gateless gate.8406 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"Ario.8964" said: > > @"gateless gate.8406" said: > > > @"incisorr.9502" said: > > > Everyone crying about condi mirage when it was already the least played class in high elo https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63990/mesmer-is-trash-and-it-needs-buffs#latest > > > > > > In this current season there are two revenants in top 10 and 0 mirages, > > > in top 50 there are five + revenants and **one single mirage player** (in fact, the 2nd highest mirage is all over #70 so you have only 1 player making it in top 70 as a mirage out of what is it? Millions of active gw2 players?) > > > > > > How does anet justify nerfing a class that has been underperforming for months even further while a class like revenant that's broken beyond reason that's dominating the game and that does dmg beyond any reason in pvp with the best ganking tools in the game is still allowed to be in here? > > > > > > I'm not even here to post my opinion but merely to state facts and the facts are that CONDI MIRAGE remains the least played class on high elo along with elementalist (sometimes less played, sometimes more played). You can literally play any other mesmer spec (power or core or chrono or whatever) and you'll be better off than playing condi mirage because the class was completely nuked out of orbit due to what? Peer pressure and forum propaganda? REALLY? It's also the least played class for AT finalists (except ele, again) for the last half year > > > > > > so how are patch notes made? is it based on forum whining ? because if someone was actually checking the state of the game we would have the complete opposite patch > > > > Balancing for the top 250 players will eventually reduce your playerbase to 250 players. > > Well that's just straight up not true. Balancing a game to the top 250 will allow it to be based on skill, timing, prediction, etc. (all of the things that we complain don't matter due to powercreep, passives, etc.). The reason the game has lost so much of it's playerbase is due to balancing to the casuals. Casual players couldn't properly combo damage and cc together so anet added more cc and damage so they could play better. They kept dying quickly so anet gave them passive lifesavers, passive counter cc, more healing/evasion/invuln so they could live longer. All this has done is made the trash tier players marginally stronger (they can get lucky with occasionally killing something if they have 10k hits to spam or they can sometimes actually survive more than 2 seconds if they can spam invuln and healing) and make higher level players god tier (they know how to time and stagger cds so they always have some sort of near 1 shot combo ready, they also always leave themselves with tons of sustain, disengage tools, etc). Balancing to the performance of a high level player will be better for the game's health in the long run, will attract more players (new game modes would help a ton too but I digress) and gives the bad players something to strive for. > > TLDR: Why should anyone be rewarded for being bad? Ever? They shouldn't be, so don't balance that way. Balancing for the top 250 players will eventually reduce your playerbase to 250 players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snellibee.2761 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"everyman.4375" said: > > @"Snellibee.2761" said: > > > @"everyman.4375" said: > > > > @"Snellibee.2761" said: > > > > Thing is if Condi Mirage is so bad like you say why are so many people wanting to have it nerfed? Why are there so many people saying it is completely OP? Why isn't ele being called op and in need of nerfs? And why aren't there any threads about Revenant being OP beside your own? > > > > > > > > You need to realize by now that you're the ONLY one with your vision and mindset. Everybody else thinks different. If 90% of the population thinks that Condi Mirage was OP then it's pretty likely that Condi Mirage is OP. > > > > > > > > You're also really the only one complaining about Revenant, I honestly don't understand how you're this high ranked but you're getting wiped by a +1 class especially when Condi Mirage is like a direct counter against Revenants. > > > > > > Condi mirage was realy strong but now it's just not worth playing. > > > > It def is worth playing, everyone that used to play condi mirage was just relying on it being so cheesy and easy that they're all upset that they actually need to do something now. > > I didn't see a single mirage (beside myself sometimes) in the last week of ranked. Maybe every mirage player was just bad and fell down to bronze or maybe mirage just got nerfed way too hard and thus is not worth playing especially with all the scrappers and chrono running around. > But hey at least there's barely any conditions in the game so people must be happy, right ? I've seen plenty mirages in ranked. And you know maybe all these mirages switched to Scrapper since that is now the new easy to win class that doesn't require you to have any skill whatsoever? Also, just because Chrono and Scrapper are broken doesn't mean Mirage needs to be buffed to compete. It means Chrono and Scrapper needs to be toned down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayAction.9056 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"coro.3176" said: > I'm not a fan of the current balance strategy that seems to be something like: > > "Buff everything up to the highest level of powercreep introduced with HoT/PoF" > > I'd prefer the opposite: **nerf everything down to ~2015 levels of power**. If you took the strongest 2015 build and put it against any current meta build, it'd get destroyed. > > The current buff-to-powercreep strategy is how we've ended up at such extremes over the past few years. If every build is OP, then .. every build is OP. It's not balance. > > What happened to condi mirage was a step in the right direction. It needs to keep happening to other classes, and hopefully on a more frequent basis. 