Discipline (more specifically, "Fast Hands")

[Obtena.7952]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> The fact that it HASN'T happened yet and you're using that as an excuse to shut down the debate is ridiculous.

 

FH being baseline means its trait spot going to get replaced by SOMETHING ... and that's still going to mean FH baseline affects EVERY warrior build. Anyone that says otherwise is just being disingenuous. It's just dishonest at this point to pretend that Discipline warriors will not benefit from FH baseline. I'm actually thinking they will benefit MORE than non-Discipline warriors because anyone in Discipline is still going to benefit from weapon swapping way more than non-Discipline ones. They just got another trait, likely benefitting ... (you guessed it) weapon swapping.

 

I don't know what prompts people to think the way to get things they want is to make these dishonest claims. It's just absurd to think that non-Discipline builds will benefit from a baseline FH more than Discipline builds. If that's not powercreep with no trade off, then I will just be assured that based on their behavior, Anet certainly will not take this bait.

[sneakytails.5629]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > @"sneakytails.5629" said:

> > We live or die by our Bursts (or lack thereof when they are denied) not Weapon Swap ,or Movement Speed. Those are secondary factors not the main one. Stop saying otherwise. Burst is our main mechanic not weapon swap.

> >

> > You want your weapon swap to be close to your burst recharge. You have a 5 second weapon swap if Fast Hands is Baseline and a 8 second Burst recharge when not running Discipline. That's actually clunky.

> >

> > I loose my Warriors Sprint whenever I swap to my Rifle all the time, you get used to it. I dont even run Bulls Charge or GreatSword, you should be using those to close the gaps and using those to start a burst.

> >

> > I would be okay with the Baseline Weapon Swap recharge at 7 seconds (2 seconds faster than non Warriors), close to non disc-burst recharge of 8 seconds. Then 5 second Weapon Swap Fast Hands could still stay in the Discipline tree where it belongs.

> >

> >

>

> Stow weapon/faking out with weapon swap says hi? It won't ALWAYS be at an 8 second cd if you had half a brain on what "high skill cap" Warriors looks like. I will GLADLY get rid of discipline for an STR ARMS DEF eviscerate build. **Fake out potential IS VERY discipline exclusive atm** (You get to fake out Eviscerate more often WITH fast hands, hence it is PIDGEON HOLED into discipline). That is boring and it pidgeonholes Warrior into discipline because a non-discipline build does not have 5 second weapon swap. Do you not understand how Stow weapon, F1, and weapon swaps work? Sometimes you can even use weapon swap to fake people out with Evsiecerate. THAT is what we are trying to make for non-discipline builds as well. But someone who lacks mechanical knowledge is more credible than somebody who actually uses game mechanics as evidence. That would be a GREAT QoL fix to eviscerate builds where people don't want to run discipline all the time.

>

> Btw, you still "didn't" provide a legitimate argument against baseline fast hands. Basically your fail argument is "I'm having trouble with the rotations if we were to have baseline fast hands with an 8 second burst because I don't know what Stow weapon is or I don't know what to do within that time period"

>

> THAT my friend is a fail argument AGAINST fast hands baseline.

>

> You're the only one who has this problem. Good Warriors won't have it, you're probably not a real Warrior main anyways.

>

> But say ANET stops listening to fail arguments and we had baseline fast hands. We could be having builds such as (From a PVP perspective):

>

> STR ARMS DEF

> ARMS DEF ZERKER

> STR DEF SB (Which is kinda already a thing to some people)

> While still having KEEPING the current builds we already have strong and untouched.

>

> All the baseline fast hands people are asking for is build variety. 5 Second weapon swap will ALLOW that because Warrior's skill cap SHOULD be the faking outs with stow and weapon swaps. And your argument that says "your rotation will be messed up if YOU take baseline fast hands without discipline" only works for you, not for other people. **One thing becoming clunky for you does not become CLUNKY for other people, hence why your argument is legitimately FAIL and VERY selfish. And if you think that will be clunky for me, you are DEAD wrong because I will find a way. I'm not some random low theorycrafting Warrior main like someone I know**

>

> Next.

 

No. I just think Fast Hands belongs in the Discipline Tree and that a baseline Weapon Swap of 7 seconds is still a decent buff. It's clear you want 5 seconds no matter what and that 7 seconds is not good enough. You cant even meet halfway. Now you are shouting about stow weapon when that is only used in the most competitive levels of this game by only a few, that's your argument?

