Vancho.8750 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Is it me or when they nerfed the defensive passives the game became more spammy and oneshoty, more about apm or i would dare say aps then carefully choosing your next ability. Didn't really matter if it was condition or power you get hit by 10 skills at once, you get grazed little bit by big aoe condifield at end of your dodge 5 conditions, you get stunlocked dead, or overloaded by cc conditions dead. Free stomps by dodging while stomping, gyro stomp, invuln stomp, invisibility stomp(don't get me started how broken design this is on this boon, it literally the worst way to implement invisibility) . On the other side we have easy resurrect on guardian, necro, ranger and you chose to whine about Warrior sprint cause you couldn't use blind instead of immobile vs Rampage. Do you know the funny part i expect Anet to nerf it cause this tread got so much traction and nobody will bother to read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"Vancho.8750" said: > Is it me or when they nerfed the defensive passives the game became more spammy and oneshoty, more about apm or i would dare say aps then carefully choosing your next ability. Didn't really matter if it was condition or power you get hit by 10 skills at once, you get grazed little bit by big aoe condifield at end of your dodge 5 conditions, you get stunlocked dead, or overloaded by cc conditions dead. Free stomps by dodging while stomping, gyro stomp, invuln stomp, invisibility stomp(don't get me started how broken design this is on this boon, it literally the worst way to implement invisibility) . On the other side we have easy resurrect on guardian, necro, ranger and you chose to whine about Warrior sprint cause you couldn't use blind instead of immobile vs Rampage. > Do you know the funny part i expect Anet to nerf it cause this tread got so much traction and nobody will bother to read it. It's just you, all those things are consequences of powercreep since 2015, not of nerfing passive lifesaving traits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > Warrior sprint getting an ICD would be a shave, but pandering to garbage arguments and bronze level players won't get us anywhere. > > Here is the catch, Immobilize is just USELESS. It's good vs. bad players but it is legit the most useless condition now in the game when some classes have like 33% slow reduction on their traits. You can nerf Warrior Sprint but still get trolled by Dogged March for example. And there are negative duration condition food on WvW (pultry leak soup) > > Hard CC is better, boon corruption is better, flat out killing the Warrior is better. Don't nerf something because you're using an underpowered condition to counter it. Yeah, immob is bad. Warrior's sprint is part of, but far from the only reason for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"Mbelch.9028" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > Savage Leap: 600 Units > > Whirlwind Attack: 450 Units > > Rush: 1200 Units > > Bull's Charge: 900 Units > > Seismic Leap: 600 Units > > Dash: 1000 Units > > Whirlwind Attack: 450 Units > > Savage Leap: 600 Units > > > > = 5,800 units of movement in about 10 seconds. > > > >...... > > All of these warrior skills are going to ignore movement impairing effects like chill and cripple by their nature as movement skills, and with Warrior's Sprint they're breaking immobilization every time. Heck DP Daredevil has to eat Exhausting for 4 seconds when it breaks immobilization. > > > > When people hated on the original Sword+Torch / Staff Ineptitude Condition Mirage Builds because they were too capable of disengaging while being one of the best 1v1 specs they had about 4,950 units of disengage. > > > > Phase Retreat: 600 Units > > Sword Ambush: 600 Units > > Sword Ambush: 600 Units > > Distortion Sword Ambush with Desert Distortion: 600 Units > > Blink: 1200 > > Jaunt X 3: 1350 > > > > =4,950 units of movement speed. > > > > Nice of you to put every single movement skill in a warrior's kit (if they're using a sword, which MOST do not). I'm assuming we're comparing ability to get to a point at the start of a match, because if you're trying to disengage from a fight, nearly none of what you typed is realistic. > > In a race to the first to a point, I totally agree, Warrior has top tier mobility. But it can't fight a clean fight thereafter. Especially after blowing a 72-second cooldown skill for two bits of mobility (1600 units). > > The reality is that every skill you mentioned in a warrior's kit is used to... do damage or gap close. If a warrior can't get to its target, it's a sitting duck, and it's useless/dead. If a warrior can't do damage, it's a sitting duck, and it's useless/dead. > > It may be shocking for a mesmer to learn, I know, but whereas all of the skills you listed for mesmer are used to disengage or in a rare scenario gap close, a Warrior doesn't have the luxury of ports (half of what you listed) nor does it have the luxury of clones or stealth. Warriors have no skills that are purely designed for fleeing, perhaps outside of Savage Leap, which I already established is not really used in the meta right now. I'm going to say it again. Warriors need these skills you've mentioned to be effective in any way. Spellbreakers didn't always run maximum mobility builds. They ran defense with 3 stances for a majority of Path of Fire and skilled Spellbreakers, could still win fights, still get kills, and still disengage just through good use of terrain and with their already solid disengage with Greatsword. It's just that once every warrior started running Strength their level of disengage is almost untouchable. Things changed not because of nerfs to defense warriors, but between Peak Performance and the buffs to Bull's Charge, Rampage and Might Make Right's Synergy with Magebane Tether, they don't need to spec defensive to survive anymore. They have tons of sustain, can drop 8-10k crits on people with arcing slice and whirlwind blade once they've ramped up their might and have absolutely top tier disengage potential even without blinks. No one needs all 5,800 units of movement to disengage. No one is going to chase you once you've blitzed 2,400 units ahead of them unless they are so outrageously kill crazy they're a liability to their team. No one is going to catch a Strength Spellbreaker when they really want to get away from a fight. It's simple math. And your complaints about "Oh well not every single movement skill will be up because I might need them for a fight!" is true of literally every build. Everyone is going to be pressured to use movement skills, and defensive options as a