Dont want to talk about OPness, but some builds that are not fun to play against at least

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Nerf mirage

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Buff teef :)

[Dahkeus.8243]

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > @"Dahkeus.8243" said:

> > > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > > > @"Swagg.9236" said:

> > >

> > > Thief passive playstyle? Eh.

> > >

> > > There is no arguing possible because Vault is not **it simply IS NOT** in any way or universe, a dangerous or annoying skill, it is easily avoidable, easily interuptable skill that locks thief in to "punish and delete thief now" state/animation that can not be canceled or even ported from, it even has a kitten glowing aura to shout outloud when to do it. Doesn't matter what you tell yourself about it, it is a joke of a skill.

> Why are you defending this brainless evade spam? Thief main got triggered because he feels his class is in danger?

> Spam vaults, spam evades,spam staff 3 while jumping to abuse evade frames without rolling back while doing damage on top and this is REALLY ANNOYING. OP said its about ANNOYING(not OP) and if you disagree that is annoying keep your opinion to yourself and stop to impose your opinion to everyone.

 

I'm just stating my objective opinion on the matter. I don't argue for or against things because of some allegiance to some imaginary pro/anti class agenda.

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > > > > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > > > > > > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Dahkeus.8243" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Swagg.9236" said:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Thief passive playstyle? Eh.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > There is no arguing possible because Vault is not **it simply IS NOT** in any way or universe, a dangerous or annoying skill, it is easily avoidable, easily interuptable skill that locks thief in to "punish and delete thief now" state/animation that can not be canceled or even ported from, it even has a kitten glowing aura to shout outloud when to do it. Doesn't matter what you tell yourself about it, it is a joke of a skill.

> > > > > > > > > Why are you defending this brainless evade spam ? Spam vaults, spam evades,spam staff 3 while jumping to abuse evade frames without rolling back while doing damage on top and this is REALLY ANNOYING. OP said its about ANNOYING and if you disagree that is annoying keep your opinion to yourself and stop to impose your opinion to everyone.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > In your universe thief has infinite initiative? We playing different game? DrD can use Vault **twice** before he runs out of Initiative. That a spam? I just dont understand how a gameplay that makes thief get deleted equals being annoying to someone, if thief spams Staff 3 or 5 it is Christmas time.

> > > > > > > > I find it funny how anyone can share their opinion here but I cant cuz I disagree according to you, logic level average forum user.

> > > > > > > > It is people like you who think that Thief can somehow spam skills like Vault even though its complete BS, who most obviously never even played Thief that got Thief chained in to the role its stuck with for almost 7 years now.

> > > > > > > The same way 99% of "average level forum users" clones are OP and impossible to find real memser and have perma of everything despite it not being true.

> > > > > > > Thier has extreme amount of evade, literally highest in the game, acro boosted perma vigor and staff trait gives endurance back when initiative spent, even heal gives evade,utility that gives more intiative and evade, DS(oh also passive invul on 50% as adept tier?) - all that not annoying and makes thief deleted?

> > > > > > > All this bounds looks exact the same as vault and its all more about evade spam rather than just vault exclusively if you dont get it.

> > > > > > > Its your 4rd post where you trying to impose your opinion on stuff that people find annoying for THEM, not YOU.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Not only Bound has a different animation it even doesn't have the obvious blue glow aura to be even further differentiated from Vault.

> > > > > > Highest evade in game belongs to S/D Thief not Staff DrD, someone did a spreadsheet on the complete evade time on Mirage, Thief and Weaver, that person didn't count in the auto-evade on Mirage mirrors when using stuff like Heal and it turns out Mirage had like 0.4 sec lower evade uptime than Thief, so don't bring this _"its not true for X but is true for Thief"_ BS because same as most other stuff, it simply is not true.

> > > > > What blue glow? kitten? Blue glow happens on healing skill, vault and bound almost look the same except vault jumps slightly higher than bound.

> > > >

> > > > So you don't even know Vault has massive blue aura glowing around Thief to indicate when to interrupt it and a different animation on top of that?

> > > > Cool now I see why you think its annoying since you dont even know kitten is going on.

> > > Never seen any MASSIVE BLUE AURA on vaults, ever. Even if it would be there, there wasnt too many vault thieves in my life :joy:

> > > Are you struggle to read? Its more about evade uptime rather than just VAULT.

> > > > > @"praqtos.9035" said:.

> > > > > Also that person forgot to include improved vigor in his calculations + he didnt count possible improvisation recharge for heal/roll/DS recharge which would lead to even further evade uptime.

> > > >

> > > > Of course not, because why count in something that 70% of the time recharges skills that are not even on Thief's toolbar.

