Catchyfx.5768 Posted May 16, 2019 Share Posted May 16, 2019 > @"Buran.3796" said: > > @"Arkantos.7460" said: > > i see myself using renegade for tpvp > > > > ...But let me say this: that nerfst won't move me away from Shiro/Glint power Herald, and neither from the same traits they nerfed. Power Herald just WORKS, despite year after year is more dumb to play, more streamlined, stick hitting autoattack, less engaging and fun. Still, light years above core Rev, which lacks any personality, and Renegade, the worst specialization in the game, utterly useless in PvP/WvW. So keep trying ANet, you still have a lot to nerf in Herald before making me to even think about playing other builds seriously! Power Herald forever! This. It just work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ario.8964 Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 It's sad that the only thing they needed to nerf to fix rev was OH sword. 4 and 5 do too much damage, but if you nerf that then you open up room to fix and buff rev in meaningful ways that open up new styles of play. Please stop being stupid and over elaborate with your changes anet. This is a simple problem with a simple solution. If you want, I will even write down all the changes you need to make to balance rev significantly better than now and you can just put them in game. Please just stop doing pointless changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 "oh no we can't get 25 might really easy now, we might have to think about cooldowns and timing instead of keyboard facerolling" gimme a break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > "oh no we can't get 25 might really easy now, we might have to think about cooldowns and timing instead of keyboard facerolling" > gimme a break. Well that's 1 side of the story, but that kinda all rev had. Not playing rev my self a lot but this is pretty much the only build I see in wvw and it's annoying trying to kill a rev who is on defence mode then does 50% health with sword #4 for example. They should of at least rework other aspects of the rev class. I am seeing a few more renegade/shiro s/s staff, what gives ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 > @"Buran.3796" said: > > @"Arkantos.7460" said: > > i see myself using renegade for tpvp > > I don't. > > At the begining of this PvP season played condi Renegade for about 40 matches, and "tanky" Glint-Jalis for another 40. Condi Renegade was a glass cannon with no sustain and hateful to play due every time I had to swap to staff my damage fell near to 0; Jalis build is a bad joke due as a "tank" is outclased in sutain by almost every other profession, while barely doing damage and falling away from Firebrand in support. And Jalis having the breakstun in the elite with a 40 energy unit cost and a 1.25 sec cast is just insane. Both trash tier builds, sunk me to silver. Then changed to power Herald with zerker amulet and suddenly stacked streaks of 8 - 12 wins in a row. > > The nerfs makes sense in the ANet pattern: > > * Power Herald was strong in boon duration -> boon duration is nuked. > * Power Herald has reliable access to quickness -> quicknes ends mostly removed. > * Power Herald procced tons of vulnerability, which interacted with a wide array of traits -> vulnerability is removed from most of our sources. > * Power Herald stacks large amounts of might (to compensate poor base damage) -> might stacking gets nerfed. > > ...But let me say this: that nerfst won't move me away from Shiro/Glint power Herald, and neither from the same traits they nerfed. Power Herald just WORKS, despite year after year is more dumb to play, more streamlined, stick hitting autoattack, less engaging and fun. Still, light years above core Rev, which lacks any personality, and Renegade, the worst specialization in the game, utterly useless in PvP/WvW. So keep trying ANet, you still have a lot to nerf in Herald before making me to even think about playing other builds seriously! Power Herald forever! Light years above core revenant? Maybe you should actually start playing around the profession mechanics, Power Shiro is a few years behind in any form of dueling Vs core, factually. Renegade traits alone easily outsustain Herald so whatever. Who said you are forced to play the legends that you pick the elite from and not combine core legends to other results? Herald gets picked because it attracts common players due to the skills being similar to other professions. Funny to think but, I'd like to see who would win, Renegade running around Jalis/Shiro with easy 25 might from 1 skill with 100% critical chance on diviner gear without roiling mists and access to swift, vigor and fury just as easily due to minor traits and potential to tank, viably can take devastation for even more damage or retribution for sustain. Or Herald with a heal that can be stowed away, no stability, no charged mists, issues to attain 25 might and 100% critical chance that requires a facet to constantly be up and lost if used to stunbreak, no way to tank. Both have Hammer/Staff. Tell me about it. Before you say that Jalis can't tank you should learn about what Weakness is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucianTheAngelic.7054 Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 > @"Shao.7236" said: > > @"Buran.3796" said: > > > @"Arkantos.7460" said: > > > i see myself using renegade for tpvp > > > > I don't. > > > > At the begining of this PvP season played condi Renegade for about 40 matches, and "tanky" Glint-Jalis for another 40. Condi Renegade was a glass cannon with no sustain and hateful to play due every time I had to swap to staff my damage fell near to 0; Jalis build is a bad joke due as a "tank" is outclased in sutain by almost every other profession, while