For the Love of God, Delete Mesmer Mantras!

shadowpass.4236 · September 23, 2019

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > People should stop coming up with convoluted yet nonsensical and incomplete suggestions like *"Stealth should nullify all damage modifiers on the player outside of boons. No more oneshots on any class from stealth. EZ"* and of course adding "EZ" to the end to pretend that they are smart, while of course ignoring that the first hit would put you out of stealth and thus you would do full damage anyway. In other words it would only work for single-hit heavy-hitters like deadeye.

> > >

> > > Second, targeting kitten like mantra of recovery, mantra of concentration and kitten sword autoattack is just unintelligent unless the entire thesis of the post is to ruin its own credibility.

> > >

> > > Third, it is sad that there even is a discussion to begin with, just delete mantra of pain and the prismatic understanding stealth extension, nobody above silver 2 has ever cared about or liked those.

> >

> > Then make it work like [Hidden Killer](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Killer) and have the damage modifier removal linger for 2 seconds out of stealth. This would solve the issue.

> >

> > You've probably missed a few metas or don't have the creativity or math skills to understand how effective those healing/utility/weapon skills are.

> >

> > 1. Mantra of Recovery has an incredible amount of healing on a short cooldown. It gives between 6555-10155 health on a 10 second cooldown with ZERO healing power investment that can proc on-heal runes frequently.

> Mantra of recovery has a absolutly bad heal/clic. And thoses clic = actions that you don't do to other things.

> > 2. Mantra of Concentration is a 15s cooldown double stun break that also gives other powerful boons.

> Mantra of concentration is a kitten speel who give less stab on activation than most other stab skills. Note that it only procure stab/bs that mean when you are under focus, it didn't help you at all because they will continue their focus on you.

> > 3. Mind Spike hitting for 7k just by autoattacking after stripping all of their boons with a shatter combo is usually more than enough to kill them.

> Mind spike hit for 7k on a zerk target under 25 vulnerability while mesmer is under 25 power and three moon are alignate.

> > 4. PU has always been busted. The entire Chaos traitline makes mesmers extremely difficult to kill. There are currently builds in ranked that allow mesmers to escape and reset fights every 30 seconds. They are nearly untouchable by power, condi, and ranged damage.

> Mesmer is not supposed to be killed by everyone and his grandma on 2 aoe faceroll click.

>

Mantra of Recovery's charges are instant cast. In other words, you can cast other skills while you're using them lol... Did you really not know this? Surprising.

Mantra of Concentration gives 7 stacks of stability on a 15 second cooldown lol... It's pretty strong. Without ANY boon duration, you can be immune to ccs for 11 seconds.

If you're playing a power mesmer build, your enemy will usually have 25 vulnerability and no boons if you strip them with your traited f2.

Mesmer is not killed by everyone. If you're dying as easily/quickly as you make it seem (and to every single thief you come across), you should try and improve at the game rather than complain about how weak mesmer is.

viquing.8254 · September 24, 2019

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > condi thief epidemic because we know how to fight against them.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for the laugh.

> > > > Ofc mantra mesmer win vs condi thief =) =) =) .

> > > > You are that skilled that you anticipate each instant teleport from out of LoS, teach me please because with only 18 sec cd and 30 sec cd condi clear and random from Auspicious anguish, a fail = death.

> > > > Not to say that once you get weakness you are useless.

> > > > That's what I said, there is that few good players so that mantra mesmer can proliferate and one shot everything. We can agree about the l2p issue then.

> > >

> > > You can react to the sword 2 teleport immobilize every single time if you look at when the nameplate disappears. Also, if you stand on the shadow return spot it makes it a lot harder for the thief to kite.

> > >

> > > Letting a thief use his sword 2 freely is probably why you have issues against them. Also, the instant I get condi bombed (if I don't evade it/Blurred Frenzy), I'll distort, swap to s/t, and torch 4 to cleanse 4 condis and stealth. Then, I can blink away, mass invis, go for a oneshot on the thief, or stand on a no-port spot if I want to counter the teleports.

> > >

> > > I can also just Mirror cancel the Lotus Training dodge to completely neuter the condi application for 2 seconds every 4 seconds.

> >

> > So what happen in real life :

> > - Once they saw you run a burst build, they will never stay in sight. Each time you stealth, they will teleport away (switching shortbow.) and you are far less mobile than a thief.

> > - They will engage you from out of LoS or with max stealth range.

> > - They have a way more spammable capacity on 2/evade than you have with your evade/2 sword.

> > - I'm not even mentionning plasma.

> > - 50 mirror uptime didn't exist since something like 4 seasons.

> >

> > And it's worst versus burst thieves who always hard counter zerk mes since day 1.