> > > > Not to mention that person didn't include Distortion for Mirage which is up to 4 sec invul which even spawns Mirage Mirrors on use so even moar evade that was not considered.

> > > Trick. Trick. Deception.Signet.Trick = 70% chance to recharge something that is not on thief utility bar??????? There only TRAPS/VENOMS that not on thief bar, what happened to your math boy?

> >

> > In case you don't know _(which you dont because you don't know absolutely anything about Thief)_ DrD adds another line option but you definitely didn't manage to figure that out, you'd know that if you ever touched thief. But then again, those are pure facts and not baseless opinions so you wouldn't know that.

> >

> > It is funny as hell that there is massive blue aura around Thief when using Vault which is **a pure kitten fact** that you can super easily check your self, but your argument is _"i didn't see it so there is none"_ instead of double checking that so you'd finally learn, which caused one of the greatest lols I've ever had on Forums, using your own ignorance as an argument, jesus, not gonna bother any further with this.

> You brought up s/d thief which doesnt have any addition traitlines(your math is still terrible, even with 6 skill types its going to be 3/6 aka 50%, even if I would take DRD and replace trick utility with bandit defense its going to be 4/6 aka 66.6% to recharge something), your facts are baseless bs (that blue glow LOL) and you accuse me in another BS... No words :joy:

> I edited my post but sure I will copy it for you once more :

> Never seen any MASSIVE BLUE AURA on vaults, ever. LOL. I just log in on thief to spam vault and to figure out what MASSIVE BLUE AURA GLOWING AROUND THIEF to found...NONE.... Even asked people in mapchat and few thief players.... They thought im crazy LOL. So thats you who talking some high quality BS ...

> https://imgur.com/a/ZZoZsWF

> I never said I personally struggle with daredevil but its highly annoying. S/d thief is like 10 times more annoying to me... I think I have deja vu ...

> Ignorance? Having a conversation with biased triggered thief mains = pure ignorance :D

 

skip to 00:36 for the slowdown and focus on the REAL BLUE GLOW.

 

Alatar is correct my dude.

 

https://youtu.be/POM-yUoyjLg

 

 

[Crozame.4098]

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > > @"Dahkeus.8243" said:

> > > > > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > > > > > @"Swagg.9236" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > Thief passive playstyle? Eh.

> > > > >

> > > > > There is no arguing possible because Vault is not **it simply IS NOT** in any way or universe, a dangerous or annoying skill, it is easily avoidable, easily interuptable skill that locks thief in to "punish and delete thief now" state/animation that can not be canceled or even ported from, it even has a kitten glowing aura to shout outloud when to do it. Doesn't matter what you tell yourself about it, it is a joke of a skill.

> > > Why are you defending this brainless evade spam ? Spam vaults, spam evades,spam staff 3 while jumping to abuse evade frames without rolling back while doing damage on top and this is REALLY ANNOYING. OP said its about ANNOYING and if you disagree that is annoying keep your opinion to yourself and stop to impose your opinion to everyone.

> >

> > In your universe thief has infinite initiative? We playing different game? DrD can use Vault **twice** before he runs out of Initiative. That a spam? I just dont understand how a gameplay that makes thief get deleted equals being annoying to someone, if thief spams Staff 3 or 5 it is Christmas time.

> > I find it funny how anyone can share their opinion here but I cant cuz I disagree according to you, logic level average forum user.

> > It is people like you who think that Thief can somehow spam skills like Vault even though its complete BS, who most obviously never even played Thief that got Thief chained in to the role its stuck with for almost 7 years now.

> The same way 99% of "average level forum users" clones are OP and impossible to find real memser and have perma of everything despite it not being true.

> Thier has extreme amount of evade, literally highest in the game, acro boosted perma vigor and staff trait gives endurance back when initiative spent, even heal gives evade,utility that gives more intiative and evade, DS(oh also passive invul on 50% as adept tier?) - all that not annoying and makes thief deleted?

> All this bounds looks exact the same as vault and its all more about evade spam rather than just vault exclusively if you dont get it.

> Its your 4rd post where you trying to impose your opinion on stuff that people find annoying for THEM, not YOU.

 

Thanks for pointing out that they have heal, signet, and other sources to gain endurance~~

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Fair enough. Fun and efficiency are often at odds, sadly.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

 

> You brought up s/d thief which doesnt have any addition traitlines-

 

S/D Daredevil.

 

> Never seen any MASSIVE BLUE AURA on vaults, ever. LOL.

 

[There is a blue glow on vault to differentiate it from bound.](

"There is a blue glow on vault to differentiate it from bound.")

Also, Vault can be interrupted at the tail end.

 

> The same way 99% of "average level forum users" clones are OP and impossible to find real memser and have perma of everything despite it not being true.

