Discipline (more specifically, "Fast Hands")

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"Loading.4503" said:

> > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > You saying this is a perfect comparison is suggesting the notion that your class mechanic would be completely useless without weapon swapping.

>

> So you're saying that mesmers were useless before they made that baseline? This one trait going baseline made them useful...

>

>

 

Not sure if you're being obtuse on purpose or missed the point. How well would warrior play if your opponent could activity drain your adrenaline after your generated it. Or if shroud could be drained when not in the form etc etc. The situations are different and there is a clear reason it was made baseline and why when they made scourge the PC counts as a shade from the get go.

 

Also, again, weapon swapping isn't a defining feature of the warrior class.

 

A better comparison is that this exact situation happened before with vital persistence like i outlined and we all know exactly how that ended. Literally necro players were saying things like:

> ... improvement for non-Soul Reaping builds overall to be closer to Soul reaping builds when it comes to practicality.

 

Like Obtena has said if fast hands, like VP was, is such a powerful pick that having it alone justifies taking a traitline over anything else may not suggest that the trait needs to be baseline but the exact opposite, that it is far too strong and needs a change/nerf.

 

This topic comes up every and has been for years. If it was a feasible idea don't you think it would have been done by now?

 

 

 

[Xaylin.1860]

> @"sneakytails.5629" said:

> This request for Fast Hands to become baseline has come up before, and as was mentioned earlier in this thread, Warrior Runes were suggested at that time and immediately dismissed as an alternative. I was a bit skeptical about the dismissal by so many Warriors last time, and I still am today.

 

<3

 

Ehhh... I mean... you are not a real Warrior! Your opinion is invalid!

 

 

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Xaylin.1860" said:

> >"This discussion isn't about creating build diversity or smoother gameplay. Otherwise people would be discussing specific issues with the class and be more open-minded for alternatives."

> This is exactly what I want and actually do. I wrote examples, ask questions.

 

And I made suggestions which also potentially increase build diversity but don't require to make Fast-Hand baseline.

 

I ask again: Aren't those valid solutions for the problem OP and you describe?

 

Okay, okay. My suggestions weren't very specific. So let's be more specific. What about:

* **Dual Whielding** - No longer increases attack speed. Successfully landing a Burst while dual whielding resets your weapon swap.

* **Rousing Resilience** - No longer grants Toughness. Instead, recharge weapon swap when you break out of a stun. ICD.

* **Fatal Frenzy** - Fury moved to Blood Reaction. Recharge your weapon swap by 1s (1s ICD) when hitting a foe while in berserk mode.

 

 

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> From a PvP perspective:

>

> Warrior runes are clunky, you lose out Rune of the Lynx for mobility (If you're not going to use Warrior Sprint, which I'm okay not being baseline but I'm not okay losing mobility as a Melee class with high casting times) if you want to make.a legitimate build. Losing mobility means people are just going to run in a straight line and avoid EVERYTHING you do. Not having mobility is brutal on Warrior dude, it's not THAT easy to play it vs. actual players.

>

> And don't say use Signet of Rage, there is no point in picking that over Rampage.

>

> It would be easier to just make Fast Hands baseline and then replace it with a non-broken trait on discipline. NOBODY is asking for a potentially catastrophic buff, were trying to increase build diversity and trait combinations in the LEAST catastrophic way as possible.

 

