Stop Complaining About Scrapper, It Isn't OP - Now With Video Proof

[Quadox.7834]

> @"Brendan.1309" said:

> So personally, I feel that high power builds such as Ranger, Revenant, etc. have are just fine at this moment because there are super tanky builds out there such as scrapper, necro/FB. There has to be an answer to slow tanky builds such as glassy builds, there has to be an answer to glassy builds such as high mobility builds, there has to be an answer to high mobility builds such as slow tanky builds.

>

> Rock, paper, scissors.

>

> Is it perfect? No, but we took a big step from the last patch and now its just tweaks that need to be made.

> Honestly, I'd prefer that we had some real solutions to things such as match manipulation and other game modes before we worked on those tweaks, but I can understand how the players and the development team at anet could feel differently.

>

> Great Job @"Trevor Boyer.6524"

 

I disagree, I think there is pretty much only rock and scissors right now, what you call tanky builds and mobility builds.

 

"High-power" builds are reaper, power chrono, core guard, fresh air ele - and these are generally not that good (talking about high-level). Not 100% sure where I would put slb.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > (...)

> > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > > * DEs and D/P or Staff Daredevils < Berserker Soulbeast. Due to the lack of stability on Thieves, the nature of Sick Em reveal, and Mauls/WIs/Rapid fires literally being able to "1-shot Thieves", the Thieves learn that BSB is not something they want to engage 1v1.

> > > > de's with their projectile denial seem like they would give you a hard time.

> > >

> > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unstoppable_Union :wink:

> > >

> >

> > he wasn't running that, besides it only lasts 4 sec.

>

> "only" 4 secs?? On 10 sec cd??

> This trait is broken.

 

Oh it can get worse than that, with the combination of these 3: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Call_of_the_Wild + https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Clarion_Bond + https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unstoppable_Union Thing is, I don't run any of these. The unblockables are overrated and misunderstood. Every single one of these options is a significant lose in potential DPS factor, and sort of impractical to use for a few reasons:

* Significant loss of DPS, which is the entire point of the build to begin with. If the glass cannon doesn't have nuclear kill damage, having unblockables won't matter in this tanky meta. Right now, if something survives the burst, it just heals itself to full, and then you're waiting 30s+ for burst to come off CD, with a lack of sustained quickness/gradual DPS to pressure the target thereafter.

* On a build that can kill anything in 2 hits or sometimes 1 hit, that happens in under 1s with quickness, you don't need unblockables. What you want is to maintain that DPS/quickness and simply watch for an opening to land the 1 shot or 2 shot. This is actually much easier to do with a higher success rate, than trying to wait and gauge the use of your opponent's blocks, while waiting for weapon swaps/pet swaps/warhorn cds to attempt to correctly time some 4s interval of burst, that you aren't even sure will land because the opponent has several other ways to avoid the damage.

* A BSB should not often be engaging things with many blocks to begin with. Its job is primarily to hard counter and remove these from the game: All Necros, Power Based Mesmers, Other DPS Rangers, Thieves, and the only exception are Scrappers & Firebrands. But the BSB can melee the Scrapper to death to avoid reflect, and the FB aegis spam is chewed through with the use of LB 5 or Rapid Fires, and the FB's bubbles don't save him from 1-shot 2-shot Maul/WI melee combos. Other builds you want to engage only if it is convenient. Two of them, you want to avoid like the plague, which are Heralds & Condi Mirages. <- They hard counter BSB.

 

 

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> Loved the video @"Trevor Boyer.6524" , was pretty funny to watch. What is your opinion on prot holo specifically vs BSB? This is [the build I'm running](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Stand_Still_S/S "the build I'm running").

 

The BSB should win if you use sword/shield, through sheer mobility and ranged spam. The high powered ranged spam forces your CDs, and eventually the BSB will find a good opening to come in with stability/melee 2 shots. If you use rifle however, the match up becomes this incredibly equalized duel that can last forever. Rifle 2, 4 and 5 makes it much more difficult for the BSB to approach or disengage the Holo. It also makes it much easier for the Holo to get aggressive and chase if he wishes.