fight goes on. You can talk about blinks, and yes they absolutely do have their advantages in that they open up pathways to go not everyone can easily follow. But even without those pathways opened up to them Spellbreakers right now have leagues more movement than other classes except thief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > @"Punny.9210" said: > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > > > > Run Warrior's Sprint on berserker an tell me does it change much. The core traits are not only for the the current meta speck. Most people do not enjoy touching the core traitlines and i give as example Berserker as one of the worst ways to nerf something. @Quadox i agree with a lot of your opinions , but sometimes your suggestions for other professions seem like backseat driver advice. > > > > > > > > > > > > a) Core mes with evasive mirror is not good, that doesn't mean evasive mirror isn't broken. Sure one trait can't carry an entire spec, but that doesn't mean much. > > > > > > b) I wanted to point out is that Warrior's Sprint was an unnecesary powercreep in the 2015 trait rework, not that Warrior's Sprint is heavily overperforming in relation to some of the other PoF traits for example. In an ideal world I don't think the "remove immobilize" part of the trait is healthy. > > > > > > c) The entire forum is kind of a backseat driver, with the anet balance team being the driver. > > > > > > > > > > How is the immob cleanse on Warrior's Sprint unhealthy? Would honestly like to hear an explanation to that. > > > > > > > > Warrior's Sprint and Unhindered Combatant (at least pre-exhaustion) remove immobilise without investment. It trivialises, basically nullifies, the Immobilse condition entirely just as elusive mind essentially nullified hard cc (even then, elusive mind didn't nullify the initial interrupt-part of the cc). I find these kinds of effects problematic for at least two reasons (ottomh). > > > > > > > > a) It removes an important avenue of counterplay completely, making skills that apply immobilise pointless. For me, immobilise is complementary to daze, and I doubt people would appreciate if some class had a trait that made daze ineffectual. There are in my mind a couple of reasons why immobilise does not seem to be seen as equivalent in efficacy by most people. 1) Condition removal has become so abundant, a solution to this could be to separate impairing conditions and damaging conditions entirely on cleanses. 2) Defense in gw2 pvp relies more on skills/utilities/traits than on dodges now than in the past; we used to have energy sigils at 50%, vigor at +100% and 100% vigor uptime on more classes via the now nerfed "vigor on-crit" traits. And this natually makes immobilise less powerful. > > > > > > > > b) In general, adding an abundance of some effect inevitably leads to powercreep. By adding lots of cleanse, condi application must also be buffed. By adding CC, stunbreaks must be made more common. And vice versa. By the same token, making immobilise easy to remove or otherwise ignore in a variety of ways (not exclusive to warrior or this trait) leads to having to powercreep ways to lock down or chase the opponent - such as more weakness, cripple, stun, immob. > > > > > > > > Now, this trait isn't the only offender, and I also think it could be argued for that shadowsteps should be movment skills and thus unusable during immobilise, but what do I know. Is this trait specifically game-breaking? Not really. > > > > > > I must be psychic. I saw that comparison coming a mile away. > > > > > > What I think you forget is that Unhindered Combatant is tied to the Daredevil's endurance, not specific cooldowns. Granted Endurance takes time to regenerate but the access to Vigor, access to Energy sigils as well as Endurance regenerating traits and skills that Daredevil uses; this made that trait explicitly insane not only because of the frequency in which it could be used but also due to the travel distance of the dash itself being quite significant compared to that of a regular dodge. Remember Daredevil has 3 bars of Endurance to use, pair that with Vigor + Energy Sigil + Endurance regain traits/skills and that is an effect that can be applied far too frequently. Rush, Bull's Charge, Whirlwind Attack and Savage Leap (the main ones) are all on longer cooldowns than those dashes would be, even when traited. Don't get me wrong, I think Anet just threw the Exhaustion status into traits because they didn't want to bother actually addressing the problems properly. In the case of the dodge dash they could have put an ICD on the cleanses plus shortened the actual distance of the dash to actually allow for some counterplay from melee against it. Similar treatment for Elusive Mind, an ICD on the trait would have served to balance it much better than just simply slapping exhaustion in there and wouldn't have made the trait useless. > > > > > > It does not remove an avenue of counterplay, it adds an avenue of counterplay to a class that is strictly melee bound because its ranged options are terrible. Immob is a soft CC that serves the purpose of hindering movement but still allowing for some character control with abilities, where Daze is a bit opposite. It doesn't restrict movement but restricts ability use. > > > > > > Defense in GW2 has always relied on cooldowns *and* dodges, never one or the other. It has always been a combination of both when it comes to sustain in fights, especially in fights where the opponent isn't inept. Even early on defense wasn't primarily based around dodges, people didn't have enough experience in the game yet to know when to dodge as they do these days. Some did, many more did not. > > > > > > While I agree there is power creep in the game I don't think it comes from needing to add more ways of locking an enemy down outside of immobilize, or rather *because* immobilize is "no longer as strong". With how a Druid specifically can abuse immob I would hate to be a Warrior without Warrior's Sprint. You wouldn't be able to move as they either kited away or just shot you from 1,500+ range and they can already do these things extremely well even without immobilize affecting a Warrior. Soulbeast even more so. Thief as well. Rifle Holo vs a Warrior if Warrior's Sprint did not remove immob? Rifle 2 into Forge mode and they just unload on you as they would if they had landed a stun or other hard CC against you. Which the standard holo combo has a hard CC in there with Forge 5 as well, plus 50% heat Prime Light Beam? Thats an immob + knockdown + unblockable knockback. > > > > > > Does that sound healthy for PvP to you? As if Warrior needs to get kited more by the instant