Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > @"Henrik.7560" said: > > > The change is kitten garbage it would make sense for mirage to lose distort not chrono kitten > > > > You can thank some Mesmers that still don't get that when you suggest nerfs and buffs only the nerfs get into patch. > > > > Some mesmers spammed that chrono should lose distortion in favor of CS without getting that chrono is already weak in terms of sustain even with distortion. > I dont remember any mesmer spammed that Illusionary persona must be taken away tho Only because no one remembered that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delofasht.4231 Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said: > > @"Delofasht.4231" said: > > > @"penguin zombies.9305" said: > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > @"everyman.4375" said: > > > > > Chrono aside why did they nerf mirage cloak again ? After the mirage cloak duration nerf, jaunt nerf and now superspeed nerf AOEs are now mirage's worst nightmare ... nice ... > > > > > > > > I'm just going to say that mirage will get nerfed every patch to calm down the hordes of crying monkeys. If mirage doesn't get any nerf they will give birth to a thousand threads asking why the godmode mirage didn't get nerfs. Heck even this way they say its a buff. > > > > > > How could this be seen as a buff? Genuinely asking, not meaning to be mean. > > > > Welp, superspeed is a buff that does not stack but replaces the existing version, when used in combat, a longer lasting superspeed was often replaced with a shorter duration .75 sec version. So the change to 66% movespeed is a net zero change out of combat, and only worse in combat when you happen to be chilled or crippled and trying to dodge. > > > > Is this to say that the changes for Mirage are buffs? I feel it is pretty much a null change, the difference in Auspicious Anguish looks interesting though, I will have to see how it functions in game, but could certainly be exciting to have a nice defensive option outside of staff cooldown reduction. I would like a change to be made to Desperate Decoy, as it tends to break casts of important skills when it goes off, so I do not end up using it even if I really do need a passive % health defensive. > > > > Edit: Also, Dune Cloak change has potential as well, but not sure it is a strong enough utility or not, boon stripping from everyone in range could be useful, but means being in the thick of danger. They really have avoided IH being baseline to the elite specialization for some reason, but I guess there was a time where it was not mandatory though, so maybe it is just common perception and not really necessary but only our self deceptions. > > Currently [speed of Sand](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Speed_of_Sand) gives Superspeed, which is a 100% increase to movement speed (So 200% movement). +66% speed instead will be 166% speed, or a 34% nerf. > > As we'll still have to move ourselves during that, that is effectively making the dodge movement less area. > > However, Superspeed is forward only, not when strafing or moving backwards. Other [movement speed boosts](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Movement_Speed) apply to all movement, so this will actually make Mirage Cloak while strafing a little better. Interesting to note is that 166% movespeed is 83% as effective as Superspeed was at doing the same thing. Meaning, the nerf to forward movement is definitely there, but as you mentioned, the gains in strafing movespeed might make up for that loss. There is some potential to completely avoid a tick of damage while dodging during a strafe out of AoE, where before it was guaranteed we would be taking some of the effect. Of course, I can't math that out for sure, and there are a number of possible placements where evading will not get the Mirage out of it anyhow (depending on direction headed as the AoE lands). The math says we will take at least one tick of damage when trying to evade a 600 range circular AoE and running straight out of the middle, where before we would have been able to avoid all of it. The difference only affects us if we were running straight when the AoE was centered on us though, because if we were strafing we would have definitely taken two ticks. So it's basically a zero sum change and QoL buff to accidentally overwriting our Superspeed buff. /cheer for being a nerd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 > @"Delofasht.4231" said: > > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said: > > > @"Delofasht.4231" said: > > > > @"penguin zombies.9305" said: > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > @"everyman.4375" said: > > > > > > Chrono aside why did they nerf mirage cloak again ? After the mirage cloak duration nerf, jaunt nerf and now superspeed nerf AOEs are now mirage's worst nightmare ... nice ... > > > > > > > > > > I'm just going to say that mirage will get nerfed every patch to calm down the hordes of crying monkeys. If mirage doesn't get any nerf they will give birth to a thousand threads asking why the godmode mirage didn't get nerfs. Heck even this way they say its a buff. > > > > > > > > How could this be seen as a buff? Genuinely asking, not meaning to be mean. > > > > > > Welp, superspeed is a buff that does not stack but replaces the existing version, when used in combat, a longer lasting superspeed was often replaced with a shorter duration .75 sec version. So the change to 66% movespeed is a net zero change out of combat, and only worse in combat when you happen to be chilled or crippled and trying to dodge. > > > > > > Is this to say that the changes for Mirage are buffs? I feel it is pretty much a null change, the difference in Auspicious Anguish looks interesting though, I will have to see how it functions in game, but could certainly be exciting to have a nice defensive option outside of staff cooldown reduction. I would like a change to be made to Desperate Decoy, as it tends to break casts of important skills when it goes off, so I do not end up using it even if I really do need a passive % health