> >

> > That's the kind of thief I meet, not the type who get easy bursted and never look at you once they saw you are zerk. Again differents players.

> >

>

> What happens in real life (asides from everything I stated in the post you quoted...):

>

> 1. The thief will not chain defensives for 9 seconds while you wait in Mass Invis. Instead, he will leave and you can break combat by walking halfway across the map away from him.

That's what I said yes, he will leave you +1 on other point then come back when your stealth are on CD to either decap a point or kill you.

> 2. You can blink + diversion where the thief teleports to with shortbow 5 then blurred frenzy/distort because the thief will probably use steal in an attempt to interrupt the follow-up burst he "thinks" is coming. Etc. etc.

Usually blink didn't work pass 2 shortbow 5, you will be too far to melee instant burst so he will see the mirror blade cast.

> 3. **They cannot spam infiltrator's strike effectively if you stand on the return spot. L2P issue here. I've already stated how you can counter this ability. If you insist on ignoring my advice and let the thief freely S2 you from behind LoS, you deserve to die.**

If you can freely move on the return spot because the thief spam only infiltrator from the same spot you probably aren't facing good thieves.

> 4. You can kite out a plasma by stealthing or going on a no-port spot.

Yes and stealth, using blink or get decapped to kite plasma mean you didn't have it to burst later or lose precious map time.

> 5. I'm not talking about Mirror on dodge. I'm talking about the Mirror heal skill.

Which is on a 12 sec CD and have a duration equal to the cast time that basically mean he just have to wait the end of the cast.

> I've fought against several good thieves on NA with this build. They have years of experience on thief, I have hours of experience on mesmer. Read my post and watch the videos/clips of [Vallun](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1043468/#Comment_1043468) fighting me. This build is very easy to survive on. You can even see me landing a stealth burst on the engi in the second clip (while I was getting chased by Vallun) which he couldn't magically react to and evade like you and several others are making it seem.

Sorry but I never see a good +1 class on you after they see you are burst spec to make you useless all the game like it's the normal situation.

> Again, you refuse to take my advice on how to counter s/d thieves. I can survive against them pretty easily on core berserker mesmer, you should not be having so much difficulty.

I can survive bad player too and do 1vX versus pleb who eat bursts and ignore me.

viquing.8254 · September 24, 2019

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > > People should stop coming up with convoluted yet nonsensical and incomplete suggestions like *"Stealth should nullify all damage modifiers on the player outside of boons. No more oneshots on any class from stealth. EZ"* and of course adding "EZ" to the end to pretend that they are smart, while of course ignoring that the first hit would put you out of stealth and thus you would do full damage anyway. In other words it would only work for single-hit heavy-hitters like deadeye.

> > > >

> > > > Second, targeting kitten like mantra of recovery, mantra of concentration and kitten sword autoattack is just unintelligent unless the entire thesis of the post is to ruin its own credibility.

> > > >

> > > > Third, it is sad that there even is a discussion to begin with, just delete mantra of pain and the prismatic understanding stealth extension, nobody above silver 2 has ever cared about or liked those.

> > >

> > > Then make it work like [Hidden Killer](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Killer) and have the damage modifier removal linger for 2 seconds out of stealth. This would solve the issue.

> > >

> > > You've probably missed a few metas or don't have the creativity or math skills to understand how effective those healing/utility/weapon skills are.

> > >

> > > 1. Mantra of Recovery has an incredible amount of healing on a short cooldown. It gives between 6555-10155 health on a 10 second cooldown with ZERO healing power investment that can proc on-heal runes frequently.

> > Mantra of recovery has a absolutly bad heal/clic. And thoses clic = actions that you don't do to other things.

> > > 2. Mantra of Concentration is a 15s cooldown double stun break that also gives other powerful boons.

> > Mantra of concentration is a kitten speel who give less stab on activation than most other stab skills. Note that it only procure stab/bs that mean when you are under focus, it didn't help you at all because they will continue their focus on you.

> > > 3. Mind Spike hitting for 7k just by autoattacking after stripping all of their boons with a shatter combo is usually more than enough to kill them.

> > Mind spike hit for 7k on a zerk target under 25 vulnerability while mesmer is under 25 power and three moon are alignate.

> > > 4. PU has always been busted. The entire Chaos traitline makes mesmers extremely difficult to kill. There are currently builds in ranked that allow mesmers to escape and reset fights every 30 seconds. They are nearly untouchable by power, condi, and ranged damage.

> > Mesmer is not supposed to be killed by everyone and his grandma on 2 aoe faceroll click.

> >

>

> Mantra of Recovery's charges are instant cast. In other words, you can cast other skills while you're using them lol... Did you really not know this? Surprising.