teleports up ledges or double swoop 1500+ range Soulbeasts more than they already do, you want them to get immob'd and be forced to drop a condi cleanse like Berserker Stance or Shake It Off on it. This assuming they don't get immob'd and then loaded up with other conditions thus making them unable to cleanse the immob because of how cleanses work to begin with (they only cleanse the most recently applied condition). > > > > idk what tier you are > > > > but if u get kited in spvp as warrior > > > > u have a big issue man > > > > > > You're cute. > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > > > > Run Warrior's Sprint on berserker an tell me does it change much. The core traits are not only for the the current meta speck. Most people do not enjoy touching the core traitlines and i give as example Berserker as one of the worst ways to nerf something. @Quadox i agree with a lot of your opinions , but sometimes your suggestions for other professions seem like backseat driver advice. > > > > > > > > > > > > a) Core mes with evasive mirror is not good, that doesn't mean evasive mirror isn't broken. Sure one trait can't carry an entire spec, but that doesn't mean much. > > > > > > b) I wanted to point out is that Warrior's Sprint was an unnecesary powercreep in the 2015 trait rework, not that Warrior's Sprint is heavily overperforming in relation to some of the other PoF traits for example. In an ideal world I don't think the "remove immobilize" part of the trait is healthy. > > > > > > c) The entire forum is kind of a backseat driver, with the anet balance team being the driver. > > > > > > > > > > How is the immob cleanse on Warrior's Sprint unhealthy? Would honestly like to hear an explanation to that. > > > > > > > > Warrior's Sprint and Unhindered Combatant (at least pre-exhaustion) remove immobilise without investment. It trivialises, basically nullifies, the Immobilse condition entirely just as elusive mind essentially nullified hard cc (even then, elusive mind didn't nullify the initial interrupt-part of the cc). I find these kinds of effects problematic for at least two reasons (ottomh). > > > > > > > > a) It removes an important avenue of counterplay completely, making skills that apply immobilise pointless. For me, immobilise is complementary to daze, and I doubt people would appreciate if some class had a trait that made daze ineffectual. There are in my mind a couple of reasons why immobilise does not seem to be seen as equivalent in efficacy by most people. 1) Condition removal has become so abundant, a solution to this could be to separate impairing conditions and damaging conditions entirely on cleanses. 2) Defense in gw2 pvp relies more on skills/utilities/traits than on dodges now than in the past; we used to have energy sigils at 50%, vigor at +100% and 100% vigor uptime on more classes via the now nerfed "vigor on-crit" traits. And this natually makes immobilise less powerful. > > > > > > > > b) In general, adding an abundance of some effect inevitably leads to powercreep. By adding lots of cleanse, condi application must also be buffed. By adding CC, stunbreaks must be made more common. And vice versa. By the same token, making immobilise easy to remove or otherwise ignore in a variety of ways (not exclusive to warrior or this trait) leads to having to powercreep ways to lock down or chase the opponent - such as more weakness, cripple, stun, immob. > > > > > > > > Now, this trait isn't the only offender, and I also think it could be argued for that shadowsteps should be movment skills and thus unusable during immobilise, but what do I know. Is this trait specifically game-breaking? Not really. > > > > > > I must be psychic. I saw that comparison coming a mile away. > > It wasn't really a comparision, as I didn't talk about their comparative strengths. > > > > > > What I think you forget is that Unhindered Combatant is tied to the Daredevil's endurance, not specific cooldowns. Granted Endurance takes time to regenerate but the access to Vigor, access to Energy sigils as well as Endurance regenerating traits and skills that Daredevil uses; this made that trait explicitly insane not only because of the frequency in which it could be used but also due to the travel distance of the dash itself being quite significant compared to that of a regular dodge. Remember Daredevil has 3 bars of Endurance to use, pair that with Vigor + Energy Sigil + Endurance regain traits/skills and that is an effect that can be applied far too frequently. Rush, Bull's Charge, Whirlwind Attack and Savage Leap (the main ones) are all on longer cooldowns than those dashes would be, even when traited. Don't get me wrong, I think Anet just threw the Exhaustion status into traits because they didn't want to bother actually addressing the problems properly. In the case of the dodge dash they could have put an ICD on the cleanses plus shortened the actual distance of the dash to actually allow for some counterplay from melee against it. Similar treatment for Elusive Mind, an ICD on the trait would have served to balance it much better than just simply slapping exhaustion in there and wouldn't have made the trait useless. > > The cooldowns are very short. I generally dislike icds, at least as long as we don't have icds visible on the UI. > > > > > > It does not remove an avenue of counterplay, it adds an avenue of counterplay to a class that is strictly melee bound because its ranged options are terrible. Immob is a soft CC that serves the purpose of hindering movement but still allowing for some character control with abilities, where Daze is a bit opposite. It doesn't restrict movement but restricts ability use. > > Yeah, that's what I said about daze. > > > > > > Defense in GW2 has always relied on cooldowns *and* dodges, never one or the other. > > Of course. > > > It has always been a combination of both when it comes to sustain in fights, especially in fights where the opponent isn't inept. Even early on defense wasn't primarily based around dodges, people didn't have enough experience in the game yet to know when to dodge as they do these days. Some did, many more did not. > > Fact is there were more dodges and less defensive options from traits, in addition there are many powercrept skills. Examples of such traits on mesmer is evasive mirror and blinding dissipation. > > > > > > While I agree there is power creep in the game I don't think it comes from needing to add more ways of locking an enemy down outside of immobilize, or rather *because* immobilize is "no longer as strong". With how a Druid specifically can abuse immob I would hate to be a Warrior without Warrior's Sprint. > > That is exactly