Which direction is the game heading?

[Kid Origami.9108]

> @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > @"Kid Origami.9108" said:

> >They really need to make the entire game more challenging, and require more teamwork to complete.

> Because that went over _so well_ in HoT...

 

I believe that HoT's difficulty spike didn't make the audience happy because the player base was not properly trained up to that point. ANet bred a player base of full of entitlement with no interest in getting better at playing the game they made. When HoT hit, very few among the player base were ready to deal with the increased mechanical mastery required to participate. Then ANet capitulated when players demanded they either make the maps easier or make future content easier. In the end, I believe that the solution is not too add difficulty in new areas of the game, but to make the baseline of required competency higher by making literally everything more difficult. Core Tyria should be the training players take on to learn how to play HoT and PoF.

If people leave because game is harder, that is an acceptable loss. That same difficulty will bring back those who love the game, the veterans and challenge seekers, the core of any MMO community. The casuals will either leave, adjust, or find easy content despite the changes. But the zerg and the auto-tag loot train needs to die.

[ewenness.6482]

The so-called "casuals" finance big budget games like this. I would recommend checking out WildStar if you want a product that caters to highly skilled players with a lot of time on their hands but unsurprisingly it was shut down after four years, with half of its life spent in maintenance mode.

 

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying it was a bad game. In fact, it was a great game! So much so that I took part in all the betas , pre-ordered the deluxe edition, and spent every weekend playing it. However, I also recognize that you can't make something as expensive as that and then tailor it only to a small group of potential customers. Not unless you don't care to make a profit.

 

[Kid Origami.9108]

I tried Wildstar late in its life and couldn't get into it... It just want Guild Warsy enough.

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

> @"mercury ranique.2170" said:

> > @"Vlad Morbius.1759" said:

> > Maybe we'll get it here https://www.e3expo.com/ Arena Net is on the docket and their motto is "Three days of innovative new technologies and never- before- seen products"....we can hope it means expack 3!

>

> That is the general E3 motto, so not specific for arenanet

I realize that but if you're attending you're expected to provide innovative technologies and never before seen products, so I'm hoping this is a major announcement by Anet accordingly. Also, what people tend to forget is 7 years in not a long time in the life of most successful MMO's and there is no doubt GW2 has been successful. I'd find it hard to believe this game won;t see more expansions while they either build GW3 or their next title so whether this is announced here or not i doubt very much we won't be getting some kind of roadmap at least as they have told us they would a month back.

[Warobaz.9543]

Unless they reserved their spot for the unannounced/cancelled projects, and now have nothing to show... ?

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Or, it could be just like last year (where they didn't have a booth, just a meeting room for business contacts).

Once the floor map is released, it will be clear.

[Aeolus.3615]

Path to become the most lammers mmo in gaming industry...

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Kid Origami.9108" said:

> If people leave because game is harder, that is an acceptable loss. That same difficulty will bring back those who love the game, the veterans and challenge seekers, the core of any MMO community.

You have the marketing statistics to back up your claims?

 

[MoriMoriMori.5349]

> @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > @"Kid Origami.9108" said:

> >They really need to make the entire game more challenging, and require more teamwork to complete.

> Because that went over _so well_ in HoT...

 

It actually did. There is a poll in another topic nearby, like "which did you like better, HoT or PoF"? Surprisingly, HoT easily beats PoF when it comes to love of the players voted there. Was a surprise for me as well, as I found out it have much harder content than PoF. People mostly say there that they loved meta/events in HoT much more than PoF. So it seems like they really enjoy playing that more hard content - if it's done well.

 

Even more surprisingly, I can't see much negativity in there for any of two. Most people at best say that both DLCs had some issues, but still were very good. Many also say they loved PoF and HoT equally.

 

I wonder if all those whinings usually confused for "community feedback" is just a vocal super-casual minority Anet would be much better without?

