Hey Non WvWers, what turns you off about WvW?

[Turkeyspit.3965]

Seeing a lot of comments about Commanders, and for zerg play, guild or open, yes the commander will make a huge difference. I honestly don't think I would be playing WvW as much as I am currently if my server didn't have as many quality commanders willing to run open raids as it does. Some have transferred off sadly, but I can still log in during different time periods and find a commander who is at least capable, and also not as toxic as some of the descriptions above.

 

I don't have any advice for you if your server + link are chalk full of kittenhead commanders. But I would encourage you to add any commanders you enjoyed running with to your friends list, so you can see when they log on, and take that opportunity to jump into WvW and join their squad.

 

Now while I still don't agree with some comments I've seen on this subject, there is a belief in the community that the reason there are so few commanders around, even fewer of which are nice, is because many players got fed up trying to lead pug raids. So keep that in mind when you log in, and try to be part of the solution.

 

These are some of the main complaints I've heard/seen from other commanders:

 

- If the commander wants everyone on comms, get on comms. Discord/TS don't take long to install, and 99% of commanders don't care if you have a mic, they just want you to be able to hear instructions so they don't need to type.

 

- Follow the tag. Doesn't matter if you see a Dolyak in the distance and you need it for your daily. Do that before / after you leave the squad. The commander is leading, and follow their lead. You would be surprised at the impact a single player running too close to a sentry and marking the whole squad can have. I know from experience. If the commander stops, don't go ahead of them. Maybe they are trying to hide the squad, whatever. Let them lead. If this idea doesn't sit well with you, then you probably shouldn't try to join a squad.

 

- Stay on tag. Seems like I'm repeating myself, but the truth is the #1 problem everyone commander has is players not standing on tag. A large percentage of wipes I've been in could have been avoided had all the players just stayed on tag, in range of heals/boons, grouping up to mitigate the damage of AoE attacks, and pushing forward or dodging out of bombs as a group.

 

 

 

[Rauderi.8706]

Main reasons I loathe WvW:

 

1. Also known as Walk v Walk. The downtime between doing things is just too long, and some commanders are just impatient. This has gotten worse with Warclaw. That downtime is also painful when trying to maintain participation for rewards/pips.

2. Imbalance. Population imbalance, class imbalance. Hard CC *still* doesn't have some sort of decreasing gains like other top-tier MMOs.

3. "Community" for WvW is just unpleasant. ANet *tries* to give them attention, but the slightest change makes the vocal players whinge like nothing else.

4. Side note: Out of Combat range is far too short.

[DaFishBob.6518]

> @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> I would like to know if anybody have any ideas or solutions to the main complaint I see in this thread which is the Zerg vs Zerg focused pvp. How to address this problem?

 

I would say that there needs to be an incentive to split people up from a zerg. Zerging is almost always the most rewarding activity in WvW for wxp, participation, and drops. The only time it isn't is when a zerg somehow fails to kill anyone. The only incentive to split is to obtain, upgrade, and defend objectives that give no real pay out to the individuals doing these things compared to a zerg flipping objectives, crushing small groups, or clashing with other zergs.

 

The fact that every objective capture resembles dynamic events that require you to stand in a circle for an indeterminate amount of time makes this even worse, to know how bad this kind of event is, think of the Zintl Holy Grounds meta in Sparkfly Fen where you stand in a circle for about 5 minutes in order to stand in another circle for about 5 minutes in order to stand in _**another circle**_ for about 5 minutes. SPvP people know this as "circle quest." More people actually speed this annoying timer up so +1 more reason to zerg over anything else.

 

Something I've considered to help with this is giving every objective dynamic events that can be triggered for the side that owns the objective which will reward participants and encourage them to hold objectives. The events could be something like sparring with guards in a tower or keep or gathering materials for a camp, anything besides holding a circle against the enemy player that ran past an objective guard for 3 minutes in order to be rewarded with nothing.

[Rook.5143]

Been playing now for a few years and only recently decided to drop into WvW. I'm old (50ish) and my hands are knackered so I wasn't expecting to be any good. It was fun, even though I got cheesed 9 times out of 10, but it was fun up to a point.

Sufficed to say if, it was played out as a Warhammer table top campaign or as a board game it would be pretty dull.

