Do warrior and elementalist really need to be pitied upon?

[Luna.6203]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > @"Luna.6203" said:

> > > @"Snellibee.2761" said:

> > > > @"Luna.6203" said:

> > > > There is my recent duel with elementalist. war vs ele. basically sustain vs sustain.. just for comparison damage and survivability.

> > > >

> > > > Important notice: I'm not really complain. It was friendly duel. Just for comparison.

> > > >

> > > > https://youtu.be/1dY9boTXzNk

> > > >

> > > > BTW @"Crystal Paladin.3871" the reason why warriors usually jump straight to battle is because we are melee class.

> > >

> > > You're not even dodging when you need to dodge, idk what this video is showing except your lack of skill in pvp?

> >

> > Well criticism is easy. Like when your team losing and you go idle and spam chat with insults how everyone is bad and that's the reason why team losing. Because revert situation would be hard. Go afk and blame others is easy. Type like you is elite-pro in chat/forum. 100% perfect dodge. Or people are used to watch youtubers that play for dozens of hours and than they cut few minutes duels when they win to make them look like they are perfect 100% win no mistakes. But in reality everyone do mistakes in pvp all time even the hardcore players. Which i'm not. It's like fight in movie and fight in real. It's not that easy and pretty how it looks like. Duel isnt really bad. Anyway you can always show me your pro video instead. Or meet me in arena. But i know right now you will refuse because only good player would accept that. While you are good / perfect in chat.

> >

> > And despite of who win you can see damage and healing capacity and that was point.

> >

> >

>

> Well, I kind of agree. Even with sage's or avatar's I usually stall warriors. Then it really depends on skill level and/or rampage (can I LoS quickly, have I saved some CD, can I afford to lose the point, stuff like that). From the pure dueling perspective a D/Sh spellbreaker is kind of even with a weaver. This changes with A/Sh, because weaver still doesn't have the damage to pressure enough while axe does significantly more damage - give it a try if you duel again. :smile:

>

> The main difference is the pure AoE damage. If a thief +1s a warrior (or a rev, whatever), the warrior scales quite well. Landing FC is much easier, burst skills as well, proccing more Adrenal health and dealing damage to both attackers. If the burst is dodged or avoides otherwise, a warrior can actually hit back - something ele clearly lacks and still is its main disadvantage.

>

> Duels are not the only relevant point. In the conquest setting, it's actually not very relevant at all (though, of course, to a certain level they are when it comes to class mechanics and knowing other classes).

>

> So: Warrior seems to be fine more or less. Ele needs buffs - and before @"apharma.3741" flames me, I mean "relative buffs". Nerfing the others (in a reasonable pace) seems just less likely to me. :tongue:

 

Personally i'm absolutely fine with warrior but i dont think we need more nerfs. And i don't think elementalist is bad as people think..it is even fight mostly. just my thoughts. And core warrior is definitely less powerful than spellbreaker. Core war is overrated becouse it's really easy to play and still pretty effective. While weaver is hard to play always. And tempest is maybe bad but berserker is even worse ;)

 

EDIT: BTW i should have not show video.

Because when i show lost fight im noob.

When i show fight where i win opponent will be called noob.

And despite of fact video is not about who win.

Everyone in this forum is top 10 pvp player. You can't argue with that.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

> @"Gundam Style.8495" said:

> no. neither are in need of buff, some classes need nerf

Indeed.

Rather adding more spam and damage to more professions, what we need is toning down the pace considering a lower baseline.

[otto.5684]

> @"Eugchriss.2046" said:

> > @"Yannir.4132" said:

> > Their traitlines need more hybridization so that you have the possibility of cramming both offense and defense into a build.

> **NO**. That's how you create S-tier classes like boonbeast. People should choose between a defensive or offensive build, not both at the same time.

>

 

No. You want every line to have defensive and offensive options. People should be able to mix and match between different trait lines. When you do what you said you get rev, the class with the worst build diversity and 1 PvP viable build.