A wild **Ulterior Motive** appeared!

~~~ 'Obtena, I choose you!'

 

Dada-daaa, dada-daaaaa ... ~~~

 

You clearly got a very specific expectation how a Warrior - or at least a good build - should play.

* It should have fast weapon swapping

* It should have high mobility

* It should possibly not include Discipline

* The only sacrifice you are willing to make is the Rune slot - but only for one of those 2 effects. One should be for free. Because. Period.

 

Why is Signet of Rage such an unspeakable choice? What about Warhorn? Not your taste? Or MH Sword? Maybe GS?

* There are two options for affecting your weapon swap

* There are plenty options for mobility

 

Now, talking about all possible trait, weapon and skill combinations is difficult. But the issue you're personally facing is quite obvious. In the end, you're not willing to sacrifice anything. You could have both your requirements met but it means making specific choices. You don't want to make those choices. Indirectly calling FH broken while denying any possible effects - or at least downplaying them - within the same sentence doesn't help your argument.

 

This again leads me to the point. If it was about having more options (specifically regarding Weapon swapping), why aren't we actually discussing more options? If the goal is to increase diversity, the potentially smallest impact on power of a class is introducing **alternatives** not making stuff baseline.

 

Another thing: Warrior having more melee weapons than other classes doesn't mean other classes don't have the same issues with meleeing.

 

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Loading.4503" said:

> > Please argue to have this reverted then.

> >

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Persona/history

>

> Thanks for this, perfect comparison. I didn't know about this change.

 

Not completely inaccurate. But let me translate it into Warrior, if it was the perfect comparison.

 

This how it would look like if weapon swap was the actual class mechanic and Warriors were in the same spot as Mesmers back then:

Warriors aren't allowed to weapon swap unless they got at least 1 bar of adrenaline. Weapon swap will go on cooldown regardless of your current Adrenaline - even if it is at 0 and nothing happens. Warriors are also not allowed to generate any adrenaline in large scale scenarios like WvW, Raids or open world PvE.

 

Illusionary Persona was a very powerful trait, no arguing there. But do you feel the comparison lines up?

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Xaylin.1860" said:

> And I made suggestions which also potentially increase build diversity but don't require to make Fast-Hand baseline.

> I ask again: Aren't those valid solutions for the problem OP and you describe?

> Okay, okay. My suggestions weren't very specific. So let's be more specific. What about:

> * **Dual Whielding** - No longer increases attack speed. Successfully landing a Burst while dual whielding resets your weapon swap.

> * **Rousing Resilience** - No longer grants Toughness. Instead, recharge weapon swap when you break out of a stun. ICD.

> * **Fatal Frenzy** - Fury moved to Blood Reaction. Recharge your weapon swap by 1s (1s ICD) when hitting a foe while in berserk mode.

 

Yes. There are alternative ways. If Anet can provide alternatives that would make those builds more playable and enjoyable, then there is no need fo FH baseline.

 

Now to your suggestions:

The problem with first one is that it would make weapon swap related bonuses inconsistent. How would it interact with Discipline traitline?

Alternative to this could be something like "successfully landing a burst after weapon swap within 5 seconds will recharge weapon swap cd by 5 seconds" meaning that if you swap weapons and after 2 seconds you hit someone with burst, your weapon swap cooldown will recharge instantly by 5 seconds, basically making weapon recharge cooldown 5 seconds.

However, there is already another minor trait that does this passively so it doesn't make much sense to change grandmaster trait that would do the same as minor trait, but required more conditions to successfully pull off.

 

The 2nd suggestion is a bit unreliable, when there is no cc or there is high stability uptime, this trait would be useless.

 

The 3rd suggestion would be only improvement to berserker builds, which is not bad, but what about rest of warrior builds?

[Zexanima.7851]

> > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > @"Loading.4503" said:

> > > Please argue to have this reverted then.

> > >

> > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Persona/history

> >

> > Thanks for this, perfect comparison. I didn't know about this change.

>

> Not completely inaccurate. But let me translate it into Warrior, if it was the perfect comparison.

>

> This how it would look like if weapon swap was the actual class mechanic and Warriors were in the same spot as Mesmers back then:

> Warriors aren't allowed to weapon swap unless they got at least 1 bar of adrenaline. Weapon swap will go on cooldown regardless of your current Adrenaline - even if it is at 0 and nothing happens. Warriors are also not allowed to generate any adrenaline in large scale scenarios like WvW, Raids or open world PvE.

>

> Illusionary Persona was a very powerful trait, no arguing there. But do you feel the comparison lines up?

 

I'm guessing here as I don't know for sure, but Illusionary Persona was probably required at the time and narrowed build variety? That's how Discipline is now. It's not 1:1 true, but it's probably about as close a comparison as you can get. I could come up with a dozen ideas (good and bad) that I think would improve warrior, this is just one I was thinking of at work. You've come up with some good alternatives but it still binds the weapon swap cdr to specific traits. Specially traits depending on burst, there is already too much packed into it. Fast hands is strong but warrior is balanced around it at the moment and warrior is by no means over preforming.

 