 

I have a **personal** opinion as to why it isn't more popular and I emphasize 'personal' strongly as I know how dedicated players can be to certain modes and the fact that I am not up to speed with WvW by a long long shot means I am probably talking out of my posterior.

 

If I was highlight what put **me** off playing WvW with more dedication than I have, it would be:

 

1) You pound away at someone and knock their health down a ton, next minute and one heal later they are back on full. I think healing should only restore a minor percentage of health. It gives a reason to have Druids, Elementalists, Guardians etc in groups. A player may suck at PvP (like me), but they might be excellent at keeping the group alive. There are a number of reasons why full, or near full heal is detrimental but I think the limiting of possible play styles is the main one. Battlefields need medics yet at the moment they seem to be a redundant option.

 

2) Why don't Engineers start with the bonus of being able to carry double the supply and build siege equipment at twice the speed? Also, why don't they do bonus damage with siege gear.? They are Engineers after all. Again, a PvE player who is no good at PvP may play more if they had something a party needed and could feel useful to the whole. Keeping Engineers/Healers safe from assassins until the target was reached would be a rush in itself. Enemy roamers would have a descent challenge in attempting to pick them off.

 

3) You get nothing for **holding a position**. To me **personally** this is a flaw in WvW. There is absolutely minimal reason for players to garrison a captured point. I don't see why there is any reason for not having a minimal exp tick, over time, for those holding a position, an exp tick that can be increased by building defenses.

 

4) Instant respawn back at base. There should be a small delay.

 

5) The mount is just 404 and completely misses a useful purpose. It should be cavalry so that players can form cav guilds. PvE mounts have skill slots so why can't the cat have slots for a lance or a bow with options to target enemy mount or target enemy mounted player. Add to this the skill slot to knock back or knock down unmounted players (with minimal or no damage) you have something that may open the door for adding the ability to craft barding for yourself or your guild as well as other gear. To identify it as a 4 legged siege engine is just pants.

 

6) There is no absolute victory condition. If I was to design it as a tabletop war-game I would start out with only two sides, not three (three is manageable, but it would slow things down a ton). Each side would have a limited number of assets to be captured. Capture of all assets would allow the main spawn to be assaulted and conquered resulting in ultimate defeat. If, during that assault a team of Thieves, Mesmers etc took back one of their captured points, the final assault would be off until that point was reacquired. This in itself would reduce the size of blobs because to leave points unmanned would threaten a future victory. If ultimate victory is achieved then bonus exp/rewards could be allocated accordingly and the battlefield reset.

The map itself would be split with rivers, ravines, defiles etc but with only one or two major crossing points to allow the assaulting of bridgeheads by large numbers of troops (zerg). Infiltration of enemy territory could be done by narrow access points like defiles that would be hazardous to blobs because they would be deadly choke points.

 

The main point is, is that currently there is no ultimate/desirable goal for the battles and no room to allow other duties for player with no/minimal PvP skill and no desire to play to a specific limited build set, which to deviate from would render their participation redundant. GW2 has so many classes and builds that could enhance the strategy and direction of WvW, yet the bare minimum work.

Zergs are cool, roamers are cool, one shot stealth builds are cool, but what is not cool is the fact that in the arena of WvW they have no victory to fight for. No river crossing to take and hold. No outpost to infiltrate and sack before allies arrive to garrison and reinforce. No cavalry to hamper, delay and misdirect. No purpose except their own. Etc etc etc.

 

This is what put me off. I had no direction. No ultimate goal. No sense of value in the class I actually like to play.

 

Sorry for the wall of text :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jemmi.6058]

> @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> Hey Non WvWers, what turns you off about WvW? And what may get you interested in playing it more often?

 

What turns me off about WvW is the PvP. What would get me interested in playing it is no PvP.

[8235E844-3CC1-4724-8B86-45]

WvW is quite boring content. It appeals to an older player that dreamed of such a thing as a kid. It literally doesn't appeal to anyone else because it is poorly balanced pvp. The pvp isn't even this games selling point as it was with GW1. TLDR: waifu wars would rather hang out in Aerodrome and So would I. WvW should just be left, using resources to balance that mess just shows where the development team is at: solidifying any niche so they can do less work in the future and still make money.

Is actually abit depressing.