[Yannir.4132]

> @"Eugchriss.2046" said:

> > @"Yannir.4132" said:

> > Their traitlines need more hybridization so that you have the possibility of cramming both offense and defense into a build.

> **NO**. That's how you create S-tier classes like boonbeast. People should choose between a defensive or offensive build, not both at the same time.

>

 

Sure, and that always turns out well... Look, there's extremes in all directions. Like Scrappers stacking barrier and being immune to conditions(all but a scourge level condi bomb) and having all boons in the game as a result of doing that. Or Deadeyes one-shotting people from Stealth and 1500 range.

There's no right way or right formula to balancing. It's all about individual choices, not over-simplifications like "traitlines should only cater to 1 kind of build". Boonbeast is the result of 2 broken traits with their interaction, and powercrept Stances. That's all it is, and has nothing to do with hybrid traitlines.

[Ralkuth.1456]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> facerollosmith

> LULbeast

 

I like your naming sense. B)

 

>! I played some Soulbeast before they surfaced as meta - mainly as a Sic Em Sniper. I was getting ok with it toward the end, not really great in 1v1s but knowing what targets to focus and rotating rapidly with Owl + Bambi. It was powerful but had limitations and I couldn't faceroll my way to Plat1 like I did on Druid (yes, I know I was definitely carried by that build).

>! And from that experience and recently getting into Warrior (and getting rolled by Warrior mains in 1v1s, plz don't fite me), I can feel that there's a lot to improve on and I can actually see if I'm learning my lessons.

>! Boonbeast doesn't help with learning any mechanic or 1v1 duelling sense, it's just like Bunker Druid where the pet and your traits/boons/abilities play the game for you. There's definitely the good players that can utilize the full potential but why try when you can literally faceroll?

>! I was quite impressed with the non-boon version of Melee Soulbeast when it first came out as a meme build, but I don't know what to feel about the new iteration.

>!

>! Is Holosmith too simple for Engineer mains? I missed out on a good part of PoF and didn't know how relevant Holosmith was to sPvP. Is it really faceroll?

[Snellibee.2761]

> @"Luna.6203" said:

> > @"Snellibee.2761" said:

> > > @"Luna.6203" said:

> > > There is my recent duel with elementalist. war vs ele. basically sustain vs sustain.. just for comparison damage and survivability.

> > >

> > > Important notice: I'm not really complain. It was friendly duel. Just for comparison.

> > >

> > > https://youtu.be/1dY9boTXzNk

> > >

> > > BTW @"Crystal Paladin.3871" the reason why warriors usually jump straight to battle is because we are melee class.

> >

> > You're not even dodging when you need to dodge, idk what this video is showing except your lack of skill in pvp?

>

> Well criticism is easy. Like when your team losing and you go idle and spam chat with insults how everyone is bad and that's the reason why team losing. Because revert situation would be hard. Go afk and blame others is easy. Type like you is elite-pro in chat/forum. 100% perfect dodge. Or people are used to watch youtubers that play for dozens of hours and than they cut few minutes duels when they win to make them look like they are perfect 100% win no mistakes. But in reality everyone do mistakes in pvp all time even the hardcore players. Which i'm not. It's like fight in movie and fight in real. It's not that easy and pretty how it looks like. Duel isnt really bad. Anyway you can always show me your pro video instead. Or meet me in arena. But i know right now you will refuse because only good player would accept that. While you are good / perfect in chat.

>

> And despite of who win you can see damage and healing capacity and that was point.

>

>

 

Looks like I struck a nerve aye

 

First of all, I never said you were a bad dueler. I said you play like a bad player in general.

Theres clear indications here of not having enough experience in pvp watching this video. One of the most obvious one was when you didn't dodge the ele's elite even though you had full endurance. I nearly pressed my dodge button and I wan't even playing but it was just instinct. You also never timed shield 4 and bull's charge with ele's evade frames. A good warrior can time it right so you can CC the ele, and a CC'd ele is a dead ele. You also really didn't use your movement skills to even try and kite away from his attacks, you played like you were a tank and facetanked all the skills he threw at you. That's why you lost the duel.

