Will Black Lion Chests be forbidden in the USA?

[Daishi.6027]

I do hope this passes, but not for the sake of GW2 lootboxes. With GW2, statuettes make it more or less fair even though you have to wait.

 

Simply, I want an item/product/service at a set price point. I don’t care if it’s RNG up to that price point, so I can then decide if whatever the product I want; is worth the ultimate set value.

 

Maybe I get it earlier, maybe I get other goodies trying to get it, and such a thing can build good customer satisfaction. At worst I’m unlucky and pay the total amount, or roll a bunch of times and I select what I want.

 

What I don’t want is a bottomless gambling well that says “if you reallly want this, maybe your next roll will be it!”. That is the gamblers fallacy and is predatory, and simply saying “well then just don’t go for the product you want” is never how business should be conducted outside of a casino, and you are only betting money for money.

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > > I think sooner or later, they will tag a 21 years old on loot boxes. Games should stay away from gambling and just sell the cosmetics directly with no RNG.

> > >

> > > Sadly If they approve what you're saying, it could lead to the elimination of all rng in all games, thus eliminating rng drops from mobs and thus ruining the enjoyment of finding treasure and the enjoyment of the game itself. Technically everything in the game is chance, and time spent rolling on those chances of getting good treasure or loot. Since Time is money, elimination of all rng is essentially the argument you're making.

> >

> > Let’s not get bananas shall we? No reason for this kitten “oh no they well destroy the game.” Clearly this is about micro transactions, specifically randomized loot boxes purchasable with either real money or in game currency directly purchasable with money.

> >

> > The game shop will be much better if loot boxes were removed.

>

> this will destroy a ton of games, not just GW2, I don't understand why anyone wants this. Why don't parents just watch their children and the problem is solved?

 

All I will say is that if the games are designed to be reliant on RNGesus, then the ones who destroyed it are the developers/publishers because they designed it without actual plans for long term revenue outside of RNGesus.

 

I do agree with parents keeping watch on their kids though. If I was allowed to slap kids over the phone for trying to buy things without their parents permission (worked customer service before) then I would do so lel.

[Naxos.2503]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > > I think sooner or later, they will tag a 21 years old on loot boxes. Games should stay away from gambling and just sell the cosmetics directly with no RNG.

> > >

> > > Sadly If they approve what you're saying, it could lead to the elimination of all rng in all games, thus eliminating rng drops from mobs and thus ruining the enjoyment of finding treasure and the enjoyment of the game itself. Technically everything in the game is chance, and time spent rolling on those chances of getting good treasure or loot. Since Time is money, elimination of all rng is essentially the argument you're making.

> >

> > Let’s not get bananas shall we? No reason for this kitten “oh no they well destroy the game.” Clearly this is about micro transactions, specifically randomized loot boxes purchasable with either real money or in game currency directly purchasable with money.

> >

> > The game shop will be much better if loot boxes were removed.

>

> this will destroy a ton of games, not just GW2, I don't understand why anyone wants this. Why don't parents just watch their children and the problem is solved?

 

Loot boxes should not be the basis of a game's Economy, period.

 

You're paying for the right to a chance of having Something you want, with obscure chances to get what you want, often without reliable way to tell the mathematical percentile of that chance. It is purposefully engineered to be enticing, without giving you realistic outcomes. It preys on weak and gullible people.

 

You may have self control, some people do not, and have actual conditions that are exploited by this. That's called compulsion. It's the ugly side of gambling. It can be either acquired (by indulging in it Young) or through psychological issues (as a coping mechanism). Neither is -good-. Everything the black lion chest contain can be priced and sold by unit : the gem trade post has already put a price on individual : Mount skin, Weapon Skin, Armor Skin, Utility item. The black lion chest can be dismantled and all items be sold as a unit for a -fixed- price in gem. Obviously more expensive, but it removes the element of chance.

 

What is the pitfall ? It hinders key Farmers if it is completely removed. How do you address it ? Simply remove keys and chest from the trade post, leave the keys and chest as random drops. And like that, Guild wars 2 is exempt from the bill, with minimal incidence. Black lion keys will have to have their drop rate increased, in order for the chests to be still relevant Under that system, but the bill can no longer affect them, seeing as neither the key nor the chest are sold for money by the company, they Simply become an element of normal gameplay.

[Klipso.8653]

They already changed the chests, that's why we have the statuettes. Technically they aren't gambling if they give you that guaranteed thing.