defensive. > > > > > > Edit: Also, Dune Cloak change has potential as well, but not sure it is a strong enough utility or not, boon stripping from everyone in range could be useful, but means being in the thick of danger. They really have avoided IH being baseline to the elite specialization for some reason, but I guess there was a time where it was not mandatory though, so maybe it is just common perception and not really necessary but only our self deceptions. > > > > Currently [speed of Sand](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Speed_of_Sand) gives Superspeed, which is a 100% increase to movement speed (So 200% movement). +66% speed instead will be 166% speed, or a 34% nerf. > > > > As we'll still have to move ourselves during that, that is effectively making the dodge movement less area. > > > > However, Superspeed is forward only, not when strafing or moving backwards. Other [movement speed boosts](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Movement_Speed) apply to all movement, so this will actually make Mirage Cloak while strafing a little better. > > Interesting to note is that 166% movespeed is 83% as effective as Superspeed was at doing the same thing. Meaning, the nerf to forward movement is definitely there, but as you mentioned, the gains in strafing movespeed might make up for that loss. There is some potential to completely avoid a tick of damage while dodging during a strafe out of AoE, where before it was guaranteed we would be taking some of the effect. Of course, I can't math that out for sure, and there are a number of possible placements where evading will not get the Mirage out of it anyhow (depending on direction headed as the AoE lands). The math says we will take at least one tick of damage when trying to evade a 600 range circular AoE and running straight out of the middle, where before we would have been able to avoid all of it. The difference only affects us if we were running straight when the AoE was centered on us though, because if we were strafing we would have definitely taken two ticks. So it's basically a zero sum change and QoL buff to accidentally overwriting our Superspeed buff. /cheer for being a nerd. but when you get slowed/chilled and you use mirage cloak, you are still slowed/chilled so you cant leave aoe. might be a pain against scourge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 > @"Delofasht.4231" said: > > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said: > > > @"Delofasht.4231" said: > > > > @"penguin zombies.9305" said: > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > @"everyman.4375" said: > > > > > > Chrono aside why did they nerf mirage cloak again ? After the mirage cloak duration nerf, jaunt nerf and now superspeed nerf AOEs are now mirage's worst nightmare ... nice ... > > > > > > > > > > I'm just going to say that mirage will get nerfed every patch to calm down the hordes of crying monkeys. If mirage doesn't get any nerf they will give birth to a thousand threads asking why the godmode mirage didn't get nerfs. Heck even this way they say its a buff. > > > > > > > > How could this be seen as a buff? Genuinely asking, not meaning to be mean. > > > > > > Welp, superspeed is a buff that does not stack but replaces the existing version, when used in combat, a longer lasting superspeed was often replaced with a shorter duration .75 sec version. So the change to 66% movespeed is a net zero change out of combat, and only worse in combat when you happen to be chilled or crippled and trying to dodge. > > > > > > Is this to say that the changes for Mirage are buffs? I feel it is pretty much a null change, the difference in Auspicious Anguish looks interesting though, I will have to see how it functions in game, but could certainly be exciting to have a nice defensive option outside of staff cooldown reduction. I would like a change to be made to Desperate Decoy, as it tends to break casts of important skills when it goes off, so I do not end up using it even if I really do need a passive % health defensive. > > > > > > Edit: Also, Dune Cloak change has potential as well, but not sure it is a strong enough utility or not, boon stripping from everyone in range could be useful, but means being in the thick of danger. They really have avoided IH being baseline to the elite specialization for some reason, but I guess there was a time where it was not mandatory though, so maybe it is just common perception and not really necessary but only our self deceptions. > > > > Currently [speed of Sand](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Speed_of_Sand) gives Superspeed, which is a 100% increase to movement speed (So 200% movement). +66% speed instead will be 166% speed, or a 34% nerf. > > > > As we'll still have to move ourselves during that, that is effectively making the dodge movement less area. > > > > However, Superspeed is forward only, not when strafing or moving backwards. Other [movement speed boosts](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Movement_Speed) apply to all movement, so this will actually make Mirage Cloak while strafing a little better. > > Interesting to note is that 166% movespeed is 83% as effective as Superspeed was at doing the same thing. Meaning, the nerf to forward movement is definitely there, but as you mentioned, the gains in strafing movespeed might make up for that loss. There is some potential to completely avoid a tick of damage while dodging during a strafe out of AoE, where before it was guaranteed we would be taking some of the effect. Of course, I can't math that out for sure, and there are a number of possible placements where evading will not get the Mirage out of it anyhow (depending on direction headed as the AoE lands). The math says we will take at least one tick of damage when trying to evade a 600 range circular AoE and running straight out of the middle, where before we would have been able to avoid all of it. The difference only affects us if we were running straight when the AoE was centered on us though, because if we were strafing we would have definitely taken two ticks. So it's basically