 

I would say Anet at least should consider adding a special challenge mode to **every** map in the game (or at least to every 80 level map), similar to what exist in fractals. So basically it would allow you to form a group and deliberately move to another, special instance of the map you can't get into normally, with much more hard and engaging gameplay (better mobs AI, more CC abilities on them, more HP/damage) - and with much better rewards from events, as well. It still should be somewhat solo-able, assuming you have a good build and play game really well - but should still be balanced around a small party (3-5 people), with additional scaling for greater zergs.

[MoriMoriMori.5349]

> @"ewenness.6482" said:

> The so-called "casuals" finance big budget games like this. I would recommend checking out WildStar if you want a product that caters to highly skilled players with a lot of time on their hands but unsurprisingly it was shut down after four years, with half of its life spent in maintenance mode.

That's a misinformation here. There is a topic on Reddit exactly on this matter, and even cursory reading of it shows that what they tried to push as "hardcore" in Wildstar was what is being repeatedly labeled as a "chore" on these forums. Basically, a boring time-sink, with a lot of time-gates to boot. And on top of it, when you overcame all those, you just found out there is no high-lv content in the game except of raiding which was getting old quickly on you.

 

If you must provide examples of hardcore MMORPG game, at least select proper ones. Like Eve Online which is 15 y.o. and still kicking, and (imo) will last longer than GW2.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"MoriMoriMori.5349" said:

> There is a poll in another topic nearby, like "which did you like better, HoT or PoF"? Surprisingly, HoT easily beats PoF when it comes to love of the players voted there.

 

Any poll on this forum is suspect merely by the fact that the sample size and make-up are skewed.

[MoriMoriMori.5349]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"MoriMoriMori.5349" said:

> > There is a poll in another topic nearby, like "which did you like better, HoT or PoF"? Surprisingly, HoT easily beats PoF when it comes to love of the players voted there.

>

> Any poll on this forum is suspect merely by the fact that the sample size and make-up are skewed

Any statistics do. Should we stop using it then? If you prefer Amazon customers reviews more, though, HoT has 4.3/5 there - and that includes negative reviews left by casuals complaining over its difficulty there (quite a lot of them, actually).

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

> @"Kid Origami.9108" said:

> > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > > @"Kid Origami.9108" said:

> > >They really need to make the entire game more challenging, and require more teamwork to complete.

> > Because that went over _so well_ in HoT...

>

> I believe that HoT's difficulty spike didn't make the audience happy because the player base was not properly trained up to that point. ANet bred a player base of full of entitlement with no interest in getting better at playing the game they made. When HoT hit, very few among the player base were ready to deal with the increased mechanical mastery required to participate. Then ANet capitulated when players demanded they either make the maps easier or make future content easier. In the end, I believe that the solution is not too add difficulty in new areas of the game, but to make the baseline of required competency higher by making literally everything more difficult. Core Tyria should be the training players take on to learn how to play HoT and PoF.

> If people leave because game is harder, that is an acceptable loss. That same difficulty will bring back those who love the game, the veterans and challenge seekers, the core of any MMO community. The casuals will either leave, adjust, or find easy content despite the changes. But the zerg and the auto-tag loot train needs to die.

 

Do you actually have any statistics backing up your claims that the most popular activity in the most active gamemode (open world zergs) needs to die for the good of the game? Or is this yet another case of "it is a fact because I say so"?

[Devilman.1532]

down the drain

[Smeerlap.2698]

I hope not with the LW .. 5 seasons is enough.. develop it for weeks / months of work and you finish it in a few hours.

Put some effort in Dungeons, new meta's (PoF) new Armors/Weapons (Legendary-->Cosmic-->Mythical something like that).

And an exiting tweak and upgrade system for Armors, really bored with infusions and Runes only.

To put it bluntly.. if nothing exiting happens this year i'm out.. delete abort cancel uninstall bye. :s

[Thelgar.7214]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"Kid Origami.9108" said:

 

> I tried Wildstar late in its life and couldn't get into it... It just want Guild Warsy enough.

 

I played early and late. It had lots and lots of coolness, but the gameplay just wasn't fun to me.