Did you know that there is an attention difference between clicking recovery's charge and having warrior healing signet so you can concentrate to kite/map awarness or other thing ?

Did you know that you need either stab cover or steath each time you cast it because a half skilled player will never let you recharge this ?

Did you know that 3 clics to get 10k heal isn't that good ?

> Mantra of Concentration gives 7 stacks of stability on a 15 second cooldown lol... It's pretty strong. Without ANY boon duration, you can be immune to ccs for 11 seconds.

Mesmer don't need to be immune to CC but to go out of focus when temporizing.

Same as Mantra of recovery, you need to clic 3 time to get 7 sec whereas other class clic stab on higher CD then can focus on other thing.

> If you're playing a power mesmer build, your enemy will usually have 25 vulnerability and no boons if you strip them with your traited f2.

If you use F2 to strip boons, you need to reproc clones to F1 burst which is way more predictable for the opponent. If you wait more than 2 sec between F2 and F1, chances are high they reproc boons.

> Mesmer is not killed by everyone. If you're dying as easily/quickly as you make it seem (and to every single thief you come across), you should try and improve at the game rather than complain about how weak mesmer is.

If I die to every thief I meet I shouldn't be top 50.

If you are dying to every mantra mesmer you face, you should try to improve rather than complain how a build that was never show on EU at and only on top 50 ladder during off peak is op.

shadowpass.4236 · September 24, 2019

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> 1. That's what I said yes, he will leave you +1 on other point then come back when your stealth are on CD to either decap a point or kill you.

> 2. Usually blink didn't work pass 2 shortbow 5, you will be too far to melee instant burst so he will see the mirror blade cast.

> 3. If you can freely move on the return spot because the thief spam only infiltrator from the same spot you probably aren't facing good thieves.

> 4. Yes and stealth, using blink or get decapped to kite plasma mean you didn't have it to burst later or lose precious map time.

> 5. Which is on a 12 sec CD and have a duration equal to the cast time that basically mean he just have to wait the end of the cast.

> 6. Sorry but I never see a good +1 class on you after they see you are burst spec to make you useless all the game like it's the normal situation.

> 7. I can survive bad player too and do 1vX versus pleb who eat bursts and ignore me.

>

1. There are so many ways to deal with the thief. I do not have to stealth in order to survive getting jumped by one.

2. Your reaction time must be INSANELY slow if the quickest you can blink after the thief is after two whole Infiltrator's Arrows :joy: Not to mention they'll be completely out of initiative. What tier thieves are you fighting that double IA the second you go into stealth? LOL

3. If you can't reactively dodge the attack portion of Infiltrator's Strike, you probably don't have the skill level necessary to debate this topic properly.

4. Again, L2P issue. Why are you worried about getting decapped on a roaming build? Are you trying to side node with mantra mesmer? :joy:

5. Another L2P issue. You can cancel Mirror right before the cast time finishes to get the full reflect and it only puts the heal on a 4 second cooldown. I figured a mesmer main would know that.

6. I've had thieves attempt to "hunt me" all game because they knew I was on glass mesmer. Unfortunately for them, they ended up getting farmed.

7. Lol I had Vallun chasing me for two minutes on thief. He couldn't kill me until I was getting 3v1'd.

- https://clips.twitch.tv/DreamyCulturedWoodcockYouDontSay

- https://clips.twitch.tv/PatientCleanNarwhalTF2John

shadowpass.4236 · September 24, 2019

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> 1. Did you know that there is an attention difference between clicking recovery's charge and having warrior healing signet so you can concentrate to kite/map awarness or other thing ?

> 2. Did you know that you need either stab cover or steath each time you cast it because a half skilled player will never let you recharge this ?

> 3. Did you know that 3 clics to get 10k heal isn't that good ?

> 4. Mesmer don't need to be immune to CC but to go out of focus when temporizing.

> 5. Same as Mantra of recovery, you need to clic 3 time to get 7 sec whereas other class clic stab on higher CD then can focus on other thing.

> 6. If you use F2 to strip boons, you need to reproc clones to F1 burst which is way more predictable for the opponent. If you wait more than 2 sec between F2 and F1, chances are high they reproc boons.

> 7. If I die to every thief I meet I shouldn't be top 50.

> 8. If you are dying to every mantra mesmer you face, you should try to improve rather than complain how a build that was never show on EU at and only on top 50 ladder during off peak is op.

>

Edit: On a scale from 1-10, how difficult is it for you to chew gum and walk at the same time?

1. :joy:

2. My dude... you can blind/distort/daze/stun/immobilize and walk behind/super speed/etc. etc. in order to get a mantra channel off. It is _extremely_ easy to do on mesmer.