what I am saying though. The trait exists because of the availablility of immobilise on some builds, and vice versa. (you bring up druid as an example). Not saying that Anet implemented warrior's sprint as a direct reaction to druid, rather that powercreep in one area necessitates/causes powercreep in another. > > > > What I mean by the lower efficacy of immobilise is that the value of *a single* immobilise is lower, i.e. you get less value from hitting net shot, illusionary leap, or pindown. This is irrespective of how "spammable" immobilise is on certain specs. In a better timeline, I don't think warrior's sprint *or* spammable immobilse (for example chaotic interruption) should exist. > > > You wouldn't be able to move as they either kited away or just shot you from 1,500+ range and they can already do these things extremely well even without immobilize affecting a Warrior. Soulbeast even more so. Thief as well. Rifle Holo vs a Warrior if Warrior's Sprint did not remove immob? Rifle 2 into Forge mode and they just unload on you as they would if they had landed a stun or other hard CC against you. Which the standard holo combo has a hard CC in there with Forge 5 as well, plus 50% heat Prime Light Beam? Thats an immob + knockdown + unblockable knockback. > > > > > > Does that sound healthy for PvP to you? As if Warrior needs to get kited more by the instant teleports up ledges or double swoop 1500+ range Soulbeasts more than they already do, you want them to get immob'd and be forced to drop a condi cleanse like Berserker Stance or Shake It Off on it. This assuming they don't get immob'd and then loaded up with other conditions thus making them unable to cleanse the immob because of how cleanses work to begin with (they only cleanse the most recently applied condition). > > You very much did compare them as you stated they both "remove immobilize without investment" which is wrong on both counts, but in regards to Daredevil they would have been investing less due to the availability of their dodges due to the aforementioned reasons. Sure it can be called comparing, but at the end of the day I did not bring up unhindered combatant to make a point about how strong warrior's sprint is in relation, which is why I think your rant about that is uninteresting. It was simply brought up as an example in order to show that there are skills/traits other than warrior's sprint that trivialise the immobilise condition (again to be clear, it is not just these two traits). About investment, It's not like you give up your movement skill to use warrior's sprint, you still get value from the regular part of the skill. But sure, there is a tiny investment, I'll grant you. > > I do agree that ICDs should probably get a place on the UI as that information would be very helpful and a definite QoL change and would probably stop people from whining about "passive defenses" even though they can already be easily timed around if you're competent. Even an action based combat system like in Black Desert Online has ICDs for skills that are spammable or frequent. There are many skills across all classes that are spammable and still useable while on cooldown but they lose their additional effects while used on cooldown. Either losing its ability to CC or apply a debuff or lose a defensive bonus like SA (Super Armor: makes you immune to CCs other than grabs during a skills animation). > > ICDs on traits help to balance out bonus effects that end up strengthening a skills base effects unless their is already a cooldown associated with those skills, which Warrior's Sprint is tied to. That is why things like Infinite Horizon, due to the frequency of Mirage Cloak, need some sort of ICD otherwise it removes en element of counterplay. Similarly to Elusive Mind, that trait needed an ICD and not a new status effect that effectively nerfed the trait into the ground. Unhindered Combatant could've benefited more from an ICD and not the Exhaustion effect to still keep it useful but make it more balanced in gameplay. Again though I do agree that we should be able to see our own ICDs on the screen so that we know what is or isn't available. We fundamentally disagree on game design here. I just don't like ICDs in 90% of cases. > > As for there having been less defensive traits earlier on, you're not wrong but the trait system also worked differently for the first year or so of the game. All the trait rework did was merge a larger number of traits into a smaller number of slots, plus giving players access to 3 full traitlines instead of 2,33. Thereby introducing massive powercreep. > The shift into the system we have had since Pre-HoT changed up the kinds of builds that could be made and what builds did. If this were a more action oriented combat system I would say they could shift away from this system into something better but the fact remains that GW2 still has a "light" tab target system and because of that "passive" or trait related defenses exist. Going back to a previous comparison, if this were BDO the defenses one uses would be far more "active" because that is an entirely action based combat system and avoiding CC is almost entirely dependent on SA, invincibility frames, guards and movement. Personally I use the action camera because thats just something I became accustomed to and prefer due to my time on BDO but despite that skills will still seek their target because a majority of players still use the regular camera. Wait do you actually use action camera for PvP? > > In GW2 I would argue that dodging tends to be more important than other defenses in the game even now because if you use a dodge for nothing then the enemy gets the advantage but if you manage to dodge a CC that means a stunbreak that you don't have to use, if you dodge a hard hitting skill that means you won't need to use a heal or other defensive CD that otherwise would have been used. > > So far you haven't convinced me that Warrior's Sprint is unhealthy for the game, even if they addressed the frequency of immobilize on some classes, that would still leave some immobs and they would be akin to a hard CC for any melee class should effects like Warrior's Sprint have their immob cleanse removed. Like I detailed in my previous post, a typical 2 CC chain from Holosmith (Forge 3 > Forge 5(CC) > Forge 4 > Prime Light Beam(CC) > dodge > Forge 2) would turn into a 3 CC chain (Rife 2 > Forge 3 > Forge 5(CC) > Forge 4 > Prime Light Beam(CC) > dodge > Forge 2) against melee classes that a holo could do, mind you, well outside of melee distance. This is just an example but there are for sure others that would appear due to a change like that and you think there is powercrept