At what point is a single burst too strong?

[toxic.3648]

> @"Mbelch.9028" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > ...Snips...

>

>

> I'm confused about your whole back and forth with @"Vagrant.7206" as the following set of statements are as close to "facts" as you get:

> * It's not possible for the META builds to stack 25 stacks of might unless they get very lucky on a conversion build, and it's plain old not possible on its own in a rifle build.

> * There's no such thing as a one-shot Holosmith build that is viable in any realm of high-level PvP.

> * When debating what is or isn't "a one shot build" it's hard to lump engineer in with that. No one skill has one-shot people on engi since 100-nades. The build I think you dislike is a spike build that utilizes a lot of CC plus a lot of little hits to kill you quickly. But it doesn't always work against skilled players and it doesn't work in games.

> * Holo dishes out great damage and can still survive a licking, which some certainly would see as a problem. But folks always see problems. Too much damage? That's a problem. Too little damage? That's a problem. Too many condis? That's a problem. Too many bruisers? That's a problem. There's no panacea for balance, and Holo sits pretty well in the meta right now. It has counters and it counters certain classes. Seems fine to me right now.

 


 

it is possible to get 25 stacks of might on elixir build. holo can ez self stack 12-15 stacks of might. now imagine getting some dmg and hidden flask b pops with another 7 might. now ure at 19-22 stacks. convert a torment and we're at 22-25 stacks . mind u this is easely done without even trying on "META ELIXIR SD BUILD"

 

so holo downing the heavy golem in 2 sec from a combo that can be done every 15 sec is not counted as 1 shot? i mean it uses 5-6 skills to pull this off but when u look at power mesmer using 5-6 skills pulling off the same thing in 1 sec thats considered 1 shot while holo is considered spike?

in that case id rather fight a power mes any day since u know theres no dmg comming after his burst while holo is gonna keep nuking u after burst rotation is done

 

also i play in plat 2-3 in EU when i can be asked to bother with ranked . this 1 spike burst is happening on meta elixir build in those divisions. why spec for offmeta 1 sec 1 shot build when normal meta build does the same thing in 2 secs ??

 

the problem with holo is it got too much of everything. /perma swiftness and vigor/easy acces to stab and quickness/sustain is easy 15k healing every 20 sec when counting HT and passives/enough dmg to down a max toughness, 21k hp golem in 2 secs from 1 rotation/the fact that they got 6 sec aoe stealth on 31 sec cd(closest we get to this is mesmer elite 5 sec stealth on 90 cd. thats 18 sec of engi stealth for mes 5 lol)/easy cc on short cd/mobility and superspeed to disengage/invul for those 'oh shit' moments/constant output of 5-6 boons when fighting/being tanky on top of all this since demo amulet is bae... i mean i could go on but im sure u get the picture by now.

 

sure stacked up to other pof specs it might not seem like much but as i already said. only classes holo feels weak to right now is wellplayed warriors and necros(corrupt boons) boonbeast is just stalemate..

and ive been playing only holo since pof released

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

> @"toxic.3648" said:

> the problem with holo is it got too much of everything. /perma swiftness and vigor/easy acces to stab and quickness/sustain is easy 15k healing every 20 sec when counting HT and passives/enough dmg to down a max toughness, 21k hp golem in 2 secs from 1 rotation/the fact that they got 6 sec aoe stealth on 31 sec cd(closest we get to this is mesmer elite 5 sec stealth on 90 cd. thats 18 sec of engi stealth for mes 5 lol)/easy cc on short cd/mobility and superspeed to disengage/invul for those 'oh kitten' moments/constant output of 5-6 boons when fighting/being tanky on top of all this since demo amulet is bae... i mean i could go on but im sure u get the picture by now.

 

Uh oh, this sounds like the makings of a Jawgeous-style rant video. ;)

 

In seriousness, I have to give credit to anyone who acknowledges issues with their profession, whatever it may be.

[toxic.3648]

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > @"toxic.3648" said:

> > the problem with holo is it got too much of everything. /perma swiftness and vigor/easy acces to stab and quickness/sustain is easy 15k healing every 20 sec when counting HT and passives/enough dmg to down a max toughness, 21k hp golem in 2 secs from 1 rotation/the fact that they got 6 sec aoe stealth on 31 sec cd(closest we get to this is mesmer elite 5 sec stealth on 90 cd. thats 18 sec of engi stealth for mes 5 lol)/easy cc on short cd/mobility and superspeed to disengage/invul for those 'oh kitten' moments/constant output of 5-6 boons when fighting/being tanky on top of all this since demo amulet is bae... i mean i could go on but im sure u get the picture by now.

>

> Uh oh, this sounds like the makings of a Jawgeous-style rant video. ;)

>

> In seriousness, I have to give credit to anyone who acknowledges issues with their profession, whatever it may be.

 

ye thought that too when i read it afterwards rolf xD sure i want holo to be strong since i main the thing, but atm its overperforming by alot imo ^^

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > It's powercreeped to hell and back. But as far as other elite specs from PoF go, I still can't say it stands out in particular - it's on par with the other specs.

> > > (...)

> > > in absolute terms, yes, it's OP. But in relative terms, it's not.

> >

> > I'd say Holo is easily #1 or #2 for overall PvP efficacy, only possibly behind SB.

>

> I'm watching this latest [broken class thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/73191/most-broken-class-right-now "broken class thread"). Holo is getting some mentions (as it rightfully should, it is powerful), but I don't think the majority agree that it is #1 or #2.

>

> That said, it is one of the professions that allows for the greatest diversity in builds in PvP right now, which means it is high on the board because it's not being shoehorned like other classes. Engineer is one of the least-played professions, so maybe that's why fewer people complain about it.

 

I took a look at that poll. It's well intended but hopelessly flawed in its current state. It's literally missing at least 3 items that really should be on there, yet breaks out three variants of Mesmers. _**Holo isn't even listed!**_

 

And if condi-Mirage's lead in that poll is any indication, I must agree with @"Odik.4587" that it's more telling of what people dislike as opposed to what is "broken".