3. You're making me laugh lmao. Who cares how many clicks it takes?? MoR heals you for up to 10k health every 10 seconds. It's by far one of the strongest healing skills in the game.

4. _What?_

5. Please, _please_ tell me you're memeing me about the "focus" issue.

6. The mantra burst usually only shatters with one clone. If you strip boons with f2 in s/t, you can swap to gs and still do the full combo without an issue in _under_ 2 seconds.

7. Uh huh. I'm top 30 on core berserker mantra mesmer even though I have barely any prior experience on it. I also place top 30 on EU with 120-180 ping.

8. I don't. However, the fact is that a properly executed mantra burst is impossible to avoid. As an experienced player, instantly dying to something with absolutely zero tells is frustrating. Again, that reinforces my point that no one on EU can play the build properly. Mantra mesmers have consistently been in the top 10 on NA every season. It's extremely efficient at farming ranked.

Quadox.7834 · September 24, 2019

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > 1. Did you know that there is an attention difference between clicking recovery's charge and having warrior healing signet so you can concentrate to kite/map awarness or other thing ?

> > 2. Did you know that you need either stab cover or steath each time you cast it because a half skilled player will never let you recharge this ?

> > 3. Did you know that 3 clics to get 10k heal isn't that good ?

> > 4. Mesmer don't need to be immune to CC but to go out of focus when temporizing.

> > 5. Same as Mantra of recovery, you need to clic 3 time to get 7 sec whereas other class clic stab on higher CD then can focus on other thing.

> > 6. If you use F2 to strip boons, you need to reproc clones to F1 burst which is way more predictable for the opponent. If you wait more than 2 sec between F2 and F1, chances are high they reproc boons.

> > 7. If I die to every thief I meet I shouldn't be top 50.

> > 8. If you are dying to every mantra mesmer you face, you should try to improve rather than complain how a build that was never show on EU at and only on top 50 ladder during off peak is op.

> >

>

> Edit: On a scale from 1-10, how difficult is it for you to chew gum and walk at the same time?

>

> 1. :joy:

> 2. My dude... you can blind/distort/daze/stun/immobilize and walk behind/super speed/etc. etc. in order to get a mantra channel off. It is _extremely_ easy to do on mesmer.

> 3. You're making me laugh lmao. Who cares how many clicks it takes?? MoR heals you for up to 10k health every 10 seconds. It's by far one of the strongest healing skills in the game.

> 4. _What?_

> 5. Please, _please_ tell me you're memeing me about the "focus" issue.

> 6. The mantra burst usually only shatters with one clone. If you strip boons with f2 in s/t, you can swap to gs and still do the full combo without an issue in _under_ 2 seconds.

> 7. Uh huh. I'm top 30 on core berserker mantra mesmer even though I have barely any prior experience on it. I also place top 30 on EU with 120-180 ping.

> 8. I don't. However, the fact is that a properly executed mantra burst is impossible to avoid. As an experienced player, instantly dying to something with absolutely zero tells is frustrating. Again, that reinforces my point that no one on EU can play the build properly. Mantra mesmers have consistently been in the top 10 on NA every season. It's extremely efficient at farming ranked.

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > People should stop coming up with convoluted yet nonsensical and incomplete suggestions like *"Stealth should nullify all damage modifiers on the player outside of boons. No more oneshots on any class from stealth. EZ"* and of course adding "EZ" to the end to pretend that they are smart, while of course ignoring that the first hit would put you out of stealth and thus you would do full damage anyway. In other words it would only work for single-hit heavy-hitters like deadeye.

> >

> > Second, targeting kitten like mantra of recovery, mantra of concentration and kitten sword autoattack is just unintelligent unless the entire thesis of the post is to ruin its own credibility.

> >

> > Third, it is sad that there even is a discussion to begin with, just delete mantra of pain and the prismatic understanding stealth extension, nobody above silver 2 has ever cared about or liked those.

>

> 'nonsensical and incomplete suggestions??'

>

> -Only in Guild Wars 2-

>

Is there anything you disagree with?

Quadox.7834 · September 24, 2019

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > People should stop coming up with convoluted yet nonsensical and incomplete suggestions like *"Stealth should nullify all damage modifiers on the player outside of boons. No more oneshots on any class from stealth. EZ"* and of course adding "EZ" to the end to pretend that they are smart, while of course ignoring that the first hit would put you out of stealth and thus you would do full damage anyway. In other words it would only work for single-hit heavy-hitters like deadeye.

> >

> > Second, targeting kitten like mantra of recovery, mantra of concentration and kitten sword autoattack is just unintelligent unless the entire thesis of the post is to ruin its own credibility.