[Thelgar.7214]

> @"Kid Origami.9108" said:

> > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:

> > > @"Kid Origami.9108" said:

> > >They really need to make the entire game more challenging, and require more teamwork to complete.

> > Because that went over _so well_ in HoT...

>

> I believe that HoT's difficulty spike didn't make the audience happy because the player base was not properly trained up to that point. ANet bred a player base of full of entitlement with no interest in getting better at playing the game they made. When HoT hit, very few among the player base were ready to deal with the increased mechanical mastery required to participate. Then ANet capitulated when players demanded they either make the maps easier or make future content easier. In the end, I believe that the solution is not too add difficulty in new areas of the game, but to make the baseline of required competency higher by making literally everything more difficult. Core Tyria should be the training players take on to learn how to play HoT and PoF.

> If people leave because game is harder, that is an acceptable loss. That same difficulty will bring back those who love the game, the veterans and challenge seekers, the core of any MMO community. The casuals will either leave, adjust, or find easy content despite the changes. But the zerg and the auto-tag loot train needs to die.

 

Going back to Diablo 2, players enjoy content where they can earn and relax and talk at the same time. It works well when you can do that in open world events, then carry that loot and/or leveling to PvP or other challenging content. WvW was most popular when the majority of the players, even guild groups, were casuals, hanging out and talking and listening to music in chat, with more specialized groups that were focused on highly skilled play. Making more of PvE less fun will hurt the game mode just as much as WvW becoming less fun hurt it.

[ewenness.6482]

> @"MoriMoriMori.5349" said:

> > @"ewenness.6482" said:

> > The so-called "casuals" finance big budget games like this. I would recommend checking out WildStar if you want a product that caters to highly skilled players with a lot of time on their hands but unsurprisingly it was shut down after four years, with half of its life spent in maintenance mode.

> That's a misinformation here. There is a topic on Reddit exactly on this matter, and even cursory reading of it shows that what they tried to push as "hardcore" in Wildstar was what is being repeatedly labeled as a "chore" on these forums. Basically, a boring time-sink, with a lot of time-gates to boot. And on top of it, when you overcame all those, you just found out there is no high-lv content in the game except of raiding which was getting old quickly on you.

>

> If you must provide examples of hardcore MMORPG game, at least select proper ones. Like Eve Online which is 15 y.o. and still kicking, and (imo) will last longer than GW2.

 

Those issues are present in all games of the MMORPG scene, one way or the other. Even GW1 and GW2 are "guilty" of having lengthy grinds and even WoW, the long-time giant of the genre, has been time-gating its content since the release of Molten Core with the fire resistance gear and have since piloted itself into a "run raids or timed dungeons, otherwise quit" nosedive. Having those elements in a game isn't bad on its own, mind you. It becomes a problem when there's comperatively little effort put into more relaxed content as the majority of any given MMORPG playerbase will consist of people who stick to those kind of activities.

 

Thelgar.7214 correctly pointed out that the reason for that is these players' preference for a more socializing-focused experience. They log in, usually after a tiring day, chat with friends and unwind by "pressing 1 1 1 2 1 1 1" as some posters on this forum like to say. It's like playing card games. Sure, you need to engage your brain but not so much that it ends up wearing you out. Its main purpose is to be an activity that gets people together and lets them relax around each other. It lets them socialize quite easily (There's very little barrier to entry, after all. Can you recognize the few numbers and symbols on those cards? Gratz, you're invited! Don't worry about the rules, you'll learn along the way anyhow!) while providing practically unlimited entertainment in the form of the other players.

 

Of course, some will point out, card games can be played very seriously as well. Professionally and for a lot of money, even. How many play card games like that compared to the ones who just gather around a makeshift table and throw back a couple beers while talking about the job and the wife and that Becky from accounting keeps cheating on Ron? Exactly.

 

This goes for every activity, really. Professional sports players are a small minority compared to to those who just like swimming in the weekends or kick the ball every other evening. Professional e-sports players are a small minority compared to people who log in to just do some easy overworld content or to run a couple instanced fights.