CC *now*. Even if god himself descended from the sky with irrefutable divine truths about the nature of warrior's sprint and the meaning of life, it would still be basically impossible to convince you or most anyone else, likely myself included. Such is the nature of most internet discussions *shrug*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KryTiKaL.3125 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > @"Punny.9210" said: > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > > > > > Run Warrior's Sprint on berserker an tell me does it change much. The core traits are not only for the the current meta speck. Most people do not enjoy touching the core traitlines and i give as example Berserker as one of the worst ways to nerf something. @Quadox i agree with a lot of your opinions , but sometimes your suggestions for other professions seem like backseat driver advice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a) Core mes with evasive mirror is not good, that doesn't mean evasive mirror isn't broken. Sure one trait can't carry an entire spec, but that doesn't mean much. > > > > > > > b) I wanted to point out is that Warrior's Sprint was an unnecesary powercreep in the 2015 trait rework, not that Warrior's Sprint is heavily overperforming in relation to some of the other PoF traits for example. In an ideal world I don't think the "remove immobilize" part of the trait is healthy. > > > > > > > c) The entire forum is kind of a backseat driver, with the anet balance team being the driver. > > > > > > > > > > > > How is the immob cleanse on Warrior's Sprint unhealthy? Would honestly like to hear an explanation to that. > > > > > > > > > > Warrior's Sprint and Unhindered Combatant (at least pre-exhaustion) remove immobilise without investment. It trivialises, basically nullifies, the Immobilse condition entirely just as elusive mind essentially nullified hard cc (even then, elusive mind didn't nullify the initial interrupt-part of the cc). I find these kinds of effects problematic for at least two reasons (ottomh). > > > > > > > > > > a) It removes an important avenue of counterplay completely, making skills that apply immobilise pointless. For me, immobilise is complementary to daze, and I doubt people would appreciate if some class had a trait that made daze ineffectual. There are in my mind a couple of reasons why immobilise does not seem to be seen as equivalent in efficacy by most people. 1) Condition removal has become so abundant, a solution to this could be to separate impairing conditions and damaging conditions entirely on cleanses. 2) Defense in gw2 pvp relies more on skills/utilities/traits than on dodges now than in the past; we used to have energy sigils at 50%, vigor at +100% and 100% vigor uptime on more classes via the now nerfed "vigor on-crit" traits. And this natually makes immobilise less powerful. > > > > > > > > > > b) In general, adding an abundance of some effect inevitably leads to powercreep. By adding lots of cleanse, condi application must also be buffed. By adding CC, stunbreaks must be made more common. And vice versa. By the same token, making immobilise easy to remove or otherwise ignore in a variety of ways (not exclusive to warrior or this trait) leads to having to powercreep ways to lock down or chase the opponent - such as more weakness, cripple, stun, immob. > > > > > > > > > > Now, this trait isn't the only offender, and I also think it could be argued for that shadowsteps should be movment skills and thus unusable during immobilise, but what do I know. Is this trait specifically game-breaking? Not really. > > > > > > > > I must be psychic. I saw that comparison coming a mile away. > > > > > > > > What I think you forget is that Unhindered Combatant is tied to the Daredevil's endurance, not specific cooldowns. Granted Endurance takes time to regenerate but the access to Vigor, access to Energy sigils as well as Endurance regenerating traits and skills that Daredevil uses; this made that trait explicitly insane not only because of the frequency in which it could be used but also due to the travel distance of the dash itself being quite significant compared to that of a regular dodge. Remember Daredevil has 3 bars of Endurance to use, pair that with Vigor + Energy Sigil + Endurance regain traits/skills and that is an effect that can be applied far too frequently. Rush, Bull's Charge, Whirlwind Attack and Savage Leap (the main ones) are all on longer cooldowns than those dashes would be, even when traited. Don't get me wrong, I think Anet just threw the Exhaustion status into traits because they didn't want to bother actually addressing the problems properly. In the case of the dodge dash they could have put an ICD on the cleanses plus shortened the actual distance of the dash to actually allow for some counterplay from melee against it. Similar treatment for Elusive Mind, an ICD on the trait would have served to balance it much better than just simply slapping exhaustion in there and wouldn't have made the trait useless. > > > > > > > > It does not remove an avenue of counterplay, it adds an avenue of counterplay to a class that is strictly melee bound because its ranged options are terrible. Immob is a soft CC that serves the purpose of hindering movement but still allowing for some character control with abilities, where Daze is a bit opposite. It doesn't restrict movement but restricts ability use. > > > > > > > > Defense in GW2 has always relied on cooldowns *and* dodges, never one or the other. It has always been a combination of both when it comes to sustain in fights, especially in fights where the opponent isn't inept. Even early on defense wasn't primarily based around dodges, people didn't have enough experience in the game yet to know when to dodge as they do these days. Some did, many more did not. > > > > > > > > While I agree there is power creep in the game I don't think it comes from needing to add more ways of locking an enemy down outside of immobilize, or rather *because* immobilize is "no longer as strong". With how a Druid specifically can abuse immob I would hate to be a Warrior without Warrior's Sprint. You wouldn't be able to move as they either kited away or just shot you from 1,500+ range and they can already do these things extremely well even without immobilize affecting a Warrior. Soulbeast even more so. Thief as well. Rifle Holo vs a Warrior if Warrior's Sprint did not remove immob? Rifle 2 into Forge mode and they just unload on you as they would if they had landed a stun or other hard CC against you. Which the standard holo combo has a hard CC in there with Forge 5 as well, plus 50% heat Prime Light Beam? Thats