[shadowpass.4236]

Removing berserker amulet from sPvP would help reduce the amount of 1 shot builds.

[Mbelch.9028]

> @"toxic.3648" said:

> > @"Mbelch.9028" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > ...Snips...

> >

> >

> > I'm confused about your whole back and forth with @"Vagrant.7206" as the following set of statements are as close to "facts" as you get:

> > * It's not possible for the META builds to stack 25 stacks of might unless they get very lucky on a conversion build, and it's plain old not possible on its own in a rifle build.

> > * There's no such thing as a one-shot Holosmith build that is viable in any realm of high-level PvP.

> > * When debating what is or isn't "a one shot build" it's hard to lump engineer in with that. No one skill has one-shot people on engi since 100-nades. The build I think you dislike is a spike build that utilizes a lot of CC plus a lot of little hits to kill you quickly. But it doesn't always work against skilled players and it doesn't work in games.

> > * Holo dishes out great damage and can still survive a licking, which some certainly would see as a problem. But folks always see problems. Too much damage? That's a problem. Too little damage? That's a problem. Too many condis? That's a problem. Too many bruisers? That's a problem. There's no panacea for balance, and Holo sits pretty well in the meta right now. It has counters and it counters certain classes. Seems fine to me right now.

>

> 

>

> it is possible to get 25 stacks of might on elixir build. holo can ez self stack 12-15 stacks of might. now imagine getting some dmg and hidden flask b pops with another 7 might. now ure at 19-22 stacks. convert a torment and we're at 22-25 stacks . mind u this is easely done without even trying on "META ELIXIR SD BUILD"

>

> so holo downing the heavy golem in 2 sec from a combo that can be done every 15 sec is not counted as 1 shot? i mean it uses 5-6 skills to pull this off but when u look at power mesmer using 5-6 skills pulling off the same thing in 1 sec thats considered 1 shot while holo is considered spike?

> in that case id rather fight a power mes any day since u know theres no dmg comming after his burst while holo is gonna keep nuking u after burst rotation is done

>

> also i play in plat 2-3 in EU when i can be asked to bother with ranked . this 1 spike burst is happening on meta elixir build in those divisions. why spec for offmeta 1 sec 1 shot build when normal meta build does the same thing in 2 secs ??

>

> the problem with holo is it got too much of everything. /perma swiftness and vigor/easy acces to stab and quickness/sustain is easy 15k healing every 20 sec when counting HT and passives/enough dmg to down a max toughness, 21k hp golem in 2 secs from 1 rotation/the fact that they got 6 sec aoe stealth on 31 sec cd(closest we get to this is mesmer elite 5 sec stealth on 90 cd. thats 18 sec of engi stealth for mes 5 lol)/easy cc on short cd/mobility and superspeed to disengage/invul for those 'oh kitten' moments/constant output of 5-6 boons when fighting/being tanky on top of all this since demo amulet is bae... i mean i could go on but im sure u get the picture by now.

>

> sure stacked up to other pof specs it might not seem like much but as i already said. only classes holo feels weak to right now is wellplayed warriors and necros(corrupt boons) boonbeast is just stalemate..

> and ive been playing only holo since pof released

 

If you've only been playing Holo, then why are you trying to drag it down? I've historically called for Holo shaves, but real nerfs need to be done in conjunction with nerfing other specs, too.

 

That's my point, it's not out of line with the meta. If you play one-shot holo, you're irrelevant, if you play Demolishers DPS (very different from one-shot) you're outclassed DPS wise by rev, if you play bunker conversion, you bring team utility, but are a worse bunker than a scrapper.

 

Holo isn't out of line with anything that is currently played, so I can't agree with just about anything you're saying until PoF is toned down as a whole. Even then, HoT will need to be re-addressed, too. Everything is creeped to hell past core.

 

PS: To your pic, it's not possible to sustain 25 stacks of might on that build. Maybe get there especially with leadership, but I don't particularly love HGH. Good call-out though. That build stacks might higher than the iron-blood builds I'm used to running.

[Odik.4587]

> @"Mbelch.9028" said:

> > @"toxic.3648" said:

> > > @"Mbelch.9028" said:

> > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > ...Snips...

> > >

> > >

> > > I'm confused about your whole back and forth with @"Vagrant.7206" as the following set of statements are as close to "facts" as you get:

> > > * It's not possible for the META builds to stack 25 stacks of might unless they get very lucky on a conversion build, and it's plain old not possible on its own in a rifle build.

> > > * There's no such thing as a one-shot Holosmith build that is viable in any realm of high-level PvP.

> > > * When debating what is or isn't "a one shot build" it's hard to lump engineer in with that. No one skill has one-shot people on engi since 100-nades. The build I think you dislike is a spike build that utilizes a lot of CC plus a lot of little hits to kill you quickly. But it doesn't always work against skilled players and it doesn't work in games.

> > > * Holo dishes out great damage and can still survive a licking, which some certainly would see as a problem. But folks always see problems. Too much damage? That's a problem. Too little damage? That's a problem. Too many condis? That's a problem. Too many bruisers? That's a problem. There's no panacea for balance, and Holo sits pretty well in the meta right now. It has counters and it counters certain classes. Seems fine to me right now.

> >

> > 

> >

> > it is possible to get 25 stacks of might on elixir build. holo can ez self stack 12-15 stacks of might. now imagine getting some dmg and hidden flask b pops with another 7 might. now ure at 19-22 stacks. convert a torment and we're at 22-25 stacks . mind u this is easely done without even trying on "META ELIXIR SD BUILD"

> >

> > so holo downing the heavy golem in 2 sec from a combo that can be done every 15 sec is not counted as 1 shot? i mean it uses 5-6 skills to pull this off but when u look at power mesmer using 5-6 skills pulling off the same thing in 1 sec thats considered 1 shot while holo is considered spike?