2015 **MESMER / TEMPEST / DH / REV / SCRAPPER / DRUID / DAREDEVIL / CONDI THIEF / REAPER** were all stronger than they are now. Mesmer and tempest were stronger than every bunker in game currently even current bunker Mesmer by quite a large margin while also having very high damage. Every spec of Mesmer was stupid OP HOT release. Season 1 was the immortal meta due to Mesmer and Tempest. Even quickness stomps were not enough to secure downs over those two classes. REV auto attacks hit as hard as sword 4/5 that people cry about now. Rev had more teleports, more dodges, and 100% stronger heals. DH instant kill on traps was a thing. If a reaper got chill on you it meant you were dead unless Mesmer/Tempest/Druid saved you. Scrapper was about as bunker as it is now with higher damage. Condi thief and daredevil could go minutes without an opening to attack them while doing insane damage. You must not have actually played in 2015 or were not good enough to see this happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"JayAction.9056" said: > > @"coro.3176" said: > > I'm not a fan of the current balance strategy that seems to be something like: > > > > "Buff everything up to the highest level of powercreep introduced with HoT/PoF" > > > > I'd prefer the opposite: **nerf everything down to ~2015 levels of power**. If you took the strongest 2015 build and put it against any current meta build, it'd get destroyed. > > > > The current buff-to-powercreep strategy is how we've ended up at such extremes over the past few years. If every build is OP, then .. every build is OP. It's not balance. > > > > What happened to condi mirage was a step in the right direction. It needs to keep happening to other classes, and hopefully on a more frequent basis. > > 2015 **MESMER / TEMPEST / DH / REV / SCRAPPER / DRUID / DAREDEVIL / CONDI THIEF / REAPER** were all stronger than they are now. > > Mesmer and tempest were stronger than every bunker in game currently even current bunker Mesmer by quite a large margin while also having very high damage. Every spec of Mesmer was stupid OP HOT release. Season 1 was the immortal meta due to Mesmer and Tempest. Even quickness stomps were not enough to secure downs over those two classes. > > REV auto attacks hit as hard as sword 4/5 that people cry about now. Rev had more teleports, more dodges, and 100% stronger heals. > > DH instant kill on traps was a thing. > > If a reaper got chill on you it meant you were dead unless Mesmer/Tempest/Druid saved you. > > Scrapper was about as bunker as it is now with higher damage. > > Condi thief and daredevil could go minutes without an opening to attack them while doing insane damage. > > You must not have actually played in 2015 or were not good enough to see this happen. Good old days... man I remember back then scrapper was impossible to fight solo. Rev also had massive sustainability. DH was on pull kill against most classes. PoF also had its share of crap. It was not long ago where scourges where the equivalent of a walking nuclear silo. FB healing and boon stacking was so ridiculous. You literally spam aegis. Remember SB at lunch? Lol. That was extremely broken that the only counter was scourge. And mirages right before the condi nerf we’re on another level. If only Anet does testing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > Here is a fact. > > > > The less Mesmer play PvP the healthier is the Gamemode > > When people say things like this and it is upvoted, it legitmizes the idea that complaints about mesmer are based on disliking the class as opposed to being real issues. While this is true, when people willing to do it have long, itemized lists about why we have actual issues with a classes capability to evade damage at any point while stacking conditions that punish the user for both action and inaction, and why on a core level that kind of gameplay is neither exciting or engaging for the person on the receiving end, we are frequently met with "JuSt LeArN ThE MeTA", "ThIS GaMe IsNT SuPpOsEd To Be FuN", "JuSt RoLl MeSmEr" by players who are now suddenly upset that Mirage Cloak lasts as long as a normal dodge- Ykinda just shrug at this. Sure, we need mesmers in the game, and props to the people that play them and play them well. But the condition build that has been running for so long, that rose to power immediately after they made chronobunker not game-crashingly stupid, remained too strong for too long. Everyone got fed up of having to deal with that kind of gameplay. Also Hahahhaha at OP citing his own thread to support his point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coro.3176 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"JayAction.9056" said: > > @"coro.3176" said: > > I'm not a fan of the current balance strategy that seems to be something like: > > > > "Buff everything up to the highest level of powercreep introduced with HoT/PoF" > > > > I'd prefer the opposite: **nerf everything down to ~2015 levels of power**. If you took the strongest 2015 build and put it against any current meta build, it'd get destroyed. > > > > The current buff-to-powercreep strategy is how we've ended up at such extremes over the past few years. If every build is OP, then .. every build is OP. It's not balance. > > > > What happened to condi mirage was a step in the right direction. It needs to keep happening to other classes, and hopefully on a more frequent basis. > > 2015 **MESMER / TEMPEST / DH / REV / SCRAPPER / DRUID / DAREDEVIL / CONDI THIEF / REAPER** were all stronger than they are now. > > Mesmer and tempest were stronger than every bunker in game currently even current bunker Mesmer by quite a large margin while also having very high damage. Every spec of Mesmer was stupid OP HOT release. Season 1 was the immortal meta due to Mesmer and Tempest. Even quickness stomps were not enough to secure downs over those two classes. > > REV auto attacks hit as hard as sword 4/5 that people cry about now. Rev had more teleports, more dodges, and 100% stronger heals. > > DH instant kill on traps was a thing. > > If a reaper got chill on you it meant you were dead