barely doing damage and falling away from Firebrand in support. And Jalis having the breakstun in the elite with a 40 energy unit cost and a 1.25 sec cast is just insane. Both trash tier builds, sunk me to silver. Then changed to power Herald with zerker amulet and suddenly stacked streaks of 8 - 12 wins in a row. > > > > The nerfs makes sense in the ANet pattern: > > > > * Power Herald was strong in boon duration -> boon duration is nuked. > > * Power Herald has reliable access to quickness -> quicknes ends mostly removed. > > * Power Herald procced tons of vulnerability, which interacted with a wide array of traits -> vulnerability is removed from most of our sources. > > * Power Herald stacks large amounts of might (to compensate poor base damage) -> might stacking gets nerfed. > > > > ...But let me say this: that nerfst won't move me away from Shiro/Glint power Herald, and neither from the same traits they nerfed. Power Herald just WORKS, despite year after year is more dumb to play, more streamlined, stick hitting autoattack, less engaging and fun. Still, light years above core Rev, which lacks any personality, and Renegade, the worst specialization in the game, utterly useless in PvP/WvW. So keep trying ANet, you still have a lot to nerf in Herald before making me to even think about playing other builds seriously! Power Herald forever! > > Light years above core revenant? Maybe you should actually start playing around the profession mechanics, Power Shiro is a few years behind in any form of dueling Vs core, factually. Renegade traits alone easily outsustain Herald so whatever. Who said you are forced to play the legends that you pick the elite from and not combine core legends to other results? > > Herald gets picked because it attracts common players due to the skills being similar to other professions. > > Funny to think but, I'd like to see who would win, Renegade running around Jalis/Shiro with easy 25 might from 1 skill with 100% critical chance on diviner gear without roiling mists and access to swift, vigor and fury just as easily due to minor traits and potential to tank, viably can take devastation for even more damage or retribution for sustain. > > Or Herald with a heal that can be stowed away, no stability, no charged mists, issues to attain 25 might and 100% critical chance that requires a facet to constantly be up and lost if used to stunbreak, no way to tank. > You say you require “a Facet to be up” to maintain 100% crit, but that’s far from the only source of fury Herald has. Legend swap, riposting shadows, deathstrike (potentially Draconic Echo). Let’s get our facts right if we’re going to compare builds. Also don’t forget about permsa-swiftness, rising momentum’s “superspeed,” and Glint’s strong, no energy cost Consume skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narcx.3570 Posted May 17, 2019 Author Share Posted May 17, 2019 > @"Shao.7236" said: > > @"Buran.3796" said: > > > @"Arkantos.7460" said: > > > i see myself using renegade for tpvp > > > > I don't. > > > > At the begining of this PvP season played condi Renegade for about 40 matches, and "tanky" Glint-Jalis for another 40. Condi Renegade was a glass cannon with no sustain and hateful to play due every time I had to swap to staff my damage fell near to 0; Jalis build is a bad joke due as a "tank" is outclased in sutain by almost every other profession, while barely doing damage and falling away from Firebrand in support. And Jalis having the breakstun in the elite with a 40 energy unit cost and a 1.25 sec cast is just insane. Both trash tier builds, sunk me to silver. Then changed to power Herald with zerker amulet and suddenly stacked streaks of 8 - 12 wins in a row. > > > > The nerfs makes sense in the ANet pattern: > > > > * Power Herald was strong in boon duration -> boon duration is nuked. > > * Power Herald has reliable access to quickness -> quicknes ends mostly removed. > > * Power Herald procced tons of vulnerability, which interacted with a wide array of traits -> vulnerability is removed from most of our sources. > > * Power Herald stacks large amounts of might (to compensate poor base damage) -> might stacking gets nerfed. > > > > ...But let me say this: that nerfst won't move me away from Shiro/Glint power Herald, and neither from the same traits they nerfed. Power Herald just WORKS, despite year after year is more dumb to play, more streamlined, stick hitting autoattack, less engaging and fun. Still, light years above core Rev, which lacks any personality, and Renegade, the worst specialization in the game, utterly useless in PvP/WvW. So keep trying ANet, you still have a lot to nerf in Herald before making me to even think about playing other builds seriously! Power Herald forever! > > Light years above core revenant? Maybe you should actually start playing around the profession mechanics, Power Shiro is a few years behind in any form of dueling Vs core, factually. Renegade traits alone easily outsustain Herald so whatever. Who said you are forced to play the legends that you pick the elite from and not combine core legends to other results? How can you even kill anyone playing any of the other meta roaming classes without a Reveal tho? Hard to be light years ahead when you can't finish 99% of the fights you're in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > @"Shao.7236" said: > > > @"Buran.3796" said: > > > > @"Arkantos.7460" said: > > > > i see myself using renegade for tpvp > > > > > > I don't. > > > > > > At the begining of this PvP season played condi Renegade for about 40 matches, and "tanky" Glint-Jalis for another 40. Condi Renegade was a glass cannon with no sustain and hateful to play due every time I had to swap to staff my damage fell near to 0; Jalis build is a bad joke