Just so things are clear up to this point, I'll reiterate on my points

 

* The problems it solves: It __lessens__ the dependency on Discipline.

* Warrior feels synonymous with FH, I stick by this. While some people don't think this is a relevant reason, it is. Other professions have more skills to cycle through and I usually don't feel the 9 second weapon CD like I do on warrior.

* It isn't unprecedented. Other professions have received equivalent and even larger buffs in the past.

* It does **not ** solve every issue with Discipline or the profession, that's not what this thread was about. I do think it is some low hanging fruit though that will put things in the right direction.

 

 

What I'm not suggesting:

 

* Warrior just gets all traits forever as passives

* That warrior receive a complete overhaul so it's top of the meta

* That warrior can't receive nerfs with this buff (Everything profession needs a little nerfing right now anyways)

* That this is the be-all and end-all change that warrior needs.

[Xaylin.1860]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> Yes. There are alternative ways. If Anet can provide alternatives that would make those builds more playable and enjoyable, then there is no need fo FH baseline.

 

Whooooop whooop! Case closed.

 

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> Now to your suggestions:

> The problem with first one is that it would make weapon swap related bonuses inconsistent. How would it interact with Discipline traitline?

> Alternative to this could be something like "successfully landing a burst after weapon swap within 5 seconds will recharge weapon swap cd by 5 seconds" meaning that if you swap weapons and after 2 seconds you hit someone with burst, your weapon swap cooldown will recharge instantly by 5 seconds, basically making weapon recharge cooldown 5 seconds.

> However, there is already another minor trait that does this passively so it doesn't make much sense to change grandmaster trait that would do the same as minor trait, but required more conditions to successfully pull off.

 

Okay. So 5s flat and maybe a secondary benefit. But then we got a deal for Arms?

 

Regarding the interaction with Discipline: It wouldn't be that great. But it doesn't have to be. Because we're talking builds without Discipline. Aren't we? It is no different than many other traits when you over-invest in a specific aspect. You will have a decreasing return on investment due to CDs.

 

> The 2nd suggestion is a bit unreliable, when there is no cc or there is high stability uptime, this trait would be useless.

>

> The 3rd suggestion would be only improvement to berserker builds, which is not bad, but what about rest of warrior builds?

 

Rousing Resilience has always been situational. Defense is more reactive after all. It does clearly have a different purpose than FH but it shares some of its benefits. And yes... Fatal Frenzy is about buffing Berserker. Still. You'd have four out of six traitlines with a weapon swap related CD trait, three of them being baseline. You'd be fine.

 

It is not like every build needs FH. If we are at that point again, we're not discussing build diversity after all. We'd be discussing class design.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Xaylin.1860" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > Yes. There are alternative ways. If Anet can provide alternatives that would make those builds more playable and enjoyable, then there is no need fo FH baseline.

>

> Whooooop whooop! Case closed.

 

Case is not closed because Fast Hands baseline is still an alternative for improving other builds.

[Shadowcat.2680]

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Loading.4503" said:

> > Please argue to have this reverted then.

> >

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Persona/history

>

> Thanks for this, perfect comparison. I didn't know about this change.

 

This mesmer trait was made baseline when Anet completely revamped their build system into the three specialization system it is today.

[Zexanima.7851]

> @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > @"Loading.4503" said:

> > > Please argue to have this reverted then.

> > >

> > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Persona/history

> >

> > Thanks for this, perfect comparison. I didn't know about this change.

>

> This mesmer trait was made baseline when Anet completely revamped their build system into the three specialization system it is today.

 

They should have done the same with fast hands then in my opinion. I bet no one would blink twice if fast hands had just been part of base warrior since that rework.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > You won't find a build. That's not what the issue is here. It's irrelevant if you aren't asking for a catastrophic big buff, but it is funny how you and others are trying to sell baseline FH as a minor trifle to justify the change on one hand .... while knowing its real impact to push hard for a baseline implementation on the other hand. No one is fooled; if it was as minor as you claim, it wouldn't be worth the effort. Being dishonest is not convincing.

>

> Something being minor doesn't mean it isn't worth the effort. Most of their balance updates are minor changes. Major changes are rare because if there are balance issues with them they are harder to track down. No one is fooled, you're right on that because no one is trying to fool anyone except you. You're not even providing arguments anymore, not that you really were in the first place.

 