[Yamazuki.6073]

If the goal of this is protecting children, then expect nothing; because as it says at the bottom, there already are ways for parents to protect children from excessive spending. For children to buy loot boxes, they are generally using their parent's money, especially now a days with most low wage jobs being occupied by single parents rather than even teens in high school. Even if the child somehow was able to spend a grand in a weekend, the parent will generally always get their money returned anyways, and the account associated with the child will be blocked from using any method of payment using credit; assuming the account isn't even outright banned for fraud.

 

> @"otto.5684" said:

> The game shop will be much better if loot boxes were removed.

 

People complain even when the items are sold directly, as it's "too expensive". This happened when they tried raising the cost of games beyond 60$ to go with how the cost of everything else had gone up, people got upset. We live in a world where paying 80$ for a game is a big no no, but apparently spending 60$ for part of a game and spending another 60-120$+ is acceptable. This extends to micro transactions. Account wide item for 30$? outrage. Spending 100$+ on the same item for a character on RNG? Acceptable.

 

There are publishers that tried to sell things outside of loot boxes, but the fact remains that on these games more people deliberately **chose** to buy the loot boxes over the guaranteed option. People are so obsessed with "saving" all the time, to the point they stupidly always spend more. Just look at how Black Friday and other similar holidays work, high spending in an attempt to save, when most things bought are at the original price, and sometimes slightly higher, or those fake sales.

 

This is before taking into account the whole loot box situation is blown out of proportion, people weren't really even complaining about loot boxes, but games designed in ways that forced spending money (heavily pay to win), which these games don't even need loot boxes to do. Just look at some older KR MMORPGs that didn't have much loot boxes, but were heavily pay to win. RNG game mechanics have also been monetized, and these aren't loot boxes, but is still monetized RNG that are worse than loot boxes (yes, there are worse things than loot boxes).

[otto.5684]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > > I think sooner or later, they will tag a 21 years old on loot boxes. Games should stay away from gambling and just sell the cosmetics directly with no RNG.

> > >

> > > Sadly If they approve what you're saying, it could lead to the elimination of all rng in all games, thus eliminating rng drops from mobs and thus ruining the enjoyment of finding treasure and the enjoyment of the game itself. Technically everything in the game is chance, and time spent rolling on those chances of getting good treasure or loot. Since Time is money, elimination of all rng is essentially the argument you're making.

> >

> > Let’s not get bananas shall we? No reason for this kitten “oh no they well destroy the game.” Clearly this is about micro transactions, specifically randomized loot boxes purchasable with either real money or in game currency directly purchasable with money.

> >

> > The game shop will be much better if loot boxes were removed.

>

> this will destroy a ton of games, not just GW2, I don't understand why anyone wants this. Why don't parents just watch their children and the problem is solved?

 

If games are designed to be gambling outlets, to manipulate people to spend more money, then by all means, they can be destroyed.

 

If the game is to have gambling, gambling rules should apply.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > why? I enjoy paid RNG. If you don't like it, why don't you just not buy it?

>

> I'm not talking about me but on behalf of the many teens, adolescents and even adults who lose hundreds or thousands of dollars getting addicted to gambling in games (and on related websites). Gambling can be highly addictive and therefore should not be encouraged, but that's just my opinion.

 

So, let's ban drugs while we're at it. World-wide. Because there are people in many countries who become addicted to them. Oh, and let's ban TV, too, because people become addicted to that as well. I'm sure we could go on and on with this......

[MoriMoriMori.5349]

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > @"VDAC.2137" said:

> > > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > why? I enjoy paid RNG. If you don't like it, why don't you just not buy it?

> > >

> > > I'm not talking about me but on behalf of the many teens, adolescents and even adults who lose hundreds or thousands of dollars getting addicted to gambling in games (and on related websites). Gambling can be highly addictive and therefore should not be encouraged, but that's just my opinion.

> >

> > Lots of things can be addictive — alcohol, food, sex... Let’s just ban all of them, right?

>

> Nice try. Two completely different pairs of shoes, at least when it comes to the two former age groups. Or are you trying to say that you find it okay to deliberately push a minor toward drugs, alcohol and excessive sex? Or that you would feed them unhealthily on purpose as a parent? A person's frontal lobe isn't fully developed until circa the age of 25, therefore, they are more prone to getting addicted, especially when it's all wrapped up as a "cool thing you just _must_ have" in their favorite game (you know how easily seduced kids are by "shinies" ;) ). I hope you can agree with me to some degree here.