> > in that case id rather fight a power mes any day since u know theres no dmg comming after his burst while holo is gonna keep nuking u after burst rotation is done

> >

> > also i play in plat 2-3 in EU when i can be asked to bother with ranked . this 1 spike burst is happening on meta elixir build in those divisions. why spec for offmeta 1 sec 1 shot build when normal meta build does the same thing in 2 secs ??

> >

> > the problem with holo is it got too much of everything. /perma swiftness and vigor/easy acces to stab and quickness/sustain is easy 15k healing every 20 sec when counting HT and passives/enough dmg to down a max toughness, 21k hp golem in 2 secs from 1 rotation/the fact that they got 6 sec aoe stealth on 31 sec cd(closest we get to this is mesmer elite 5 sec stealth on 90 cd. thats 18 sec of engi stealth for mes 5 lol)/easy cc on short cd/mobility and superspeed to disengage/invul for those 'oh kitten' moments/constant output of 5-6 boons when fighting/being tanky on top of all this since demo amulet is bae... i mean i could go on but im sure u get the picture by now.

> >

> > sure stacked up to other pof specs it might not seem like much but as i already said. only classes holo feels weak to right now is wellplayed warriors and necros(corrupt boons) boonbeast is just stalemate..

> > and ive been playing only holo since pof released

>

> If you've only been playing Holo, then why are you trying to drag it down? I've historically called for Holo shaves, but real nerfs need to be done in conjunction with nerfing other specs, too.

>

> That's my point, it's not out of line with the meta. If you play one-shot holo, you're irrelevant, if you play Demolishers DPS (very different from one-shot) you're outclassed DPS wise by rev, if you play bunker conversion, you bring team utility, but are a worse bunker than a scrapper.

>

> Holo isn't out of line with anything that is currently played, so I can't agree with just about anything you're saying until PoF is toned down as a whole. Even then, HoT will need to be re-addressed, too. Everything is creeped to hell past core.

>

> PS: To your pic, it's not possible to sustain 25 stacks of might on that build. Maybe get there especially with leadership, but I don't particularly love HGH. Good call-out though. That build stacks might higher than the iron-blood builds I'm used to running.

How does he dare to talk honestly about yet another OP af spec... With that logic I should totally defend incissor in his every post since forever and be biased as possible. Ok ,point taken . Mirage never been more OP than others and undeservedly got nerfed all the time! How you can say mirage is OP after 66% damage nerfs and removal of core trait that been with us 7 years? Why mirage all the time nerfed and others are not ?

[toxic.3648]

> @"Mbelch.9028" said:

> > @"toxic.3648" said:

> > > @"Mbelch.9028" said:

> > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > ...Snips...

> > >

> > >

> > > I'm confused about your whole back and forth with @"Vagrant.7206" as the following set of statements are as close to "facts" as you get:

> > > * It's not possible for the META builds to stack 25 stacks of might unless they get very lucky on a conversion build, and it's plain old not possible on its own in a rifle build.

> > > * There's no such thing as a one-shot Holosmith build that is viable in any realm of high-level PvP.

> > > * When debating what is or isn't "a one shot build" it's hard to lump engineer in with that. No one skill has one-shot people on engi since 100-nades. The build I think you dislike is a spike build that utilizes a lot of CC plus a lot of little hits to kill you quickly. But it doesn't always work against skilled players and it doesn't work in games.

> > > * Holo dishes out great damage and can still survive a licking, which some certainly would see as a problem. But folks always see problems. Too much damage? That's a problem. Too little damage? That's a problem. Too many condis? That's a problem. Too many bruisers? That's a problem. There's no panacea for balance, and Holo sits pretty well in the meta right now. It has counters and it counters certain classes. Seems fine to me right now.

> >

> > 

> >

> > it is possible to get 25 stacks of might on elixir build. holo can ez self stack 12-15 stacks of might. now imagine getting some dmg and hidden flask b pops with another 7 might. now ure at 19-22 stacks. convert a torment and we're at 22-25 stacks . mind u this is easely done without even trying on "META ELIXIR SD BUILD"

> >

> > so holo downing the heavy golem in 2 sec from a combo that can be done every 15 sec is not counted as 1 shot? i mean it uses 5-6 skills to pull this off but when u look at power mesmer using 5-6 skills pulling off the same thing in 1 sec thats considered 1 shot while holo is considered spike?

> > in that case id rather fight a power mes any day since u know theres no dmg comming after his burst while holo is gonna keep nuking u after burst rotation is done

> >

> > also i play in plat 2-3 in EU when i can be asked to bother with ranked . this 1 spike burst is happening on meta elixir build in those divisions. why spec for offmeta 1 sec 1 shot build when normal meta build does the same thing in 2 secs ??

> >

> > the problem with holo is it got too much of everything. /perma swiftness and vigor/easy acces to stab and quickness/sustain is easy 15k healing every 20 sec when counting HT and passives/enough dmg to down a max toughness, 21k hp golem in 2 secs from 1 rotation/the fact that they got 6 sec aoe stealth on 31 sec cd(closest we get to this is mesmer elite 5 sec stealth on 90 cd. thats 18 sec of engi stealth for mes 5 lol)/easy cc on short cd/mobility and superspeed to disengage/invul for those 'oh kitten' moments/constant output of 5-6 boons when fighting/being tanky on top of all this since demo amulet is bae... i mean i could go on but im sure u get the picture by now.

> >

> > sure stacked up to other pof specs it might not seem like much but as i already said. only classes holo feels weak to right now is wellplayed warriors and necros(corrupt boons) boonbeast is just stalemate..

> > and ive been playing only holo since pof released

>

> If you've only been playing Holo, then why are you trying to drag it down? I've historically called for Holo shaves, but real nerfs need to be done in conjunction with nerfing other specs, too.

>

> That's my point, it's not out of line with the meta. If you play one-shot holo, you're irrelevant, if you play Demolishers DPS (very different from one-shot) you're outclassed DPS wise by rev, if you play bunker conversion, you bring team utility, but are a worse bunker than a scrapper.