unless Mesmer/Tempest/Druid saved you. > > Scrapper was about as bunker as it is now with higher damage. > > Condi thief and daredevil could go minutes without an opening to attack them while doing insane damage. > > You must not have actually played in 2015 or were not good enough to see this happen. By 2015, I mean pre-HoT. I thought that was implied, but apparently not. HoT was late-2015 and was the start of the power-creep I and many others complain about all the time. The builds you list in your reply were indeed some of the main offenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"coro.3176" said: > > @"JayAction.9056" said: > > > @"coro.3176" said: > > > I'm not a fan of the current balance strategy that seems to be something like: > > > > > > "Buff everything up to the highest level of powercreep introduced with HoT/PoF" > > > > > > I'd prefer the opposite: **nerf everything down to ~2015 levels of power**. If you took the strongest 2015 build and put it against any current meta build, it'd get destroyed. > > > > > > The current buff-to-powercreep strategy is how we've ended up at such extremes over the past few years. If every build is OP, then .. every build is OP. It's not balance. > > > > > > What happened to condi mirage was a step in the right direction. It needs to keep happening to other classes, and hopefully on a more frequent basis. > > > > 2015 **MESMER / TEMPEST / DH / REV / SCRAPPER / DRUID / DAREDEVIL / CONDI THIEF / REAPER** were all stronger than they are now. > > > > Mesmer and tempest were stronger than every bunker in game currently even current bunker Mesmer by quite a large margin while also having very high damage. Every spec of Mesmer was stupid OP HOT release. Season 1 was the immortal meta due to Mesmer and Tempest. Even quickness stomps were not enough to secure downs over those two classes. > > > > REV auto attacks hit as hard as sword 4/5 that people cry about now. Rev had more teleports, more dodges, and 100% stronger heals. > > > > DH instant kill on traps was a thing. > > > > If a reaper got chill on you it meant you were dead unless Mesmer/Tempest/Druid saved you. > > > > Scrapper was about as bunker as it is now with higher damage. > > > > Condi thief and daredevil could go minutes without an opening to attack them while doing insane damage. > > > > You must not have actually played in 2015 or were not good enough to see this happen. > > By 2015, I mean pre-HoT. I thought that was implied, but apparently not. HoT was late-2015 and was the start of the power-creep I and many others complain about all the time. The builds you list in your reply were indeed some of the main offenders. Let's be accurate; that June 23rd 2015 trait rework was the start of the powercreep, which HoT made worse. Aside from that I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTruth.6813 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 The trait rework was nice, HoT ruined it and killed e-sports. We legit had viewership then to be fair, when HoT came? Hotfix or we quit is what the players said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > The trait rework was nice, HoT ruined it and killed e-sports. > > We legit had viewership then to be fair, when HoT came? Hotfix or we quit is what the players said. I respect the opinion but I staunchly disagree (specifically about the trait rework being nice). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > Honestly, it's really amazing how hard you try to defend unbalanced (powercreeped into oblivion) class. > > The facts are: > * HoT Powercreep still not touched in a proper manner. > * PoF Powercreep still not touched in a proper manner. > > What you call "nuked out of orbit", I call *poking the hand* "You were a very, very, very bad boi, don't do this stuff again!". > Rank currently means nothing, you can be paired very randomly and thanks to powercreep that still is very present since HoT release, build matters a lot more than the actual skill of a player. > They nerfed mesmer, good. Was that enough? No. > Just because other classes are overperforming, doesn't mean your class should aswell. > IMO, everything need nerfs, Mirage nerfs were at most grain of sand in the middle of sandstorm of what needs to be done to the class itself (every other class need nerfs here and there aswell, no excuses). I think the bigger issue is the sweeping cross game mode high magnitude changes that were made to Mesmer exclusively (some that have obliterated any possible condi core/chrono build) while power creeping Tempest and Scrapper when neither were bad just not competitive within the meta. They also didn't actually address the real problems so it's a time bomb ticking away for the next ill thought out moronic "buff this because idiots keep using a dumbass study to advocate buffs over nerfs" change that will shatter (deliberate pun alert) the balance and make them "OP" again. I'm all for nerfs, bring them on I can't wait but they need to make them more uni-formally across the PoF specs at the same time. Rev damage is still off the charts in solo and mAT, Holo still has crazy sustain/damage for it's traiting, Firebrand conceptually is a huge problem and add so much baseline and scourge, the support spec, is in a weird state where it's default better damage. I'm looking at the next patch, a single buff and I'm probably done with the game, we need nerfs, pure simple uniform nerfs across the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > The trait rework was nice, HoT ruined it and killed e-sports. > > We legit had viewership then to be fair, when HoT came? Hotfix or we quit is what the players said. Nice or not, it definitely was power creep. HoTwas another layer of power creep. Then came PoF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Ketsu.4569 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 The only thing wrong with the patch is it overbuffed scrapper to the point where it shifted the entire meta since any team comp must now have a way to cope with it or else be considered a bad comp. Complaining about Mesmer nerfs is