 

I am a Warrior main, and I take pride in running non-meta weapons and if that pisses you off then so be it. I am not the "elite" Warrior main who stacks Rampage, Bulls Charge, a Shield, Greatsword, double Endure Pains, and specific Weapon Sigils. While those things might be a requirement in like the top percent of play, they are not anywhere else so do the Warrior community a big favor and stop acting like they are, you are doing more harm then good.

 

Nothing wrong with being reasonable, but if you want to resort to personal attacks instead of the former then so be it.

 

Next time just say 7 seconds is not good enough and we want 5 seconds, skip the personal attacks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BlackTruth.6813]

Also, if your **non-fast hands builds become "Clunky" after 8 second burst yet 5 second cool down**, then count 4 seconds before switching? Why is common sense hard. Nobody is forcing you to switch after 5 seconds EVERYTIME, you are supposed to REACTIVELY SWITCH not methodically switch, what? It's clunky for you (and I'm saying this) because YOU IMPLIED that you're methodical and not reactive.

 

Just because you're having trouble doesn't mean anybody else should, and it isn't a REAL argument to keep baseline fast hands away.

[otto.5684]

Man, I swear this pops up once every month or so.. You do understand that this will be major power creep, and if it is ever implemented tons of other skills will be nerfed.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > Let me ask you a question unrelated to this thread and the issue: Why is it that warrior does not have proper power DPS build in PvE, competetive with Dragonhunter, Holosmith, Elementalist, Soulbeast, Chronomancer, etc?

> >

> > Well granted that warrior is not the one with the worst power dps potential what exactly are you trying to prove with this question? Especially why is it related to _fast hand_?

> >

> > Thought, I can entertain and answer: Warrior does have high passive/active offensive support while being able to dish out an average amount of dps. The fact that it is "offensive support" make it mandatory to take for dps build and thus in order to "balance" damage/utility it can be seen as natural that warrior don't have exceptionnal dps on par with the top dps that sacrifice everything to dps.

>

> I mentioned the question is not related to this thread and the issue. It was just to see your way of argumenting.

> I asked if warrior has proper power DPS build that would be competetive with other proper DPS builds. You replied with adding other parts of class into it, basically that warrior has build that is already in game and is meta ("passive/active offensive support while being able to dish out an average amount of dps" and that "it is mandatory to take for dps build"). Instead of admitting that warrior does not have proper power DPS build in PvE, you chose to argument around what warrior is already strong at. Explain then, how that isn't an implication of "warrior does not need proper power DPS build".

 

Wut? You twist your words. What you asked is clear and sound:

 

> Let me ask you a question unrelated to this thread and the issue: **Why is it that warrior does not have proper power DPS build in PvE, competetive with Dragonhunter, Holosmith, Elementalist, Soulbeast, Chronomancer, etc?**

 

And I answered to that question. Never ever did you ask if warrior had a competitive dps build, you clearly asked **why** he doesn't have one. And the answer is that it's because he provide semi passively offensive support worth 5 extra might stacks to it's party without being dragged down in regard of damage. Just like the necromancer don't have damage on par with other professions because he got defense in-built in it's special mechanism which prevent him from truly being able to be a glass canon.

 

[melandru.3876]

since i can't stand seeing that BlackTruth.6813 kid insulting everyone who doesn't agree with him

 

i'll do the opposite, instead of asking for fast hands base line

 

i will ask for a nerf to weapon sigils. they should proc every 9 second, like every other class and not every 5 seconds like warrior only currently benefits from.

 

 

 

you get what you ask for, attention to the weapon swap, only not all attention is positive ;)

[cryorion.9532]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> since i can't stand seeing that BlackTruth.6813 kid insulting everyone who doesn't agree with him

>

> i'll do the opposite, instead of asking for fast hands base line

>

> i will ask for a nerf to weapon sigils. they should proc every 9 second, like every other class and not every 5 seconds like warrior only currently benefits from.

>

>

>

> you get what you ask for, attention to the weapon swap, only not all attention is positive ;)

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil#On_weapon_swap

They already have 9 second CD :)

[cryorion.9532]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> Man, I swear this pops up once every month or so.. You do understand that this will be major power creep, and if it is ever implemented tons of other skills will be nerfed.

 

OK, so please explain precisely, what builds, traits/traitline synergies, etc, would be over the top, game breaking, or pushing balance into red zone.

I want to discuss this particular thing, but others avoid that and instead argument around why do we want this change.

[BlackTruth.6813]

People are STILL not talking about builds that might be OP? Seriously? LOL

 

Use my template please.