 

Second, dueling won't show who's better at pvp at all. Also you play a class specific for dueling whilst I play a class wich is made for +1 engagements. A duel would prove nothing in this scenario.

 

I'm sorry to break it to you but Weaver is literally a toned down version of Spellbreaker, they have like half your damage and half your damage resistance. Sure they can spam their evades faster than you can spam your iframes but a weaver who spams their evades will run out and be caught red handed.

 

PS: just rewatched it again and omg you literally stood still inside churning earth at 1:14 and didn't care about taking that damage. You could've switched to dagger/shield to block that

[Shala.8352]

warrior is okay. Only thing it has to be looked at is Rampage. It has too much CC, i am okay with trow rock CC, i am okay with that stomp CC, but should end there. Why he even has a bullscharge in rampage mode? that should work as a gap closer, not gap closer CC. Rampage is already giving warrior high sustain and high dmg, no need to have that uncounterable CC chain too.

Actualy Rampage is used as a "i've been outplayed in my duel, but i don't accept the lose" button.

[Mbelch.9028]

> @"Snellibee.2761" said:

> > @"Luna.6203" said:

> > > @"Snellibee.2761" said:

> > > > @"Luna.6203" said:

> > > > There is my recent duel with elementalist. war vs ele. basically sustain vs sustain.. just for comparison damage and survivability.

> > > >

> > > > Important notice: I'm not really complain. It was friendly duel. Just for comparison.

> > > >

> > > > https://youtu.be/1dY9boTXzNk

> > > >

> > > > BTW @"Crystal Paladin.3871" the reason why warriors usually jump straight to battle is because we are melee class.

> > >

> > > You're not even dodging when you need to dodge, idk what this video is showing except your lack of skill in pvp?

> >

> > Well criticism is easy. Like when your team losing and you go idle and spam chat with insults how everyone is bad and that's the reason why team losing. Because revert situation would be hard. Go afk and blame others is easy. Type like you is elite-pro in chat/forum. 100% perfect dodge. Or people are used to watch youtubers that play for dozens of hours and than they cut few minutes duels when they win to make them look like they are perfect 100% win no mistakes. But in reality everyone do mistakes in pvp all time even the hardcore players. Which i'm not. It's like fight in movie and fight in real. It's not that easy and pretty how it looks like. Duel isnt really bad. Anyway you can always show me your pro video instead. Or meet me in arena. But i know right now you will refuse because only good player would accept that. While you are good / perfect in chat.

> >

> > And despite of who win you can see damage and healing capacity and that was point.

> >

> >

>

> Looks like I struck a nerve aye

>

> First of all, I never said you were a bad dueler. I said you play like a bad player in general.

> Theres clear indications here of not having enough experience in pvp watching this video. One of the most obvious one was when you didn't dodge the ele's elite even though you had full endurance. I nearly pressed my dodge button and I wan't even playing but it was just instinct. You also never timed shield 4 and bull's charge with ele's evade frames. A good warrior can time it right so you can CC the ele, and a CC'd ele is a dead ele. You also really didn't use your movement skills to even try and kite away from his attacks, you played like you were a tank and facetanked all the skills he threw at you. That's why you lost the duel.

>

> Second, dueling won't show who's better at pvp at all. Also you play a class specific for dueling whilst I play a class wich is made for +1 engagements. A duel would prove nothing in this scenario.

>

> I'm sorry to break it to you but Weaver is literally a toned down version of Spellbreaker, they have like half your damage and half your damage resistance. Sure they can spam their evades faster than you can spam your iframes but a weaver who spams their evades will run out and be caught red handed.