 

Now please define "deliberately push". What exactly deliberately pushes anybody to gamble in GW2? It's not a bit more deliberate than a girl next door wearing short skirt and trying to pick up something from the ground each time you pass by her. Or that beer on shelves of any Whole Foods out there. Or, for that matter, any casino ad. It's just there, that's where "deliberate" part ends. You are not constantly attacked by ads trying to convince you how awesome BLCs are. Most of the time you need to go all the way to gemshop to see it mentioned. You don't need anything in BLC to play game or have upper hand in competitive mode. Most of the items can be bought from gemshop normally (not always, but with time they go on sell).

 

You'll see much more LGBT propaganda than pushing to BLCs in GW2 these days, even in schools - should we treat it like "deliberately push" children to assume another gender role and ban it as well? Sounds like a real societal issue to me, would somebody on senat push a bill for this, please?

 

 

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > > > I think sooner or later, they will tag a 21 years old on loot boxes. Games should stay away from gambling and just sell the cosmetics directly with no RNG.

> > > >

> > > > Sadly If they approve what you're saying, it could lead to the elimination of all rng in all games, thus eliminating rng drops from mobs and thus ruining the enjoyment of finding treasure and the enjoyment of the game itself. Technically everything in the game is chance, and time spent rolling on those chances of getting good treasure or loot. Since Time is money, elimination of all rng is essentially the argument you're making.

> > >

> > > Let’s not get bananas shall we? No reason for this kitten “oh no they well destroy the game.” Clearly this is about micro transactions, specifically randomized loot boxes purchasable with either real money or in game currency directly purchasable with money.

> > >

> > > The game shop will be much better if loot boxes were removed.

> >

> > this will destroy a ton of games, not just GW2, I don't understand why anyone wants this. Why don't parents just watch their children and the problem is solved?

>

> If games are designed to be gambling outlets, to manipulate people to spend more money, then by all means, they can be destroyed.

>

> If the game is to have gambling, gambling rules should apply.

 

everything is gambling, even buying food. You might not like it, it might not be as you expected, you might be allergic to it. Therefore maybe we should just ban all the foods that don't sit well with you personally. Thats the same thing you're saying.

[Trise.2865]

What will happen? If this proposal/bill passes into law, ANet will adjust their shop in accordance and that will be that. The truly exploitative games, they know who they are, will choke and die... and nothing of value will be lost. In fact, I may have cake.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > @"VDAC.2137" said:

> > > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > why? I enjoy paid RNG. If you don't like it, why don't you just not buy it?

> > >

> > > I'm not talking about me but on behalf of the many teens, adolescents and even adults who lose hundreds or thousands of dollars getting addicted to gambling in games (and on related websites). Gambling can be highly addictive and therefore should not be encouraged, but that's just my opinion.

> >

> > Lots of things can be addictive — alcohol, food, sex... Let’s just ban all of them, right?

>

> Nice try. Two completely different pairs of shoes, at least when it comes to the two former age groups. Or are you trying to say that you find it okay to deliberately push a minor toward drugs, alcohol and excessive sex? Or that you would feed them unhealthily on purpose as a parent? A person's frontal lobe isn't fully developed until circa the age of 25, therefore, they are more prone to getting addicted, especially when it's all wrapped up as a "cool thing you just _must_ have" in their favorite game (you know how easily seduced kids are by "shinies" ;) ). I hope you can agree with me to some degree here.

 

where are the parents to stop the children from engaging in this behavior? Why don't they watch them? I mean we have alcohol and other things that children cant partake in, but are you saying we need to outright ban them because 1) some kids might be enticed by them and 2) parents REFUSE to supervise their children. We don't let children join the military and yet they make tons of commercials showing how awesome the military is in an attempt to make minors, join up even before they reach the legal age? Perhaps we should just outright ban the military because it makes commercials enticing minors to join? The military is easily as dangerous as any potential gambling addiction.

[Haishao.6851]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > > I think sooner or later, they will tag a 21 years old on loot boxes. Games should stay away from gambling and just sell the cosmetics directly with no RNG.

> > >

> > > Sadly If they approve what you're saying, it could lead to the elimination of all rng in all games, thus eliminating rng drops from mobs and thus ruining the enjoyment of finding treasure and the enjoyment of the game itself. Technically everything in the game is chance, and time spent rolling on those chances of getting good treasure or loot. Since Time is money, elimination of all rng is essentially the argument you're making.