No it doesn't and that's not my point anyways ... my point is that it's dishonest for people to play off it's 'minor' position as a trait and then on the other hand say it's so necessary in any warrior build that it should be baseline. As I've already said ... if it's a minor trait and it's THAT powerful, you're simply providing an argument that it should be nerfed, not made baseline.

[BlackTruth.6813]

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > From a PvP perspective:

> >

> > Warrior runes are clunky, you lose out Rune of the Lynx for mobility (If you're not going to use Warrior Sprint, which I'm okay not being baseline but I'm not okay losing mobility as a Melee class with high casting times) if you want to make.a legitimate build. Losing mobility means people are just going to run in a straight line and avoid EVERYTHING you do. Not having mobility is brutal on Warrior dude, it's not THAT easy to play it vs. actual players.

> >

> > And don't say use Signet of Rage, there is no point in picking that over Rampage.

> >

> > It would be easier to just make Fast Hands baseline and then replace it with a non-broken trait on discipline. NOBODY is asking for a potentially catastrophic buff, were trying to increase build diversity and trait combinations in the LEAST catastrophic way as possible.

>

> A wild **Ulterior Motive** appeared!

> ~~~ 'Obtena, I choose you!'

>

> Dada-daaa, dada-daaaaa ... ~~~

>

> You clearly got a very specific expectation how a Warrior - or at least a good build - should play.

> * It should have fast weapon swapping

> * It should have high mobility

> * It should possibly not include Discipline

> * The only sacrifice you are willing to make is the Rune slot - but only for one of those 2 effects. One should be for free. Because. Period.

>

> Why is Signet of Rage such an unspeakable choice? What about Warhorn? Not your taste? Or MH Sword? Maybe GS?

> * There are two options for affecting your weapon swap

> * There are plenty options for mobility

 

One should be free BECAUSE it allows "fake-outs" more often AND it allows you to combo more fluidly WITHOUT the discipline trait. You shouldn't be forced to use Discipline for combo fluidity and fake-outs.

 

Nice strawman my friend, this is how the "non-baseline fast hands" crew argue. They deliberately misinterpret my intentions.**I'm not just trying to turn an STR ARMS DEF warrior into the new STR DEF DISC warrior, I'm trying to make the other builds tolerable as well. In the LEAST AMOUNT OF EFFORT AND LEAST CATASTROPHIC WAY** and even then those two builds DO sacrifice something even with baseline fast hands

 

If I were to swap out an STR DIS DEF build with an STR ARMS DEF build, I gain unblockable signet and 100% crit chance on burst, unsuspecting foe. But now I can be vulnerable to immobilize even with rune of the lynx, I lose out on heightened focus from disc tree, I lose out more adrenaline on crit with axe, I lose out destruction of the empowered, I lose out on cleanse conditions on swap. Why do I have to lose out on mind-game potential as well by having to deal with a 9 second weapon swap? At this point all baseline fast hands will do is keep Warrior gameplay consistent, nothing wrong about that. Because the weapon swap ACTUALLY makes a diff for Axes and Hammers i.e cancelling eviscerate and conserving adrenaline for example, OR hammer F1.

 

You are saying that I'm not willing to sacrifice anything? You're saying that Rune slots are the only thing I'm willing to sacrifice? **That is a deliberate misinterpretation and that's dishonest.**

 

**Legit the lack of common sense is disgusting, you actually legit think that Warrior doesn't sacrifice anything even with baseline fast hands? Learn logic** You think losing out Rune of the Scholar isn't big? Think again, that is literally one of the biggest DPS increase in sPVP.

 

 

I could even choose to do Rune of the Sanctuary too with a Tactics Berserker Defense build and just flat out hold a point. Are you trying to invalidate my point of "build variety" by not preparing for what build that I might wanna try out next? Rune of the Lynx wouldn't be the only rune that I would be using, MAYBE, just MAYBE a tactics zerker defense point holder shouts build might work without Rune of the Lynx as well.

You STILL didn't have a REAL argument against baseline fast hands. All it is, is a bunch of garbage arguments like everybody else has been making.

 

>This again leads me to the point. If it was about having more options (specifically regarding Weapon swapping), why aren't we actually discussing more options? If the goal is to increase diversity, the potentially smallest impact on power of a class is introducing alternatives not making stuff baseline.

 

>Another thing: Warrior having more melee weapons than other classes doesn't mean other classes don't have the same issues with meleeing.

 

Because Warrior doesn't have instant cast that they have the biggest issues out of all classes as melee? Your deflects are bad. Nothing wrong about making a Rune of the Lynx build with non-discipline baseline fast hands tolerable to play. All other classes have instant cast ways to CC the target and bait CDs, Warrior doesn't (Fear me pushes targets out of melee range, go figure). But common sense is hard, even though there is a legitimate trade-off infront of you. I'd rather have not someone like you suggest that Warrior gets instant cast or some useless trait which goes to my next point about how your arguments are bad.

 

