Class and build counter list?

[raistlinx.4906]

Is there a general list somewhere of what classes and builds more easily counter others and in turn which match-ups you should avoid, especially if new? I've been trying out other classes and build this season but I haven't been able to find anything other than an odd note here and there. I know a lot comes down to individual player skill but some guidelines would be helpful.

[birdboy.6509]

I'd like to help, but could you be a little more specific?

If I was to list every class and every matchup there would be like 64 matchups to cover and thats assuming each class took only one build.

[raistlinx.4906]

I was really asking if there was a website, general help guide, etc, somewhere already out there for newer players that covered match-ups generally and what to avoid, etc that anyone new about. Playing lower ranked you come across all sorts of builds that aren't found on a site like meta-battle and it would be good to just have some general guidelines for new players to know whether to engage in a 1v1 or not based on the class they are playing. I was hoping there might be something like that already in existence.

 

[Stallic.2397]

Who knows if this is right, but from my experience:

 

Thieves counter necros and mesmers

Weavers counter thieves

Holos and Warriors counter weavers

Mesmers and Necros counter holos and warriors

 

That's very general. Assuming everyone is equal skill. General rule is, if you know your class very well, you can at least climb to gold while beating everything you come across.

[FitzChevalerie.1035]

Would be easier to help you knowing what build you play.

 

Cause in general, it depends on builds more than class.

You wont play the same against a tempest as youd play against a FA even though they are the same "class"

[birdboy.6509]

> @"raistlinx.4906" said:

> I was really asking if there was a website, general help guide, etc, somewhere already out there for newer players that covered match-ups generally and what to avoid, etc that anyone new about. Playing lower ranked you come across all sorts of builds that aren't found on a site like meta-battle and it would be good to just have some general guidelines for new players to know whether to engage in a 1v1 or not based on the class they are playing. I was hoping there might be something like that already in existence.

>

 

Sorry I don't know of anything like that. There's definitely a lot to learn when you first start playing, but since the meta is constantly evolving and changing there's no be-all end-all guide.

If I were you I would go to the class specific PvP forums and post questions you have there, or PM notable players in game.

 

[raistlinx.4906]

> @"Stallic.2397" said:

> Who knows if this is right, but from my experience:

>

> Thieves counter necros and mesmers

> Weavers counter thieves

> Holos and Warriors counter weavers

> Mesmers and Necros counter holos and warriors

>

> That's very general. Assuming everyone is equal skill. General rule is, if you know your class very well, you can at least climb to gold while beating everything you come across.

 

Yes something that general is a good start. I know a lot of people will want to go down to the specific, but something like this is good for beginners. Then once they settle on a class they can learn more specifics for that class.

 

I may have poorly phrased my initial post. The spirit of what I was really thinking about was a situation where a new player is leaning to play class x and are capping a point for example, they see class y coming to contest and they need to decide to stay and 1v1 or rotate off and find something favorable. Typically you have no idea about player y so "all things are equal" in the end.

[Ragnar.4257]

> @"raistlinx.4906" said:

> > @"Stallic.2397" said:

> > Who knows if this is right, but from my experience:

> >

> > Thieves counter necros and mesmers

> > Weavers counter thieves

> > Holos and Warriors counter weavers

> > Mesmers and Necros counter holos and warriors

> >

> > That's very general. Assuming everyone is equal skill. General rule is, if you know your class very well, you can at least climb to gold while beating everything you come across.

>

> Yes something that general is a good start. I know a lot of people will want to go down to the specific, but something like this is good for beginners. Then once they settle on a class they can learn more specifics for that class.

>

> I may have poorly phrased my initial post. The spirit of what I was really thinking about was a situation where a new player is leaning to play class x and are capping a point for example, they see class y coming to contest and they need to decide to stay and 1v1 or rotate off and find something favorable. Typically you have no idea about player y so "all things are equal" in the end.

 

It depends on build though.