due as a "tank" is outclased in sutain by almost every other profession, while barely doing damage and falling away from Firebrand in support. And Jalis having the breakstun in the elite with a 40 energy unit cost and a 1.25 sec cast is just insane. Both trash tier builds, sunk me to silver. Then changed to power Herald with zerker amulet and suddenly stacked streaks of 8 - 12 wins in a row. > > > > > > The nerfs makes sense in the ANet pattern: > > > > > > * Power Herald was strong in boon duration -> boon duration is nuked. > > > * Power Herald has reliable access to quickness -> quicknes ends mostly removed. > > > * Power Herald procced tons of vulnerability, which interacted with a wide array of traits -> vulnerability is removed from most of our sources. > > > * Power Herald stacks large amounts of might (to compensate poor base damage) -> might stacking gets nerfed. > > > > > > ...But let me say this: that nerfst won't move me away from Shiro/Glint power Herald, and neither from the same traits they nerfed. Power Herald just WORKS, despite year after year is more dumb to play, more streamlined, stick hitting autoattack, less engaging and fun. Still, light years above core Rev, which lacks any personality, and Renegade, the worst specialization in the game, utterly useless in PvP/WvW. So keep trying ANet, you still have a lot to nerf in Herald before making me to even think about playing other builds seriously! Power Herald forever! > > > > Light years above core revenant? Maybe you should actually start playing around the profession mechanics, Power Shiro is a few years behind in any form of dueling Vs core, factually. Renegade traits alone easily outsustain Herald so whatever. Who said you are forced to play the legends that you pick the elite from and not combine core legends to other results? > > > > Herald gets picked because it attracts common players due to the skills being similar to other professions. > > > > Funny to think but, I'd like to see who would win, Renegade running around Jalis/Shiro with easy 25 might from 1 skill with 100% critical chance on diviner gear without roiling mists and access to swift, vigor and fury just as easily due to minor traits and potential to tank, viably can take devastation for even more damage or retribution for sustain. > > > > Or Herald with a heal that can be stowed away, no stability, no charged mists, issues to attain 25 might and 100% critical chance that requires a facet to constantly be up and lost if used to stunbreak, no way to tank. > > > > > You say you require “a Facet to be up” to maintain 100% crit, but that’s far from the only source of fury Herald has. Legend swap, riposting shadows, deathstrike (potentially Draconic Echo). Let’s get our facts right if we’re going to compare builds. > > Also don’t forget about permsa-swiftness, rising momentum’s “superspeed,” and Glint’s strong, no energy cost Consume skills. The no energy cost argument is quite null when your weapon main burst requires barely anything, energy costs are no concern when you're running charged mists. Since you'll be rolling away constantly with Riposting Shadows with way more energy to spare and while it replenishes to full endurance as well to gain vigor from brutal momentum with fury and the distance to maximize damage, perma swiftness can be easily achieved with Rapid Flow (Also extra healing) on any skill and with diviner stats you get more than enough with combo fields if you're willing to do them as otherwise just turning up the upkeep on and off works too. Any Fury benefits mentioned from your post applies to Renegade as well. I was mainly focused on how people wants to camp Herald while Shiro is just the sustain part which does not do great justice to those traits to begin with, the "perma swiftness" is mostly true if you don't care about being 3- upkeep constantly which feels wasted when you can cycle around utility better on Renegade to be versatile without losing the momentum of the fight, Rising Momentum is generally wasted because you'll never have enough Upkeep viably in use and do "superspeed" which takes -10 Upkeep but also given by Impossible odds which is an Upkeep skill itself. Making the whole ordeal useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 > @"narcx.3570" said: > > @"Shao.7236" said: > > > @"Buran.3796" said: > > > > @"Arkantos.7460" said: > > > > i see myself using renegade for tpvp > > > > > > I don't. > > > > > > At the begining of this PvP season played condi Renegade for about 40 matches, and "tanky" Glint-Jalis for another 40. Condi Renegade was a glass cannon with no sustain and hateful to play due every time I had to swap to staff my damage fell near to 0; Jalis build is a bad joke due as a "tank" is outclased in sutain by almost every other profession, while barely doing damage and falling away from Firebrand in support. And Jalis having the breakstun in the elite with a 40 energy unit cost and a 1.25 sec cast is just insane. Both trash tier builds, sunk me to silver. Then changed to power Herald with zerker amulet and suddenly stacked streaks of 8 - 12 wins in a row. > > > > > > The nerfs makes sense in the ANet pattern: > > > > > > * Power Herald was strong in boon duration -> boon duration is nuked. > > > * Power Herald has reliable access to quickness -> quicknes ends mostly removed. > > > * Power Herald procced tons of vulnerability, which interacted with a wide array of traits -> vulnerability is removed from most of our sources. > > > * Power Herald stacks large amounts of might (to compensate poor base damage) -> might stacking gets nerfed. > > > > > > ...But let me say this: that nerfst won't move me away from Shiro/Glint power Herald, and neither from the same traits they nerfed. Power Herald just WORKS, despite year