an immob + knockdown + unblockable knockback. > > > > > > > > Does that sound healthy for PvP to you? As if Warrior needs to get kited more by the instant teleports up ledges or double swoop 1500+ range Soulbeasts more than they already do, you want them to get immob'd and be forced to drop a condi cleanse like Berserker Stance or Shake It Off on it. This assuming they don't get immob'd and then loaded up with other conditions thus making them unable to cleanse the immob because of how cleanses work to begin with (they only cleanse the most recently applied condition). > > > > > > idk what tier you are > > > > > > but if u get kited in spvp as warrior > > > > > > u have a big issue man > > > > > > > > > > You're cute. > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said: > > > > > > > > Run Warrior's Sprint on berserker an tell me does it change much. The core traits are not only for the the current meta speck. Most people do not enjoy touching the core traitlines and i give as example Berserker as one of the worst ways to nerf something. @Quadox i agree with a lot of your opinions , but sometimes your suggestions for other professions seem like backseat driver advice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a) Core mes with evasive mirror is not good, that doesn't mean evasive mirror isn't broken. Sure one trait can't carry an entire spec, but that doesn't mean much. > > > > > > > b) I wanted to point out is that Warrior's Sprint was an unnecesary powercreep in the 2015 trait rework, not that Warrior's Sprint is heavily overperforming in relation to some of the other PoF traits for example. In an ideal world I don't think the "remove immobilize" part of the trait is healthy. > > > > > > > c) The entire forum is kind of a backseat driver, with the anet balance team being the driver. > > > > > > > > > > > > How is the immob cleanse on Warrior's Sprint unhealthy? Would honestly like to hear an explanation to that. > > > > > > > > > > Warrior's Sprint and Unhindered Combatant (at least pre-exhaustion) remove immobilise without investment. It trivialises, basically nullifies, the Immobilse condition entirely just as elusive mind essentially nullified hard cc (even then, elusive mind didn't nullify the initial interrupt-part of the cc). I find these kinds of effects problematic for at least two reasons (ottomh). > > > > > > > > > > a) It removes an important avenue of counterplay completely, making skills that apply immobilise pointless. For me, immobilise is complementary to daze, and I doubt people would appreciate if some class had a trait that made daze ineffectual. There are in my mind a couple of reasons why immobilise does not seem to be seen as equivalent in efficacy by most people. 1) Condition removal has become so abundant, a solution to this could be to separate impairing conditions and damaging conditions entirely on cleanses. 2) Defense in gw2 pvp relies more on skills/utilities/traits than on dodges now than in the past; we used to have energy sigils at 50%, vigor at +100% and 100% vigor uptime on more classes via the now nerfed "vigor on-crit" traits. And this natually makes immobilise less powerful. > > > > > > > > > > b) In general, adding an abundance of some effect inevitably leads to powercreep. By adding lots of cleanse, condi application must also be buffed. By adding CC, stunbreaks must be made more common. And vice versa. By the same token, making immobilise easy to remove or otherwise ignore in a variety of ways (not exclusive to warrior or this trait) leads to having to powercreep ways to lock down or chase the opponent - such as more weakness, cripple, stun, immob. > > > > > > > > > > Now, this trait isn't the only offender, and I also think it could be argued for that shadowsteps should be movment skills and thus unusable during immobilise, but what do I know. Is this trait specifically game-breaking? Not really. > > > > > > > > I must be psychic. I saw that comparison coming a mile away. > > > It wasn't really a comparision, as I didn't talk about their comparative strengths. > > > > > > > > What I think you forget is that Unhindered Combatant is tied to the Daredevil's endurance, not specific cooldowns. Granted Endurance takes time to regenerate but the access to Vigor, access to Energy sigils as well as Endurance regenerating traits and skills that Daredevil uses; this made that trait explicitly insane not only because of the frequency in which it could be used but also due to the travel distance of the dash itself being quite significant compared to that of a regular dodge. Remember Daredevil has 3 bars of Endurance to use, pair that with Vigor + Energy Sigil + Endurance regain traits/skills and that is an effect that can be applied far too frequently. Rush, Bull's Charge, Whirlwind Attack and Savage Leap (the main ones) are all on longer cooldowns than those dashes would be, even when traited. Don't get me wrong, I think Anet just threw the Exhaustion status into traits because they didn't want to bother actually addressing the problems properly. In the case of the dodge dash they could have put an ICD on the cleanses plus shortened the actual distance of the dash to actually allow for some counterplay from melee against it. Similar treatment for Elusive Mind, an ICD on the trait would have served to balance it much better than just simply slapping exhaustion in there and wouldn't have made the trait useless. > > > The cooldowns are very short. I generally dislike icds, at least as long as we don't have icds visible on the UI. > > > > > > > > It does not remove an avenue of counterplay, it adds an avenue of counterplay to a class that is strictly melee bound because its ranged options are terrible. Immob is a soft CC that serves the purpose of hindering movement but still allowing for some character control with abilities, where Daze is a bit opposite. It doesn't restrict movement but restricts ability use. > > > Yeah, that's what I said about daze. > > > > > > > > Defense in GW2 has always relied on cooldowns *and* dodges, never one or the other. > > > Of course. > > > > It has always been a combination of both when it comes to sustain in fights, especially in fights where the opponent isn't inept. Even early on defense wasn't primarily based around dodges, people didn't have enough experience in the game yet to know when to dodge as they do these days. Some did, many more did not. > > > Fact is there were more dodges and less defensive options from traits, in addition there are many powercrept skills. Examples of such traits on mesmer is evasive mirror and blinding dissipation. > > > > > > > > While I agree there is power creep in the game I