More importantly, Some of your ideas are absolute garbage.

 

-Rousing Resillience changed into a weapon swap trait? That will NEVER be viable, why would you pick that over cleansing Ire as core, and why would you mess up shout builds that might actually work and synergize with it? Effective HP is already bad as is when there is a lot of ways to burst people nowadays.

-Arms Dual Wield changed into weapon swap recharge? You are NOT using that over the 100% burst crit chance, 100% crit chance bursts are NICE. And the 20% attack speed buff might BARELY make Mace F1 work. Maybe if a build comes out for this that we don't have to revert skull crack to it's original form. And how will we incentivize something like this? Make fast hands baseline so it is not so catastrophic.

 

Your ideas are even worse and is actually a nerf. NOBODY will use those traits, NOBODY. And it is actually a nerf, an undeserved nerf. **Your suggestions are legitimately catastrophically bad for builds that need a small push just to be barely viable as well**

 

You only have one decent idea.

 

>Fatal Frenzy - Fury moved to Blood Reaction. Recharge your weapon swap by 1s (1s ICD) when hitting a foe while in berserk mode.

 

Now this is okay, but it would be EASIER to just flat out just give Baseline fast hands so that ALL combinations will be more available to fake-outs and fluidity. Literally so much work when we could have just got rid of the fundamental problem with one small yet non-broken fix. Not just berserker.

 

Seriously, Next. The only argument that you really would have against baseline fast hands is unblockable + defense builds might be OP.

 

**TL;DR The argument that says "You're not willing to sacrifice anything" is a fail argument because assuming baseline fast hands happens? STR ARMS DEF, and STR DEF DISC are all weak and strong in their own way, and STILL HAVE actual trade-offs (for example one has unblockable signet and Lynx runes [strong against block spammers], Warrior sprint and Scholar runes [strong against classes that don't spam block], but this time both are available to fluid rotations and fake-out weapon switch F1 cancels). Do you want me to compare another build where there ARE sacrifices? Not "willing to sacrifice" anything is ignorant and lacks common sense.** Also your ideas are bad, think of better ones.

[Odik.4587]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

>nonsense text

If warrior unblockable dodge gets 200 base damage , rampage 240s cd, bullcharge 50s cd with 50% damage nerf . You can have FH baseline imo

Srsly , it feels like OP came straight from kindergarten and demand FH to be base for free based on.. what? Thieves dont really feel well playing without trickery so imagine them cry about making sleight of hand and bonus initiative base BECAUSE they cant play without it (and so every class)

[Xaylin.1860]

This discussion is ridiculus. I have been very constructive since I'm all for theory crafting or improving the game. However, I've been mostly met with insults, childish rants or at best irritating ignorance.

 

I'll see myself and my deflective strawman arguments out so you can find bliss in unreflected agreement on the future for this class. Despite your agreement, it will probably not include baseline FH.

 

TL:DR

Your loss. Have a great time. ?

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Xaylin.1860" said:

> This discussion is ridiculus. I have been very constructive since I'm all for theory crafting or improving the game. However, I've been mostly met with insults, childish rants or at best irritating ignorance.

>

> I'll see myself and my deflective strawman arguments out so you can find bliss in unreflected agreement on the future for this class. Despite your agreement, it will probably not include baseline FH.

>

> TL:DR

> Your loss. Have a great time. ?

 

Exactly, exit the stage quietly because you can't find a real argument AGAINST baseline fast hands. My evidence? You didn't try to counter my argument that says "Warrior still has to sacrifice for something" even with baseline fast hands, you gave up you **OBJECTIVELY** lost. Next. The feelings based "you loss" though is so in denial, the cringe is real XD

 

TL;DR In denial, triggered because his ideas are legit bad, and can't fight back anymore.

 

 

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> >nonsense text

> If warrior unblockable dodge gets 200 base damage , rampage 240s cd, bullcharge 50s cd with 50% damage nerf . You can have FH baseline imo

> Srsly , it feels like OP came straight from kindergarten and demand FH to be base for free based on.. what? Thieves dont really feel well playing without trickery so imagine them cry about making sleight of hand and bonus initiative base BECAUSE they cant play without it (and so every class)

 

 

Also I don't mind reckless dodge getting gutted, personally. We don't need evading while attacking mechanics. Rampage can only get nerfed if soulbeast and chrono instant cast burst gets nerfed. Reckless can go, I don't care. You're right, bullscharge should only CC, not deal insane damage as well. It was fine as a CC tool and you can already use it to escape as well. I don't know why they added an evade and more damage when it was already fine. Warrior should be fine even without reckless dodge and bull's charge tbh, bull's charge is just buggy and reckless dodge is just evading while attacking mechanics (which I NEVER really liked at all on any class)

[Odik.4587]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> Also I don't mind reckless dodge getting gutted, personally. We don't need evading while attacking mechanics. Rampage can only get nerfed if soulbeast and chrono instant cast burst gets nerfed. Reckless can go, I don't care. You're right, bullscharge should only CC, not deal insane damage as well. It was fine as a CC tool and you can already use it to escape as well. I don't know why they added an evade and more damage when it was already fine.