>

> PS: just rewatched it again and omg you literally stood still inside churning earth at 1:14 and didn't care about taking that damage. You could've switched to dagger/shield to block that

 

You made me watch the video. Wow I cringed so hard. I'm trying to spam my dodge/interrupt button at my work desk. You can immediately tell the sad state of ele (even weaver) by seeing a warrior absolutely eat churning earth damage and shrug it off without bothering with their dodge bar.

 

Granted, this is a low tier duel, but Ele needs a higher amount of damage with lower amounts of evade frames. Outside of weaver, core ele just needs a massive redesign. It's not even fit for the game anymore.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

for ele, just up the base healing while lowering coefficients across the board already. keep all the support stuff the way it is ofc.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> you can just run in straight line and dodge every TELEGRAPHED cc warrior has. If you dodge a Warrior's attacks, you successfully dodged something, not like Mesmer shatter where you can LEGIT dodge for nothing because it's instant cast and you can't tell if the Mesmer will shatter or not.

 

What's more telegraphed that a big attack is imminent than several clones closing in? The notion that shatters are instant cast is misleading. Yes, there is no cast time to initiate the shatter, but unless the opponent is literally having a snuggle party with the clones, the time it takes for the clones to march over to their target, often staggered one by one, results in an effective "cast time". All of this is highly telegraphed, with time to react. Meanwhile, cleaves, AOEs, and autos are paper clones' worst enemies.

 

> Hell, hypothetically, if someone finds out a new Warrior meta right now and it's actually OP, I won't defend it. Not like Mesmer/Ranger mains do with their already privileged class.

 

I can think of one, maybe two, cyberbullied mesmer mains who maybe over-defend their class. The vast majority routinely call for appropriate nerfs and reworks, while trying to set misconceptions straight.

[Daishi.6027]

Everything that wasn't recently nerfed needs to be nerfed hard because power creep, right? lol

 

Pretty sure that's the excuse I heard a lot the past few seasons. lol

 

War is more or less fine, but I do think we have a maybe a bit to much bunk across the board now which I find is the most unhealthy thing for conquest. On that basis I would say they do better than some classes.

 

And

> @"Luna.6203" said:

> EDIT: BTW i should have not show video.

> Because when i show lost fight im noob.

> When i show fight where i win opponent will be called noob.

> And despite of fact video is not about who win.

> Everyone in this forum is top 10 pvp player. You can't argue with that.

 

You act like your basic mistakes aren't anything worth mentioning and get triggered when called out on it. No one needs to be top 10 to outplay what you have shown. Even when told basic stuff you get upset and pretend like you already have the game sense to understand what you are playing against, and how to respond; when your video evidence clearly shows you don't.

 

Personally I think it's good that you show videos of your fights, it's true a lot of people make more mistakes than they care to admit... However, and I'm sorry if you take offense to this; but those are a usually few offs, or well baited situations. You on the other hand in this video made a lot more than most dedicated players.

 

If you were approaching a topic in the context of: "this is me playing please help me improve" I don't think anyone would say anything negative and would probably be beneficial; however, **the problem here is: you are using this as evidence in a topic about balance**, where your mistakes can discredit the validity of whatever the video is trying to prove. Worst still you double down on it and imply that these mistakes are unreasonable to criticize.

 

Ego is like cholesterol, you'd do best to reduce some and focus on improving. I'm sorry you feel dismissed and probably attacked, but please keep in mind how lack of ability should NEVER, and A-net willing- will NEVER be a basis for balance.

(admittedly A-net drops the ball a few times in this area, but that isn't something to strive for.)

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"Luna.6203" said:

> > @"Snellibee.2761" said:

> > > @"Luna.6203" said:

> > > There is my recent duel with elementalist. war vs ele. basically sustain vs sustain.. just for comparison damage and survivability.

> > >

> > > Important notice: I'm not really complain. It was friendly duel. Just for comparison.

> > >

> > > https://youtu.be/1dY9boTXzNk

> > >

> > > BTW @"Crystal Paladin.3871" the reason why warriors usually jump straight to battle is because we are melee class.