 

Nobody says that. The arguments that people usually try to frame as the above focus on illusion visual spam, like the prenerfed Chrono, the fact that Mirage can force target drops or that they can evade while stunned, because people do not specifically say these things but based on the context of their argument clearly intend them.

 

I don't feel like arguing with you, I'm tired. If you have any particular retort that's fine but at the very least realize vault has a specific color in its anim.

 

 

[Swagg.9236]

What is even happening with the people who are crying about how a skill isn't adequately powerful because it can be interrupted and has a visual tell??? What absolute lunatic planet is this?? This is like that time I heard a self-proclaimed, life-long economics professor go full Stalin apologist. No risk allowed in my video game. It's not "strong" or "balanced" enough.

 

Nobody here enjoys fun. I can't believe this.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Swagg.9236" said:

> What is even happening with the people who are crying about how a skill isn't adequately powerful because it can be interrupted and has a visual tell??? What absolute lunatic planet is this?? This is like that time I heard a self-proclaimed, life-long economics professor go full Stalin apologist. No risk allowed in my video game. It's not "strong" or "balanced" enough.

>

> Nobody here enjoys fun. I can't believe this.

 

*sips coffee*

 

Nobody said that, I think. If so, cool.

 

The people talking about skills being interruptible and telegraphed are pointing that out because, if you find that mechanic unfun, you can do something to stop it from being effective against you by being a little observant. They're taking it for granted that "unfun" means "a mechanic that you cannot find a way to counter or adequately respond to in an active way" when it comes to the particular skills.

 

 

[praqtos.9035]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

>

> > You brought up s/d thief which doesnt have any addition traitlines-

>

> S/D Daredevil.

Why you even POST if you dont follow the conversation? Why wouldnt you RE-read what he spoke about ? No, why bother,read latest without understanding the rest ?

> > Never seen any MASSIVE BLUE AURA on vaults, ever. LOL.

>

> [There is a blue glow on vault to differentiate it from bound.](

"There is a blue glow on vault to differentiate it from bound.")

> Also, Vault can be interrupted at the tail end.

I know its can be interrupted somewhere at the very end. He pretend it to be interruptable when blue glow is gone which is not true, all skills by default have blue glow and its not an indicator : CC ME .

> > The same way 99% of "average level forum users" clones are OP and impossible to find real memser and have perma of everything despite it not being true.

> Nobody says that. The arguments that people usually try to frame as the above focus on illusion visual spam, like the prenerfed Chrono, the fact that Mirage can force target drops or that they can evade while stunned, because people do not specifically say these things but based on the context of their argument clearly intend them.

Every single "target drop" was nerfed to the ground and not taken anymore just as AneD nerfed mirage that much that evade in stun is mandatory. If you look at their comments they get lost in clones and 1 of their solid arguments : you have clones, thats unfair.

> I don't feel like arguing with you, I'm tired. If you have any particular retort that's fine but at the very least realize vault has a specific color in its anim.

You also have to realize that this blue glow present on EVERY animation of DrD ONLY if you have high-medium animation(and may be high settings overall) which I(and apparently many other players for obvious reasons as they want LESS flashy animations on their screen, not more) dont use and keep all settings average-minimum and you cant expect everyone to run at highest. I could make the video and you will not see any glow but you can tinker with your settings to see it yourself. It doesnt make me wrong either

If you dont read entire conversation and why its started why you even bother respond to me? May be you want to argue that people shouldnt have their opinion as well?

>The people talking about skills being interruptible and telegraphed are pointing that out because, if you find that mechanic unfun, you can do something to stop it from being effective against you by being a little observant. They're taking it for granted that "unfun" means "a mechanic that you cannot find a way to counter or adequately respond to in an active way" when it comes to the particular skills.

If you think people cant find some things annoying regardless of amount of the "counterplay" you are delusional. Like seriously, I dont even said that is my problem, I was annoyed to see him put his "2 cents" everywhere he could "I CANT BELIEVE YOU STRUGGLE WITH EVADE-STAFF THIEF ITS JUST CANNOT BE !!1111".

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> >

> > > You brought up s/d thief which doesnt have any addition traitlines-

> >

> > S/D Daredevil.

> Why you even POST if you dont follow the conversation? Why wouldnt you RE-read what he spoke about ? No, why bother,read latest without understanding the rest ?

> > > Never seen any MASSIVE BLUE AURA on vaults, ever. LOL.

> >

> > [There is a blue glow on vault to differentiate it from bound.](

"There is a blue glow on vault to differentiate it from bound.")

> > Also, Vault can be interrupted at the tail end.