Fyi entire mesmer class holding on a thin wire called scepter and probably chaos and when its gone that GS is only thing to play with (which isnt good alrdy except for killing unaware ppl) If anet gives mesmer other way to play it I'm all for it :)

There is no excuses to leave rampage for whatever reason. Any skll potentially oneshots and its not hard to exhaust your opponent before going rampage .

(At least you agree on reckless and BC , yay )

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > Also I don't mind reckless dodge getting gutted, personally. We don't need evading while attacking mechanics. Rampage can only get nerfed if soulbeast and chrono instant cast burst gets nerfed. Reckless can go, I don't care. You're right, bullscharge should only CC, not deal insane damage as well. It was fine as a CC tool and you can already use it to escape as well. I don't know why they added an evade and more damage when it was already fine.

> Fyi entire mesmer class holding on a thin wire called scepter and probably chaos and when its gone that GS is only thing to play with (which isnt good alrdy except for killing unaware ppl) If anet gives mesmer other way to play it I'm all for it :)

> There is no excuses to leave rampage for whatever reason. Any skll potentially oneshots and its not hard to exhaust your opponent before going rampage .

> (At least you agree on reckless and BC , yay )

 

Like I said I try to not be biased, I only want fixes that aren't catastrophic.

[Odik.4587]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > Also I don't mind reckless dodge getting gutted, personally. We don't need evading while attacking mechanics. Rampage can only get nerfed if soulbeast and chrono instant cast burst gets nerfed. Reckless can go, I don't care. You're right, bullscharge should only CC, not deal insane damage as well. It was fine as a CC tool and you can already use it to escape as well. I don't know why they added an evade and more damage when it was already fine.

> > Fyi entire mesmer class holding on a thin wire called scepter and probably chaos and when its gone that GS is only thing to play with (which isnt good alrdy except for killing unaware ppl) If anet gives mesmer other way to play it I'm all for it :)

> > There is no excuses to leave rampage for whatever reason. Any skll potentially oneshots and its not hard to exhaust your opponent before going rampage .

> > (At least you agree on reckless and BC , yay )

>

> Like I said I try to not be biased, I only want fixes that aren't catastrophic.

Tbh you ignoring Obtena posts way too much. He alrdy gave you an example of soulreapin on necro ,that ended up removal of the trait (but they buffed spectrals as compensation at least...) So be careful with your wishes.

Also BF base wont make things way too much different and you still would miss sprint/cleanse on swap and adrenaline on swap ,this change will make BF with new trait even more desirable. Also for warrior (spellbreaker) would be very reasonable to ask to make revenge counter to increase damage from FC by 100% . Ask to fix this inconsistent rush, dagger leaps,both ,they arent connecting a lot and ppl abuse it against you by walking into you (or something like this) . I'm not warrior main but I play it way more often since they killed mirage and I'd like to see this fixes instead to make my gameplay smooth and not buggy.

Ironically catastrophic is how you can describe state of the berserker,arms traitline,tactics and dagger mainhand (at least in pvp)

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > Also I don't mind reckless dodge getting gutted, personally. We don't need evading while attacking mechanics. Rampage can only get nerfed if soulbeast and chrono instant cast burst gets nerfed. Reckless can go, I don't care. You're right, bullscharge should only CC, not deal insane damage as well. It was fine as a CC tool and you can already use it to escape as well. I don't know why they added an evade and more damage when it was already fine.

> > > Fyi entire mesmer class holding on a thin wire called scepter and probably chaos and when its gone that GS is only thing to play with (which isnt good alrdy except for killing unaware ppl) If anet gives mesmer other way to play it I'm all for it :)

> > > There is no excuses to leave rampage for whatever reason. Any skll potentially oneshots and its not hard to exhaust your opponent before going rampage .

> > > (At least you agree on reckless and BC , yay )

> >

> > Like I said I try to not be biased, I only want fixes that aren't catastrophic.

> Tbh you ignoring Obtena posts way too much. He alrdy gave you an example of soulreapin on necro ,that ended up removal of the trait (but they buffed spectrals as compensation at least...) So be careful with your wishes.

> Also BF base wont make things way too much different and you still would miss sprint/cleanse on swap and adrenaline on swap ,this change will make BF with new trait even more desirable. Also for warrior (spellbreaker) would be very reasonable to ask to make revenge counter to increase damage from FC by 100% . Ask to fix this inconsistent rush, dagger leaps,both ,they arent connecting a lot and ppl abuse it against you by walking into you (or something like this) . I'm not warrior main but I play it way more often since they killed mirage and I'd like to see this fixes instead to make my gameplay smooth and not buggy

 

