use 1h weapons potentially twice as expensive

>

> >

> > That said, thief skills exist that assume no off-hand.

>

> Still only 3 skills for 1h

 

Yep but that one handed build is getting buffed today in the patch. I find that very intriguing.

[Tanner Blackfeather.6509]

> @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > It's partly economic, so that there remains demand for the items that go into gear, based on everyone needing two hands. It's partly balance, as it's one less 'weapon' to worry about. (And that's without getting into whether in lore, the player character would be more proficient with a main-hand dagger and without any off-hand.)

> >

> > Yet 1h weapons cost the same as 2h to craft making builds that use 1h weapons potentially twice as expensive

> >

> > >

> > > That said, thief skills exist that assume no off-hand.

> >

> > Still only 3 skills for 1h

>

> Yep but that one handed build is getting buffed today in the patch. I find that very intriguing.

 

Pistol/Nothing skill 3 is getting buffed because Pistol/Dagger will occasionally have acces to it.

[Gehenna.3625]

> @"Tanner Blackfeather.6509" said:

> > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > It's partly economic, so that there remains demand for the items that go into gear, based on everyone needing two hands. It's partly balance, as it's one less 'weapon' to worry about. (And that's without getting into whether in lore, the player character would be more proficient with a main-hand dagger and without any off-hand.)

> > >

> > > Yet 1h weapons cost the same as 2h to craft making builds that use 1h weapons potentially twice as expensive

> > >

> > > >

> > > > That said, thief skills exist that assume no off-hand.

> > >

> > > Still only 3 skills for 1h

> >

> > Yep but that one handed build is getting buffed today in the patch. I find that very intriguing.

>

> Pistol/Nothing skill 3 is getting buffed because Pistol/Dagger will occasionally have acces to it.

Oh really? That's the reason? You'd think they had more important things to balance but oh well. I shall remain underwhelmed.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"SunRay.5874" said:

> Hi! I'm fairly new, about 6 weeks in

 

Welcome!

 

> @"SunRay.5874" said:

> I can't help but notice how the game basically forces you to use something for your offhand when wielding any 1 handed weapon, unless you're okay with deliberately putting yourself at a disadvantage.

 

You answered your own question. The game doesn't force you to use an offhand, you just recognize that it's better to use an offhand than it is to limit your character to only using skills 1-3.

 

> @"SunRay.5874" said:

>In a game as diverse and liberating as GW2, I half expected this to be a thing already.

 

Your idea isn't a bad one, but consider the big picture and what an additional burden this would create with regards to balancing. ANET can limit which weapons are used as offhands, but with your suggestion, every 1H weapon that can be used main hand would then automatically require the creation of skills 4 + 5 if used alone, or in other words, you would need ANET to create a new weapon for each 1H weapon that can be used main hand for each profession in the game, as well as the elite specializations that give access to new 1H weapons (eg. Axe for Firebrand or Mirage).

 

That would be a ton of work, and the more "weapons" you put it in the game, the greater the imbalances will be as there would be just too many variables.

 

I too am unaware of any MMO that allows for 1H weapon in main hand with no requirement for an offhand. For games like WoW many of the offhands were just stat sticks with potential proc abilities, but didn't do damage on their own.

[Einlanzer.1627]

> @"SunRay.5874" said:

> Hi! I'm fairly new, about 6 weeks in with 2 Lvl 80's, and I can't help but notice how the game basically forces you to use something for your offhand when wielding any 1 handed weapon, unless you're okay with deliberately putting yourself at a disadvantage. Don't you think that having only just a one-handed sword equipped should merit you with unique 4 and 5 abilities that are mobility and maneuverability focused for better dueling than just having the slots empty? In a game as diverse and liberating as GW2, I half expected this to be a thing already. Please share your thoughts.

 

Yes, I've made this exact suggestion before.

[Pifil.5193]

I've thought before that a "glove" or "unarmed" item would be rather nice. Effectively it would be a weapon without any unique model (just using your normal character's gloves) but it would have stats and a sigil slot (and it's own skills, although those could vary depending on main hand).

 

It could work for an unarmed combatant e-spec.

[Leo G.4501]

I think the most compelling reason to support the idea from a player perspective is animations.

 

It's a subjective reason but if done well, having a set where you're using one sword occasionally swapping from swinging with a single hand to using both hands for really powerful blows is very aesthetically pleasing or a pistol animation where you steady your aim for a convincing well aimed burst or use the other hand for a quick mag change or loading a special round. Or what about an animation for dagger that shows a compelling hand swap for a martial combo using a feinted and stab to an unprotected area.

 

The thing is, a lot of the current animations could be better. Many look recycled or like limp wristed flailing and it kind of had to be when a player can have any combo of offhand weapons that would affect the main.

 

Having a sole one handed weapon could possibly utilize more stylized animations than dual weapons.

[SunRay.5874]

The amount of considerate comments bringing up the workload that Anet would have to face, should this mechanic be implemented, is quite... beguiling? I've never seen a community that concerns itself this much with the potential troubles that their game creators might go through by complying with player demands. Over half of the replies here are something like "Yeah I guess it would be nice, but Anet would have a hard time trying to figure it out". Or "Anet is busy with other stuff". Very interesting.