after year is more dumb to play, more streamlined, stick hitting autoattack, less engaging and fun. Still, light years above core Rev, which lacks any personality, and Renegade, the worst specialization in the game, utterly useless in PvP/WvW. So keep trying ANet, you still have a lot to nerf in Herald before making me to even think about playing other builds seriously! Power Herald forever! > > > > Light years above core revenant? Maybe you should actually start playing around the profession mechanics, Power Shiro is a few years behind in any form of dueling Vs core, factually. Renegade traits alone easily outsustain Herald so whatever. Who said you are forced to play the legends that you pick the elite from and not combine core legends to other results? > > How can you even kill anyone playing any of the other meta roaming classes without a Reveal tho? I guess Stealth is overrated? When you have a huge AoE that applies Weakness and Stability and people try to backstab you anyway with your defenses, they barely do any damage. If you mean Deadeye then it can be easily LoS majority of time, Taunted with Forced Engagement which applies Weakness, Dome of the Mists another option that applies Weakness in a radius to deny close bursts and projectiles, unless you mean WvW, I'd be using that Field of the Mists a lot on Hammer. I mean everything is about Weakness with Jalis, what can I say. It's almost a meme how people never cleanse it, Power Shiro is totally worthless against it. You don't even need toughness to Tank. Without forgetting to mention how Shiro can also just let you evade constantly, since you're encouraged to spend a ton of energy with Charged Mists anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucianTheAngelic.7054 Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 > @"Shao.7236" said: > Any Fury benefits mentioned from your post applies to Renegade as well. I was mainly focused on how people wants to camp Herald while Shiro is just the sustain part which does not do great justice to those traits to begin with, the "perma swiftness" is mostly true if you don't care about being 3- upkeep constantly which feels wasted when you can cycle around utility better on Renegade to be versatile without losing the momentum of the fight, Rising Momentum is generally wasted because you'll never have enough Upkeep viably in use and do "superspeed" which takes -10 Upkeep but also given by Impossible odds which is an Upkeep skill itself. Making the whole ordeal useless. You missed my point which is that Herald CERTAINLY does NOT have to just camp Facet of Darkness to maintain perma fury. It has to activate it every now and then to compliment all the other sources of Fury that exist for Rev already. ANd perhaps bad revenants only camp Herald, but to say people "only use Shiro for the sustain" is a VAST oversimplification and NOT AT ALL how high tier Herald's play. Also what?? you have to be -3 upkeep for perma swiftness? Since when? it's a -1 upkeep and with leadership runes the swiftness has a fairly long duration. Also Rising Momentum stacks with swiftness, so you don't need -10 to achieve high in combat movement with Glint's upkeeps. Sure, it's not always "full superspeed" but it's certainly in between swiftness -> Superspeed a vast majority of the time, depending on playstyle, which is incredibly helpful when kiting enemies. Having access to higher-than-swiftness movement speed outside of Shiro is really useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narcx.3570 Posted May 17, 2019 Author Share Posted May 17, 2019 > @"Shao.7236" said: > > @"narcx.3570" said: > > > @"Shao.7236" said: > > > > @"Buran.3796" said: > > > > > @"Arkantos.7460" said: > > > > > i see myself using renegade for tpvp > > > > > > > > I don't. > > > > > > > > At the begining of this PvP season played condi Renegade for about 40 matches, and "tanky" Glint-Jalis for another 40. Condi Renegade was a glass cannon with no sustain and hateful to play due every time I had to swap to staff my damage fell near to 0; Jalis build is a bad joke due as a "tank" is outclased in sutain by almost every other profession, while barely doing damage and falling away from Firebrand in support. And Jalis having the breakstun in the elite with a 40 energy unit cost and a 1.25 sec cast is just insane. Both trash tier builds, sunk me to silver. Then changed to power Herald with zerker amulet and suddenly stacked streaks of 8 - 12 wins in a row. > > > > > > > > The nerfs makes sense in the ANet pattern: > > > > > > > > * Power Herald was strong in boon duration -> boon duration is nuked. > > > > * Power Herald has reliable access to quickness -> quicknes ends mostly removed. > > > > * Power Herald procced tons of vulnerability, which interacted with a wide array of traits -> vulnerability is removed from most of our sources. > > > > * Power Herald stacks large amounts of might (to compensate poor base damage) -> might stacking gets nerfed. > > > > > > > > ...But let me say this: that nerfst won't move me away from Shiro/Glint power Herald, and neither from the same traits they nerfed. Power Herald just WORKS, despite year after year is more dumb to play, more streamlined, stick hitting autoattack, less engaging and fun. Still, light years above core Rev, which lacks any personality, and Renegade, the worst specialization in the game, utterly useless in PvP/WvW. So keep trying ANet, you still have a lot to nerf in Herald before making me to even think about playing other builds seriously! Power Herald forever! > > > > > > Light years above core revenant? Maybe you should actually start playing around the profession mechanics, Power Shiro is a few years behind in any form of dueling Vs core, factually. Renegade traits alone easily outsustain