> >

> > Third, it is sad that there even is a discussion to begin with, just delete mantra of pain and the prismatic understanding stealth extension, nobody above silver 2 has ever cared about or liked those.

>

> Then make it work like [Hidden Killer](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Killer) and have the damage modifier removal linger for 2 seconds out of stealth. This would solve the issue.

>

> You've probably missed a few metas or don't have the creativity or math skills to understand how effective those healing/utility/weapon skills are.

>

> 1. Mantra of Recovery has an incredible amount of healing on a short cooldown. It gives between 6555-10155 health on a 10 second cooldown with ZERO healing power investment that can proc on-heal runes frequently.

> 2. Mantra of Concentration is a 15s cooldown double stun break that also gives other powerful boons.

> 3. Mind Spike hitting for 7k just by autoattacking after stripping all of their boons with a shatter combo is usually more than enough to kill them.

> 4. PU has always been busted. The entire Chaos traitline makes mesmers extremely difficult to kill. There are currently builds in ranked that allow mesmers to escape and reset fights every 30 seconds. They are nearly untouchable by power, condi, and ranged damage.

1-3) Zzz

4) More accurately stealth is busted, people have complained for years but since we seem stuck with it, removing PU stealth extension is better than nothing, and something I wanted since its current form from 2015.

5) Do you have match videos/stream (from your perspective, not clips)?

Ysmir.4986 · September 24, 2019

I honestly think that gw2 should have an Armory system like in WoW.

Everytime I see a thread like this, I'm just baffled because I think to myself "Wait a second, those one trick pony builds are widely known to be gimmicky trash that people only play in unranked because that's the only place they can make them work."

And then I come to the conclusion that people crying about stuff like that are probably the same people stuck in s3/g1 that think that playing thief with no stunbreak and shadow signet ("need that mobility and the 10 stacks of vulnerability are value bruh") is viable and get upset when they are faced with a build that was actually designed by people that know their shit. But I really would like to support that theory with facts. *sigh*

What's more problematic with threads like this is that they displace the real balancing issues. Most of them know those already but lets recap them:

- Firebrand support capabilities and the FB+Scourge duo,

- Mirage still exists (great idea to have a class that can cast skills while dodging),

- Holosmith is overtuned in terms of damage and sustain,

- Build variety is and keeps being neutered by power creep and baffling design decisions. Chronomancer is semi viable? Let's dump it in the garbage bin. Druid? *Poof* gone. You liked playing d/p roamer thief? Too bad, only s/d for you now! Not to mention some specs that were never viable in pvp to begin with *ahem Renegade ahem*.

- Again power creep. At this point everything is so fast in terms of dishing out damage, the game has degenerated in ways that it hasn't before. You would need to tone EVERYTHING down.

Let's just focus on stuff that's really important and stop crying whenever you get killed by a meme build because you're wood tier.

shadowpass.4236 · September 24, 2019

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > People should stop coming up with convoluted yet nonsensical and incomplete suggestions like *"Stealth should nullify all damage modifiers on the player outside of boons. No more oneshots on any class from stealth. EZ"* and of course adding "EZ" to the end to pretend that they are smart, while of course ignoring that the first hit would put you out of stealth and thus you would do full damage anyway. In other words it would only work for single-hit heavy-hitters like deadeye.

> > >

> > > Second, targeting kitten like mantra of recovery, mantra of concentration and kitten sword autoattack is just unintelligent unless the entire thesis of the post is to ruin its own credibility.

> > >

> > > Third, it is sad that there even is a discussion to begin with, just delete mantra of pain and the prismatic understanding stealth extension, nobody above silver 2 has ever cared about or liked those.

> >

> > Then make it work like [Hidden Killer](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Killer) and have the damage modifier removal linger for 2 seconds out of stealth. This would solve the issue.

> >

> > You've probably missed a few metas or don't have the creativity or math skills to understand how effective those healing/utility/weapon skills are.

> >

> > 1. Mantra of Recovery has an incredible amount of healing on a short cooldown. It gives between 6555-10155 health on a 10 second cooldown with ZERO healing power investment that can proc on-heal runes frequently.

> > 2. Mantra of Concentration is a 15s cooldown double stun break that also gives other powerful boons.

> > 3. Mind Spike hitting for 7k just by autoattacking after stripping all of their boons with a shatter combo is usually more than enough to kill them.

> > 4. PU has always been busted. The entire Chaos traitline makes mesmers extremely difficult to kill. There are currently builds in ranked that allow mesmers to escape and reset fights every 30 seconds. They are nearly untouchable by power, condi, and ranged damage.

>

> 1-3) Zzz

> 4) More accurately stealth is busted, people have complained for years but since we seem stuck with it, removing PU stealth extension is better than nothing, and something I wanted since its current form from 2015.