Yeah that's why I asked what "WARRIOR" build might become OP with baseline fast hands. Assuming that they don't replace the discipline trait with something broken, IF fast hands baseline does happen. Making an example from other classes doesn't make sense, Warrior can't just chain fear people to death without having to wait stability out if Necro is going to be a legitimate example (Unless you're saying Fear Me stun lock while doing damage works, god I miss those days when I could actually do that XD).

 

People are paranoid about the trait replacement, but I'm not asking for them to replace it with something OP. Maybe just 1 second of fury when you swap weapons.

 

I'm suspecting people will start complaining about unsuspecting foe, unblockable builds, and rousing resillience, but I can't see those builds with baseline fast hands and no discipline being stronger than the current warrior meta. Just want a different way to align traits really.

[Odik.4587]

Not sure If i understand you correctly but warrior can pretty much stunlock you to death thanks to boonrip on spellbreaker and immob on CC also will prevent them from evading. You know ppl do only 1 dodge mechanically after breakstun, but they cant because immob, so they dont expect they wont dodge, mind games...

I agree ranger is dumb and its damage just ridiculous but its not something we have control over. Such biased hypocrites as Trevor get in the way of bringing justified nerfs on this using exact same arguments as certain mirage players :)

(I thought you would be hostile to me since I main mesmer... :blush: )

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> Not sure If i understand you correctly but warrior can pretty much stunlock you to death thanks to boonrip on spellbreaker and immob on CC also will prevent them from evading. You know ppl do only 1 dodge mechanically after breakstun, but they cant because immob, so they dont expect they wont dodge, mind games...

> I agree ranger is dumb and its damage just ridiculous but its not something we have control over. Such biased hypocrites as Trevor get in the way of bringing justified nerfs on this using exact same arguments as certain mirage players :)

> (I thought you would be hostile to me since I main mesmer... :blush: )

>

 

There are exceptions, I have respect for countless and zeromis for example. I have respect for Hiro/Talgo for ranger mains as well (sad he doesn't play anymore, he would tank people on a point when everybody was saying ranger was underpowered XD)

 

Also, now that I think about it, maybe **unsuspecting foe spellbreaker might become strong** (THIS is how we should be discussing people)

 

Spellbreaker might start being able to do damage with soldier gear (PVT) in WvW, and with Cavalier amulet in PvP IF baseline fasthands is implemented. Any thoughts on that? Arms + Def + Spellbreaker, Str + Arms + Spellbreaker for example.

[Odik.4587]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > Not sure If i understand you correctly but warrior can pretty much stunlock you to death thanks to boonrip on spellbreaker and immob on CC also will prevent them from evading. You know ppl do only 1 dodge mechanically after breakstun, but they cant because immob, so they dont expect they wont dodge, mind games...

> > I agree ranger is dumb and its damage just ridiculous but its not something we have control over. Such biased hypocrites as Trevor get in the way of bringing justified nerfs on this using exact same arguments as certain mirage players :)

> > (I thought you would be hostile to me since I main mesmer... :blush: )

> >

>

> There are exceptions, I have respect for countless and zeromis for example.

>

> Also, now that I think about it, maybe **unsuspecting foe spellbreaker might become strong** (THIS is how we should be discussing people)

>

> Spellbreaker might start being able to do damage with soldier amulet in WvW, and with Cavalier amulet in PvP IF baseline fasthands is implemented. Any thoughts on that?

 

The only problem could be defense/str/tether spb because...obvious huge sustain/huge admage thing ,basically becoming a scrapper2 but that also hate boons and goes rampage to solve the matter once getting outplayed ,somehow xd

The answer is : we need testing . We need to try it live. But guess who dont have test servers where you can actually test stuff before release?

Many 'useless' traits could have a rework or something . I honestly think arms wont be very competitive in pvp ever until some rework happen

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > Not sure If i understand you correctly but warrior can pretty much stunlock you to death thanks to boonrip on spellbreaker and immob on CC also will prevent them from evading. You know ppl do only 1 dodge mechanically after breakstun, but they cant because immob, so they dont expect they wont dodge, mind games...

> > > I agree ranger is dumb and its damage just ridiculous but its not something we have control over. Such biased hypocrites as Trevor get in the way of bringing justified nerfs on this using exact same arguments as certain mirage players :)

> > > (I thought you would be hostile to me since I main mesmer... :blush: )

> > >

> >

> > There are exceptions, I have respect for countless and zeromis for example.

> >

> > Also, now that I think about it, maybe **unsuspecting foe spellbreaker might become strong** (THIS is how we should be discussing people)

> >

> > Spellbreaker might start being able to do damage with soldier amulet in WvW, and with Cavalier amulet in PvP IF baseline fasthands is implemented. Any thoughts on that?

>

> The only problem could be defense/str/tether spb because...obvious huge sustain/huge admage thing ,basically becoming a scrapper2 but that also hate boons and goes rampage to solve the matter once getting outplayed ,somehow xd