don't think it comes from needing to add more ways of locking an enemy down outside of immobilize, or rather *because* immobilize is "no longer as strong". With how a Druid specifically can abuse immob I would hate to be a Warrior without Warrior's Sprint. > > > That is exactly what I am saying though. The trait exists because of the availablility of immobilise on some builds, and vice versa. (you bring up druid as an example). Not saying that Anet implemented warrior's sprint as a direct reaction to druid, rather that powercreep in one area necessitates/causes powercreep in another. > > > > > > What I mean by the lower efficacy of immobilise is that the value of *a single* immobilise is lower, i.e. you get less value from hitting net shot, illusionary leap, or pindown. This is irrespective of how "spammable" immobilise is on certain specs. In a better timeline, I don't think warrior's sprint *or* spammable immobilse (for example chaotic interruption) should exist. > > > > You wouldn't be able to move as they either kited away or just shot you from 1,500+ range and they can already do these things extremely well even without immobilize affecting a Warrior. Soulbeast even more so. Thief as well. Rifle Holo vs a Warrior if Warrior's Sprint did not remove immob? Rifle 2 into Forge mode and they just unload on you as they would if they had landed a stun or other hard CC against you. Which the standard holo combo has a hard CC in there with Forge 5 as well, plus 50% heat Prime Light Beam? Thats an immob + knockdown + unblockable knockback. > > > > > > > > Does that sound healthy for PvP to you? As if Warrior needs to get kited more by the instant teleports up ledges or double swoop 1500+ range Soulbeasts more than they already do, you want them to get immob'd and be forced to drop a condi cleanse like Berserker Stance or Shake It Off on it. This assuming they don't get immob'd and then loaded up with other conditions thus making them unable to cleanse the immob because of how cleanses work to begin with (they only cleanse the most recently applied condition). > > > > You very much did compare them as you stated they both "remove immobilize without investment" which is wrong on both counts, but in regards to Daredevil they would have been investing less due to the availability of their dodges due to the aforementioned reasons. > Sure it can be called comparing, but at the end of the day I did not bring up unhindered combatant to make a point about how strong warrior's sprint is in relation, which is why I think your rant about that is uninteresting. It was simply brought up as an example in order to show that there are skills/traits other than warrior's sprint that trivialise the immobilise condition (again to be clear, it is not just these two traits). About investment, It's not like you give up your movement skill to use warrior's sprint, you still get value from the regular part of the skill. But sure, there is a tiny investment, I'll grant you. > > > > I do agree that ICDs should probably get a place on the UI as that information would be very helpful and a definite QoL change and would probably stop people from whining about "passive defenses" even though they can already be easily timed around if you're competent. Even an action based combat system like in Black Desert Online has ICDs for skills that are spammable or frequent. There are many skills across all classes that are spammable and still useable while on cooldown but they lose their additional effects while used on cooldown. Either losing its ability to CC or apply a debuff or lose a defensive bonus like SA (Super Armor: makes you immune to CCs other than grabs during a skills animation). > > > > ICDs on traits help to balance out bonus effects that end up strengthening a skills base effects unless their is already a cooldown associated with those skills, which Warrior's Sprint is tied to. That is why things like Infinite Horizon, due to the frequency of Mirage Cloak, need some sort of ICD otherwise it removes en element of counterplay. Similarly to Elusive Mind, that trait needed an ICD and not a new status effect that effectively nerfed the trait into the ground. Unhindered Combatant could've benefited more from an ICD and not the Exhaustion effect to still keep it useful but make it more balanced in gameplay. Again though I do agree that we should be able to see our own ICDs on the screen so that we know what is or isn't available. > We fundamentally disagree on game design here. I just don't like ICDs in 90% of cases. > > > > As for there having been less defensive traits earlier on, you're not wrong but the trait system also worked differently for the first year or so of the game. > All the trait rework did was merge a larger number of traits into a smaller number of slots, plus giving players access to 3 full traitlines instead of 2,33. Thereby introducing massive powercreep. > > The shift into the system we have had since Pre-HoT changed up the kinds of builds that could be made and what builds did. If this were a more action oriented combat system I would say they could shift away from this system into something better but the fact remains that GW2 still has a "light" tab target system and because of that "passive" or trait related defenses exist. Going back to a previous comparison, if this were BDO the defenses one uses would be far more "active" because that is an entirely action based combat system and avoiding CC is almost entirely dependent on SA, invincibility frames, guards and movement. Personally I use the action camera because thats just something I became accustomed to and prefer due to my time on BDO but despite that skills will still seek their target because a majority of players still use the regular camera. > Wait do you actually use action camera for PvP? > > > > In GW2 I would argue that dodging tends to be more important than other defenses in the game even now because if you use a dodge for nothing then the enemy gets the advantage but if you manage to dodge a CC that means a stunbreak that you don't have to use, if you dodge a hard hitting skill that means you won't need to use a heal or other defensive CD that otherwise would have been used. > > > > So far you haven't convinced me that Warrior's Sprint is unhealthy for the game, even if they addressed the frequency of immobilize on some classes, that would still leave some immobs and they would be akin to a hard CC for any melee class should effects like Warrior's Sprint have their immob cleanse removed. Like I detailed in my previous post, a typical 2 CC chain from Holosmith (Forge 3 > Forge 5(CC) > Forge 4 > Prime Light Beam(CC) > dodge > Forge 2) would