[xp eke xp.6724]

Can i see some calcs or statistics?

Don't wanna argue on a "it feels strong" or "thats op/broken pls nerf" base.

 

At best categorize on:

Base defence

- hp

- armor

- def buffs

- evades

- blocks

- debuffs

- cc

- movement

- stealth

- counterpressure

- heal (per sec and as burst)

 

Base offence:

- Dps

- burst

- debuff

- mobility

- boons

 

Support:

- team buffs

- heal (per sec and burst)

- rezz

- dmg

- cc

- unice options (like Portal)

 

At a timeline of 20 sec, 40 sec and 90sec (most weaponswaps allow to use all weaponskills at 20 sec, most utility skills cd used are max at 40sec and 90sec for ult uptime... I know some can be used more/less but for statistics thats a good option)

 

I want the uptime of buffs, evades, blocks, stealth, cc, debuff, bursts. How long they least and how many times you can burst.

 

Then also i need one data with the best dmg rotation, defence rotation (like for 2v1s), support rotations and duell rotation against each class. To see the potential at each situation outside of teamsynergies (if you also did something about it, you have my respect! I kneel on you, my heroe!)

 

Also needed: the datas of changes on the statistics at all rotations, to simulate the optimal situation on high playerskills.

 

If you still have the time:

- try to calc the worser actions, to get a statistic about randomness affecting the distance to the optimal rotation.

- mapabuses

- bugabuses

- mechanical differents (like reactiontime)

 

Imo first we need a base knowledge, to get a fair discussion about balance, or to categories builds.

Btw. Did i miss something? Or do you think that should be enough?

 

Thanks for everyone helping us to collect databases :)

[Quadox.7834]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > > (...)

> > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > > > * DEs and D/P or Staff Daredevils < Berserker Soulbeast. Due to the lack of stability on Thieves, the nature of Sick Em reveal, and Mauls/WIs/Rapid fires literally being able to "1-shot Thieves", the Thieves learn that BSB is not something they want to engage 1v1.

> > > > > de's with their projectile denial seem like they would give you a hard time.

> > > >

> > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unstoppable_Union :wink:

> > > >

> > >

> > > he wasn't running that, besides it only lasts 4 sec.

> >

> > "only" 4 secs?? On 10 sec cd??

> > This trait is broken.

>

> Oh it can get worse than that, with the combination of these 3: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Call_of_the_Wild + https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Clarion_Bond + https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unstoppable_Union Thing is, I don't run any of these. The unblockables are overrated and misunderstood. Every single one of these options is a significant lose in potential DPS factor, and sort of impractical to use for a few reasons:

> * Significant loss of DPS, which is the entire point of the build to begin with. If the glass cannon doesn't have nuclear kill damage, having unblockables won't matter in this tanky meta. Right now, if something survives the burst, it just heals itself to full, and then you're waiting 30s+ for burst to come off CD, with a lack of sustained quickness/gradual DPS to pressure the target thereafter.

> * On a build that can kill anything in 2 hits or sometimes 1 hit, that happens in under 1s with quickness, you don't need unblockables. What you want is to maintain that DPS/quickness and simply watch for an opening to land the 1 shot or 2 shot. This is actually much easier to do with a higher success rate, than trying to wait and gauge the use of your opponent's blocks, while waiting for weapon swaps/pet swaps/warhorn cds to attempt to correctly time some 4s interval of burst, that you aren't even sure will land because the opponent has several other ways to avoid the damage.

> * A BSB should not often be engaging things with many blocks to begin with. Its job is primarily to hard counter and remove these from the game: All Necros, Power Based Mesmers, Other DPS Rangers, Thieves, and the only exception are Scrappers & Firebrands. But the BSB can melee the Scrapper to death to avoid reflect, and the FB aegis spam is chewed through with the use of LB 5 or Rapid Fires, and the FB's bubbles don't save him from 1-shot 2-shot Maul/WI melee combos. Other builds you want to engage only if it is convenient. Two of them, you want to avoid like the plague, which are Heralds & Condi Mirages. <- They hard counter BSB.