a zero sum change and QoL buff to accidentally overwriting our Superspeed buff. /cheer for being a nerd. Strafing will still cover less distance than a regular dodge. Plus what Leonidrex said. So it is more of a nerf than a buff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartpains.7312 Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > You can thank some Mesmers that still don't get that when you suggest nerfs and buffs only the nerfs get into patch. Sadly some mesmers still don't get that, which is why at some point I said that mesmers community shouldn't point at what to nerf regarding mesmers, whenever a mesmer suggest nerfs and buffs, the nerfs goes through the patch, the buffs goes into mystic forge and turns into nerfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praqtos.9035 Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 > @"Heartpains.7312" said: > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > You can thank some Mesmers that still don't get that when you suggest nerfs and buffs only the nerfs get into patch. > > Sadly some mesmers still don't get that, which is why at some point I said that mesmers community shouldn't point at what to nerf regarding mesmers, whenever a mesmer suggest nerfs and buffs, the nerfs goes through the patch, the buffs goes into mystic forge and turns into nerfs. Random nerfs like speed of sands that must be baseline for mirage BUT its nooooo ....GRANDMASTER TRAIT, who the fk else have band aid GRANDMASTER minor traits to fix re-ta-rdness of your own elite spec??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delofasht.4231 Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > Strafing will still cover less distance than a regular dodge. Plus what Leonidrex said. > So it is more of a nerf than a buff. > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > but when you get slowed/chilled and you use mirage cloak, you are still slowed/chilled so you cant leave aoe. might be a pain against scourge Alright, just to be clear here, Strafing under the effects of Mirage Cloak after the patch will cover more distance than it currently does, so in that respect it is a buff. As has been noted, it is more of a lateral shift in function and can only benefit anyone has access to Superspeed from other sources (where overwriting with Mirage Cloak results in a loss of Superspeed duration). If you are always only ever running forward under Mirage Cloak, then you may notice this as a nerf, but, if you have ever, for any reason, needed to strafe while it is active, then you will actually be benefiting from the change. In response to being chilled or crippled, previously, we would take the full duration of an AoE while strafing under a Mirage Cloak, now we will take 2 ticks. Moving forward, while under the effects of Mirage Cloak will now result in also taking 2 ticks. Before the change you had 0 ticks in one direction and full ticks in any other. This limited the functionality of Mirage Cloak, making forward the only acceptable motion to take with it active. The change makes all directions except back much more consistent. So, one again, the change is only a benefit unless you ALWAYS ran forward when facing those enemies. I am betting most players strafed so they could cast some weapon skills like Magic Bullet and Confusing Images... while under a Mirage Cloak, in combat, while enemies were dropping AoE. Is it a buff? Kind of. Is it a nerf? Kind of. So I guess it's really more of a lateral shift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > @"NICENIKESHOE.7128" said: > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > > > > > I dont know what to think about chrono changes ,no clones no shatters while they are thin as paper.... Scary... > > > > > > And no nerfs on chaos interrupt which means mesmer going to have more and more hate day after day > > > > > > > > > > Chaos interrupt will fall in the unused builds like it always be once people start playing with condiclear and more defense again. > > > > > BTW about the note : > > > > > * What did they mean by the illusion counter ? it may be my bad english but I don't get it. > > > > > * Speed of Sand = no superspeed reset when using master of manipulation. > > > > > * Chrono shatter : it's a shatter mecanics like without IP and we lose F4 invul. Need to see the numbers. > > > > > * Dune cloak : can be pretty good with boon removal. > > > > > * Auspicious anguish : hudge survival nerf for all chaos builds. (Hopefully I switched to no chaos builds.) > > > > > > > > > > Will see how did it perform with other changes. > > > > > > > > > > BTW WHERE IS THE GLAMOUR TRAIT : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72428/when-will-the-glamour-trait-come-back > > > > > Come on please... > > > > > > > > > > > > > the three purple/pink dots next to shatters now reflect on non-shattered clones only rather than included ones running towards enemy for shatter. > > > > > > To clarify further, it's a cosmetic change only and has no gameplay implications. > > > > > > The changes to chrono being unable to self-shatter, on the other hand, is pretty devastating for any hope of mesmer being usable in WvW groups. It's also just generally a miserable change from a QoL perspective. There's a good reason why almost every single build in vanilla took illusionary persona until it became baseline. > > > > > > > True but they were looking for a way to add a trade off to chrono, what would in your opinion be a fair tradeoff? > > They got rid of distortion, did you not notice that? Pretty much my thinking. Losing distortion is a tradeoff (while technically it's rolled into CS, in practice now it essentially just serves as a cover for the first second of CS rather than providing a defensive benefit). Losing Illusory Persona is a tradeoff. Losing both in one patch is overkill. Maybe if Illusionary Reversion gets, well, _reverted,_ but that could turn it into the new Illusory Persona. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praqtos.9035 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > @"NICENIKESHOE.7128" said: > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > > > > > > I dont know what to think about chrono changes ,no clones no shatters while they are thin as paper.... Scary... > > > > > > > And no nerfs on chaos interrupt which means mesmer going to have more and more hate day after day > > > > > > > > > > > > Chaos interrupt will fall in the unused builds like it always be once people start playing with condiclear and more defense again. > > > > > > BTW about the note : > > > > > > * What did they mean by the illusion counter ? it may be my bad english but I don't get it. > > > > > > * Speed of Sand = no superspeed reset when using master of manipulation. > > > > > > * Chrono shatter : it's a shatter mecanics like without IP and we lose F4 invul. Need to see the numbers. > > > > > > * Dune cloak : can be pretty good with boon removal. > > > > > > * Auspicious anguish : hudge survival nerf for all chaos builds. (Hopefully I switched to no chaos builds.) > > > > > > > > > > > > Will see how did it perform with other changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW WHERE IS THE GLAMOUR TRAIT : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72428/when-will-the-glamour-trait-come-back > > > > > > Come on please... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the three purple/pink dots next to shatters now reflect on non-shattered clones only rather than included ones running towards enemy for shatter. > > > > > > > > To clarify further, it's a cosmetic change only and has no gameplay implications. > > > > > > > > The changes to chrono being unable to self-shatter, on the other hand, is pretty devastating for any hope of mesmer being usable in WvW groups. It's also just generally a miserable change from a QoL perspective. There's a good reason why almost every single build in vanilla took illusionary persona until it became baseline. > > > > > > > > > > True but they were looking for a way to add a trade off to chrono, what would in your opinion be a fair tradeoff? > > > > They got rid of distortion, did you not notice that? > > Pretty much my thinking. Losing distortion is a tradeoff (while technically it's rolled into CS, in practice now it essentially just serves as a cover for the first second of CS rather than providing a defensive benefit). Losing Illusory Persona is a tradeoff. Losing both in one patch is overkill. > > Maybe if Illusionary Reversion gets, well, _reverted,_ but that could turn it into the new Illusory Persona. Put Illusionary persona in the replacement of any trait and I assure you, it would be taken no matter what other 2 options are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > @"NICENIKESHOE.7128" said: > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > > > > > > > I dont know what to think about chrono changes ,no clones no shatters while they are thin as paper.... Scary... > > > > > > > > And no nerfs on chaos interrupt which means mesmer going to have more and more hate day after day > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chaos interrupt will fall in the unused builds like it always be once people start playing with condiclear and more defense again. > > > > > > > BTW about the note : > > > > > > > * What did they mean by the illusion counter ? it may be my bad english but I don't get it. > > > > > > > * Speed of Sand = no superspeed reset when using master of manipulation. > > > > > > > * Chrono shatter : it's a shatter mecanics like without IP and we lose F4 invul. Need to see the numbers. > > > > > > > * Dune cloak : can be pretty good with boon removal. > > > > > > > * Auspicious anguish : hudge survival nerf for all chaos builds. (Hopefully I switched to no chaos builds.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will see how did it perform with other changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW WHERE IS THE GLAMOUR TRAIT : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72428/when-will-the-glamour-trait-come-back > > > > > > > Come on please... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the three purple/pink dots next to shatters now reflect on non-shattered clones only rather than included ones running towards enemy for shatter. > > > > > > > > > > To clarify further, it's a cosmetic change only and has no gameplay implications. > > > > > > > > > > The changes to chrono being unable to self-shatter, on the other hand, is pretty devastating for any hope of mesmer being usable in WvW groups. It's also just generally a miserable change from a QoL perspective. There's a good reason why almost every single build in vanilla took illusionary persona until it became baseline. > > > > > > > > > > > > > True but they were looking for a way to add a trade off to chrono, what would in your opinion be a fair tradeoff? > > > > > > They got rid of distortion, did you not notice that? > > > > Pretty much my thinking. Losing distortion is a tradeoff (while technically it's rolled into CS, in practice now it essentially just serves as a cover for the first second of CS rather than providing a defensive benefit). Losing Illusory Persona is a tradeoff. Losing both in one patch is overkill. > > > > Maybe if Illusionary Reversion gets, well, _reverted,_ but that could turn it into the new Illusory Persona. > Put Illusionary persona in the replacement of any trait and I assure you, it would be taken no matter what other 2 options are I wasn't saying that Illusionary Reversion would be given the effect of Persona, but if it was reverted to its launch state, it might become _like_ Persona in that it becomes a must-take trait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praqtos.9035 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > > @"NICENIKESHOE.7128" said: > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > > > > > > > > I dont know what to think about chrono changes ,no clones no shatters while they are thin as paper.... Scary... > > > > > > > > > And no nerfs on chaos interrupt which means mesmer going to have more and more hate day after day > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chaos interrupt will fall in the unused builds like it always be once people start playing with condiclear and more defense again. > > > > > > > > BTW about the note : > > > > > > > > * What did they mean by the illusion counter ? it may be my bad english but I don't get it. > > > > > > > > * Speed of Sand = no superspeed reset when using master of manipulation. > > > > > > > > * Chrono shatter : it's a shatter mecanics like without IP and we lose F4 invul. Need to see the numbers. > > > > > > > > * Dune cloak : can be pretty good with boon removal. > > > > > > > > * Auspicious anguish : hudge survival nerf for all chaos builds. (Hopefully I switched to no chaos builds.