 

The post you quoted said that Weaver counters Thief. This is true if the weaver is playing a sustainy Sword build. But it is totally the other way around if the Weaver is playing a glassy FA Sceptre build, Thief counters Weaver in this scenario.

 

I know you don't want to hear "it's complicated"...... but it is. If you want a simple answer, it will be a flat-out wrong answer. If you're playing Thief and you see a Weaver coming towards you, it isn't good enough to just say "okay, that's a weaver, I should do x/y/z", because depending on your build and their build, the answer is totally different.

[raistlinx.4906]

No, it has nothing to do with me not wanting to hear something. I completely understand there is a lot of nuance and detail when you want to get to the "right" answer ever time. With generalization you are willing to accept some error for general guidelines.

[raistlinx.4906]

> @"birdboy.6509" said:

> > @"raistlinx.4906" said:

> > I was really asking if there was a website, general help guide, etc, somewhere already out there for newer players that covered match-ups generally and what to avoid, etc that anyone new about. Playing lower ranked you come across all sorts of builds that aren't found on a site like meta-battle and it would be good to just have some general guidelines for new players to know whether to engage in a 1v1 or not based on the class they are playing. I was hoping there might be something like that already in existence.

> >

>

> Sorry I don't know of anything like that. There's definitely a lot to learn when you first start playing, but since the meta is constantly evolving and changing there's no be-all end-all guide.

> If I were you I would go to the class specific PvP forums and post questions you have there, or PM notable players in game.

>

 

Thanks, I couldn't find anything with my searches either so you're probably right about having to go to the specific class pages.

[Heng Rai.4826]

I think if you understand your build (not just class) then you should know what counters you and who you counter in those regards

 

For example, if you don’t have a lot of condi cleanse then obviously you should avoid scourge (or any condi build in general). If you can’t maintain a reasonable stability uptime then warrior and holo might give you a hard time. And if you are glassy then power thief and Mesmer (or any power build class) could be your nightmare and so on.

 

Then again it comes down to your skill and experience. Try to avoid direct match up with those who counter you is generally a good practice in PVP. I don’t think there’s any shame in running away from a fight if you know you gonna lose (though you may get abused by other players from time to time).

 

Good luck

[ZhouX.8742]

asking this in the forums will basically get you bias lists from players and by the end of it you'll look at those lists from everybody and say "everything is busted but everything also counters everything" and have accomplished nothing

 

look at past mAT matches of top teams (even though theyre boring and usually landslides esp on NA) on youtube see the point interactions - how the classes are played - what each teams are doing, _**message somebody from top 5 in game and get some info from them**_, begin multi-classing too to understand class weaknesses

[saerni.2584]

> @"raistlinx.4906" said:

> Is there a general list somewhere of what classes and builds more easily counter others and in turn which match-ups you should avoid, especially if new? I've been trying out other classes and build this season but I haven't been able to find anything other than an odd note here and there. I know a lot comes down to individual player skill but some guidelines would be helpful.

 

No website but I’ll take a general shot in the dark:

 

Builds in GW2 fulfill specific roles in PvP.

 

Broadly speaking:

* Bunker

* Brawler

* Support

* DPS

 

None of those can individually win a game. Its a team game after all. It’s more important to understand what your build is meant to do, and then focus on getting personally better at doing what you need to do.

 

When it comes to 1v1, you are primarily interested in Brawlers (also referred to as “side-noders”) because most DPS/Support/Bunkers are in team fights where individual match ups matter less or holding nodes solo where the goal isn’t to win the 1v1 so much as stalemate.

 

If you are a brawler then you take 1v1s and hope to either win or hold longer enough to get support from DPS or Support. You, generally, want to take fights against builds with lower sustain than you because your goal is to knock down as many of their defensive cooldowns for a quick decisive final blow, ideally from a DPS plus one.

 

This, however, depends on whether the opponent is condi/power based and how that interacts with your own build. If your build has trouble dealing with conditions then that is likely a matchup where you have lower sustain than your condition based opponent. If your opponent is projectile based and you have lots of reflects, you have automatically become much better positioned to 1v1 them.