Herald so whatever. Who said you are forced to play the legends that you pick the elite from and not combine core legends to other results? > > > > How can you even kill anyone playing any of the other meta roaming classes without a Reveal tho? > > I guess Stealth is overrated? When you have a huge AoE that applies Weakness and Stability and people try to backstab you anyway with your defenses, they barely do any damage. If you mean Deadeye then it can be easily LoS majority of time, Taunted with Forced Engagement which applies Weakness, Dome of the Mists another option that applies Weakness in a radius to deny close bursts and projectiles, unless you mean WvW, I'd be using that Field of the Mists a lot on Hammer. Avoiding backstabs and hitting people is not even what I'm talking about tho... I meant that without Gaze of Darkness you have literally no way of killing a good Thief/Holo/Soulbeast/Mirage who can just stealth to drop target+blink away, and even with PT+DS, that one or two second head start that stealth bought them means that you'll never catch them.... Your only hope w/o that reveal is to like mega burst them from 100-0 before they can react, but you're not doing that with Jalis and no Herald modifiers. :bleep_bloop: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praqtos.9035 Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 > @"narcx.3570" said: > Avoiding backstabs and hitting people is not even what I'm talking about tho... I meant that without Gaze of Darkness you have literally no way of killing a good Thief/Holo/Soulbeast/Mirage who can just stealth to drop target+blink away, and even with PT+DS, that one or two second head start that stealth bought them means that you'll never catch them.... Your only hope w/o that reveal is to like mega burst them from 100-0 before they can react, but you're not doing that with Jalis and no Herald modifiers. :bleep_bloop: Not true. Its 1800 range port that WILL catch up with a 1200 teleport from the mesmer easly. So any class that has no reveal has no place in the PvP? LuL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buran.3796 Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 > @"Shao.7236" said: > Both have Hammer/Staff. Why would you run with such suicidal weapon selection in PvP/WvW roaming? The hammer is designed to hit hard at range, in the context of large groups to maximize both area damage and being supported by your team. While wielded in duels or very small skirmishes, does very litle damage at close range, is really slow and predictable (very vulnerable to interrupts), and paired with the staff ensures that you won't have damage at mele range. That choice essentially means that you won't be able to kill anyone, so no longer matters if you're running a Renegade, a Herald or a core, or if you're using one traitline or another. How much tournaments did won those fancy hammer/staff Revs yo're talking about? Also, how could you "guess that stealth is overrated?" Stealth is amongst the best disengagement tools in the game, the best damage reduction tool in the game (essentially reduces to 0 damage any skill which requires a target or doesn't cleave an area); is the best starting point to land a burst over a unaware foe, and is magnificent to panic aware foes to force the waste and spam of evades and other valuable defensive tools.... Yeah, I guess stealth "is overrated". sure.gif I'm not claiming that Gaze of Darkness is mandatory, but for sure is way more hadful than having the breakstun in Rite of the Great Dwarf ; having good access to stability with Spirit Reinforcement doesn't change that Jalis will move slow and hit like a towell. Also, I wanted to play a slow tank, why not to use a Scourge/Reaper, which at least do big damage, or a Spellbreaker/ Holosmith, which can be as tanky while also moving fast and deliver big dps burst? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knighthonor.4061 Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 I can accept nerfs if they meant to balance out a upcoming greatsword or Greataxe elite spec.... just saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buran.3796 Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 > @"Knighthonor.4061" said: > I can accept nerfs if they meant to balance out a upcoming greatsword or Greataxe elite spec.... just saying I can't see how a new spec could change anything. Renegade isn't but a buff in numbers which is mostly played in the same way as the previous condi Revs, and none the last 3 weapons we got (short bow, spear and the off hand sword remake) provides a single defensive or mobility skill. To use the next spect you will need to resign from Herald, which means losing very good cc, AoE cleave, low energy cost for skills with dual use (passive and active). You will also need to renunce either the staff (your only truly defensive weapon) or the swords (your main source of damage). Could the new spec be as mobile and evassive as Power Herald while doing similar burst damage and cc? A Glint/Shiro build plays and moves across the landscape in a way which is very recognizable, different to the static gameplay whe the rest of our builds have. The same happens with most of the specs (except Holosmith and maybe the Daredevil) . Since the largest amount of incoming for ANet comes from PvE, they will focus the nest Rev spec in being good at the neglected raid aspect: poor power build. Which probably will lead to a spec design focused on sustained power damage vs giant piñatas, which is a failed approach when your foes are humans and not A.I. dummies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narcx.3570 Posted May 17, 2019 Author Share Posted May 17, 2019 > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > @"narcx.3570" said: > > Avoiding backstabs and hitting people is not even what I'm talking about tho... I meant that without Gaze of Darkness you have literally no way of killing a good Thief/Holo/Soulbeast/Mirage who can just stealth to drop target+blink away, and even with PT+DS, that one or two second head start that stealth bought them means that you'll never catch them.... Your only hope w/o that reveal is to like mega burst them from 100-0 before they can react, but you're not doing that with Jalis and no Herald modifiers. :bleep_bloop: > Not true. Its 1800 range port that WILL catch up with a 1200 teleport from the mesmer easly. > So any class that has no reveal has no place in the PvP? LuL Yeah cuz they only brought the one mobility skill? o.O lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praqtos.9035 Posted May 17, 2019 Share Posted May 17, 2019 > @"narcx.3570" said: > > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > > @"narcx.3570" said: > > > Avoiding backstabs and hitting people is not even what I'm talking about tho... I meant that without Gaze of Darkness you have literally no way of killing a good Thief/Holo/Soulbeast/Mirage who can just stealth to drop target+blink away, and even with PT+DS, that one or two second head start that stealth bought them means that you'll never catch them.... Your only hope w/o that reveal is to like mega burst them from 100-0 before they can react, but you're not doing that with Jalis and no Herald modifiers. :bleep_bloop: > > Not true. Its 1800 range port that WILL catch up with a 1200 teleport from the mesmer easly. > > So any class that has no reveal has no place in the PvP? LuL > > Yeah cuz they only brought the one mobility skill? o.O > > lol As I assume most of mesmers disappear/shifted to power meme builds they arent running more than a blink (assuming they play chrono,havent seen mirages at ~1700 rating but thats cant be used as proof since in my team 3 times was DRD THIEF WITH A THIEF GUILD ! ! !) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted May 18, 2019 Share Posted May 18, 2019 > @"Buran.3796" said: > > @"Shao.7236" said: > > > Both have Hammer/Staff. > > > Why would you run with such suicidal weapon selection in PvP/WvW roaming? > > The hammer is designed to hit hard at range, in the context of large groups to maximize both area damage and being supported by your team. While wielded in duels or very small skirmishes, does very litle damage at close range, is really slow and predictable (very vulnerable to interrupts), and paired with the staff ensures that you won't have damage at mele range. That choice essentially means that you won't be able to kill anyone, so no longer matters if you're running a Renegade, a Herald or a core, or if you're using one traitline or another. How much tournaments did won those fancy hammer/staff Revs yo're talking about? > > Also, how could you "guess that stealth is overrated?" Stealth is amongst the best disengagement tools in the game, the best damage reduction tool in the game (essentially reduces to 0 damage any skill which requires a target or doesn't cleave an area); is the best starting point to land a burst over a unaware foe, and is magnificent to panic aware foes to force the waste and spam of evades and other valuable defensive tools.... Yeah, I guess stealth "is overrated". sure.gif I'm not claiming that Gaze of Darkness is mandatory, but for sure is way more hadful than having the breakstun in Rite of the Great Dwarf ; having good access to stability with Spirit Reinforcement doesn't change that Jalis will move slow and hit like a towell. Also, I wanted to play a slow tank, why not to use a Scourge/Reaper, which at least do big damage, or a Spellbreaker/ Holosmith, which can be as tanky while also moving fast and deliver big dps burst? There's a lot of synergies that you are missing from the Renegade Tree, it's also Inspiring Reinforcement. I've used Staff/Hammer at close and long in WvW/PvP, it works at either if you're creative enough, it's not like you don't have the skills to sustain either because you do. In fact that weapon combo does have superior sustain compared Sword/Sword + Staff, but that's not what we are comparing against anyway. If we are talking PvP, it's dependant on the map but hammer still have it's great uses. What gives if Rite takes forever if it's gonna knockdown anything around you with added Weakness if you spec for Retribution? Even then I'd still be Devastation and have the potential to chase or kite anything with the plenty energy I get from having Charged Mist which is available unlike the forced Roiling Mists, also more powerful might with quickness with diviner gear is yummy. Seriously, dying as a Rev from any ambush which you'd usually see coming with Shiro is and should be considered a joke with how powerful Charged Mists allow you to consistently use defensive skills with weapon evades, you literally have the possibility to do RotG twice with Inspiring Reinforcement if you don't know where the the person is then switch back to Shiro and rinse and repeat with evades. Stealth is overrated, so are reaction times too then? W/e if I get one shot in the middle of nowhere in the open with nothing for me to forsee the stealth backstab or have objects to predict any attack from, it's not like anything could have saved you from it, not even auto procs unless you had enough health to survive, If it's a Deadeye however, Riposting Shadows is a good skill to start with. Finally, slow tank? What's slow about having Shiro/Jalis? Did I say I was using Renegade skills? You literally have the same mobility without having your boons locked into a legend. Doesn't matter if you say that Invocation has Fury, if you want to consistently have uptime on Might, you have to stay on Herald, saying that Riposting Shadows is an option along "Deathstrike" are good Might givers, Incensed Response and Shared Empowerment with 10 seconds at best while you can't even use full diviner gear reliably with that setup and energy is scarce compared again, Charged Mists. Heroic command easily hands you 15 might for 24 seconds which you can do every 10 seconds. (Or 8 with Orders from above.