>

> Holo isn't out of line with anything that is currently played, so I can't agree with just about anything you're saying until PoF is toned down as a whole. Even then, HoT will need to be re-addressed, too. Everything is creeped to hell past core.

>

> PS: To your pic, it's not possible to sustain 25 stacks of might on that build. Maybe get there especially with leadership, but I don't particularly love HGH. Good call-out though. That build stacks might higher than the iron-blood builds I'm used to running.

 

im not trying to drag it down, holo is stupid fun to play with the leaps and shockwaves. we got a fucking lasercannon !!1!

now i dont want it nuked to the ground. i main it after all, but as u said, shaves are needed. it did get stab cut last patch but so far i havent rly felt any different.

all ive felt is the balance patch hit other specs thus leaving me feeling like im legit playing super sayian class \o/

 

some nerfs to sustain , cd's increases, shave some of the boons duration or entirely from skills spamming them >__> looking at u vigor

stuff like that to bring it more in line.

i dont mind if i can do dmg but i dont want to be a bunker doing damage either.

imagine if weaver built for damage but still had the sustain from mender amu. thats kinda what we are looking at here

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > If a move can hit you for **all your HP**, even when you are not playing glass, without:

> >

> > having a clearly visible telegraph of at least a couple of seconds

> >

> > or

> >

> > while also having the means to HIDE the telegraph without significant windup

> >

> > The burst is too strong.

> >

> > There is no rational explanation for having a combination of buffs that can lead to you doing 27k damage to a single target in pvp in one move, especially if that move can be hidden by stealth.

> >

>

> One thing I find particularly grating is the argument "If you do this your so glassy and can get one shot back just as easily."

>

> Literally every profession can meme around on a Berserker's amulet aiming for as huge of crits as possible. Only one gets anywhere near this level of damage.

 

And, of those classes that can meme around on those amulets, the one that gets near that level of damage has precastable buffs that can make their moves unblockable and also has access to multiple stacks of stability and protection. So not only can they hit 27k while being glass, they can also likely sustain a bit of damage and get away without dying if anything goes south. So saying "you can die just as easily" is a bit of misinformation.

 

We nerfed thieves for 25k backstabs repeatedly. Don't know why the noted class gets a free pass on that front.

 

Not that any of those particular facets of the class are bad in and of themselves. The stacking of buffs has just created an issue.

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> Id much rather have the high risk play than just stalemate fights forever with tanks builds that don't even need to dodge.

 

As I mentioned before, both 27k burst and tank builds are bad for the game. Dislike of one does not immediately imply acceptance of the other. Both of those extremes lead to unhealthy combat, and we should be aiming for build design that caps damage somewhere closer to the middle.

 

Bunker meta is garbage, but there's still no rational excuse for doing *all of a target's hp in damage in one single, low cd move*, optionally from stealth, without needing to engage the enemy beforehand, all the while still having utility slots and boons that lend themselves to escape or reset if the burst doesn't land. If thieves can't do it, glassy as they are, then soulbeasts shouldn't be able to either. If the old 20k, no damage ramp-up backstab and unblockable Death's Judgment were bad for the game, then 27k potentially unblockable maul is bad for the game too.

 

We've been here before with Dragonhunter trap stackers, thieves, zerker warriors running headbutt and the like. No class in the game should get a free pass to nuke your HP without a telegraph. No class.

 

[Eurantien.4632]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> > Id much rather have the high risk play than just stalemate fights forever with tanks builds that don't even need to dodge.

>

> As I mentioned before, both 27k burst and tank builds are bad for the game. Dislike of one does not immediately imply acceptance of the other. Both of those extremes lead to unhealthy combat, and we should be aiming for build design that caps damage somewhere closer to the middle.

>

> Bunker meta is garbage, but there's still no rational excuse for doing *all of a target's hp in damage*, optionally from stealth, without needing to engage the enemy beforehand, all the while still having utility slots and boons that lend themselves to escape or reset if the burst doesn't land. If thieves can't do it, glassy as they are, then soulbeasts shouldn't be able to either. If the old 20k, no damage ramp-up backstab and unblockable Death's Judgment were bad for the game, then 27k potentially unblockable maul is bad for the game too.

>

 

Let's be clear on this burst. You can stealth using swoop and pet swap (if marksmanship) and you get about 4 - 5s of viable stealth from that. You then need to maul for dmg buff. Then you need worldly impact with sic em up, which has a pretty small range and the ranger can't move. That's the only way someone is getting 1 shot from stealth. That is really easy to avoid. And you're also probably not getting unblockable from that

 

If they aren't in stealth they could maybe maul for maul buff and try and 1 shot you that way by waiting 4s for another maul with sic em. Still won't work if you're not glassy. That's a lot of time for you to react. And they won't have unblockable.

 

Or they go marksmanship and beastmastery. Giving virtually no Condi clear besides runes. Then if they interrupt you they can one shot you with a sic em maul by proccing every trait. This is something I've been playing because there are few Condi builds in the meta. But it would have been and still would be trashed by even a condi mirage. In this case they could have unblockable. And they could already be on top of you and swoop in the field and get stealth then do the combo... but it's not like it's coming out of nowhere like from a dead eye. The ranger is already on top of you... and you already know it's there.

 

So then what's the problem? Either people are not getting one shot. Or they are getting hit by multiple skills and could react but aren't/can't. They should know the ranger is there... idk. Maybe the dmg is too high but I have hard time gutting power ranger.

 

I understand the gripes because I too felt the pain of deadeye... but at the same time... it's not equivalent. I feel like "one shot ranger" is more akin to war/rev. It's not really one shotting you but if you get hit by bulls charge/hb or just rev autos and have nothing to deal with It you are dead. + you can't even blind those guys or aegis it. With dps ranger you can blind or aegis the one hit and avoid all the dmg. (Assuming unblockable isn't up).

 

Getting one shot from nowhere due to an invis enemy sucks. But that's not happening with power ranger. It's not the same as deadeye or mantra mes. It's just like when a rev or zerk war comes at you. You should know they are there and then deal with them accordingly.