> >

> > Let’s not get bananas shall we? No reason for this kitten “oh no they well destroy the game.” Clearly this is about micro transactions, specifically randomized loot boxes purchasable with either real money or in game currency directly purchasable with money.

> >

> > The game shop will be much better if loot boxes were removed.

>

> this will destroy a ton of games, not just GW2, I don't understand why anyone wants this. Why don't parents just watch their children and the problem is solved?

 

If some games are so extremely bad that removing lootboxes make them bankrupt, then too bad for them. They should have made a good game instead.

Good games ever needed lootboxes to make money.

 

What does parents have to do with it? People hate them. The games being targeted at children is just the cherry on top of it all. It's crap no one ever asked for and majority hate, and on top of it, most of it is targeted directly at children.

Why don't you just go gamble in a casino and the problem is solved?

 

[Ashen.2907]

> @"VDAC.2137" said:

> > @"Erasculio.2914" said:

> > [A U.S. Senator has introduced a bill to ban loot boxes and "pay-to-win" microtransactions](https://kotaku.com/u-s-senator-introduces-bill-to-ban-loot-boxes-and-pay-1834612226).

> >

> > While the "pay-to-win" ban probably wouldn't have any impact on Guild Wars 2, the Black Lion Chests are loot boxes, so they would be forbidden if this bill passes.

> >

> > What do you think will happen?

>

> Ugh, I really hope this bill is shot down, not as much for the BLCs as for the principle of it. I am sick of the encroachment of the nanny state, always infringing on our rights while hiding behind “it’s for the children” or whatever. :angry:

 

This right here. So well said.

[Trise.2865]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > why? I enjoy paid RNG. If you don't like it, why don't you just not buy it?

> >

> > I'm not talking about me but on behalf of the many teens, adolescents and even adults who lose hundreds or thousands of dollars getting addicted to gambling in games (and on related websites). Gambling can be highly addictive and therefore should not be encouraged, but that's just my opinion.

>

> So, let's ban drugs while we're at it. World-wide. Because there are people in many countries who become addicted to them. Oh, and let's ban TV, too, because people become addicted to that as well. I'm sure we could go on and on with this......

 

Ah, good old "slippery slope"...

 

Here's the thing: drugs, alcohol, and even television programming are _already **highly**_ regulated in the US and other countries. Video games and digital media, by comparison, are not. If a minor even touches a casino's gaming floor, they and anyone with them could be arrested, and heavy fines may be levied against the business. If any adult buys alcohol and gives it to a minor? they can be sent to jail, and the bar or store can be fined or even closed. If a TV broadcast doesn't take responsibility for its content? with Children's programming in particular required to carry messages against vegetative watching? That entire channel can be taken down, with heavy fines against the channel's network, if any. Heck, you need a special permit and an ID just to buy cold medicine anymore. But nobody bats an eye if kids get M-rated games, or games labeled with gambling, lootboxes, alcohol use, etc., etc..

[SlateSloan.3654]

good attempt to finally get rid of that rip offs.

 

now we need another bill + review of cost to produce item skins and sales prices to regulate these rip offs and we are on the way to normality in gaming business again.

 

that ye all be rooted and grounded with love.

[Ultramex.1506]

The only thing i want gone from GW2 is mount skin slot machine, i'm not gonna pay 400 gems for a chance of getting that 1 raptor skin out of 10, i'll happily pay 1200 for a guaranteed 100% chance of getting it because what if i'm unlucky and spin 5 times to finally got that skin? I've wasted 2000 gems just for 1 skin! Then again i have never bothered with mount skin lower than 2K gems because most of them are just pattern change or more dye channels(So you want to apply more than 1 color to your mount? 400 gems please! Specific skin not guaranteed!) .

[yann.1946]

What I am interested in is a study that proves that gambling addictions have increased in the gaming population since lootboxes became mainstream. I personally haven't seen one yet so it would be quite interesting.

[Erasculio.2914]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> What I am interested in is a study that proves that gambling addictions have increased in the gaming population since lootboxes became mainstream.

 

So, [something like this?](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0213194)

 

 

[yann.1946]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > > > I think sooner or later, they will tag a 21 years old on loot boxes. Games should stay away from gambling and just sell the cosmetics directly with no RNG.