>

>

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > Loved the video @"Trevor Boyer.6524" , was pretty funny to watch. What is your opinion on prot holo specifically vs BSB? This is [the build I'm running](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Stand_Still_S/S "the build I'm running").

>

> The BSB should win if you use sword/shield, through sheer mobility and ranged spam. The high powered ranged spam forces your CDs, and eventually the BSB will find a good opening to come in with stability/melee 2 shots. If you use rifle however, the match up becomes this incredibly equalized duel that can last forever. Rifle 2, 4 and 5 makes it much more difficult for the BSB to approach or disengage the Holo. It also makes it much easier for the Holo to get aggressive and chase if he wishes.

 

Sure, but the trait is still broken.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> Scrapper main spotted.

 

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> Wow, the defense of scrapper here is very amusing. And trying to use the same arguments that mesmers used just shows how disingenuous engy mains were from the beginning.

 

I don't know which is more amusing for me. People rehashing the same defenses the moment their class becomes overtuned, or the willingness of the mains of the last overtuned classes to point these things out now.

The forum is really fun.

 

[Brendan.1309]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > Scrapper main spotted.

>

> > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > Wow, the defense of scrapper here is very amusing. And trying to use the same arguments that mesmers used just shows how disingenuous engy mains were from the beginning.

>

> I don't know which is more amusing for me. People rehashing the same defenses the moment their class becomes overtuned, or the willingness of the mains of the last overtuned classes to point these things out now.

> The forum is really fun.

>

 

The people defending scrapper the most in this thread are not Scrapper mains.

In fact the one that wrote it in the first place is not a Scrapper main.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Brendan.1309" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > Scrapper main spotted.

> >

> > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > Wow, the defense of scrapper here is very amusing. And trying to use the same arguments that mesmers used just shows how disingenuous engy mains were from the beginning.

> >

> > I don't know which is more amusing for me. People rehashing the same defenses the moment their class becomes overtuned, or the willingness of the mains of the last overtuned classes to point these things out now.

> > The forum is really fun.

> >

>

> The people defending scrapper the most in this thread are not Scrapper mains.

> In fact the one that wrote it in the first place is not a Scrapper main.

 

I did not imply Trevor was a scrapper main or that the defense of the class in its current state, particularly in this thread, is perpetuated by scrapper mains. I am fully aware of what Solori is doing with the comment I quoted. My intent was to point out in general that this behavior is what occurs.

 

My point was, for a community that has been through several bunker metas where a class set up shop on a node and refused to leave unless +1d, in a conquest oriented pvp scenario, there is a stunning willingness to keep revisiting bunker meta when it has been shown, time and again that it doesnt work.

 

As I said previously in this thread:

 

> It isn't the scrapper's fault. It's just the most recent on the stack, we still have boonbeasts and to a lesser extent spellbreakers to deal with in terms of survivibility.

 

>Bunker meta approacheth

 

[BlackTruth.6813]

Yes I can confirm, Soulbeast can actually burst a scrapper.

 

If a scrapper has toolkit or hammer guard to attempt to mitigate power damage, soulbeast can use unblockables and one shot a scrapper. Scrapper has some options that they can do tho (wait out unblockable, obstruct long bow, etc) Only way to kinda tank soulbeast burst and keep point is with Elixir X and pray you get Rampage once you run out of dodges.

 

It's still possible for scrapper delay a point 2v1 but it gets VERY hard vs. instant cast Shatter Chrono or soulbeast god tier dodge baits + automatic pet.

 

Every other class though, Scrapper does fine and kinda more than enough (Even vs. Spellbreaker it's not completely bad but Warrior DOES have an edge)

 

It's beginning to really look like Scrapper doesn't deserve nerfs until Soulbeast and Chrono burst gets toned down. But more damage is great for the game so gotta be careful.

[DaShi.1368]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> Yes I can confirm, Soulbeast can actually burst a scrapper.

>

> If a scrapper has toolkit or hammer guard to attempt to mitigate power damage, soulbeast can use unblockables and one shot a scrapper. Scrapper has some options that they can do tho (wait out unblockable, obstruct long bow, etc) Only way to kinda tank soulbeast burst and keep point is with Elixir X and pray you get Rampage once you run out of dodges.