[DaShi.1368]

Just nerf holo to the same level as condi mirage

[Odik.4587]

> @"DaShi.1368" said:

> Just nerf holo to the same level as condi mirage

How you would do that ? You have 2 holo mains that assured holo need no nerfs,its fine, and then tell to other guy who main holo "WHY YOU WANT NERFS ON YOUR OWN CLASS?".Tells that everyone else need nerfs and only when everyone else is nerfed,holo could have some nerfs.

Oh dude...I'm so done with this insanely biased folks,should do the same actually

[Stand The Wall.6987]

to answer your question tho I think anything doing more then half of someones health with a +560 tough amulet is too much.

[Mbelch.9028]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > Just nerf holo to the same level as condi mirage

> How you would do that ? You have 2 holo mains that assured holo need no nerfs,its fine, and then tell to other guy who main holo "WHY YOU WANT NERFS ON YOUR OWN CLASS?".Tells that everyone else need nerfs and only when everyone else is nerfed,holo could have some nerfs.

> Oh dude...I'm so done with this insanely biased folks,should do the same actually

 

Conversing with you is frustrating, which is why I'm choosing to stop. It's not unfair to ask why a main wants their class nerfed? I've called for shaves on Holo, too, in an attempt to be unbiased. But even in the current meta, Holo struggles with an equal skill condi mirage. It also struggles against magebane warrior, and it stalemates soulbeast. I don't think offering only nerfs to Holo when three classes routinely give it a hard time/counter it is fair.

 

If you don't see it, that's fine. We play in two different tiers.

[SPESHAL.9106]

Nothing runs off new players faster than cheese builds that one shot/extreme damage upfront builds. When it comes from stealth AND cc, it's even more ridiculous that such things get out of internal testing.

 

If you REALLY want this kind of playstyle, then all professions need the same ability to spec for stealth, cc and 1-shot builds.

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"SPESHAL.9106" said:

> **Nothing runs off new players faster than cheese builds that one shot/extreme damage upfront builds. When it comes from stealth AND cc, it's even more ridiculous that such things get out of internal testing.**

>

> If you REALLY want this kind of playstyle, then all professions need the same ability to spec for stealth, cc and 1-shot builds.

 

+1

We've seen huge increase of former Gw2 players in Square Enix; Final Fantasy 14 online due to exactly this.

 

Sooner or later; all professions **will** have the same ability to spec for stealth, cc and 1-shot builds

 

(no competitive games would dare tolerate these toxic trash designs mechanics in their games)

[toxic.3648]

> @"Mbelch.9028" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > Just nerf holo to the same level as condi mirage

> > How you would do that ? You have 2 holo mains that assured holo need no nerfs,its fine, and then tell to other guy who main holo "WHY YOU WANT NERFS ON YOUR OWN CLASS?".Tells that everyone else need nerfs and only when everyone else is nerfed,holo could have some nerfs.

> > Oh dude...I'm so done with this insanely biased folks,should do the same actually

>

> Conversing with you is frustrating, which is why I'm choosing to stop. It's not unfair to ask why a main wants their class nerfed? I've called for shaves on Holo, too, in an attempt to be unbiased. But even in the current meta, Holo struggles with an equal skill condi mirage. It also struggles against magebane warrior, and it stalemates soulbeast. I don't think offering only nerfs to Holo when three classes routinely give it a hard time/counter it is fair.

>

> If you don't see it, that's fine. We play in two different tiers.

 

i always thought good balance meant that every class has an equal chance to kill another class, granted this is very hard to pull off.

so holo is not overperforming when the classes that historically always have countered it still does altho at a significant less degree..

and its fine when it stalemtaes another overperforming spec that also should have been nerfed long ago ie. boonbeast.

that just means they are both busted in current meta and need rightfully nerfs.

 

also odik plays at higher divisions than i do. plat3 - leggy . if u guys are playing at different tiers that means ure at what? gold?

[kin korn karn.9023]

Instagib me once, shame on you. Instagib me twice, shame on me.

[Mbelch.9028]

> @"toxic.3648" said:

> > @"Mbelch.9028" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"DaShi.1368" said:

> > > > Just nerf holo to the same level as condi mirage

> > > How you would do that ? You have 2 holo mains that assured holo need no nerfs,its fine, and then tell to other guy who main holo "WHY YOU WANT NERFS ON YOUR OWN CLASS?".Tells that everyone else need nerfs and only when everyone else is nerfed,holo could have some nerfs.

> > > Oh dude...I'm so done with this insanely biased folks,should do the same actually

> >

> > Conversing with you is frustrating, which is why I'm choosing to stop. It's not unfair to ask why a main wants their class nerfed? I've called for shaves on Holo, too, in an attempt to be unbiased. But even in the current meta, Holo struggles with an equal skill condi mirage. It also struggles against magebane warrior, and it stalemates soulbeast. I don't think offering only nerfs to Holo when three classes routinely give it a hard time/counter it is fair.

> >

> > If you don't see it, that's fine. We play in two different tiers.

>

> i always thought good balance meant that every class has an equal chance to kill another class, granted this is very hard to pull off.

> so holo is not overperforming when the classes that historically always have countered it still does altho at a significant less degree..

> and its fine when it stalemtaes another overperforming spec that also should have been nerfed long ago ie. boonbeast.

> that just means they are both busted in current meta and need rightfully nerfs.

>

> also odik plays at higher divisions than i do. plat3 - leggy . if u guys are playing at different tiers that means ure at what? gold?

 

Depends on the season. Some seasons I don't play, some I do. S5 I was ~1900 rating, and that was the last season I tried hard. I'm routinely 1700 for placements and don't play too much after in ranked.

 

Never been a goldie, but cute response.

[zoopop.5630]

> @"Mbelch.9028" said:

> > @"toxic.3648" said:

> > > @"Mbelch.9028" said:

> > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > ...Snips...