> > > >

> > > > Sadly If they approve what you're saying, it could lead to the elimination of all rng in all games, thus eliminating rng drops from mobs and thus ruining the enjoyment of finding treasure and the enjoyment of the game itself. Technically everything in the game is chance, and time spent rolling on those chances of getting good treasure or loot. Since Time is money, elimination of all rng is essentially the argument you're making.

> > >

> > > Let’s not get bananas shall we? No reason for this kitten “oh no they well destroy the game.” Clearly this is about micro transactions, specifically randomized loot boxes purchasable with either real money or in game currency directly purchasable with money.

> > >

> > > The game shop will be much better if loot boxes were removed.

> >

> > this will destroy a ton of games, not just GW2, I don't understand why anyone wants this. Why don't parents just watch their children and the problem is solved?

>

> If games are designed to be gambling outlets, to manipulate people to spend more money, then by all means, they can be destroyed.

>

> If the game is to have gambling, gambling rules should apply.

 

It's not only about lootboxes tho. Take the two in game currency based gambling systems in the game.

- ectogambling

- lootbags.

 

I think people who are against gambling would agree that the first one is bad while the second is acceptable but how does one draw the line their?

[yann.1946]

> @"Erasculio.2914" said:

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > What I am interested in is a study that proves that gambling addictions have increased in the gaming population since lootboxes became mainstream.

>

> So, [something like this?](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0213194)

>

>

 

Thank you for the interesting read but this is not what I was asking for as it only proves their is a correlation between problematic gambling and lootboxes. It still leaves room for 3 possibilities.

 

-lootboxes cause problematic gambling.

-problematic gambling causes people to buy lootboxes.

- a third cause causes both gambling and lootboxes

 

( this third one doesn't really make sense to me but is here for completions sake)

[Erasculio.2914]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> Thank you for the interesting read but this is not what I was asking for as it only proves their is a correlation between problematic gambling and lootboxes.

It kinda is what you asked for, actually. Considering how...

 

> @"yann.1946" said:

> It still leaves room for 3 possibilities.

> -lootboxes cause problematic gambling.

> -problematic gambling causes people to buy lootboxes.

> - a third cause causes both gambling and lootboxes

 

...In all of those options, the fact gaming now has loot boxes means problematic gambling is having a larger impact on gaming (whether as cause or consequence).

 

 

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

Either way. Government intervention (instead of better parental over site...) will get messy.

 

 

D:

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

Its pretty simple. Every online purchase gambling or not is made with a credit card. You cannot apply for a credit card unless you are 18, because a credit card purchase is a contract. A minor cannot enter into a contract. Therefore anytime a kid uses their parents credit card to do any online microtransaction. It's either 100% with the parents consent or the transaction is void and using the card without permission is theft and fraud.

 

So parents watch your kids. Or put blocks on your kids cell phones and PC with a password that blocks all online purchases and keep your cards in a safe place.

 

Case closed.

[yann.1946]

> @"Erasculio.2914" said:

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > Thank you for the interesting read but this is not what I was asking for as it only proves their is a correlation between problematic gambling and lootboxes.

> It kinda is what you asked for, actually. Considering how...

>

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > It still leaves room for 3 possibilities.

> > -lootboxes cause problematic gambling.

> > -problematic gambling causes people to buy lootboxes.

> > - a third cause causes both gambling and lootboxes

>

> ...In all of those options, the fact gaming now has loot boxes means problematic gambling is having a larger impact on gaming (whether as cause or consequence).

>

>

 

We'll for lootboxes cause gambling I would agree.

However let's assume for argument sake that their is only " problematic gambling causes lootboxes".

Then the gambling population within gaming could have halved, so gambling is less of a problem as it used to be, but still this correlation would exist.

 

I personally think their is a causation in both directions but as I have said no study I know of has proven this.

 

Of course then the question remains should we be take the risk and let the children become gambling addicts?

 

I'm just left to wonder isn't this the same debate people had about video games and violence etc?

[archmagus.7249]

While the chests are loot boxes, they don't contain anything which will give you an advantage over anyone else. You can also find the vast majority of items (mostly skins) on the trading post you can buy from other players. Sure xp boosters are nice, but down enough guild boosts, utility and food items, and celebration boosters, and you won't miss them. So I hope this doesn't affect GW2. After all, the smallest gem amount you can buy in the US is $10 for 800 gems. Hardly a micro transaction. I think they're targeting games where transactions are 99 cents each.