> 5) Do you have match videos/stream (from your perspective, not clips)?

All of my old vod footage was blocked on youtube because the music was copywritten. I can record ranked gameplay this weekend on the mantra build and upload it if I have time.

shadowpass.4236 · September 24, 2019

> @"Ysmir.4986" said:

> I honestly think that gw2 should have an Armory system like in WoW.

>

> Everytime I see a thread like this, I'm just baffled because I think to myself "Wait a second, those one trick pony builds are widely known to be gimmicky trash that people only play in unranked because that's the only place they can make them work."

>

> And then I come to the conclusion that people crying about stuff like that are probably the same people stuck in s3/g1 that think that playing thief with no stunbreak and shadow signet ("need that mobility and the 10 stacks of vulnerability are value bruh") is viable and get upset when they are faced with a build that was actually designed by people that know their kitten. But I really would like to support that theory with facts. *sigh*

>

> What's more problematic with threads like this is that they displace the real balancing issues. Most of them know those already but lets recap them:

> - Firebrand support capabilities and the FB+Scourge duo,

> - Mirage still exists (great idea to have a class that can cast skills while dodging),

> - Holosmith is overtuned in terms of damage and sustain,

> - Build variety is and keeps being neutered by power creep and baffling design decisions. Chronomancer is semi viable? Let's dump it in the garbage bin. Druid? *Poof* gone. You liked playing d/p roamer thief? Too bad, only s/d for you now! Not to mention some specs that were never viable in pvp to begin with *ahem Renegade ahem*.

> - Again power creep. At this point everything is so fast in terms of dishing out damage, the game has degenerated in ways that it hasn't before. You would need to tone EVERYTHING down.

>

> Let's just focus on stuff that's really important and stop crying whenever you get killed by a meme build because you're wood tier.

Everytime I see a response like this, I'm just baffled because I think to myself, "Wait a second, builds like mantra mesmer are widely known to be perfectly viable in high tier games because you can oneshot/force multiple defensive cooldowns in an AoE every 12 seconds."

And then I come to the conclusion that people defending stuff like this are probably the same people stuck in s3/g1 that think your average plat 2-3 player can actually stand a chance against the 15 people on both NA and EU that actually know what they're doing. If you don't have any experience fighting against the handful of top tier players still left in the game, don't come into these threads downplaying the build's strength. Unfortunately, this build is easy enough for a bronze player to pick up and play effectively in plat 3 as long as he knows the correct way to set up the burst. Regardless, there have been mantra mesmers in the top 10 every season since the game was alive and the leaderboards were first introduced. If you want see some facts, check out:

1. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1043468/#Comment_1043468

2. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1047448/#Comment_1047448

I have more that I can upload later today. You can even see the screenshot of the leaderboards I've linked with Mur sitting at rank 2 on mantra mesmer.

Erzian.5218 · September 24, 2019

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Erzian.5218" said:

> > Now, I am really confused... why you are telling me this? My point was that the claim that nobody in EU can figure out how to play a build is a silly claim. It's like saying nobody on NA can play a proper holo/rev/whatever.

>

> That's why I told you to reread what I wrote. You missed my point.

>

> I understand it's a silly claim. I was just mimicking the responses I get when people say stupid stuff like:

>

> 1. Mantra mesmer doesn't work at a high level. Must be an NA only issue hurr durr.

> 2. Condi thieves are so busted hurr durr.

> 3. etc. etc.

>

> Clearly, the common consensus from the EU forum-goers is that mantra mesmer is not an issue there. Why? Well, they say they never see them because they're all stuck in gold 2 because miraculously every single player above that threshold can reactively dodge a thief using steal from stealth (a.k.a. mantra burst). Mantra mesmer has been PROVEN to work at a high level for years. The fact that there are quote unquote, "zero" mantra mesmers that can pull it off at a high level on EU must mean that none of you can play it correctly. Right?

It is true though, that there are very few mantra Mesmers on EU and that is certainly not because nobody can figure out how to play it. The build is playable (and I have seen some people play it) but it seems that other builds have more game impact/can carry games harder in the EU metagame, e.g. sb, holo and on higher levels rev as well, thus see more play. The build might be unfun design (like so many builds) but currently does not overperform in EU, which is why many people here disagree with your opinion.

Perhaps the meta game is just more hostile towards the build or the average match quality is higher, which changes how individual builds perform.

shadowpass.4236 · September 24, 2019

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> 1 - check OP history.

> 2 - compile a list of mesmer skills/traits that he asked to get nerfed.

> 3 - laugh

> 4 - realize you're wasting your time arguing with him.

1 - check your history.