 

[Ipomoea Jalapa.6897]

I'm one of the players without much PvP competitive spirit. I've always been a co-op mode gamer. There are of course some cool cooperative aspects in WvW, but my main frustration is having to waypoint way far away almost every time I run across an enemy player while roaming. I'm really only interested in PVE builds and tactics, so I tend to die quickly. I don't mind the actual dying part---I'm happy to help beef up someone else's rewards :)---but it makes for a really tedious play session to be starting over from a home waypoint again and again. I enjoy glomming on to PUG zergs sometimes, but I don't feel very productive and would sort of prefer to be roaming on my own where I can follow whims and go at my own pace. Occasionally I get lucky and defeat another roamer I run into, but I sorta feel bad, cuz jeez, they must have even less competitive spirit than I do, lol. I know a lot of people dabble in WvW for the rewards that are either exclusive to WvW or a lot less expensive there, and shucks, I've just ganked one of them.

[Daddicus.6128]

The title doesn't completely apply to me. I play WvW every day for the dailies.

 

But, I don't play it any longer than I have to to earn the rewards. The biggest reason is because people almost never rally the downed. An army shouldn't just let its wounded soldiers die.

 

It also bothers me that I can't get good enough to defeat players by myself. Oh, yeah, occasionally I win a battle or two. But, I'm way to old to have the reflexes to actually be competitive with most players.

[trev.1045]

Being new and clueless and not wanting to annoy people who love their because of that

Being a ranger- when apparently they are unwanted in wvw (i could boost a char i guess)

 

Honestly? i loved BG - but i had years of practice and was competent and knew them.

[DietPepsi.4371]

Same reason I don't play PvP: Lack of balance. The build I use works fine in PvE (Power, Precision, Ferocity Warrior with a rifle), but warrior rifle just doesn't fit into the PvP and WvW meta.

 

It's a build I enjoy using that also doesn't make use of obnoxious special effects, and if it isn't meta in those game modes then I won't play them. Because I won't be enjoying myself using a build I don't enjoy.

[ShinjoNaomi.1896]

The community, mostly.

I'm a fairly casual player, and I realize that if I step foot in a PvP mode, I'm going to have other players attack me.

That's PvP.

But when when I get curb-stomped by someone with a flavor-of-the-month cheese build, then get hate mail from them telling me I should kill myself, and /then/ get more verbal vomit slung at me from my own team...

That's not PvP. That's just abuse that I don't feel like dealing with.

So I don't.

Combine that crappy attitude with AoE spam and meta-build abuse and you have a game mode that I personally wish would just vanish.

 

And no, I can't think of anything that would seriously make me want to WvW or PvP in general.

In all honesty, if you like that sort of thing, all the more power to you.

I do not. The PvP 'community' (not just in this game, but seemingly everywhere for over a decade) has made sure that people like me will never enjoy it.

It might just be a few bad apples, but they have done a good job of spoiling the whole bunch...

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I WvW sometimes. Sparingly. I do have a couple of issues with it in general:

 

1: The financial barrier to entry. See, I main Rev in WvW not because I particularly want to, but because you can run around in full zerker gear while doing basically anything WvW demands. Other professions... you can't really do that. They have multiple builds for multiple roles, and sometimes you'll have multiple builds for the same role. Surprisingly few of those builds can be transitioned over from PVE. So, to play other professions, I would have to get more and more full ascended sets for each toon. These builds are transient in their nature, which makes me reluctant to spend any gold.

 

2: It gets boring after awhile. Balance patches make things interesting only for a short while, but otherwise we're doing the same thing we've always done for years now. Zerg up, build siege, sneak around to grab camps. Rinse and repeat.

[trev.1045]

> @"ShinjoNaomi.1896" said:

> The community, mostly.

> I'm a fairly casual player, and I realize that if I step foot in a PvP mode, I'm going to have other players attack me.

> That's PvP.

> But when when I get curb-stomped by someone with a flavor-of-the-month cheese build, then get hate mail from them telling me I should kill myself, and /then/ get more verbal vomit slung at me from my own team...

> That's not PvP. That's just abuse that I don't feel like dealing with.

> So I don't.

> Combine that crappy attitude with AoE spam and meta-build abuse and you have a game mode that I personally wish would just vanish.

>

> And no, I can't think of anything that would seriously make me want to WvW or PvP in general.

> In all honesty, if you like that sort of thing, all the more power to you.

> I do not. The PvP 'community' (not just in this game, but seemingly everywhere for over a decade) has made sure that people like me will never enjoy it.