[melandru.3876]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > since i can't stand seeing that BlackTruth.6813 kid insulting everyone who doesn't agree with him

> >

> > i'll do the opposite, instead of asking for fast hands base line

> >

> > i will ask for a nerf to weapon sigils. they should proc every 9 second, like every other class and not every 5 seconds like warrior only currently benefits from.

> >

> >

> >

> > you get what you ask for, attention to the weapon swap, only not all attention is positive ;)

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil#On_weapon_swap

> They already have 9 second CD :)

 

that info is for weapon swaps (9 sec cooldown) on-weapon swap cooldowns (like warrior fast hands, or engi photon forge) both count as weapon swap, on 5 second cooldown and proc weapon swap sigils

 

before you instantly disagree, atleast have the manners to test this out...

[cryorion.9532]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > > since i can't stand seeing that BlackTruth.6813 kid insulting everyone who doesn't agree with him

> > >

> > > i'll do the opposite, instead of asking for fast hands base line

> > >

> > > i will ask for a nerf to weapon sigils. they should proc every 9 second, like every other class and not every 5 seconds like warrior only currently benefits from.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > you get what you ask for, attention to the weapon swap, only not all attention is positive ;)

> >

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil#On_weapon_swap

> > They already have 9 second CD :)

>

> that info is for weapon swaps (9 sec cooldown) on-weapon swap cooldowns (like warrior fast hands, or engi photon forge) both count as weapon swap, on 5 second cooldown and proc weapon swap sigils

>

> before you instantly disagree, atleast have the manners to test this out...

 

No, that is actual cooldown of bonuses on those sigils.

 

No one has ever complained about this, or found it game breaking or being powercreep, but suddenly you are, just to make unknown point.

Or is it now overpowered, broken, that warrior has this advantage from sigils thanks to Fast Hands?

You want to force warriors to stay on weapons for 9 seconds just so they can proc sigils with certainty on next weapon swap? Amazing synergy with Fast Hands right there.

What people come up with trying to prove a point...

[BlackTruth.6813]

The sigil argument would ALMOST be valid if it wasn't for the fact that fire/air is legitimately better if you wanted to hit evade spammers on Warrior in WvW. Just assume that melandru right here is a new player, just be nice to him from now on tbh really.

 

And even then, the sigil argument doesn't give Warrior instant cast burst (LITERALLY hydromancy doesn't burst THAT hard or reliably compared to fire/air), evade spam, or pet AI dodge baits.

 

[BlackTruth.6813]

I'll attempt to argue against myself again in hopes of REDIRECTING the thread to talk about specific builds that might be "bad powercreep."

 

WvW-wise. What about unsuspecting foe? **Could there be ANY unholy synergy with unsuspecting foe** (arms trait) assuming that baseline fast hands is implemented?

 

But like god this is already a losing argument because it's ALREADY hard to stun good players on good builds. There might be a nice soldier's (PVT) build that might work again but then you need to stun somebody to do damage. It probably won't be superior to a Power Ferocity Precision build unless it's a 1v1 vs. certain match up.

 

Baseline fast hands won't be OP for unsuspecting foe PVT builds from what it looks like.

 

And unsuspecting foe with a tanky amulet will be 100% bad in sPvP because then you can't really push people out without stuns.

 

I wonder what other "powercreep" builds are people talking about though that they are so against baseline fast hands.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> I'll attempt to argue against myself again in hopes of REDIRECTING the thread to talk about specific builds that might be "bad powercreep."

>

> What about unsuspecting foe? **Could there be ANY unholy synergy with unsuspecting foe** (arms trait) assuming that baseline fast hands is implemented?

>

> But like god this is already a losing argument because it's ALREADY hard to stun good players on good builds. There might be a nice soldier's (PVT) build that might work again but then you need to stun somebody to be useful.

>

> Baseline fast hands won't be OP for unsuspecting foe PVT builds from what it looks like.

 

Let all those experts to come up with their own builds that they think would be too strong and cause powercreep. If they discuss here, I expect them to have proper class knowledge so they can back up their arguments with it.

I suspect they are unable to name exact examples because of lack of warrior profession knowledge.

They only argument around "why you want this change", not around "how would this change affect warrior class and balance in game". And when you ask all those people proper question, they don't reply in detail as you asked them multiple times (just "powercreep").

And then there is a guy who realizes that Fast Hands suddenly makes weapon swap sigils too strong and it needs nerf... facepalm.

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > I'll attempt to argue against myself again in hopes of REDIRECTING the thread to talk about specific builds that might be "bad powercreep."

> >

> > What about unsuspecting foe? **Could there be ANY unholy synergy with unsuspecting foe** (arms trait) assuming that baseline fast hands is implemented?