> > >

> > >

> > > I'm confused about your whole back and forth with @"Vagrant.7206" as the following set of statements are as close to "facts" as you get:

> > > * It's not possible for the META builds to stack 25 stacks of might unless they get very lucky on a conversion build, and it's plain old not possible on its own in a rifle build.

> > > * There's no such thing as a one-shot Holosmith build that is viable in any realm of high-level PvP.

> > > * When debating what is or isn't "a one shot build" it's hard to lump engineer in with that. No one skill has one-shot people on engi since 100-nades. The build I think you dislike is a spike build that utilizes a lot of CC plus a lot of little hits to kill you quickly. But it doesn't always work against skilled players and it doesn't work in games.

> > > * Holo dishes out great damage and can still survive a licking, which some certainly would see as a problem. But folks always see problems. Too much damage? That's a problem. Too little damage? That's a problem. Too many condis? That's a problem. Too many bruisers? That's a problem. There's no panacea for balance, and Holo sits pretty well in the meta right now. It has counters and it counters certain classes. Seems fine to me right now.

> >

> > 

> >

> > it is possible to get 25 stacks of might on elixir build. holo can ez self stack 12-15 stacks of might. now imagine getting some dmg and hidden flask b pops with another 7 might. now ure at 19-22 stacks. convert a torment and we're at 22-25 stacks . mind u this is easely done without even trying on "META ELIXIR SD BUILD"

> >

> > so holo downing the heavy golem in 2 sec from a combo that can be done every 15 sec is not counted as 1 shot? i mean it uses 5-6 skills to pull this off but when u look at power mesmer using 5-6 skills pulling off the same thing in 1 sec thats considered 1 shot while holo is considered spike?

> > in that case id rather fight a power mes any day since u know theres no dmg comming after his burst while holo is gonna keep nuking u after burst rotation is done

> >

> > also i play in plat 2-3 in EU when i can be asked to bother with ranked . this 1 spike burst is happening on meta elixir build in those divisions. why spec for offmeta 1 sec 1 shot build when normal meta build does the same thing in 2 secs ??

> >

> > the problem with holo is it got too much of everything. /perma swiftness and vigor/easy acces to stab and quickness/sustain is easy 15k healing every 20 sec when counting HT and passives/enough dmg to down a max toughness, 21k hp golem in 2 secs from 1 rotation/the fact that they got 6 sec aoe stealth on 31 sec cd(closest we get to this is mesmer elite 5 sec stealth on 90 cd. thats 18 sec of engi stealth for mes 5 lol)/easy cc on short cd/mobility and superspeed to disengage/invul for those 'oh kitten' moments/constant output of 5-6 boons when fighting/being tanky on top of all this since demo amulet is bae... i mean i could go on but im sure u get the picture by now.

> >

> > sure stacked up to other pof specs it might not seem like much but as i already said. only classes holo feels weak to right now is wellplayed warriors and necros(corrupt boons) boonbeast is just stalemate..

> > and ive been playing only holo since pof released

>

> If you've only been playing Holo, then why are you trying to drag it down? I've historically called for Holo shaves, but real nerfs need to be done in conjunction with nerfing other specs, too.

>

> That's my point, it's not out of line with the meta. If you play one-shot holo, you're irrelevant, if you play Demolishers DPS (very different from one-shot) you're outclassed DPS wise by rev, if you play bunker conversion, you bring team utility, but are a worse bunker than a scrapper.

>

> Holo isn't out of line with anything that is currently played, so I can't agree with just about anything you're saying until PoF is toned down as a whole. Even then, HoT will need to be re-addressed, too. Everything is creeped to hell past core.

>

> PS: To your pic, it's not possible to sustain 25 stacks of might on that build. Maybe get there especially with leadership, but I don't particularly love HGH. Good call-out though. That build stacks might higher than the iron-blood builds I'm used to running.

 

someone with actual logic and common sense.

 

I'll like to see these Holo Build with 25 might stack In a video if possible showing everything they are running and how exactly they are getting "25" might stack. Not word by mouth and paper calculation half assed by eu players. Someone earlier said you can Use Exilir S for +2 might stacks without also saying you'll be useless to dps for 3 seconds by then you'll lose some of your stacks.....

 

@"toxic.3648" Make a video if you can so i can see what exactly im doing wrong cause most amount of might stack im able to stack was 15 and that's with all my offensive elixirs being used + CornaBurst. I just need to see these viable 25 stack might builds on holo that are possibly being played all around !

[zoopop.5630]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > You contradicting himself in your own post about might stacks . Telling me a big no , exaggerations, and say yes to a Toxic guy...

> > > > https://imgur.com/a/Llvgbt5

> > >

> > > What you said was not accurate. A holosmith by itself cannot generate 25 might without messing up its build in a substantial way.

> > >

> > > However, what @"toxic.3648" said **is** accurate, that if an enemy class outputs a bunch of agony or weakness, it can be converted into might with a conversion prot build that has [purity of purpose](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purity_of_Purpose "purity of purpose"). This is **ONLY** when an enemy is planting these conditions on the conversion holo, and cannot consistently be done with any other enemy.

> > >

> > > So yeah, I am going to agree with Toxic -- he's right. However, you're complaining about things that you don't seem to understand, and couldn't explain to me in a way I could understand.

> >

> > What i dont understand ? Toxic explained what I complaint about :

> > >>the fact that holo can be tanky with demo amulet. have 10k+ healing every 20 sec + the passive heals from boonstacking, regen and heat therapy holo passive sustain is broken for what it does when u see the dmg it puts out without having to sacrifice dmg for healing.

> > >>not to mention a single cc photon forge burst rotation with static discharge is enough to kill mostly anything not running a real bunker build

> > >Valid complaints. I have nothing to argue against that.

> > You literally confirmed that himself that you CAN, YOU DID and you WERE oneshotted in that manner while arent speccing for it even

>

> You are misreading what both he and I said. :smile: What he described is not a oneshot build, but it is a spike build.