> It might just be a few bad apples, but they have done a good job of spoiling the whole bunch...

 

That sounds worse than PVP even in wow....

[Cobrakon.3108]

From the depth of my soul I will not tolerate any sort of Rock Paper Scissor balance and super sustain builds. Every class should be able to beat every other class in a reasonable amount of time. Why would you torture yourself if you want to be the absolute best against other people in a pvp but the balance cuts your hands and feet off in certain 1v1 situations? Give me Street Fighter level of balance or I wont touch that mode with a 10 foot pole.

 

The only truly rewarding thing to do is become a highly listened to commander for your server and/or large guild and create strategic advantages gaining territory even when your outnumbered.

 

But ya if you like being a cog in the machine, then you'll think WvW is great.

[MoriMoriMori.5349]

> @"Rook.5143" said:

> 3) You get nothing for **holding a position**. To me **personally** this is a flaw in WvW. There is absolutely minimal reason for players to garrison a captured point. I don't see why there is any reason for not having a minimal exp tick, over time, for those holding a position, an exp tick that can be increased by building defenses.

There is problem with whole "holding position / garrison" thing - that means you need to **station** live people there, usually. And people most of the time are not even a little bit happy about staying somewhere in backline, away from the fight they came here for, in the first place. They get bored and start to leave the defensive position, or the game mode itself. It's just no fun, you don't know when some fun will come your way. Will it be in 5 minutes? In 20 minutes? Never, until your side wins? People left there will get impatient and salty.

[mtpelion.4562]

> @"MoriMoriMori.5349" said:

> > @"Rook.5143" said:

> > 3) You get nothing for **holding a position**. To me **personally** this is a flaw in WvW. There is absolutely minimal reason for players to garrison a captured point. I don't see why there is any reason for not having a minimal exp tick, over time, for those holding a position, an exp tick that can be increased by building defenses.

> There is problem with whole "holding position / garrison" thing - that means you need to **station** live people there, usually. And people most of the time are not even a little bit happy about staying somewhere in backline, away from the fight they came here for, in the first place. They get bored and start to leave the defensive position, or the game mode itself. It's just no fun, you don't know when some fun will come your way. Will it be in 5 minutes? In 20 minutes? Never, until your side wins? People left there will get impatient and salty.

 

They should have little mini events at all defense locations and if you do them you should be able to get up to full participation. Also, if you have been defending for a certain number of minutes, you should get a reward (not a full reward, but something) every time your team takes a new location as a "thanks for defending which allowed us to go take this camp/tower/keep".

[MoriMoriMori.5349]

> @"Cobrakon.3108" said:

> Why would you torture yourself if you want to be the absolute best against other people in a pvp but the balance cuts your hands and feet off in certain 1v1 situations? Give me Street Fighter level of balance or I wont touch that mode with a 10 foot pole.

Because WvW is **group** PvP content first of all, with all due respect. Your criticism may be well-grounded for some duels, but has little appliance to WvW, as you are expected to build a balanced **team** which will have to defeat another **team**. And any rock-paper-scissor issues will be dissolved in the pool of players in a well-rounded team, different builds / professions will cover up vulnerabilities of their teammates. Ideally, it should work like this, and it works like this more or less well in case of roaming squads in WvW.

 

[MoriMoriMori.5349]

> @"mtpelion.4562" said:

> They should have little mini events at all defense locations and if you do them you should be able to get up to full participation. Also, if you have been defending for a certain number of minutes, you should get a reward (not a full reward, but something) every time your team takes a new location as a "thanks for defending which allowed us to go take this camp/tower/keep".

 

That may justify it for somebody who comes to WvW to farm rewards, but I guess for majority of people there the fight with other players itself is what is much more important than reward. Or they wouldn't be playing PvP in the first place on regular basis. So in the end you are risking to have all your defense garrisons consisting of PvE-tourists which only care about getting some reward and die like flies when attacked by a small squad of seasoned players :D Or worse than that, some bots or afk farmers which won't even try to defend it. Also a big question whether there will be enough players willing to split from the zerg just for that kind of.. gameplay.

[MoriMoriMori.5349]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Surprisingly few of those builds can be transitioned over from PVE. So, to play other professions, I would have to get more and more full ascended sets for each toon.