> I know its can be interrupted somewhere at the very end. He pretend it to be interruptable when blue glow is gone which is not true, all skills by default have blue glow and its not an indicator : CC ME .

> > > The same way 99% of "average level forum users" clones are OP and impossible to find real memser and have perma of everything despite it not being true.

> > Nobody says that. The arguments that people usually try to frame as the above focus on illusion visual spam, like the prenerfed Chrono, the fact that Mirage can force target drops or that they can evade while stunned, because people do not specifically say these things but based on the context of their argument clearly intend them.

> Every single "target drop" was nerfed to the ground and not taken anymore just as AneD nerfed mirage that much that evade in stun is mandatory. If you look at their comments they get lost in clones and 1 of their solid arguments : you have clones, thats unfair.

> > I don't feel like arguing with you, I'm tired. If you have any particular retort that's fine but at the very least realize vault has a specific color in its anim.

> You also have to realize that this blue glow present on EVERY animation of DrD ONLY if you have high-medium animation(and may be high settings overall) which I(and apparently many other players for obvious reasons as they want LESS flashy animations on their screen, not more) dont use and keep all settings average-minimum and you cant expect everyone to run at highest. I could make the video and you will not see any glow but you can tinker with your settings to see it yourself. It doesnt make me wrong either

> If you dont read entire conversation and why its started why you even bother respond to me? May be you want to argue that people shouldnt have their opinion as well?

> >The people talking about skills being interruptible and telegraphed are pointing that out because, if you find that mechanic unfun, you can do something to stop it from being effective against you by being a little observant. They're taking it for granted that "unfun" means "a mechanic that you cannot find a way to counter or adequately respond to in an active way" when it comes to the particular skills.

 

Okay. I'm glad we could have this little discussion.

 

> If you think people cant find some things annoying regardless of amount of the "counterplay" you are delusional. Like seriously, I dont even said that is my problem, I was annoyed to see him put his "2 cents" everywhere he could "I CANT BELIEVE YOU STRUGGLE WITH EVADE-STAFF THIEF ITS JUST CANNOT BE !!1111".

 

 

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> Fair enough. Fun and efficiency are often at odds, sadly.

 

I'm not arguing that certain people are wrong or not considering certain skills fun. Fun is subjective and I am sure every skill in this game has someone that considers it unfun. The only thing I think that matters is if the skill is unfun because it is unfair. If you plain don't like it, fine. That observation I made was for the people that think it is unfun for the former reason.

 

I have no reason to argue people not liking certain skills objectively, thats why we have 9 classes to choose from.

 

[XECOR.2814]

I dont like these skills:

 

Rev sword 3 and shiro port.

Holo forge autoattacks and #5.

All lb builds ranger.

Staff skills necro.

Chaotic interruption and target break skills mesmer.

Staff Vault thief

3rd. Tome fb.

[praqtos.9035]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

>I'm not arguing that certain people are wrong or not considering certain skills fun. Fun is subjective and I am sure every skill in this game has someone that considers it unfun. The only thing I think that matters is if the skill is unfun because it is unfair. If you plain don't like it, fine. That observation I made was for the people that think it is unfun for the former reason.

>I have no reason to argue people not liking certain skills objectively, thats why we have 9 classes to choose from.

Yeah pretty much.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@"praqtos.9035" said:

>> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> >

> > > You brought up s/d thief which doesnt have any addition traitlines-

> >

> > S/D Daredevil.

> Why you even POST if you dont follow the conversation? Why wouldnt you RE-read what he spoke about ? No, why bother,read latest without understanding the rest ?

 

I was saying that S/D Daredevil has the highest active evade uptime. There's a severe damage loss but still. I wasn't arguing anything with that, just drawing your attention to it. Its higher than S/D Thief. even with the hit to improvisation.

[praqtos.9035]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> >> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > >

> > > > You brought up s/d thief which doesnt have any addition traitlines-

> > >

> > > S/D Daredevil.

> > Why you even POST if you dont follow the conversation? Why wouldnt you RE-read what he spoke about ? No, why bother,read latest without understanding the rest ?

>

> I was saying that S/D Daredevil has the highest active evade uptime. There's a severe damage loss but still. I wasn't arguing anything with that, just drawing your attention to it. Its higher than S/D Thief. even with the hit to improvisation.

The person who did calculation did it on meta s/d core build as a viable example (I guess?)

If I would speak about annoying things to me : plasma, improv DS combo, rampage, chaos rupt, any holo build and all meta stuff to lesser extent .

What do you find annoying ? ;)

[Crab Fear.1624]

/forget it, over 9000 chars

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> What do you find annoying ? ;)

 

Only things that make a blip on my radar right now are magebane tether synergizing with MMR, and Mirage cloak. Everything else is tolerable.