> The answer is : we need testing . We need to try it live. But guess who dont have test servers where you can actually test stuff before release?

> Many 'useless' traits could have a rework or something . I honestly think arms wont be very competitive in pvp ever until some rework happen

 

Yeah you're right, I am hoping ANET is willing to hotfix nowadays as well if something "catastrophic" happens.

[melandru.3876]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > Not sure If i understand you correctly but warrior can pretty much stunlock you to death thanks to boonrip on spellbreaker and immob on CC also will prevent them from evading. You know ppl do only 1 dodge mechanically after breakstun, but they cant because immob, so they dont expect they wont dodge, mind games...

> > I agree ranger is dumb and its damage just ridiculous but its not something we have control over. Such biased hypocrites as Trevor get in the way of bringing justified nerfs on this using exact same arguments as certain mirage players :)

> > (I thought you would be hostile to me since I main mesmer... :blush: )

> >

>

> There are exceptions, I have respect for countless and zeromis for example. I have respect for Hiro/Talgo for ranger mains as well (sad he doesn't play anymore, he would tank people on a point when everybody was saying ranger was underpowered XD)

>

> Also, now that I think about it, maybe **unsuspecting foe spellbreaker might become strong** (THIS is how we should be discussing people)

>

> Spellbreaker might start being able to do damage with soldier amulet in WvW, and with Cavalier amulet in PvP IF baseline fasthands is implemented. Any thoughts on that? Arms + Def + Spellbreaker, Str + Arms + Spellbreaker for example.

 

amulets in wvw?

new player detected..

[BlackTruth.6813]

Lol why did I say amulet, I meant PVT gear XD LOL (this one is an honest mistake, but people would get what I'm saying anyways. And at least I correct myself lmao)

[Odik.4587]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > Not sure If i understand you correctly but warrior can pretty much stunlock you to death thanks to boonrip on spellbreaker and immob on CC also will prevent them from evading. You know ppl do only 1 dodge mechanically after breakstun, but they cant because immob, so they dont expect they wont dodge, mind games...

> > > I agree ranger is dumb and its damage just ridiculous but its not something we have control over. Such biased hypocrites as Trevor get in the way of bringing justified nerfs on this using exact same arguments as certain mirage players :)

> > > (I thought you would be hostile to me since I main mesmer... :blush: )

> > >

> >

> > There are exceptions, I have respect for countless and zeromis for example. I have respect for Hiro/Talgo for ranger mains as well (sad he doesn't play anymore, he would tank people on a point when everybody was saying ranger was underpowered XD)

> >

> > Also, now that I think about it, maybe **unsuspecting foe spellbreaker might become strong** (THIS is how we should be discussing people)

> >

> > Spellbreaker might start being able to do damage with soldier amulet in WvW, and with Cavalier amulet in PvP IF baseline fasthands is implemented. Any thoughts on that? Arms + Def + Spellbreaker, Str + Arms + Spellbreaker for example.

>

> amulets in wvw?

> new player detected..

Wow he said soldier amulet ! which doesnt exist in pvp for a long time ...may be thats you who is the new ?(also that obvious he meant soldier armor) Your thread about weapon swapping is a meme dude, you cant get sigils on swap faster than its CD because they would be still on CD.

@"BlackTruth.6813"

Everyone hate me tho , why wouldnt you hate me as well ? :open_mouth:

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > Not sure If i understand you correctly but warrior can pretty much stunlock you to death thanks to boonrip on spellbreaker and immob on CC also will prevent them from evading. You know ppl do only 1 dodge mechanically after breakstun, but they cant because immob, so they dont expect they wont dodge, mind games...

> > > > I agree ranger is dumb and its damage just ridiculous but its not something we have control over. Such biased hypocrites as Trevor get in the way of bringing justified nerfs on this using exact same arguments as certain mirage players :)

> > > > (I thought you would be hostile to me since I main mesmer... :blush: )

> > > >

> > >

> > > There are exceptions, I have respect for countless and zeromis for example. I have respect for Hiro/Talgo for ranger mains as well (sad he doesn't play anymore, he would tank people on a point when everybody was saying ranger was underpowered XD)

> > >

> > > Also, now that I think about it, maybe **unsuspecting foe spellbreaker might become strong** (THIS is how we should be discussing people)

> > >

> > > Spellbreaker might start being able to do damage with soldier amulet in WvW, and with Cavalier amulet in PvP IF baseline fasthands is implemented. Any thoughts on that? Arms + Def + Spellbreaker, Str + Arms + Spellbreaker for example.

> >

> > amulets in wvw?

> > new player detected..

> Wow he said soldier amulet ! which doesnt exist in pvp for a long time ...may be thats you who is the new ?(also that obvious he meant soldier armor) Your thread about weapon swapping is a meme dude, you cant get sigils on swap faster than its CD because they would be still on CD.

> @"BlackTruth.6813"

> Everyone hate me tho , why wouldnt you hate me as well ? :open_mouth:

 

Well.. who else is willing to talk about builds that "might become OP" if baseline fast hands comes out? You can see why from there.