What, why? Ascended gear gives you very little stat boosts, comparing to exotic, to the point it's totally insignificant and your ability to play your profession becomes times more important. But even this little difference will be totally neglected when you are a part of zerg. Your 1-2% of lost **mechanical** efficiency (i.e. "golem DPS", which means very little in realistic fight) will be totally overshadowed by zerg's insane total DPS.

 

[Taelac.7036]

Mostly, it's the toxicity for me. Trying to keep an eye on /map or /squad chat and finding more pointless arguments than helpful or useful information most times leaves me feeling vaguely irritated every time I think about popping into WvW, rather than excited to play the game mode. It's not like there aren't good commanders or friendly folk, given that I often will friend people to be more easily able to rejoin them later and set a WvW related nickname, but I find that only happens about once every half dozen times I'm in the game mode, while I routinely end up blocking a half a dozen obnoxious trolls every time I go in. That's not really a great ratio, given that I play the game to relax, not to watch a rerun of everything I hated about middle school, lo, these million years ago or so.

 

The other thing that turns me off is the lack of incentive to defend objectives. A couple of weeks ago, I held Crankshaft Depot solo against a group of three attackers (that became a group of two attackers when the one I killed early didn't return), and all I got for it was my T6 participation dropping to zero, since burning down their siege didn't reset the timer, and they were able to keep each other alive. Hazards of playing at off hours and the zerg being busy on the home borderland, but it was pretty disappointing to come off the flush of making them give up only to find out that I had to start over again on skirmish progress.

 

I am intrigued by the notion of profession-specific bonuses as with the suggestion above for an engineer to get a supply bonus. I'm sure that would require a lot of thought toward what would help make less-desired professions more desirable without creating new balance problems, but it would be an _interesting_ feature if it could be pulled off. That might be worth its own thread.

[Rook.5143]

> @"MoriMoriMori.5349" said:

> > @"Rook.5143" said:

> > 3) You get nothing for **holding a position**. To me **personally** this is a flaw in WvW. There is absolutely minimal reason for players to garrison a captured point. I don't see why there is any reason for not having a minimal exp tick, over time, for those holding a position, an exp tick that can be increased by building defenses.

> There is problem with whole "holding position / garrison" thing - that means you need to **station** live people there, usually. And people most of the time are not even a little bit happy about staying somewhere in backline, away from the fight they came here for, in the first place. They get bored and start to leave the defensive position, or the game mode itself. It's just no fun, you don't know when some fun will come your way. Will it be in 5 minutes? In 20 minutes? Never, until your side wins? People left there will get impatient and salty.

 

As the format stands at the moment, the idea is useless because flipping the point holds no substantial benefit. If, as I said in my post, if you had a 'total victory' condition that required that outpost to be taken, then afk'ing would not be possible due to the threat of total defeat for your side. Not to mention, for it to work this way, you could only have a few capture points or the game would stagnate or move at a crawl.

The point is to make forts and other outposts highly desirable real estate which currently they aren't. If anything they are just a bump in the road on the way to the next big blitz.

At the end of the day, the idea/ideas might totally suck in actual game-play, but it is fun to bounce them around :)

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @"MoriMoriMori.5349" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > Surprisingly few of those builds can be transitioned over from PVE. So, to play other professions, I would have to get more and more full ascended sets for each toon.

> What, why? Ascended gear gives you very little stat boosts, comparing to exotic, to the point it's totally insignificant and your ability to play your profession becomes times more important. But even this little difference will be totally neglected when you are a part of zerg. Your 1-2% of lost **mechanical** efficiency (i.e. "golem DPS", which means very little in realistic fight) will be totally overshadowed by zerg's insane total DPS.

>

 

It's 10% in DPS alone, let alone the higher armor rating.

[Ghostof Luzifer.6159]

I have tried to get into WVW basically since launch... The gamemode has the potential for amazing pvp, but the current one blob zerg fest is just soo boring. I dont like big zerg fights. It does not feel that I can do enough of an impact in them. I think anet should encourage small scale fighting= 5-15 players + roaming.

 

Make defending matter. Defending should be very easy, so that attackers have to split up attack at muliple locations etc. Bring some strategy and coordination to WVW Winning a keep etc should be therefor rewarded way higher aswell.

Roaming could be encoouraged by spanning a random area that needs to be captured which gives your world bonuses, points etc.. Furthermore camps should matter more and should be able to be recaptured by the current camp holder

 

Bring back guild pride. Turn wvw into the G U I LD WARS

 

all of these changes need finetuning and balance etc but I think these would make WVW much more fun!