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted May 18, 2019 Share Posted May 18, 2019 > @"narcx.3570" said: > > @"Shao.7236" said: > > > @"narcx.3570" said: > > > > @"Shao.7236" said: > > > > > @"Buran.3796" said: > > > > > > @"Arkantos.7460" said: > > > > > > i see myself using renegade for tpvp > > > > > > > > > > I don't. > > > > > > > > > > At the begining of this PvP season played condi Renegade for about 40 matches, and "tanky" Glint-Jalis for another 40. Condi Renegade was a glass cannon with no sustain and hateful to play due every time I had to swap to staff my damage fell near to 0; Jalis build is a bad joke due as a "tank" is outclased in sutain by almost every other profession, while barely doing damage and falling away from Firebrand in support. And Jalis having the breakstun in the elite with a 40 energy unit cost and a 1.25 sec cast is just insane. Both trash tier builds, sunk me to silver. Then changed to power Herald with zerker amulet and suddenly stacked streaks of 8 - 12 wins in a row. > > > > > > > > > > The nerfs makes sense in the ANet pattern: > > > > > > > > > > * Power Herald was strong in boon duration -> boon duration is nuked. > > > > > * Power Herald has reliable access to quickness -> quicknes ends mostly removed. > > > > > * Power Herald procced tons of vulnerability, which interacted with a wide array of traits -> vulnerability is removed from most of our sources. > > > > > * Power Herald stacks large amounts of might (to compensate poor base damage) -> might stacking gets nerfed. > > > > > > > > > > ...But let me say this: that nerfst won't move me away from Shiro/Glint power Herald, and neither from the same traits they nerfed. Power Herald just WORKS, despite year after year is more dumb to play, more streamlined, stick hitting autoattack, less engaging and fun. Still, light years above core Rev, which lacks any personality, and Renegade, the worst specialization in the game, utterly useless in PvP/WvW. So keep trying ANet, you still have a lot to nerf in Herald before making me to even think about playing other builds seriously! Power Herald forever! > > > > > > > > Light years above core revenant? Maybe you should actually start playing around the profession mechanics, Power Shiro is a few years behind in any form of dueling Vs core, factually. Renegade traits alone easily outsustain Herald so whatever. Who said you are forced to play the legends that you pick the elite from and not combine core legends to other results? > > > > > > How can you even kill anyone playing any of the other meta roaming classes without a Reveal tho? > > > > I guess Stealth is overrated? When you have a huge AoE that applies Weakness and Stability and people try to backstab you anyway with your defenses, they barely do any damage. If you mean Deadeye then it can be easily LoS majority of time, Taunted with Forced Engagement which applies Weakness, Dome of the Mists another option that applies Weakness in a radius to deny close bursts and projectiles, unless you mean WvW, I'd be using that Field of the Mists a lot on Hammer. > > Avoiding backstabs and hitting people is not even what I'm talking about tho... I meant that without Gaze of Darkness you have literally no way of killing a good Thief/Holo/Soulbeast/Mirage who can just stealth to drop target+blink away, and even with PT+DS, that one or two second head start that stealth bought them means that you'll never catch them.... Your only hope w/o that reveal is to like mega burst them from 100-0 before they can react, but you're not doing that with Jalis and no Herald modifiers. :bleep_bloop: > With Charged Mists, Phase Traversal that I can benefit from long durations of quickness with diviner gear that still has 100% critical chance then an unblockable Forced Engagement begs to differ. Again, who said I was using Renegade skills with the Renegade spec line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted May 18, 2019 Share Posted May 18, 2019 > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said: > > @"Shao.7236" said: > > > Any Fury benefits mentioned from your post applies to Renegade as well. I was mainly focused on how people wants to camp Herald while Shiro is just the sustain part which does not do great justice to those traits to begin with, the "perma swiftness" is mostly true if you don't care about being 3- upkeep constantly which feels wasted when you can cycle around utility better on Renegade to be versatile without losing the momentum of the fight, Rising Momentum is generally wasted because you'll never have enough Upkeep viably in use and do "superspeed" which takes -10 Upkeep but also given by Impossible odds which is an Upkeep skill itself. Making the whole ordeal useless. > > You missed my point which is that Herald CERTAINLY does NOT have to just camp Facet of Darkness to maintain perma fury. It has to activate it every now and then to compliment all the other sources of Fury that exist for Rev already. ANd perhaps bad revenants only camp Herald, but to say people "only use Shiro for the sustain" is a VAST oversimplification and NOT AT ALL how high tier Herald's play. Also what?? you have to be -3 upkeep for perma swiftness? Since when? it's a -1 upkeep and with leadership runes the swiftness has a fairly long duration. Also Rising Momentum stacks with swiftness, so you don't need -10 to achieve high in