>

> > >Perhaps, but the setup is by no means a one-shot. I've had it happen to me too (and I've done it to others), but I couldn't describe it as a oneshot build. That was my complaint with @Odik.4587, because he's treating what's closer to backstab from thief to a oneshot build.

> > So far as Toxic said you dont need purity of purpose to reach 20+ mights

> > May bey you dont understand yourself about your own class/traits but when you leave forge you convert conditions into boons . I didnt fought conversion holo . They all had meta rifle photon wall,quickness elixir and invul elixir.

>

> So let me lay it out for you:

>

> * Corona Burst = 5 might

> * HGH + Elixir U = 2 might

> * HGH + Toss Elixir U = 2 might

> * HGH + Elixir S = 2 might

> * HGH + Toss Elixir S = 2 Might

> * Convert a stack of Agony from exiting PF = 3 Might

> * Convert a stack of Weakness from Exiting PF = 3 Might

>

> So even under a "perfect" scenario where an engineer uses all his elixirs and exits photon forge simultaneously while only converting weakness and agony (a rather ridiculous scenario), he can only reach 19 might without team buffs. Now if you include gear or extra agony and weakness applied, it *is* possible to reach 25 might under this ideal scenario. Sigil of Battle can add [5 might for weapon swapping](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil_of_Battle_(disambiguation) "5 might for weapon swapping"). And [Rune of Leadership](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rune_of_Leadership_(PvP) "Rune of Leadership") can convert another 3 conditions to boons -- but this requires the use of an elite to pull.

>

> So in other words, the hypothetical scenario looks something like this:

>

> * Engineer uses Corona Burst, busts out the 4 elixir skills (for some reason) -- +13 might

> * Enemy applies weakness + agony -> Engineer exits photon forge and Sigil of Battle procs -- +11 might **(Most don't run sigil of battle)**

> * Enemy reapplies weakness + agony -> Engineer hits Elite skill and Rune of Leadership (6) procs. -- +6 might -> capped might

> * OR Enemy reapplies weakness + agony and [Lesser Elixir C procs (due to damage)](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Elixir_C "Lesser Elixir C procs (due to damage)") -- +6 might -> capped might

>

> This scenario is so contrived that it's worthless to even point out, but I know you'll latch onto it anyway as proof. :smile:

>

> -----

>

> Whereas if we look at a conversion build, it's really easy to see what's happening that you're complaining about:

>

> * HLA is up and Engi is converting conditions (1 per second) plus whatever other skills conversion holo is using to convert

> * Condi mirage is constantly reapplying agony+weakness, instead of waiting for HLA to go away.

> * Engineer stacks 25 might in a very short period thanks to [Purity of Purpose](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purity_of_Purpose "Purity of Purpose").

>

> Conversion holo is a build explicitly designed to counter condition builds -- it's so good at it that I have to talk about it [in my other thread about condis.](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72346/a-discussion-about-condition-damage-and-cleansing-why-is-it-always-broken/p1 "in my other thread about condis.") So you are complaining about a build designed be the direct counter for what's meta for ~~mesmer~~ mirage.

>

> > @"toxic.3648" said:

> > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > You contradicting himself in your own post about might stacks . Telling me a big no , exaggerations, and say yes to a Toxic guy...

> > > > https://imgur.com/a/Llvgbt5

> > >

> > > What you said was not accurate. A holosmith by itself cannot generate 25 might without messing up its build in a substantial way.

> > >

> > > However, what @"toxic.3648" said **is** accurate, that if an enemy class outputs a bunch of agony or weakness, it can be converted into might with a conversion prot build that has [purity of purpose](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purity_of_Purpose "purity of purpose"). This is **ONLY** when an enemy is planting these conditions on the conversion holo, and cannot consistently be done with any other enemy. In other words, if you fight a conversion holo without placing agony or weakness on them, you will not see 25 might, and will usually only see between 5-10 might.

> > >

> > > So yeah, I am going to agree with Toxic -- he's right. However, you're complaining about things that you don't seem to understand, and couldn't explain to me in a way I could understand.

> >

> > also seems to me u misunderstand what odik was trying to tell u when it came to holo being unfun since its class with zerk dmg, bunker sustain and cc + boonspam . its literally the same reasons he said why its unfun as i did .. ehm

>

> Well, if that's his main point, he has a weird way of arguing it. In which case... yeah, I agree it's unfun from that perspective. It's powercreeped to hell and back. But as far as other elite specs from PoF go, I still can't say it stands out in particular - it's on par with the other specs.

>

> So again, I go back to this point -- in absolute terms, yes, it's OP. But in relative terms, it's not.

 

Btw You can't have HgH and purity of purpose together so how is someone converting condi into boons let alone might stacks?

[toxic.3648]

@"zoopop.5630" if u read my post with the picture longer up u will find im talking about holo being in combat and getting pressured. not selfstacking out of combat

 

 

[Mbelch.9028]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> (Get over this pointless discussion or if you want to continue benis measures PM me)

 

...

 

> @"Mbelch.9028" said:

> Conversing with you is frustrating, which is why I'm choosing to stop.

 

 

[Koen.1327]

> @"zoopop.5630" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > You contradicting himself in your own post about might stacks . Telling me a big no , exaggerations, and say yes to a Toxic guy...

> > > > > https://imgur.com/a/Llvgbt5

> > > >

> > > > What you said was not accurate. A holosmith by itself cannot generate 25 might without messing up its build in a substantial way.

> > > >

> > > > However, what @"toxic.3648" said **is** accurate, that if an enemy class outputs a bunch of agony or weakness, it can be converted into might with a conversion prot build that has [purity of purpose](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purity_of_Purpose "purity of purpose"). This is **ONLY** when an enemy is planting these conditions on the conversion holo, and cannot consistently be done with any other enemy.

> > > >

> > > > So yeah, I am going to agree with Toxic -- he's right. However, you're complaining about things that you don't seem to understand, and couldn't explain to me in a way I could understand.