just silly. The class received the single biggest buff ( Phantasm rework ) since the history of all Guild Wars buffs ( Yes, including GW1 ). This buff occurred at a time when Mirage was already considered a top meta build. Literally every good player I know has been saying the class is broken for over a year now. Here is the truth: The rework made it so Mesmer is now a class of which its core design is to basically spam defenses while AI does the work for it. This is a low risk, high reward, non-interactive, lazy playstyle. There are some good and interactive mesmer builds, like Chronoburst as being played by shorts deserves respect. But most mesmer builds since the rework are just flat out braindead. Mesmer still has a meta build to play. Chronobunk scepter is still very much an S+-tier build. There are some classes out there that barely have an A-tier build. People need to learn to stop being so entitled when it comes to their class and look around. You will find that almost every class in the game has a spec or two that is considered trash. Renegade has been trash tier since release. Berserker has been demoted to PvE farming spec for how long? Core ele LMAO. Core engie LMAO. DH ? Farm. Staff DD? Farm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrollingDemigod.3041 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"apharma.3741" said: > I think the bigger issue is the sweeping cross game mode high magnitude changes that were made to Mesmer exclusively (some that have obliterated any possible condi core/chrono build) while power creeping Tempest and Scrapper when neither were bad just not competitive within the meta. They also didn't actually address the real problems so it's a time bomb ticking away for the next ill thought out moronic "buff this because idiots keep using a kitten study to advocate buffs over nerfs" change that will shatter (deliberate pun alert) the balance and make them "OP" again. > > I'm all for nerfs, bring them on I can't wait but they need to make them more uni-formally across the PoF specs at the same time. Rev damage is still off the charts in solo and mAT, Holo still has crazy sustain/damage for it's traiting, Firebrand conceptually is a huge problem and add so much baseline and scourge, the support spec, is in a weird state where it's default better damage. > > I'm looking at the next patch, a single buff and I'm probably done with the game, we need nerfs, pure simple uniform nerfs across the board. I don't think mesmer was deleted from game with these changes, it's still far from being in "balanced" state (still visual clutter and spammability present after all). About the rest, I do agree, my mistake to not mention it. I don't really get why they even touched Tempest and Scrapper in the first place, they were simply overshadowed by other broken specs like FB that threw boons, heals etc on left and right for free. I do think that remaking gyros into wells was a good move to some degree (in theory), though they powercreeped it a bit too much, Tempest or rather the Elementalist was touched in a wrong way, it has a different problems after all. I'm fully aware that people will ask for buffs (I've already seen posts here and there about "buff this", "it's time to buff x", "my class unplayable, buff it") and honestly I don't understand, it's like they can't see that they're asking literally: "add more fuel to the house that is burning already quite fast". IMO, they shouldn't really buff anything currently(even the most "underpowered" spec, since in reality it's overshadowed by other specs) and focus on nerfing everything until it's in "balanced state" (it is doable, though by making such spaghetti over the years it may be difficult but not impossible). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"incisorr.9502" said: > Everyone crying about condi mirage when it was already the least played class in high elo https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63990/mesmer-is-trash-and-it-needs-buffs#latest Seriously? > > In this current season there are two revenants in top 10 and 0 mirages, > in top 50 there are five + revenants and **one single mirage player** (in fact, the 2nd highest mirage is all over #70 so you have only 1 player making it in top 70 as a mirage out of what is it? Millions of active gw2 players?) What a misleading title to this thread. I came in here looking for intra-class wide discussion, but it's just another Mirage Main Spotted thread. And btw, the millions of active gw2 players you're referencing is more like maybe 1000 active accounts that participate in ranked play each season. 500 of which probably play less than 25 games per season, 250 maybe hovering around 120 games played just so they can place, and then only about 250 accounts that are avidly playing enough to surpass 120+ games. Out of those 250 accounts played avidly, maybe about 150 of them are individual human beings, who have many alt accounts. <- This is probably within the ballpark of reality if you were to see the kinds of statistics that Arenanet has available. This point also goes into why you aren't seeing Mirage mains in the top 10. The people who control the leaderboards, are too my knowledge not Mirage players, and never were. In other words, there just aren't any Mirage players playing big win trade games. Attempting to base a discussion about balance via the representation of "what classes are in the top 10" is sort of invalid, considering why those players are in the top 10. > > How does anet justify nerfing a class that has been underperforming for months even further while a class like revenant that's broken beyond reason that's dominating the game and that does dmg beyond any reason in pvp with the best ganking tools in the game is still allowed to be in here? lol not even gonna take the time to reason with this statement. > > I'm not even here to post my opinion but merely to state facts and the facts are that CONDI MIRAGE remains the least played class on high elo along with elementalist (sometimes less played, sometimes more played). You can literally