2 - compile a list of mesmer skills/traits that he defends with absolutely no substance in any of his arguments.

3 - laugh

4 - realize I'm wasting my time arguing with him

When you have something to actually contribute to any of the threads you posts on, please, do feel free to share. Until then, stop trying to derail everything because you don't have anything actually meaningful to add.

shadowpass.4236 · September 24, 2019

> @"Erzian.5218" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"Erzian.5218" said:

> > > Now, I am really confused... why you are telling me this? My point was that the claim that nobody in EU can figure out how to play a build is a silly claim. It's like saying nobody on NA can play a proper holo/rev/whatever.

> >

> > That's why I told you to reread what I wrote. You missed my point.

> >

> > I understand it's a silly claim. I was just mimicking the responses I get when people say stupid stuff like:

> >

> > 1. Mantra mesmer doesn't work at a high level. Must be an NA only issue hurr durr.

> > 2. Condi thieves are so busted hurr durr.

> > 3. etc. etc.

> >

> > Clearly, the common consensus from the EU forum-goers is that mantra mesmer is not an issue there. Why? Well, they say they never see them because they're all stuck in gold 2 because miraculously every single player above that threshold can reactively dodge a thief using steal from stealth (a.k.a. mantra burst). Mantra mesmer has been PROVEN to work at a high level for years. The fact that there are quote unquote, "zero" mantra mesmers that can pull it off at a high level on EU must mean that none of you can play it correctly. Right?

>

> It is true though, that there are very few mantra Mesmers on EU and that is certainly not because nobody can figure out how to play it. The build is playable (and I have seen some people play it) but it seems that other builds have more game impact/can carry games harder in the EU metagame, e.g. sb, holo and on higher levels rev as well, thus see more play. The build might be unfun design (like so many builds) but currently does not overperform in EU, which is why many people here disagree with your opinion.

> Perhaps the meta game is just more hostile towards the build or the average match quality is higher, which changes how individual builds perform.

>

Rev isn't good anymore. There's like two or three people on NA that can play it effectively. But, it's not as hard of a carry as it used to be.

Tools holo is busted because it can snowball easily. That's the same problem mantra mesmer has. The frequency of the kills you can get on mantra mesmer match the current fotm busted spec if the person playing it can consistently land the burst (which is as easy as landing a steal from stealth).

Again, I will reiterate the fact that the skill levels on NA and EU are the same. I've placed highly, consistently, in both regions. There are actually less high tier players on EU than NA. However, there are more plat players on EU so the match maker seems better.

Erzian.5218 · September 24, 2019

Skill level might be the same on average but that doesn’t help when there aren’t enough players of roughly the same level available to make a match. It still shifts how effective builds are. It’s similar to EU prime time vs night queues.

Holo is busted because it offers a lot more than just damage and because of that, it can fill multiple roles effectively, which mantra Mesmer cannot.

Again, if it was truly broken, it would see a **lot of play in both regions**, which it doesn’t, so reiterating “the build is really broken but all you guys cannot see it because you are not on NA” in different words doesn’t make sense.

edit:

Or in different words: What is more likely?

a) The build overperforms in general but only the smaller region can see it.

b) The build overperforms under specific circumstances, which is why it's popular on NA but not on EU.

edit2: Should your actual argument be "one shots are silly/shouldn't exist" (compared to "mantra mes is too strong"), then there is no point for me to argue, as that is subjective and simply depends on personal preferences.

Burnfall.9573 · September 24, 2019

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > 1. Did you know that there is an attention difference between clicking recovery's charge and having warrior healing signet so you can concentrate to kite/map awarness or other thing ?

> > > 2. Did you know that you need either stab cover or steath each time you cast it because a half skilled player will never let you recharge this ?

> > > 3. Did you know that 3 clics to get 10k heal isn't that good ?

> > > 4. Mesmer don't need to be immune to CC but to go out of focus when temporizing.

> > > 5. Same as Mantra of recovery, you need to clic 3 time to get 7 sec whereas other class clic stab on higher CD then can focus on other thing.

> > > 6. If you use F2 to strip boons, you need to reproc clones to F1 burst which is way more predictable for the opponent. If you wait more than 2 sec between F2 and F1, chances are high they reproc boons.

> > > 7. If I die to every thief I meet I shouldn't be top 50.

> > > 8. If you are dying to every mantra mesmer you face, you should try to improve rather than complain how a build that was never show on EU at and only on top 50 ladder during off peak is op.

> > >

> >

> > Edit: On a scale from 1-10, how difficult is it for you to chew gum and walk at the same time?

> >

> > 1. :joy:

> > 2. My dude... you can blind/distort/daze/stun/immobilize and walk behind/super speed/etc. etc. in order to get a mantra channel off. It is _extremely_ easy to do on mesmer.