> >

> > But like god this is already a losing argument because it's ALREADY hard to stun good players on good builds. There might be a nice soldier's (PVT) build that might work again but then you need to stun somebody to be useful.

> >

> > Baseline fast hands won't be OP for unsuspecting foe PVT builds from what it looks like.

>

> Let all those experts to come up with their own builds that they think would be too strong and cause powercreep. If they discuss here, I expect them to have proper class knowledge so they can back up their arguments with it.

> I suspect they are unable to name exact examples because of lack of warrior profession knowledge.

> They only argument around "why you want this change", not around "how would this change affect warrior class and balance in game". And when you ask all those people proper question, they don't reply in detail as you asked them multiple times (just "powercreep").

> And then there is a guy who realizes that Fast Hands suddenly makes weapon swap sigils too strong and it needs nerf... facepalm.

 

Yeah tbh, I'm having a hard time finding a broken build with baseline fast hands non-discipline. Like were not really going to touch the already strong discipline specs by replacing discipline fast hands with a broken passive. And I could probably argue their side better than they can argue "no baseline fast hands because it is powercreep"

 

Also, the "entitled argument" that says "someone who wants something for free" is actually bad as well. Nothing is "entitled" about providing arguments on how ANET can make Warrior changes that isn't a straight buff. People calling this baseline fast hands an "entitled" thing to do, project a greater evil actually (borderline censorship with garbage arguments).

 

Baseline fast hands and replacing it with a trait that is so insignificant will create more good (build diversity, more ways to re-arrange traits) than evil (we didn't ask for instant cast burst, evade spam, or an OP trait to replace the original minor on discipline). All we asked for is build diversity and to make non-discipline builds work (And by work, I mean make "fake-outs" with weapon swap F1 cancels more available to other trees, not just discipline AND fluidity) WITHOUT touching the current Warrior meta with discipline builds. **Again, NOBODY asked for a straight buff or a catastrophic big buff**

 

Saying "Arms will need more than that, or Berserker will need more than that" IS WHAT LEADS TO POWER CREEP. Legit pay attention people for the love of christ, just because we don't know what ANET will replace it with in theory, that doesn't mean we want a "Straight buff." What I'm saying is make fast hands baseline first and then we can decide on whether Arms, Tactics, and Berserker will need changes (Though I think for Arms and Berserker specifically, baseline fast hands will be ALMOST good enough, tactics is definitely a different problem)

[Obtena.7952]

You won't find a build. That's not what the issue is here. It's irrelevant if you aren't asking for a catastrophic big buff, but it is funny how you and others are trying to sell baseline FH as a minor trifle to justify the change on one hand .... while knowing its real impact to push hard for a baseline implementation on the other hand. No one is fooled; if it was as minor as you claim, it wouldn't be worth the effort. Being dishonest is not convincing.

[Zexanima.7851]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> You won't find a build. That's not what the issue is here. It's irrelevant if you aren't asking for a catastrophic big buff, but it is funny how you and others are trying to sell baseline FH as a minor trifle to justify the change on one hand .... while knowing its real impact to push hard for a baseline implementation on the other hand. No one is fooled; if it was as minor as you claim, it wouldn't be worth the effort. Being dishonest is not convincing.

 

Something being minor doesn't mean it isn't worth the effort. Most of their balance updates are minor changes. Major changes are rare because if there are balance issues with them they are harder to track down. No one is fooled, you're right on that because no one is trying to fool anyone except you. You're not even providing arguments anymore, not that you really were in the first place.

[otto.5684]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > Man, I swear this pops up once every month or so.. You do understand that this will be major power creep, and if it is ever implemented tons of other skills will be nerfed.

>

> OK, so please explain precisely, what builds, traits/traitline synergies, etc, would be over the top, game breaking, or pushing balance into red zone.

> I want to discuss this particular thing, but others avoid that and instead argument around why do we want this change.

 

Any build using strength, SB can now use defense instead of displine, while maintaining the primary trait that displine provides. This is a major buff to a build that after last round of balance patch is the best performing in ranked sPvP. You cannot do this with major nerfs somewhere else.

 

Instead of buffing what is already strong, maybe you should consider focusing your efforts on struggling lines, like berserker, arms and tactics, which out of condi build in PvE, do not provide much.

[Zexanima.7851]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > Man, I swear this pops up once every month or so.. You do understand that this will be major power creep, and if it is ever implemented tons of other skills will be nerfed.

> >

> > OK, so please explain precisely, what builds, traits/traitline synergies, etc, would be over the top, game breaking, or pushing balance into red zone.