>

> It's still possible for scrapper delay a point 2v1 but it gets VERY hard vs. instant cast Shatter Chrono or soulbeast god tier dodge baits + automatic pet.

>

> Every other class though, Scrapper does fine and kinda more than enough (Even vs. Spellbreaker it's not completely bad but Warrior DOES have an edge)

>

> It's beginning to really look like Scrapper doesn't deserve nerfs until Soulbeast and Chrono burst gets toned down. But more damage is great for the game so gotta be careful.

 

"Scrapper maybe OP, but nerf mesmer."

[mortrialus.3062]

As fun as that PvP video is, I don't think "25k Rapid Fire Longbow Bursts eat scrappers alive so scrappers aren't too powerful defensively" when most players agree that level of burst is very over the top and generally unhealthy for the game mode anyway.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Btw, where are these over powered scrappers everyone is talking about and who are they? Seriously, I'd like to know. I want to 1v1 these people on a DPS spec, for the sake of testing. So far I'm not seeing any amazingly notable tank gods, regardless of how good of a player is on it, yet I keep hearing that they're out there.

[Lunia.2736]

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > So here's a new video to make you question if Scrapper is OP or not:

> >

> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI80zsNaW0M

>

> Like, how is this kitten allowed to exist while hammer guard gets gutted because "it's burst is too high"

 

Honestly? No idea.

My Soulbeast is like twice as good as my Core Guardian in pretty much every aspect. Same with Greatsword, hitting an entire Whirling Wrath doesn't even come close to a Maul, Rapid Fire or Worldly Impact. All that while having the ability to do unblockable damage and stun.

 

Auto-hits on a GS Core Guard hit for like 1k-2k while my LB auto-hits for 4k-6k with Sic 'Em. That's pretty much a Glacial Blow on each auto while also having easy access to Quickness and 1500 range.

[Quadox.7834]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> Yes I can confirm, Soulbeast can actually burst a scrapper.

>

> If a scrapper has toolkit or hammer guard to attempt to mitigate power damage, soulbeast can use unblockables and one shot a scrapper. Scrapper has some options that they can do tho (wait out unblockable, obstruct long bow, etc) Only way to kinda tank soulbeast burst and keep point is with Elixir X and pray you get Rampage once you run out of dodges.

>

> It's still possible for scrapper delay a point 2v1 but it gets VERY hard vs. instant cast Shatter Chrono or soulbeast god tier dodge baits + automatic pet.

>

> Every other class though, Scrapper does fine and kinda more than enough (Even vs. Spellbreaker it's not completely bad but Warrior DOES have an edge)

>

> It's beginning to really look like Scrapper doesn't deserve nerfs until Soulbeast and Chrono burst gets toned down. But more damage is great for the game so gotta be careful.

 

Do you actually think power Chrono is good?

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> Btw, where are these over powered scrappers everyone is talking about and who are they? Seriously, I'd like to know. I want to 1v1 these people on a DPS spec, for the sake of testing. So far I'm not seeing any amazingly notable tank gods, regardless of how good of a player is on it, yet I keep hearing that they're out there.

 

I haven't seen 'em since people adjusted their builds for the new meta. I tank better on prot holo anyway.

[Tiviana.2650]

Balance is hard to do in an mmorpg where you have an assortment of classes and builds, its not like games where you have one or two types. One truth about balance in pvp is classes or builds that have high mitigation or healing should be hard to kill. But at the same time they shouldnt pump out damage like a machine gun. Glass cannons should be able to blow people up, but they should be very weak in mitigation and healing shielding. Meaning if they get tunneled they die yes they should have mobility to get away but not overly so.

 

 

ps. Man if my p/SB could only get away with being ignored in pvp so i can burst lol> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > So here's a new video to make you question if Scrapper is OP or not:

> >

> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI80zsNaW0M

>

> Like, how is this kitten allowed to exist while hammer guard gets gutted because "it's burst is too high"

 

You realize that video was a more pro pvper going against players that didnt seem to do much back right. I dont care what you play if you are not good at teamwork and using your abilities to the fullest you will get trounced. He only burst like that because the other guys didnt really do anything to stop him. This is why pvp balanced is a mess, people complain about x one shot y look i have proof! But the context is missing.