combat movement with Glint's upkeeps. Sure, it's not always "full superspeed" but it's certainly in between swiftness -> Superspeed a vast majority of the time, depending on playstyle, which is incredibly helpful when kiting enemies. Having access to higher-than-swiftness movement speed outside of Shiro is really useful. > Rising Momentum does NOT stack with swiftness, it's on the wiki itself. Do inform yourself before claiming such, -3 is for Fury and Swiftness by the way, don't tell me that's not it. People play whatever seems to be meta because the lack of creativity is astonishingly bad in this game lately, very often actual skill doesn't matter and all we get taught about is stats. It's no wonder people always think Revenant is inferior yet no one tries to get good with the actual mechanics of the profession. Herald synergy was good when Renegade wasn't a thing. Now? Not so great compared it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkantos.7460 Posted May 18, 2019 Share Posted May 18, 2019 wow herald not even able to get 25 mightstacks with 3 traits and sigill .... CRAP sht on marauder in tpvp I better use Jalis shiro on Renegade and get 25 mightstacks with only 1 trait XD and dont come up with that sht heal of glint ... every noob knows how to counter infused lights Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted May 18, 2019 Share Posted May 18, 2019 > @"narcx.3570" said: > What a crazy world we live in when a patch hits and the only thing in it is a bunch of pvp/wvw REVENANT nerfs... Of all the classes to tone down. Yes, the build that has been S tier and on every MAT winning team for a year now, always has multiple showings in the top 10 in ranked, tons of representation in the top 100, and BenP has confirmed that teams with revs in ranked have a 72% higher win rate than teams without rev. Yes. That build got nerfed. What is the world coming too. You lot don't know what real nerfs feel like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge.8724 Posted May 18, 2019 Share Posted May 18, 2019 As a small suggestion from me since I do play Revenant a lot, but mostly in PvE though... But I use Sword/Shield there and with Shiro, Phase Traversal replaces my shadowstep I had on Sword 5. But the problem with this is the energy cost... But anyway, I did play Revenant in PvP before and I stopped PvP with him because I don't like to be stuck on a role of +1 all the time. Revenant have really poor sustain in PvP and full burst build was the only way to play with any kind of viability. Now, more nerf for Revenant dammage but nothing to compensate for it huh? So if I understand correctly we don't deserve to have dammage and/or sustain we only deserve none? Hmm.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted May 18, 2019 Share Posted May 18, 2019 > @"Edge.8724" said: > As a small suggestion from me since I do play Revenant a lot, but mostly in PvE though... But I use Sword/Shield there and with Shiro, Phase Traversal replaces my shadowstep I had on Sword 5. But the problem with this is the energy cost... > > But anyway, I did play Revenant in PvP before and I stopped PvP with him because I don't like to be stuck on a role of +1 all the time. Revenant have really poor sustain in PvP and full burst build was the only way to play with any kind of viability. > > Now, more nerf for Revenant dammage but nothing to compensate for it huh? So if I understand correctly we don't deserve to have dammage and/or sustain we only deserve none? > Hmm.... I suggest you to stop using Herald and try something else with core. Dwarf/Shiro on Inv/Ret/Dev has more than enough sustain and damage for you without being so reliant on might to do any damage. > @"Arkantos.7460" said: > wow herald not even able to get 25 mightstacks with 3 traits and sigill .... kitten kitten on marauder in tpvp > I better use Jalis shiro on Renegade and get 25 mightstacks with only 1 trait XD > and dont come up with that kitten heal of glint ... every noob knows how to counter infused lights Finally someone gets it and yet that's not even the full picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge.8724 Posted May 18, 2019 Share Posted May 18, 2019 > @"Shao.7236" said: > > @"Edge.8724" said: > > As a small suggestion from me since I do play Revenant a lot, but mostly in PvE though... But I use Sword/Shield there and with Shiro, Phase Traversal replaces my shadowstep I had on Sword 5. But the problem with this is the energy cost... > > > > But anyway, I did play Revenant in PvP before and I stopped PvP with him because I don't like to be stuck on a role of +1 all the time. Revenant have really poor sustain in PvP and full burst build was the only way to play with any kind of viability. > > > > Now, more nerf for Revenant dammage but nothing to compensate for it huh? So if I understand correctly we don't deserve to have dammage and/or sustain we only deserve none? > > Hmm.... > > I suggest you to stop using Herald and try something else with core. Dwarf/Shiro on Inv/Ret/Dev has more than enough sustain and damage for you without being so reliant on might to do any damage. > > > @"Arkantos.7460" said: > > wow herald not even able to get 25 mightstacks with 3 traits and sigill .... kitten kitten on marauder in tpvp > > I better use Jalis shiro on Renegade and get 25 mightstacks with only 1 trait XD > > and dont come up with that kitten heal of glint ... every noob knows how to counter infused lights > > Finally someone gets it and yet that's not even the full picture. I always liked the suggested theme of Herald which looked to some kind of boon support (but it kinda failed). But yeah, I should play Core Revenant more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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