> > I want to discuss this particular thing, but others avoid that and instead argument around why do we want this change.

>

> Any build using strength, SB can now use defense instead of displine, while maintaining the primary trait that displine provides. This is a major buff to a build that after last round of balance patch is the best performing in ranked sPvP. You cannot do this with major nerfs somewhere else.

>

> Instead of buffing what is already strong, maybe you should consider focusing your efforts on struggling lines, like berserker, arms and tactics, which out of condi build in PvE, do not provide much.

 

Why would it be major though? It's not FH that makes that build strong, it's the adrenaline gain and burst cdr with some condi cleanse. If FH was baseline and you ran Strength + Defense + Spellbreaker you would still lose out from not having Discipline. You just wouldn't lose the fluidity every major warrior build has. I'm not disagreeing that berserker needs work but that will be a major rework, this is just my suggestion for a minor change. This isn't "the fix" for warrior, it's just a small thing that to me just makes sense to do.

[Loading.4503]

Please argue to have this reverted then.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Persona/history

[Zexanima.7851]

> @"Loading.4503" said:

> Please argue to have this reverted then.

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Persona/history

 

Thanks for this, perfect comparison. I didn't know about this change.

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Loading.4503" said:

> > Please argue to have this reverted then.

> >

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Persona/history

>

> Thanks for this, perfect comparison. I didn't know about this change.

 

You saying this is a perfect comparison is suggesting the notion that your class mechanic would be completely useless without weapon swapping. Also that weapon swapping is explicitly a class mechanic of warrior. Which it isn't.

[Loading.4503]

> @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> You saying this is a perfect comparison is suggesting the notion that your class mechanic would be completely useless without weapon swapping.

 

So you're saying that mesmers were useless before they made that baseline? This one trait going baseline made them useful...

 

 

[cryorion.9532]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > Man, I swear this pops up once every month or so.. You do understand that this will be major power creep, and if it is ever implemented tons of other skills will be nerfed.

> >

> > OK, so please explain precisely, what builds, traits/traitline synergies, etc, would be over the top, game breaking, or pushing balance into red zone.

> > I want to discuss this particular thing, but others avoid that and instead argument around why do we want this change.

>

> Any build using strength, SB can now use defense instead of displine, while maintaining the primary trait that displine provides. This is a major buff to a build that after last round of balance patch is the best performing in ranked sPvP. You cannot do this with major nerfs somewhere else.

>

> Instead of buffing what is already strong, maybe you should consider focusing your efforts on struggling lines, like berserker, arms and tactics, which out of condi build in PvE, do not provide much.

 

Build using strength, defense and spellbreaker would miss all but Fast Hands Discipline traits to it. Bursts and Full Counter would have longer CD, no more condi removal on weapon swap, no more immobilize remove on using mobility skill, no more 25% speed bonus, no more damage bonus while having swiftness, no more damage bonus and adrenaline recovery on using burst skills, no more might and adrenaline gain on weapon swap.

 

Yes, I agree that there is another possible solution, reworking/buffing less used traitlines and giving warrior better trait synergies. I am open to any detailed dicussion about that, too.

[Loading.4503]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > > Man, I swear this pops up once every month or so.. You do understand that this will be major power creep, and if it is ever implemented tons of other skills will be nerfed.

> > >

> > > OK, so please explain precisely, what builds, traits/traitline synergies, etc, would be over the top, game breaking, or pushing balance into red zone.

> > > I want to discuss this particular thing, but others avoid that and instead argument around why do we want this change.

> >

> > Any build using strength, SB can now use defense instead of displine, while maintaining the primary trait that displine provides. This is a major buff to a build that after last round of balance patch is the best performing in ranked sPvP. You cannot do this with major nerfs somewhere else.

> >

> > Instead of buffing what is already strong, maybe you should consider focusing your efforts on struggling lines, like berserker, arms and tactics, which out of condi build in PvE, do not provide much.

>

> Build using strength, defense and spellbreaker would miss all but Fast Hands Discipline traits to it. Bursts and Full Counter would have longer CD, no more condi removal on weapon swap, no more immobilize remove on using mobility skill, no more 25% speed bonus, no more damage bonus while having swiftness, no more damage bonus and adrenaline recovery on using burst skills, no more might and adrenaline gain on weapon swap.

>

> Yes, I agree that there is another possible solution, reworking/buffing less used traitlines and giving warrior better trait synergies. I am open to any detailed dicussion about that, too.

 

it also affects any other trait that requires us to land a burst since we lose out on versatile power, like cleansing ire, berserkers power