play any other mesmer spec (power or core or chrono or whatever) and you'll be better off than playing condi mirage because the class was completely nuked out of orbit due to what? Peer pressure and forum propaganda? REALLY? It's also the least played class for AT finalists (except ele, again) for the last half year Naw, it all depends what you're against in the match. Condi Mirage counters Herald hard as example. No reason to bring in a Chrono if there are two good Heralds on the other team. > > so how are patch notes made? is it based on forum whining ? because if someone was actually checking the state of the game we would have the complete opposite patch You are the only person taking the stance that Mirage should be buffed. Think about it, just think about it for awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ario.8964 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"gateless gate.8406" said: > > @"Ario.8964" said: > > > @"gateless gate.8406" said: > > > > @"incisorr.9502" said: > > > > Everyone crying about condi mirage when it was already the least played class in high elo https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63990/mesmer-is-trash-and-it-needs-buffs#latest > > > > > > > > In this current season there are two revenants in top 10 and 0 mirages, > > > > in top 50 there are five + revenants and **one single mirage player** (in fact, the 2nd highest mirage is all over #70 so you have only 1 player making it in top 70 as a mirage out of what is it? Millions of active gw2 players?) > > > > > > > > How does anet justify nerfing a class that has been underperforming for months even further while a class like revenant that's broken beyond reason that's dominating the game and that does dmg beyond any reason in pvp with the best ganking tools in the game is still allowed to be in here? > > > > > > > > I'm not even here to post my opinion but merely to state facts and the facts are that CONDI MIRAGE remains the least played class on high elo along with elementalist (sometimes less played, sometimes more played). You can literally play any other mesmer spec (power or core or chrono or whatever) and you'll be better off than playing condi mirage because the class was completely nuked out of orbit due to what? Peer pressure and forum propaganda? REALLY? It's also the least played class for AT finalists (except ele, again) for the last half year > > > > > > > > so how are patch notes made? is it based on forum whining ? because if someone was actually checking the state of the game we would have the complete opposite patch > > > > > > Balancing for the top 250 players will eventually reduce your playerbase to 250 players. > > > > Well that's just straight up not true. Balancing a game to the top 250 will allow it to be based on skill, timing, prediction, etc. (all of the things that we complain don't matter due to powercreep, passives, etc.). The reason the game has lost so much of it's playerbase is due to balancing to the casuals. Casual players couldn't properly combo damage and cc together so anet added more cc and damage so they could play better. They kept dying quickly so anet gave them passive lifesavers, passive counter cc, more healing/evasion/invuln so they could live longer. All this has done is made the trash tier players marginally stronger (they can get lucky with occasionally killing something if they have 10k hits to spam or they can sometimes actually survive more than 2 seconds if they can spam invuln and healing) and make higher level players god tier (they know how to time and stagger cds so they always have some sort of near 1 shot combo ready, they also always leave themselves with tons of sustain, disengage tools, etc). Balancing to the performance of a high level player will be better for the game's health in the long run, will attract more players (new game modes would help a ton too but I digress) and gives the bad players something to strive for. > > > > TLDR: Why should anyone be rewarded for being bad? Ever? They shouldn't be, so don't balance that way. > > Balancing for the top 250 players will eventually reduce your playerbase to 250 players. Balancing to everyone below that will eventually reduce your playerbase to 0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTruth.6813 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Ario.8964" said: > > @"gateless gate.8406" said: > > > @"Ario.8964" said: > > > > @"gateless gate.8406" said: > > > > > @"incisorr.9502" said: > > > > > Everyone crying about condi mirage when it was already the least played class in high elo https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63990/mesmer-is-trash-and-it-needs-buffs#latest > > > > > > > > > > In this current season there are two revenants in top 10 and 0 mirages, > > > > > in top 50 there are five + revenants and **one single mirage player** (in fact, the 2nd highest mirage is all over #70 so you have only 1 player making it in top 70 as a mirage out of what is it? Millions of active gw2 players?) > > > > > > > > > > How does anet justify nerfing a class that has been underperforming for months even further while a class like revenant that's broken beyond reason that's dominating the game and that does dmg beyond any reason in pvp with the best ganking tools in the game is still allowed to be in here? > > > > > > > > > > I'm not even here to post my opinion but merely to state facts and the facts are that CONDI MIRAGE remains the least played class on high elo along with elementalist (sometimes less played, sometimes more played). You can literally play any other mesmer spec (power or core or chrono or whatever) and you'll be better off than playing condi mirage because the class was completely nuked out of orbit due to what? Peer pressure and forum propaganda? REALLY? It's also the least played class for AT finalists (except ele, again) for the last half year > > > > > > > > > > so how are patch notes made? is it based on forum whining ? because if someone was actually checking the state of the game we would have the complete opposite patch > > > > > > > > Balancing for the top 250 players will eventually reduce your playerbase to 250 players. > > > > > > Well that's just straight up not true. Balancing a game to the top 250 will allow it to be based on skill, timing, prediction, etc. (all of the things that we complain don't matter due to powercreep, passives, etc.). The reason the game has lost so much of it's playerbase is due to balancing to the casuals. Casual players couldn't properly combo damage and cc together so anet added more cc and damage so they could play better. They kept dying quickly so anet gave them passive lifesavers, passive counter cc, more healing/evasion/invuln so they could live longer. All this has done is made the trash tier players marginally stronger (they can get lucky with occasionally killing something if they have 10k hits to spam or they can sometimes actually survive more than 2 seconds if they can spam invuln and healing) and make higher level players god tier (they know how to time and stagger cds so they always have some sort of near 1 shot combo ready, they also always leave themselves with tons of sustain, disengage tools, etc). Balancing to the performance of a high level player will be better for the game's health in the long run, will attract more players (new game modes would help a ton too but I digress) and gives the bad players something to strive for. > > > > > > TLDR: Why should anyone be rewarded for being bad? Ever? They shouldn't be, so don't balance that way. > > > > Balancing for the top 250 players will eventually reduce your playerbase to 250 players. > > Balancing to everyone below that will eventually reduce your playerbase to 0. Now this has to be the quote of the century LOL at least my interpretation of it (People not knowing how to counter Rampage, lacking common sense, etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gateless gate.8406 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Ario.8964" said: > > @"gateless gate.8406" said: > > > @"Ario.8964" said: > > > > @"gateless gate.8406" said: > > > > > @"incisorr.9502" said: > > > > > Everyone crying about condi mirage when it was already the least played class in high elo https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63990/mesmer-is-trash-and-it-needs-buffs#latest > > > > > > > > > > In this current season there are two revenants in top 10 and 0 mirages, > > > > > in top 50 there are five + revenants and **one single mirage player** (in fact, the 2nd highest mirage is all over #70 so you have only 1 player making it in top 70 as a mirage out of what is it? Millions of active gw2 players?) > > > > > > > > > > How does anet justify nerfing a class that has been underperforming for months even further while a class like revenant that's broken beyond reason that's dominating the game and that does dmg beyond any reason in pvp with the best ganking tools in the game is still allowed to be in here? > > > > > > > > > > I'm not even here to post my opinion but merely to state facts and the facts are that CONDI MIRAGE remains the least played class on high elo along with elementalist (sometimes less played, sometimes more played). You can literally play any other mesmer spec (power or core or chrono or whatever) and you'll be better off than playing condi mirage because the class was completely nuked out of orbit due to what? Peer pressure and forum propaganda? REALLY? It's also the least played class for AT finalists (except ele, again) for the last half year > > > > > > > > > > so how are patch notes made? is it based on forum whining ? because if someone was actually checking the state of the game we would have the complete opposite patch > > > > > > > > Balancing for the top 250 players will eventually reduce your playerbase to 250 players. > > > > > > Well that's just straight up not true. Balancing a game to the top 250 will allow it to be based on skill, timing, prediction, etc. (all of the things that we complain don't matter due to powercreep, passives, etc.). The reason the game has lost so much of it's playerbase is due to balancing to the casuals. Casual players couldn't properly combo damage and cc together so anet added more cc and damage so they could play better. They kept dying quickly so anet gave them passive lifesavers, passive counter cc, more healing/evasion/invuln so they could live longer. All this has done is made the trash tier players marginally stronger (they can get lucky with occasionally killing something if they have 10k hits to spam or they can sometimes actually survive more than 2 seconds if they can spam invuln and healing) and make higher level players god tier (they know how to time and stagger cds so they always have some sort of near 1 shot combo ready, they also always leave themselves with tons of sustain, disengage tools, etc). Balancing to the performance of a high level player will be better for the game's health in the long run, will attract more players (new game modes would help a ton too but I digress) and gives the bad players something to strive for. > > > > > > TLDR: Why should anyone be rewarded for being bad? Ever? They shouldn't be, so don't balance that way. > > > > Balancing for the top 250 players will eventually reduce your playerbase to 250 players. > > Balancing to everyone below that will eventually reduce your playerbase to 0. Nope. Listen, I'll throw you a bone and explain why you need to balance for more than the top 1%. Mirage. It's not highly represented at the top. However, it is fundamentally obnoxious to play against; most competitive games (that want to have a long lifespan) are VERY careful when handing out abilities that generate clones, stealth, or evasion-while-attacking. Mirage has all three. Beyond being obnoxious, those three elements are difficult for new players to deal with. It is a "noob stomper" spec. When game designers leave noob stomper specs/classes/heroes to run rampant simply because "well, they're not good at high-level play, so that means they're balanced," you will lose players in your "intake funnel" - the new players who are popping