> >

> > You're not even dodging when you need to dodge, idk what this video is showing except your lack of skill in pvp?

>

> Well criticism is easy. Like when your team losing and you go idle and spam chat with insults how everyone is bad and that's the reason why team losing. Because revert situation would be hard. Go afk and blame others is easy. Type like you is elite-pro in chat/forum. 100% perfect dodge. Or people are used to watch youtubers that play for dozens of hours and than they cut few minutes duels when they win to make them look like they are perfect 100% win no mistakes. But in reality everyone do mistakes in pvp all time even the hardcore players. Which i'm not. It's like fight in movie and fight in real. It's not that easy and pretty how it looks like. Duel isnt really bad. Anyway you can always show me your pro video instead. Or meet me in arena. But i know right now you will refuse because only good player would accept that. While you are good / perfect in chat.

>

> And despite of who win you can see damage and healing capacity and that was point.

>

>

 

Yeah but all you do is make mistakes in that fight. Not sure why you would try to show a video like that as evidence that Weaver can be over-bearing or...whatever you were trying to accomplish. If you are aware enough to acknowledge that you made mistakes in that fight then other people will be much more aware, especially those who might be much more familiar in that kind of matchup vs better opponents.

 

Your build also isn't terribly suited for actually winning that fight. Sure you're more built for sustain, as dagger shield Spellbreaker tends to be, but Dagger has lacked damage ever since they nerfed it about like...6 or more months ago? That isn't going to put much of a dent into a Weaver, especially sword weaver, even with Magebane and boon rip.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Warrior fine,Ele needs buffs

[AlexPlay.8436]

> @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > @"Luna.6203" said:

> > > @"Snellibee.2761" said:

> > > > @"Luna.6203" said:

> > > > There is my recent duel with elementalist. war vs ele. basically sustain vs sustain.. just for comparison damage and survivability.

> > > >

> > > > Important notice: I'm not really complain. It was friendly duel. Just for comparison.

> > > >

> > > > https://youtu.be/1dY9boTXzNk

> > > >

> > > > BTW @"Crystal Paladin.3871" the reason why warriors usually jump straight to battle is because we are melee class.

> > >

> > > You're not even dodging when you need to dodge, idk what this video is showing except your lack of skill in pvp?

> >

> > Well criticism is easy. Like when your team losing and you go idle and spam chat with insults how everyone is bad and that's the reason why team losing. Because revert situation would be hard. Go afk and blame others is easy. Type like you is elite-pro in chat/forum. 100% perfect dodge. Or people are used to watch youtubers that play for dozens of hours and than they cut few minutes duels when they win to make them look like they are perfect 100% win no mistakes. But in reality everyone do mistakes in pvp all time even the hardcore players. Which i'm not. It's like fight in movie and fight in real. It's not that easy and pretty how it looks like. Duel isnt really bad. Anyway you can always show me your pro video instead. Or meet me in arena. But i know right now you will refuse because only good player would accept that. While you are good / perfect in chat.

> >

> > And despite of who win you can see damage and healing capacity and that was point.

> >

> >

>

> Yeah but all you do is make mistakes in that fight. Not sure why you would try to show a video like that as evidence that Weaver can be over-bearing or...whatever you were trying to accomplish. If you are aware enough to acknowledge that you made mistakes in that fight then other people will be much more aware, especially those who might be much more familiar in that kind of matchup vs better opponents.

>

> Your build also isn't terribly suited for actually winning that fight. Sure you're more built for sustain, as dagger shield Spellbreaker tends to be, but Dagger has lacked damage ever since they nerfed it about like...6 or more months ago? That isn't going to put much of a dent into a Weaver, especially sword weaver, even with Magebane and boon rip.

 

 

Agree, he did not evade churning earth several times (!), it's long 2s casting time, absolutely visible, feels like a lack of knowledge what weaver does,

also not enough offence, weaver soon will run out of CD under pressure and will die easily during a stun