> > >

> > > What i dont understand ? Toxic explained what I complaint about :

> > > >>the fact that holo can be tanky with demo amulet. have 10k+ healing every 20 sec + the passive heals from boonstacking, regen and heat therapy holo passive sustain is broken for what it does when u see the dmg it puts out without having to sacrifice dmg for healing.

> > > >>not to mention a single cc photon forge burst rotation with static discharge is enough to kill mostly anything not running a real bunker build

> > > >Valid complaints. I have nothing to argue against that.

> > > You literally confirmed that himself that you CAN, YOU DID and you WERE oneshotted in that manner while arent speccing for it even

> >

> > You are misreading what both he and I said. :smile: What he described is not a oneshot build, but it is a spike build.

> >

> > > >Perhaps, but the setup is by no means a one-shot. I've had it happen to me too (and I've done it to others), but I couldn't describe it as a oneshot build. That was my complaint with @Odik.4587, because he's treating what's closer to backstab from thief to a oneshot build.

> > > So far as Toxic said you dont need purity of purpose to reach 20+ mights

> > > May bey you dont understand yourself about your own class/traits but when you leave forge you convert conditions into boons . I didnt fought conversion holo . They all had meta rifle photon wall,quickness elixir and invul elixir.

> >

> > So let me lay it out for you:

> >

> > * Corona Burst = 5 might

> > * HGH + Elixir U = 2 might

> > * HGH + Toss Elixir U = 2 might

> > * HGH + Elixir S = 2 might

> > * HGH + Toss Elixir S = 2 Might

> > * Convert a stack of Agony from exiting PF = 3 Might

> > * Convert a stack of Weakness from Exiting PF = 3 Might

> >

> > So even under a "perfect" scenario where an engineer uses all his elixirs and exits photon forge simultaneously while only converting weakness and agony (a rather ridiculous scenario), he can only reach 19 might without team buffs. Now if you include gear or extra agony and weakness applied, it *is* possible to reach 25 might under this ideal scenario. Sigil of Battle can add [5 might for weapon swapping](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil_of_Battle_(disambiguation) "5 might for weapon swapping"). And [Rune of Leadership](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rune_of_Leadership_(PvP) "Rune of Leadership") can convert another 3 conditions to boons -- but this requires the use of an elite to pull.

> >

> > So in other words, the hypothetical scenario looks something like this:

> >

> > * Engineer uses Corona Burst, busts out the 4 elixir skills (for some reason) -- +13 might

> > * Enemy applies weakness + agony -> Engineer exits photon forge and Sigil of Battle procs -- +11 might **(Most don't run sigil of battle)**

> > * Enemy reapplies weakness + agony -> Engineer hits Elite skill and Rune of Leadership (6) procs. -- +6 might -> capped might

> > * OR Enemy reapplies weakness + agony and [Lesser Elixir C procs (due to damage)](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Elixir_C "Lesser Elixir C procs (due to damage)") -- +6 might -> capped might

> >

> > This scenario is so contrived that it's worthless to even point out, but I know you'll latch onto it anyway as proof. :smile:

> >

> > -----

> >

> > Whereas if we look at a conversion build, it's really easy to see what's happening that you're complaining about:

> >

> > * HLA is up and Engi is converting conditions (1 per second) plus whatever other skills conversion holo is using to convert

> > * Condi mirage is constantly reapplying agony+weakness, instead of waiting for HLA to go away.

> > * Engineer stacks 25 might in a very short period thanks to [Purity of Purpose](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purity_of_Purpose "Purity of Purpose").

> >

> > Conversion holo is a build explicitly designed to counter condition builds -- it's so good at it that I have to talk about it [in my other thread about condis.](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72346/a-discussion-about-condition-damage-and-cleansing-why-is-it-always-broken/p1 "in my other thread about condis.") So you are complaining about a build designed be the direct counter for what's meta for ~~mesmer~~ mirage.

> >

> > > @"toxic.3648" said:

> > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > You contradicting himself in your own post about might stacks . Telling me a big no , exaggerations, and say yes to a Toxic guy...

> > > > > https://imgur.com/a/Llvgbt5

> > > >

> > > > What you said was not accurate. A holosmith by itself cannot generate 25 might without messing up its build in a substantial way.

> > > >

> > > > However, what @"toxic.3648" said **is** accurate, that if an enemy class outputs a bunch of agony or weakness, it can be converted into might with a conversion prot build that has [purity of purpose](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purity_of_Purpose "purity of purpose"). This is **ONLY** when an enemy is planting these conditions on the conversion holo, and cannot consistently be done with any other enemy. In other words, if you fight a conversion holo without placing agony or weakness on them, you will not see 25 might, and will usually only see between 5-10 might.

> > > >

> > > > So yeah, I am going to agree with Toxic -- he's right. However, you're complaining about things that you don't seem to understand, and couldn't explain to me in a way I could understand.

> > >

> > > also seems to me u misunderstand what odik was trying to tell u when it came to holo being unfun since its class with zerk dmg, bunker sustain and cc + boonspam . its literally the same reasons he said why its unfun as i did .. ehm

> >

> > Well, if that's his main point, he has a weird way of arguing it. In which case... yeah, I agree it's unfun from that perspective. It's powercreeped to hell and back. But as far as other elite specs from PoF go, I still can't say it stands out in particular - it's on par with the other specs.

> >

> > So again, I go back to this point -- in absolute terms, yes, it's OP. But in relative terms, it's not.

>

> Btw You can't have HgH and purity of purpose together so how is someone converting condi into boons let alone might stacks?

 

you exit holo mode, converting torment and weakness into 6 stacks of might, throw s, u, pop elixir u and x for uber stealth rampage with quickness and superspeed. You should already have 12 stacks of might from corono and lesser b making this a 25 might stack.

 

now conversing both torment and weakness at the same doesn't happen all the time but you might consider conversing if you have weakness, in that case the above rotation, which you can pop every 45-60 seconds, have easy 20+ might stacks (under condi pressure it's for sure that you convert both weakness and torment with exit holo mode and leadership runes).