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will see how did it perform with other changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW WHERE IS THE GLAMOUR TRAIT : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72428/when-will-the-glamour-trait-come-back > > > > > > > > Come on please... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the three purple/pink dots next to shatters now reflect on non-shattered clones only rather than included ones running towards enemy for shatter. > > > > > > > > > > > > To clarify further, it's a cosmetic change only and has no gameplay implications. > > > > > > > > > > > > The changes to chrono being unable to self-shatter, on the other hand, is pretty devastating for any hope of mesmer being usable in WvW groups. It's also just generally a miserable change from a QoL perspective. There's a good reason why almost every single build in vanilla took illusionary persona until it became baseline. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > True but they were looking for a way to add a trade off to chrono, what would in your opinion be a fair tradeoff? > > > > > > > > They got rid of distortion, did you not notice that? > > > > > > Pretty much my thinking. Losing distortion is a tradeoff (while technically it's rolled into CS, in practice now it essentially just serves as a cover for the first second of CS rather than providing a defensive benefit). Losing Illusory Persona is a tradeoff. Losing both in one patch is overkill. > > > > > > Maybe if Illusionary Reversion gets, well, _reverted,_ but that could turn it into the new Illusory Persona. > > Put Illusionary persona in the replacement of any trait and I assure you, it would be taken no matter what other 2 options are > > I wasn't saying that Illusionary Reversion would be given the effect of Persona, but if it was reverted to its launch state, it might become _like_ Persona in that it becomes a must-take trait. I know you didnt say it... however if they replace any trait with IP, in competitive game modes it would be taken regardless(i'm 99.9% sure about it). Even if they revert IR I dont think that would be enough. And who even like "a must have traits" ?How its good for anyone? Why dont remove all options and give us elite specializations/traitlines without a choice ? Edt: Cooldown is insanely long and not worth losing IP just to get this crappy shatter. Can I play chronomancer just as core but without CS? Would be like a normal traitline that offer wells/alacrity shatter :joy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > > > @"draxynnic.3719" said: > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > > > @"NICENIKESHOE.7128" said: > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"praqtos.9035" said: > > > > > > > > > > I dont know what to think about chrono changes ,no clones no shatters while they are thin as paper.... Scary... > > > > > > > > > > And no nerfs on chaos interrupt which means mesmer going to have more and more hate day after day > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chaos interrupt will fall in the unused builds like it always be once people start playing with condiclear and more defense again. > > > > > > > > > BTW about the note : > > > > > > > > > * What did they mean by the illusion counter ? it may be my bad english but I don't get it. > > > > > > > > > * Speed of Sand = no superspeed reset when using master of manipulation. > > > > > > > > > * Chrono shatter : it's a shatter mecanics like without IP and we lose F4 invul. Need to see the numbers. > > > > > > > > > * Dune cloak : can be pretty good with boon removal. > > > > > > > > > * Auspicious anguish : hudge survival nerf for all chaos builds. (Hopefully I switched to no chaos builds.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will see how did it perform with other changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW WHERE IS THE GLAMOUR TRAIT : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72428/when-will-the-glamour-trait-come-back > > > > > > > > > Come on please... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the three purple/pink dots next to shatters now reflect on non-shattered clones only rather than included ones running towards enemy for shatter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To clarify further, it's a cosmetic change only and has no gameplay implications. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The changes to chrono being unable to self-shatter, on the other hand, is pretty devastating for any hope of mesmer being usable in WvW groups. It's also just generally a miserable change from a QoL perspective. There's a good reason why almost every single build in vanilla took illusionary persona until it became baseline. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > True but they were looking for a way to add a trade off to chrono, what would in your opinion be a fair tradeoff? > > > > > > > > > > They got rid of distortion, did you not notice that? > > > > > > > > Pretty much my thinking. Losing distortion is a tradeoff (while technically it's rolled into CS, in practice now it essentially just serves as a cover for the first second of CS rather than providing a defensive benefit). Losing Illusory Persona is a tradeoff. Losing both in one patch is overkill. > > > > > > > > Maybe if Illusionary Reversion gets, well, _reverted,_ but that could turn it into the new Illusory Persona. > > > Put Illusionary persona in the replacement of any trait and I assure you, it would be taken no matter what other 2 options are > > > > I wasn't saying that Illusionary Reversion would be given the effect of Persona, but if it was reverted to its launch state, it might become _like_ Persona in that it becomes a must-take trait. > I know you didnt say it... however if they replace any trait with IP, in competitive game modes it would be taken regardless(i'm 99.9% sure about it). > Even if they revert IR I dont think that would be enough. > And who even like "a must have traits" ?How its good for anyone? Why dont remove all options and give us elite specializations/traitlines without a choice ? > Edt: Cooldown is insanely long and not worth losing IP just to get this crappy shatter. > Can I play chronomancer just as core but without CS? Would be like a normal traitline that offer wells/alacrity shatter :joy: Seems like we're in general agreement there, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delofasht.4231 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 What is absolutely staggering to me is that many of the players complaining here are also the ones that wanted to see gameplay changes to the Chrono elite specialization. The changes to Chrono make the gameplay different, significantly so, from Core. By decoupling the gameplay from Core and Chrono, many of the shatters of core can be buffed directly without becoming broken by Chrono shatters. They are likely to do a set of renaming for Mirage shatters with subtly different functions as well, to make it so they can directly buff or nerf each version of Mesmer without negatively impacting others. This would reduce the number of potential changes with each patch and allow them to focus their efforts. Example: Chrono is suffering, buff their shatters, instead of Mesmer traitlines, no longer risks breaking Core or Mirage. Another potential option is that of making skills that produce clones now work outside of combat, so we could actually start combat with clones, or generate them for various shatters without requiring a target (this is wishful thinking I am afraid... but possible). Good players will adapt, poor ones will cry (until a new popular build is found that is easy to play and strong). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel.8427 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 > @"Delofasht.4231" said: > What is absolutely staggering to me is that many of the players complaining here are also the ones that wanted to see gameplay changes to the Chrono elite specialization. I'm surprised to see so many complain BEFORE we've even gotten the chance to playtest the changes. Certain things are obvious... like losing IP is a huge nerf. We don't have the details of most of the other changes, though. Personally, I'm really excited. I'm getting exactly what I wanted: 1) Tradeoffs for all Elite Specializations. 2) Mesmer Elites that actually CHANGE the profession mechanics. If Chrono is underperforming after this change, we can all storm the forums and demand more adjustments. My biggest disappointment is actually the lack of weapon trait adjustments. They've been adjusting weapon traits across the professions for about a year now... Pretty sure Mesmer is the only profession they haven't touched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 > @"penguin zombies.9305" said: > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > @"everyman.4375" said: > > > Chrono aside why did they nerf mirage cloak again ? After the mirage cloak duration nerf, jaunt nerf and now superspeed nerf AOEs are now mirage's worst nightmare ... nice ... > > > > I'm just going to say that mirage will get nerfed every patch to calm down the hordes of crying monkeys. If mirage doesn't get any nerf they will give birth to a thousand threads asking why the godmode mirage didn't get nerfs. Heck even this way they say its a buff. > > How could this be seen as a buff? Genuinely asking, not meaning to be mean. if you use master of manipulation mirage cloak won't turn your 3s superspeed into .75s, happens sometimes now pretty annoying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartpains.7312 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 > @"Delofasht.4231" said: > Example: Chrono is suffering, buff their shatters, instead of Mesmer traitlines, no longer risks breaking Core or Mirage. > Good players will adapt, poor ones will cry (until a new popular build is found that is easy to play and strong). While your example is good and is right, but if you consider the work they will need to do by then, that requires 3 months for each patch (and assuming they get things right aka no need to nerf or buff or change) you go ahead and see how long that is, they can't do it. I think good players are starting to leave, people are getting tired of trying to adapt, or needing to wait 3 months for a hope to fix things, and this is only balance things regarding professions. (lets not talk about poor chrono players) I played and still playing in server that last year, we lost our link and at that time people left the server too, and we had to deal with that for 2 months in wvw (of course it is more money for them because people kept leaving the server), it was upsetting even though I don't care much if we win or lose, but the fights were literally 1vs4 or 5vs30, just saying, remember that people have to deal with many things. Same goes for bots and wintrading in spvp, not everything is about adapting > @"Mikkel.8427" said: > If Chrono is underperforming after this change, we can all storm the forums and demand more adjustments. Who is left to storm the forums Mikkel, you know very well how anet deals with these things :bawling: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delofasht.4231 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Well, they certainly have set an expectation of not changing things in a timely fashion. A lot of the most recent changes look like variations on our requests of recent though, people asked for Chrono to be altered so they wouldn't just be Core++, likewise they suggested Dune Cloak for Mirage be changed... both things have happened in the last 3 months. This is an unprecedented change in development response, we have never seen suggestions be posted and go through in the same balance patch sequence like this. Either they have figured out what they need to do, or they read the response on the boards that resonated with their design philosophy well enough to try implementation. Should we continue to provide feedback, we may see another wave of changes in the not so distant future. One such proposition was making the Ambushes on Mirage be linked to the Shatters (replacing them), this is a pretty good idea actually. Core and Chrono are much more focused on shattering in general, and approach it in different ways, it would be quite interesting to have an elite spec that is focused on keeping clones and illusions around while being deceptive and surviving (how they seem to have thought Mirage should be anyhow). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansau.7326 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 > @"Mikkel.8427" said: > > @"Delofasht.4231" said: > > What is absolutely staggering to me is that many of the players complaining here are also the ones that wanted to see gameplay changes to the Chrono elite specialization. > > I'm surprised to see so many complain BEFORE we've even gotten the chance to playtest the changes. Certain things are obvious... like losing IP is a huge nerf. We don't have the details of most of the other changes, though. > > Personally, I'm really excited. I'm getting exactly what I wanted: > > 1) Tradeoffs for all Elite Specializations. > 2) Mesmer Elites that actually CHANGE the profession mechanics. > > If Chrono is underperforming after this change, we can all storm the forums and demand more adjustments. > > My biggest disappointment is actually the lack of weapon trait adjustments. They've been adjusting weapon traits across the professions for about a year now... Pretty sure Mesmer is the only profession they haven't touched. > If people complain is because of how anet acts and reacts in these kind of cases. This isn't a new game, we have had years of experience dealing with all the weaknesses with anet's balance approach. People don't have a problem with changing stuff, but do when it is done in anet's style: * In most cases there isn't a clear path or direction in the changes done, or the one they proclaim either doesn't align with the specific changes or contradicts the theme of the class. There is so randomness in their balance, it's very difficult to be positive with any big mechanical rework. "These shatters behave differently than core mesmer shatters" And yet, when you read the descriptions, Split Second=buffed MW, Rewinder=buffed CoF, Time Sink=buffed Diversion, plus tradeoff of Distortion for a buffed CS. SO. MUCH. DIFFERENT. BEHAVIOUR. #bychangingnameandbuffingsameskills. "We want mirages to excel in longer combat engagements". Two patches before they nerfed vigor uptime (so critical to Mirages), patch before that statement they further nerfed Elusive Mind, in same patch they lower Jaunt charges while next balance they lowered Mirage Cloak time. EXCELLING. IN. LONGER. FIGHTS. #bynerfingmiragesurvivabilityin4consecutivepatches. # * Their update pace is so low that each patch has enough time to set down and become a separated meta with its whole set of issues. Quick reaction is non-existent, which leads that broken buffs will be abused while nerfs have to be suffered for months. In August 2018 they buffed scepter damage out of nowhere, and it took them 8 months to revert, showing how unwarranted the buff was. In May 2017 they increased might stacks of Bountiful Disillusionment from 3 to 5. In March 2018 they did the reverse. EIGHT. FREAKING. MONTHS. TO. REVERT. BUFFS. #andleavethemworsethaninitially. Also, these previews of balance patches tend to be the majority of rework they are later implementing. It's very rare for Anet to hide big surprises we discover later on patch launch. Most of it is already known and people can anticipate how the classes will do for the following months. Don't expect new outcomes to compensate the lost of Distortion and IP. Chrono will either suffer it by becoming frustrating to play and considerably underpowered, or it'sgoing to dominate again for the next 3-6 months if extra buffs of different dressed F-skills end up being insane (level of buff like iDisenchanter with +300% base and extra 250% against no-boon targets). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delofasht.4231 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Honestly, I expected the changes to be much worse than what we have seen previewed in this patch. Try setting your expectations to “They are going to delete Mesmer”, and then basically any change is pretty much a free pass to change your build and keep winning. I have to do it every few months myself. I usually avoid these forums, because people tend to feel they are always right and anyone who disagrees with them is wrong, but I really did want to help the devs with some input that is less extreme. I do not want nerfs, but most of the changes in this patch will be more like adjustments to playstyle, disruptive maybe, but maybe Chrono will feel less clunky... maybe the CD on C/S will not be as long as it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 > @"Delofasht.4231" said: > What is absolutely staggering to me is that many of the players complaining here are also the ones that wanted to see gameplay changes to the Chrono elite specialization. The changes to Chrono make the gameplay different, significantly so, from Core. By decoupling the gameplay from Core and Chrono, many of the shatters of core can be buffed directly without becoming broken by Chrono shatters. They are likely to do a set of renaming for Mirage shatters with subtly different functions as well, to make it so they can directly buff or nerf each version of Mesmer without negatively impacting others. This would reduce the number of potential changes with each patch and allow them to focus their efforts. > > Example: Chrono is suffering, buff their shatters, instead of Mesmer traitlines, no longer