 

Not saying that professionals of a given area or activity are better or worse than those who pursue the same interests in a casual, relaxed fashion. However, they certainly are a minority. If you want to be profitable as a business and your product isn't something that can be marketed as a high-end or luxury brand while at the same time you do have to put a lot of money and manpower into developing and maintaining it, well... you're going to have to appeal to as many people as you can.

 

Imagine if Nike would only sell their shoes to professional sports players. No one else would be allowed to wear them, not even if they are willing to pay good money for a pair. Otherwise the prestige is lost, right? They would be pandering to the casual weekend joggers and the kids playing football in the schoolyard and the out-of-shape "i was offered a spot in the big league back in high school but then this injury happened and you see..." people struggling with mid-life crisis. Surely those people don't deserve to wear the same brand as the elite sportsmen of our world! Whether they deserve it or not is moot because Nike would have to declare bankruptcy if they refused to cater to the average person.

 

By selling some swanky mass-produced shoes to the common man, Nike can offer more niche ones for those who take their sports seriously and want higher quality or more specialized wares and they can also afford to develop products for the elite sportsmen who demand the absolute best of the best.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72842/what-s-next-for-guild-wars-2#latest

 

Some news relevant to this thread.

[Tiviana.2650]

> @"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72842/what-s-next-for-guild-wars-2#latest

>

> Some news relevant to this thread.

 

Im not seeing anything in there about an expansion, do they not even let us know one is on the horizon?

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Tiviana.2650" said:

> > @"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:

> > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72842/what-s-next-for-guild-wars-2#latest

> >

> > Some news relevant to this thread.

>

> Im not seeing anything in there about an expansion, do they not even let us know one is on the horizon?

 

Why would they tell us that an expansion is coming? Season 5 is coming after Season 4 and that's the focus now. Once we are mid-way Season 5 they might tell us if an expansion is coming next, or Season 6 will start directly after Season 5.

[MoriMoriMori.5349]

> @"Tiviana.2650" said:

> > @"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:

> > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72842/what-s-next-for-guild-wars-2#latest

> >

> > Some news relevant to this thread.

>

> Im not seeing anything in there about an expansion, do they not even let us know one is on the horizon?

 

Seems like this part mirrors their opinion:

>The Living World of Guild Wars 2 is a great way for us to accomplish all of that. It’s the best way to provide our player community with regular content updates—great features, new horizons to explore, and an engaging story that brings our world and characters to life—without charging a subscription fee.

 

[Iozeph.5617]

> @"MoriMoriMori.5349" said:

> Seems like this part mirrors their opinion:

> >The Living World of Guild Wars 2 is a great way for us to accomplish all of that. It’s the best way to provide our player community with regular content updates—great features, new horizons to explore, and an engaging story that brings our world and characters to life—without charging a subscription fee.

>

Strangely reminiscent of how they couched it when they said they were going to focus on fractals rather than dungeons apart from, 'Fractals are better because Dungeons are hard to make(because we let the dungeon people go)'

 

Talk one up and either talk the other down or abstain from mentioning it at all. Saying no to expansions without saying no to expansions. Weasel wording at its best.

 

[MoriMoriMori.5349]

> @"Iozeph.5617" said:

> Talk one up and either talk the other down or abstain from mentioning it at all. Saying no to expansions without saying no to expansions. Weasel wording at its best.

 

That's top-notch PR for you ;)

 

 

[Kid Origami.9108]

> @"ewenness.6482" said:

> (Insert a very long and fabulously well thought out post here.)

 

This combined with the most recent Dev post, reminded me that this path was set in stone since the beginning with the developer's own philosophies and that this isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just something they have to design around. I still long for more difficult and team oriented content to strengthen the need for guilds, and for Ye Olde Conetente of yesterday, when games extended their play time through sheer difficulty, but it's important to recognize when you're just being an old fart (in gamer terms at least) and trying to spoil other people's fun.

 

I think ANet had the game well in hand, and hopefully they will continue to create interesting content of all skill levels.

 

...

 

They should still rework the Zhaitan battle and make personal story replayability but that's a lot of code so....