their heads into your game to see if it's fun. That's bad for the longevity of your game. There are several examples of this happening in videogame history. The key is the specific attributes that make Mirage a noob stomper: clones, stealth, evasion-while-attacking. Obviously there are classes with better sustain + damage. There are classes with better teamfight capabilities. There are more well-rounded classes. That is not the issue; you have the look at the specific "noob stomper" elements. And, looking at this issue from another angle, clearly Mirage's clones + stealth + evasion is NOT actually helping it at high level play. It has those things, but it's still not favored. So if those things are causing issues at low and mid level play, while not even securing it a healthy role in high level play, then why not change it? Stop bothering me now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > The trait rework was nice, HoT ruined it and killed e-sports. > > > > We legit had viewership then to be fair, when HoT came? Hotfix or we quit is what the players said. > > I respect the opinion but I staunchly disagree (specifically about the trait rework being nice). I don't really see the evidence for you to staunchly disagree over. After the trait re-work we had massive diversity of builds, diverse meta strategies in PvP, and the most viewability the game ever had. You could run a Teamfight comp with Support Guardian, double Rampage Warrior & Burn Guard (ORNG LOGO), a Thief/Mesmer rotational portal comp, (TCG), or a balanced duelist double Ele comp (ABJ), all to photo finish matches. These strategies were all fairly balanced (double Ele may have been arguably the most busted since it was winning once Abjured learned you could run away from teamfights.) What is your evidence to support your claim that this patch was powercreep, and a bad thing? Some classes like Engi were at a higher power level pre-core specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTruth.6813 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 ^ALL of these actually happened, and vods could be pulled out from what Chaith said by the way. The trait rework allowed DPS Warrior to take over instead of boring shoutbow (which was literally the most boring spec ever, after turret engi nerF) for example There were MORE VARIETY on team comps as well, THAT you cannot deny at all. Specifically when I said we had more viewership before HoT kicked in, those things happened too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > The trait rework was nice, HoT ruined it and killed e-sports. > > > > > > We legit had viewership then to be fair, when HoT came? Hotfix or we quit is what the players said. > > > > I respect the opinion but I staunchly disagree (specifically about the trait rework being nice). > > I don't really see the evidence for you to staunchly disagree over. After the trait re-work we had massive diversity of builds, diverse meta strategies in PvP, and the most viewability the game ever had. You could run a Teamfight comp with Support Guardian, double Rampage Warrior & Burn Guard (ORNG LOGO), a Thief/Mesmer rotational portal comp, (TCG), or a balanced duelist double Ele comp (ABJ), all to photo finish matches. These strategies were all fairly balanced (double Ele may have been arguably the most busted since it was winning once Abjured learned you could run away from teamfights.) > > What is your evidence to support your claim that this patch was powercreep, and a bad thing? Some classes like Engi were at a higher power level pre-core specs. Concerning powercreep, they reduced the number of major traits to 8 from 12-13 per line, merging many traits in the process (and adding new/reworked ones). Also gave us 3 full traitlines in one build, up from 2 and 1/3. Never heard anyone not call this patch powercreep, that surprises me. As for the rest I don't need evidence, as it is an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nath Forge Tempete.1645 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"incisorr.9502" said: > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > Honestly, it's really amazing how hard you try to defend unbalanced (powercreeped into oblivion) class. > > > > The facts are: > > * HoT Powercreep still not touched in a proper manner. > > * PoF Powercreep still not touched in a proper manner. > > > > What you call "nuked out of orbit", I call *poking the hand* "You were a very, very, very bad boi, don't do this stuff again!". > > Rank currently means nothing, you can be paired very randomly and thanks to powercreep that still is very present since HoT release, build matters a lot more than the actual skill of a player. > > They nerfed mesmer, good. Was that enough? No. > > Just because other classes are overperforming, doesn't mean your class should aswell. > > IMO, everything need nerfs, Mirage nerfs were at most grain of sand in the middle of sandstorm of what needs to be done to the class itself (every other class need nerfs here and there aswell, no excuses). > > facts are > > Not a single mirage played in the monthly AT top 8 > > xd > > mirage wasn't good even on the last patch yet it got nerfed again, you talk about facts but you ignore the facts that don't fit your narrative, how does that even work? The REAL fact here is that you using some random facts to explain that class is OP or not. The fact that that class is not played at high elo is different than the fact that class garbage. We all know that the classes are balanced around the entire population (and sometimes being pushed on the front seat by some high elo players) but don't forget they are different build overperforming in bronze - silver - gold that are no issue in platinum - challenger depending on the playstyle and the knowledge of the population . Conclusion : STOP the High rank argue. It's not valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said: > > @"incisorr.9502" said: > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said: > > > Honestly, it's really amazing how hard you try to defend unbalanced (powercreeped