risks breaking Core or Mirage. > > Another potential option is that of making skills that produce clones now work outside of combat, so we could actually start combat with clones, or generate them for various shatters without requiring a target (this is wishful thinking I am afraid... but possible). > > Good players will adapt, poor ones will cry (until a new popular build is found that is easy to play and strong). Its not about bringing change to the class or how hard or easy its gonna be, its about how the feel of class will be afterwards, and i think some of these changes are nerfing the feel heavily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoci.2481 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Why even have distortion on CS? You get back all your health at the end of CS anyway. So it does nothing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delofasht.4231 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Delofasht.4231" said: > > What is absolutely staggering to me is that many of the players complaining here are also the ones that wanted to see gameplay changes to the Chrono elite specialization. The changes to Chrono make the gameplay different, significantly so, from Core. By decoupling the gameplay from Core and Chrono, many of the shatters of core can be buffed directly without becoming broken by Chrono shatters. They are likely to do a set of renaming for Mirage shatters with subtly different functions as well, to make it so they can directly buff or nerf each version of Mesmer without negatively impacting others. This would reduce the number of potential changes with each patch and allow them to focus their efforts. > > > > Example: Chrono is suffering, buff their shatters, instead of Mesmer traitlines, no longer risks breaking Core or Mirage. > > > > Another potential option is that of making skills that produce clones now work outside of combat, so we could actually start combat with clones, or generate them for various shatters without requiring a target (this is wishful thinking I am afraid... but possible). > > > > Good players will adapt, poor ones will cry (until a new popular build is found that is easy to play and strong). > > Its not about bringing change to the class or how hard or easy its gonna be, its about how the feel of class will be afterwards, and i think some of these changes are nerfing the feel heavily. Predetermining your reaction before having played it will invariably lead to merely bias when you do play it. It is going to be different, and significantly so, but someone will figure out how to play it right, share that playstyle and then the complaining will return to how other professions may be doing one thing or another that we used to do but “better”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 I can confirm, Distortion on Chrono now does not scale with amount of clones shattered (was to be expected from the wording of the patch change). I just tested F4 on chrono, it gives 1 second of distortion even with 3 clones up. F1-F3 can not be shattered for 1.5 seconds of alacrity on self without clones, reducing chronos personal alacrity uptime as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountifulmayhem.3018 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Not only is the removal of self shattering possibly the most idiotic decision made since the introduction of aoe evade well, placing a 1 second distortion on a 105 second cooldown as your only defensive shatter is also grossly overnerfing and unnecessary. This confirms that no one with any say at Anet has any clue how mesmer works whatsoever in pvp/wvw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 > @"Delofasht.4231" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Delofasht.4231" said: > > > What is absolutely staggering to me is that many of the players complaining here are also the ones that wanted to see gameplay changes to the Chrono elite specialization. The changes to Chrono make the gameplay different, significantly so, from Core. By decoupling the gameplay from Core and Chrono, many of the shatters of core can be buffed directly without becoming broken by Chrono shatters. They are likely to do a set of renaming for Mirage shatters with subtly different functions as well, to make it so they can directly buff or nerf each version of Mesmer without negatively impacting others. This would reduce the number of potential changes with each patch and allow them to focus their efforts. > > > > > > Example: Chrono is suffering, buff their shatters, instead of Mesmer traitlines, no longer risks breaking Core or Mirage. > > > > > > Another potential option is that of making skills that produce clones now work outside of combat, so we could actually start combat with clones, or generate them for various shatters without requiring a target (this is wishful thinking I am afraid... but possible). > > > > > > Good players will adapt, poor ones will cry (until a new popular build is found that is easy to play and strong). > > > > Its not about bringing change to the class or how hard or easy its gonna be, its about how the feel of class will be afterwards, and i think some of these changes are nerfing the feel heavily. > > Predetermining your reaction before having played it will invariably lead to merely bias when you do play it. It is going to be different, and significantly so, but someone will figure out how to play it right, share that playstyle and then the complaining will return to how other professions may be doing one thing or another that we used to do but “better”. That's not how it works, buddy. It's called predictive power. Using a combination of logic and experience, we can extrapolate from information to make predictions on how something will be. Once we saw that shatters wouldn't work without a clone, we deduce that all of the conveniences of having 0-shatter skills will be lost, and have countless experiences where that lost skill saved our lives. Tl;dr is never trust anyone who tells you not to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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