[Donari.5237]

The only thing that can get me into WvW is a strong enough carrot that I cannot get in non-PvP play, and I have to say that there does not currently seem to be such a carrot. I've done PvP, in this game and others. I've even had fun with it on occasion, when in a largish group of friends with voice chat coordination so I could feel like someone had my back (even better when the other side is also made of a group of my friends so it becomes a friendly situation where we enjoy beating each other up to serve a larger RP plot purpose). But I do not thrill to the idea that a random person could come screaming out of the night and murder me at any moment. A few minutes in a WvW map exhausts me as if it were hours in PvE. I love GW2 for the fact that it makes me happy to see other players. PvP by definition makes me very unhappy to see them.

 

Back in college I tried playing Killer for a few days. (Dunno if that's still a thing -- back then in the 80's it involved signing up, then carrying a little plastic-disk-shooting gun around and murdering any other player you saw). I couldn't eat right since I was exposed at the commons, couldn't study, couldn't concentrate on anything, couldn't just enjoy a walk through the campus. I quit. The same stress comes from PvP.

 

So what would make me play WvW on a sustained basis? I really don't think anything would. Even wanting the Warclaw I've yet to do the tasks for it since I'm waiting on friends to want to work on it same time as me. I've made one legendary, using a Gift of Battle I bought with badges back when you could do that, and those badges came mostly from AP chests. I have no more GoB's and it seems likely I will never make another legendary due to my deep disinterest in spending time in WvW. I appreciate others enjoying it, I have guildies that like to chatter about it and since I did play it a bit back in the first year of the game I understand what they're saying. It's just not for me.

[Gehenna.3625]

I normally don't play WvW but I have been for the last couple of months. I needed a gift of battle for my bow and so I decided to bite the bullet. Now, by itself it's relatively fun and I am still playing now because I saw the triumphant reward track as something useful to me. Getting exotics that I can pick stats for is great. So I am unlocking all three sets and also will craft an ascended set via this path because it's easier than normal crafting. But once I've done that, which may take another month or so, I will probably quit doing WvW, except just some quick dailies maybe cause some of them are pretty quick.

 

But I don't care as much about the WvW itself as I wish I would. And here are the reasons why it's still not a long term thing for me or something to really get into:

1) Class balance is complete garbage. This is visible in both zergs / blobs and in 1 vs 1 fights. There are a few meta builds that various servers use that are all about aoe and they do lots of it. If you do not do this yourself, you're screwed. I really hate that it's always the same 3 classes or rather specs that dominate and the rest being trash by comparison. It also leads to groups not wanting you if you play something else. Depends a bit on the group but it does happen. For solo roaming I notice that there are some classes / specs that overperform again there in 1v1. I really get tired of some classes having ALL the tricks. You know like stealth and perma-evasion and insane movement. Again it forces you to use certain classes or you're screwed. I do get tired of running into certain players that I simply cannot damage or barely and that always seem to return a couple of seconds later from stealth or running away because they're faster (I have a 25% boost but that means squat apparently) and be fully healed again. I get there's player skill involved as well but there is no doubt in my mind that that handful of meta specs is just a lot better than the rest. I do win more 1v1 battles these days then before but there's certain specs I just really can't do anything against and they are obviously favored.

2) WvWvW. Well it's actually three realms fighting each other and the problem I see there regularly is two sides ganging up on the third side. Since each side presumably has the same cap for player amounts that's a situation that you just can't win against. It's not really fun when this happens. But because there are some guilds that have picked fights with each other and some moved to other servers, these fights end up causing this sort of crap which also annoys me. All in all the threeway design of WvW might come with some advantages but the disadvantages are there as well.

3) Repetition. All in all the maps are what they are. Have been for years I guess but it's always the same things you're doing. You either follow a commander in a zerg or you roam picking off similar targets. I don't think the maps and player levels really lend themselves to more strategy. And after capping so many camps and towers etc. there's a point I reach where I'm like...why still do this? By the time I got a couple of camps flipped someone already started flipping them back. To me it doesn't really feel like you get anywhere. That's why I do it just for the rewards and given up on map control and such.

 

Now those are the main gripes I have. There are also positives but the thread asked specifically about what turns people off, so there it is :)