into oblivion) class. > > > > > > The facts are: > > > * HoT Powercreep still not touched in a proper manner. > > > * PoF Powercreep still not touched in a proper manner. > > > > > > What you call "nuked out of orbit", I call *poking the hand* "You were a very, very, very bad boi, don't do this stuff again!". > > > Rank currently means nothing, you can be paired very randomly and thanks to powercreep that still is very present since HoT release, build matters a lot more than the actual skill of a player. > > > They nerfed mesmer, good. Was that enough? No. > > > Just because other classes are overperforming, doesn't mean your class should aswell. > > > IMO, everything need nerfs, Mirage nerfs were at most grain of sand in the middle of sandstorm of what needs to be done to the class itself (every other class need nerfs here and there aswell, no excuses). > > > > facts are > > > > Not a single mirage played in the monthly AT top 8 > > > > xd > > > > mirage wasn't good even on the last patch yet it got nerfed again, you talk about facts but you ignore the facts that don't fit your narrative, how does that even work? > > The REAL fact here is that you using some random facts to explain that class is OP or not. The fact that that class is not played at high elo is different than the fact that class garbage. > > We all know that the classes are balanced around the entire population (and sometimes being pushed on the front seat by some high elo players) but don't forget they are different build overperforming in bronze - silver - gold that are no issue in platinum - challenger depending on the playstyle and the knowledge of the population . > > Conclusion : STOP the High rank argue. It's not valid. Classes are not balanced around the entire population. they never are and never will be, in any game. If players cannot use the class properly, as intended by design, that is a player problem. No game can be balanced around player incompetence. The whole purpose of class balance is to fix design missteps, not to give the masses broken stuff to subsistite lack of understanding/proper useage. Having said that, devs do consider accessibility and learning curves as part of the balance methodology. It is not in the driver seat though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpretor.3091 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 People are still bringing Mirages in PvP and tournament play because of their mobility, utility and portals;amongst other things as well. Mirage ability to 1v1 gets nerfed and actually loses matchups 1v1 now and Mirage mains explode. Mirage is incredibly useful and brought in monthly ATs for a reason. It’s versatile and good Mesmer players will figure out how to utilize Mirage in a way that they can find advantages from, just like they have done in every meta (which idk if you have noticed, but Mesmer/Mirage/Chrono has been meta in sPvP since the game has been released). Just because you can’t push far and win every matchup to carry games anymore doesn’t mean that it’s not worth playing. Find another way to utilize your class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everyman.4375 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"Interpretor.3091" said: > People are still bringing Mirages in PvP and tournament play because of their mobility, utility and portals;amongst other things as well. > Mirage ability to 1v1 gets nerfed and actually loses matchups 1v1 now and Mirage mains explode. > Mirage is incredibly useful and brought in monthly ATs for a reason. It’s versatile and good Mesmer players will figure out how to utilize Mirage in a way that they can find advantages from, just like they have done in every meta (which idk if you have noticed, but Mesmer/Mirage/Chrono has been meta in sPvP since the game has been released). > Just because you can’t push far and win every matchup to carry games anymore doesn’t mean that it’s not worth playing. Find another way to utilize your class. Mirage mobility is a blink that you shouldn't use out of combat and a portal that is unusable because of the duration. If you're planning on making a meta comp taking mirage is a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpretor.3091 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 > @"everyman.4375" said: > > @"Interpretor.3091" said: > > People are still bringing Mirages in PvP and tournament play because of their mobility, utility and portals;amongst other things as well. > > Mirage ability to 1v1 gets nerfed and actually loses matchups 1v1 now and Mirage mains explode. > > Mirage is incredibly useful and brought in monthly ATs for a reason. It’s versatile and good Mesmer players will figure out how to utilize Mirage in a way that they can find advantages from, just like they have done in every meta (which idk if you have noticed, but Mesmer/Mirage/Chrono has been meta in sPvP since the game has been released). > > Just because you can’t push far and win every matchup to carry games anymore doesn’t mean that it’s not worth playing. Find another way to utilize your class. > > Mirage mobility is a blink that you shouldn't use out of combat and a portal that is unusable because of the duration. > If you're planning on making a meta comp taking mirage is a mistake. Oh, you’re a top player and already know the meta so close to the balance patch? My bad. Pretty sure though the top teams are still bringing Mirages and even Chronomancers to ATs. Also, unlike any other 1v1 class in the game, Mesmers have superior mobility both rotational and during 1v1s. Mirages can blink up the clocktower and if they are in trouble or need to rotate faster and can blink to safe spots on side nodes when 1v1ing on certain maps. What other 1v1 side noder can do that? Spellbreaker? No. Soulbeast? No. Scapper? No. Weaver? No. Holosmith? No. Also, portal plays were used in base game, HoT and PoF metas, who is to say that it wont come back? Especially now that Mirage isn’t taking 1v1s that often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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