turn into a 3 CC chain (Rife 2 > Forge 3 > Forge 5(CC) > Forge 4 > Prime Light Beam(CC) > dodge > Forge 2) against melee classes that a holo could do, mind you, well outside of melee distance. This is just an example but there are for sure others that would appear due to a change like that and you think there is powercrept CC *now*. > Even if god himself descended from the sky with irrefutable divine truths about the nature of warrior's sprint and the meaning of life, it would still be basically impossible to convince you or most anyone else, likely myself included. Such is the nature of most internet discussions *shrug*. > Thats because fundamentally we are just going to disagree on the subject because you have certain likes and dislikes related to the design of some game mechanics and so do I. Like how I find tab target to be old, decrepit and disgusting yet is tolerable in GW2. Also yes I do PvP with the action camera. I spend a large chunk of my time in WvW mind you but I do duel as often as I can against actual good opponents and I win most of the time. Only people that I have gotten close to but never beaten in a 1v1 are Xan, Tubby Two Ton and Reckless and sadly Tubby quit GW2 :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Punny.9210" said: > wow this forum is full of goldies huh > > anyone on high tier know there is something need to be done to the braindead rampage. > > for me i can take the dmg Yeah but that has absolutely nothing to do with Warrior's Sprint. If anything, Rampage just needs a bit of damage chopped off. The gap closing CCs, 25% DR, and pulsing Stability is enough. Rampage could afford to lose about 10% of its damage output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbelch.9028 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Mbelch.9028" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > Savage Leap: 600 Units > > > Whirlwind Attack: 450 Units > > > Rush: 1200 Units > > > Bull's Charge: 900 Units > > > Seismic Leap: 600 Units > > > Dash: 1000 Units > > > Whirlwind Attack: 450 Units > > > Savage Leap: 600 Units > > > > > > = 5,800 units of movement in about 10 seconds. > > > > > >...... > > > All of these warrior skills are going to ignore movement impairing effects like chill and cripple by their nature as movement skills, and with Warrior's Sprint they're breaking immobilization every time. Heck DP Daredevil has to eat Exhausting for 4 seconds when it breaks immobilization. > > > > > > When people hated on the original Sword+Torch / Staff Ineptitude Condition Mirage Builds because they were too capable of disengaging while being one of the best 1v1 specs they had about 4,950 units of disengage. > > > > > > Phase Retreat: 600 Units > > > Sword Ambush: 600 Units > > > Sword Ambush: 600 Units > > > Distortion Sword Ambush with Desert Distortion: 600 Units > > > Blink: 1200 > > > Jaunt X 3: 1350 > > > > > > =4,950 units of movement speed. > > > > > > > Nice of you to put every single movement skill in a warrior's kit (if they're using a sword, which MOST do not). I'm assuming we're comparing ability to get to a point at the start of a match, because if you're trying to disengage from a fight, nearly none of what you typed is realistic. > > > > In a race to the first to a point, I totally agree, Warrior has top tier mobility. But it can't fight a clean fight thereafter. Especially after blowing a 72-second cooldown skill for two bits of mobility (1600 units). > > > > The reality is that every skill you mentioned in a warrior's kit is used to... do damage or gap close. If a warrior can't get to its target, it's a sitting duck, and it's useless/dead. If a warrior can't do damage, it's a sitting duck, and it's useless/dead. > > > > It may be shocking for a mesmer to learn, I know, but whereas all of the skills you listed for mesmer are used to disengage or in a rare scenario gap close, a Warrior doesn't have the luxury of ports (half of what you listed) nor does it have the luxury of clones or stealth. Warriors have no skills that are purely designed for fleeing, perhaps outside of Savage Leap, which I already established is not really used in the meta right now. I'm going to say it again. Warriors need these skills you've mentioned to be effective in any way. > > Spellbreakers didn't always run maximum mobility builds. They ran defense with 3 stances for a majority of Path of Fire and skilled Spellbreakers, could still win fights, still get kills, and still disengage just through good use of terrain and with their already solid disengage with Greatsword. > > It's just that once every warrior started running Strength their level of disengage is almost untouchable. Things changed not because of nerfs to defense warriors, but between Peak Performance and the buffs to Bull's Charge, Rampage and Might Make Right's Synergy with Magebane Tether, they don't need to spec defensive to survive anymore. They have tons of sustain, can drop 8-10k crits on people with arcing slice and whirlwind blade once they've ramped up their might and have absolutely top tier disengage potential even without blinks. > > No one needs all 5,800 units of movement to disengage. No one is going to chase you once you've blitzed 2,400 units ahead of them unless they are so outrageously kill crazy they're a liability to their team. > > No one is going to catch a Strength Spellbreaker when they really want to get away from a fight. It's simple math. And your complaints about "Oh well not every single movement skill will be up because I might need them for a fight!" is true of literally every build. Everyone is going to be pressured to use movement skills, and defensive options as a fight goes on. > > You can talk about blinks, and yes they absolutely do have their advantages in that they open up pathways to go not everyone can easily follow. But even without those pathways opened up to them Spellbreakers right now have leagues more movement than other classes except thief. I don't know how you can account for 2 movement skills within an elite. That's what I'm saying. Many classes have better mobility/chase potential over warriors even when it's factored in. Your mesmer's 5k movement units are far superior because you can be free casting on the warrior the whole way with your 1k range. Don't forget about all the movement impairing effects you can place on classes. Beyond that, "strength" trait line brings one thing to warrior that it didn't use prior to the nerf to defense, which is bull's rush. That doesn't change a build that much. Lastly — nobody runs sword. It's a false trope for your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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