 

 

[Brendan.1309]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> As fun as that PvP video is, I don't think "25k Rapid Fire Longbow Bursts eat scrappers alive so scrappers aren't too powerful defensively" when most players agree that level of burst is very over the top and generally unhealthy for the game mode anyway.

 

I think High power builds like this have to exist right now to answer bunker builds. Toning both down (at the same time) would be a good thing for the game.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

This'll be my final post in this thread. I just wanted to point out that there were no scrappers on either team in the final round of NA Monthly AT:

 

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> This'll be my final post in this thread. I just wanted to point out that there were no scrappers on either team in the final round of NA Monthly AT:

>

 

wait, 2 mirage on the final MAT NA?

 

i thought incissor said none? lmao

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > This'll be my final post in this thread. I just wanted to point out that there were no scrappers on either team in the final round of NA Monthly AT:

> >

>

> wait, 2 mirage on the final MAT NA?

>

> i thought incissor said none? lmao

 

Incissor is on EU and likely doesn't pay too close attention to NA.

 

Also I only see Zeromis in the final as a mirage. Other team had Firebrand, Scourge, Thief, Boonbeast, Herald.

[Khalisto.5780]

if you can spam a class with little knowledge about it and still win matches consistently it's prolly op. If most ppl can do it it's definitely op.

[everyman.4375]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> This'll be my final post in this thread. I just wanted to point out that there were no scrappers on either team in the final round of NA Monthly AT:

>

 

Well on EU we had a scrapper on almost every team in mAT.

[Odik.4587]

> @"everyman.4375" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > This'll be my final post in this thread. I just wanted to point out that there were no scrappers on either team in the final round of NA Monthly AT:

> >

>

> Well on EU we had a scrapper on almost every team in mAT.

 

Even funnier when someone made thread about 'there is no mesmers in mAT finals' someone who made the thread got nothing but hate, why this work for anything that not a mesmer? Being a hypocrite is fineeeeee

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"everyman.4375" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > This'll be my final post in this thread. I just wanted to point out that there were no scrappers on either team in the final round of NA Monthly AT:

> > >

> >

> > Well on EU we had a scrapper on almost every team in mAT.

>

> Even funnier when someone made thread about 'there is no mesmers in mAT finals' someone who made the thread got nothing but hate, why this work for anything that not a mesmer? Being a hypocrite is fineeeeee

 

Same thing crossed my mind when I read that.

Before: There were no mesmer in mAT - It doesn't matter, it's op and needs a nerf!

Now: There were no scrappers in mAT - it's proof it's not op!

 

Before: Balance should take into account the medium spectrum of players!

Now: Balance should take into account the top tier players only!

 

Before: Nerf mesmer core traits/skills to balance mirage!

Now: Don't nerf core traits/skills, nerf only elite ones!

 

And so on.

It's truly a delight to read these forums.

 

 

 

[Odik.4587]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"everyman.4375" said:

> > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > This'll be my final post in this thread. I just wanted to point out that there were no scrappers on either team in the final round of NA Monthly AT:

> > > >

> > >

> > > Well on EU we had a scrapper on almost every team in mAT.

> >

> > Even funnier when someone made thread about 'there is no mesmers in mAT finals' someone who made the thread got nothing but hate, why this work for anything that not a mesmer? Being a hypocrite is fineeeeee

>

> Same thing crossed my mind when I read that.

> Before: There were no mesmer in mAT - It doesn't matter, it's op and needs a nerf!

> Now: There were no scrappers in mAT - it's proof it's not op!

>

> Before: Balance should take into account the medium spectrum of players!

> Now: Balance should take into account the top tier players only!

>

> Before: Nerf mesmer core traits/skills to balance mirage!

> Now: Don't nerf core traits/skills, nerf only elite ones!

>

> And so on.

> It's truly a delight to read these forums.

Isnt its fun expose ppl hypocrisy ? I think it is

[Crab Fear.1624]

bunkers are not, never have been, and never will be healthy for the game.