> > 3. You're making me laugh lmao. Who cares how many clicks it takes?? MoR heals you for up to 10k health every 10 seconds. It's by far one of the strongest healing skills in the game.

> > 4. _What?_

> > 5. Please, _please_ tell me you're memeing me about the "focus" issue.

> > 6. The mantra burst usually only shatters with one clone. If you strip boons with f2 in s/t, you can swap to gs and still do the full combo without an issue in _under_ 2 seconds.

> > 7. Uh huh. I'm top 30 on core berserker mantra mesmer even though I have barely any prior experience on it. I also place top 30 on EU with 120-180 ping.

> > 8. I don't. However, the fact is that a properly executed mantra burst is impossible to avoid. As an experienced player, instantly dying to something with absolutely zero tells is frustrating. Again, that reinforces my point that no one on EU can play the build properly. Mantra mesmers have consistently been in the top 10 on NA every season. It's extremely efficient at farming ranked.

>

> > @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > People should stop coming up with convoluted yet nonsensical and incomplete suggestions like *"Stealth should nullify all damage modifiers on the player outside of boons. No more oneshots on any class from stealth. EZ"* and of course adding "EZ" to the end to pretend that they are smart, while of course ignoring that the first hit would put you out of stealth and thus you would do full damage anyway. In other words it would only work for single-hit heavy-hitters like deadeye.

> > >

> > > Second, targeting kitten like mantra of recovery, mantra of concentration and kitten sword autoattack is just unintelligent unless the entire thesis of the post is to ruin its own credibility.

> > >

> > > Third, it is sad that there even is a discussion to begin with, just delete mantra of pain and the prismatic understanding stealth extension, nobody above silver 2 has ever cared about or liked those.

> >

> > 'nonsensical and incomplete suggestions??'

> >

> > -Only in Guild Wars 2-

> >

>

> Is there anything you disagree with?

For the past 8 years; nothing changed

So nothing to disagree with

viquing.8254 · September 24, 2019

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > 1. That's what I said yes, he will leave you +1 on other point then come back when your stealth are on CD to either decap a point or kill you.

> > 2. Usually blink didn't work pass 2 shortbow 5, you will be too far to melee instant burst so he will see the mirror blade cast.

> > 3. If you can freely move on the return spot because the thief spam only infiltrator from the same spot you probably aren't facing good thieves.

> > 4. Yes and stealth, using blink or get decapped to kite plasma mean you didn't have it to burst later or lose precious map time.

> > 5. Which is on a 12 sec CD and have a duration equal to the cast time that basically mean he just have to wait the end of the cast.

> > 6. Sorry but I never see a good +1 class on you after they see you are burst spec to make you useless all the game like it's the normal situation.

> > 7. I can survive bad player too and do 1vX versus pleb who eat bursts and ignore me.

> >

>

> 1. There are so many ways to deal with the thief. I do not have to stealth in order to survive getting jumped by one.

So they are bad.

> 2. Your reaction time must be INSANELY slow if the quickest you can blink after the thief is after two whole Infiltrator's Arrows :joy: Not to mention they'll be completely out of initiative. What tier thieves are you fighting that double IA the second you go into stealth? LOL

You play a build that require some setup to one shot, you will never one shot a half decent thief with blink->burst where he can see you.

> 3. If you can't reactively dodge the attack portion of Infiltrator's Strike, you probably don't have the skill level necessary to debate this topic properly.

I can on bad thiefs too, you know the same as you meet.

> 4. Again, L2P issue. Why are you worried about getting decapped on a roaming build? Are you trying to side node with mantra mesmer? :joy:

So you admit being weakier than other roaming build ? :joy:

> 5. Another L2P issue. You can cancel Mirror right before the cast time finishes to get the full reflect and it only puts the heal on a 4 second cooldown. I figured a mesmer main would know that.

Then you didn't get the full reflect duration **and** cases where it's better to delay the heal aren't many. Not saying that a thief will not projectile evade while you reflect but aoe shortbow or melee.

> 6. I've had thieves attempt to "hunt me" all game because they knew I was on glass mesmer. Unfortunately for them, they ended up getting farmed.

Again you never meet good player, should be thief or rev.

> 7. Lol I had Vallun chasing me for two minutes on thief. He couldn't kill me until I was getting 3v1'd.

> - https://clips.twitch.tv/DreamyCulturedWoodcockYouDontSay

> - https://clips.twitch.tv/PatientCleanNarwhalTF2John

He is on a 1v1 melee build on one of the worst chase ability on thief build, hopefully you can run away and kite.

viquing.8254 · September 24, 2019