 

As to specific builds, it’s hard to create a list that is both comprehensive enough to cover what they could be running and succinct enough to not confuse everyone reading it. Ultimately, people learn best by playing rather than reading about playing, which some posters have alluded to above.

 

If you are NA and want help, feel free to friend me in game and message me. I’m always happy to help you figure things out.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

generally speaking:

 

power builds counter most bunkers and some condi builds.

condi builds counter most power builds and some bunker builds.

bunker builds counter some of everyone but generally exist to stall long enough for a buddy to show up.

hard cc counters low stun breaks/ stability.

soft cc counters melee builds with low cleanse.

high heals counters low average dps (auto attacks).

blocks/ evades counter burst builds.

weakness counters power builds.

high cleanse counters condi builds.

range with mobility counters melee.

melee with mobility counters ranged.

 

[Bast.7253]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> generally speaking:

>

> power builds counter most bunkers and some condi builds.

> condi builds counter most power builds and some bunker builds.

> bunker builds counter some of everyone but generally exist to stall long enough for a buddy to show up.

> hard cc counters low stun breaks/ stability.

> soft cc counters melee builds with low cleanse.

> high heals counters low average dps (auto attacks).

> blocks/ evades counter burst builds.

> weakness counters power builds.

> high cleanse counters condi builds.

> range with mobility counters melee.

> melee with mobility counters ranged.

>

 

What this guy says.

 

So basically just play holo since they do pretty much everything.

[raistlinx.4906]

Thanks to all that offered some generalizations. It helps give me a starting point to look at some of the classes I am playing and start to think about what classes/builds I would avoid match ups with.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

means it counters >

means it gets countered by <

Double >> or << means hard counter

= balanced match

 

Speaking on behalf of Ranger and considering all of the Ranger specs mentioned are power based:

 

Core Ranger = Warrior/Berserker/Spellbreaker

Core Ranger > Burst Guardians/Dragonhunters

Core Ranger < Any Burn Guardian/Dragonhunter/Firebrand

Core Ranger = Support Firebrand

Core Ranger > Power Herald

Core Ranger < Condi Herald

Core Ranger = Other Ranger based specs for the most part, but a well played Druid can still counter it

Core Ranger < Holosaiyan

Core Ranger >> All power based Thief specs

Core Ranger << Condi DrD

Core Ranger > Power based Mesmer specs, all of them

Core Ranger << Condi based Mesmer specs, all of them

Core Ranger > All Necromancer specs

Core Ranger = Power based Elementalist specs

Core Ranger < Condi based Elementalist specs

~ Summary: Core Power Ranger gets countered by condi play but is very strong against power play, only exception being Holosaiyan.

~ Summary: The weakness of Core Ranger is that it lacks the mobility/disengage that Druid or Soulbeast has. It has trouble when caught 1v2.

 

Druid > Berserker

Druid = Warrior

Druid << Spellbreaker

Druid >> Burst/Burn Core Guardians and Dragonhunters

Druid = Support & Burn FB

Druid = Power & Condi Heralds

Druid > Actually still ultimately counters all over Ranger specs

Druid > Power based Thief specs

Druid < Condi DrD

Druid << Holosaiyan

Druid > All Necromancers

Druid > Power based Mesmers, all of them

Druid < Will eventually lose to well played condi Mirage, but still fairs well against condi Mesmer/Chrono

Druid = Elementalist builds

~ Summary: Druid is hard countered by reveal & heavy CC, but can otherwise survive 1v1 against everything else, though it now lacks damage.

 

DPS Soulbeast > Core Warrior/Berserker

DPS Soulbeast = Spellbreaker

DPS Soulbeast = Burst & Burn Core Guards & Dragonhunters

DPS Soulbeast >> Support FB

DPS Soulbeast = Condi FB

DPS Soulbeast << Power Heralds

DPS Soulbeast = Condi Heralds

DPS Soulbeast = Core Ranger

DPS Soulbeast < Well played Druid

DPS Soulbeast << Condi DrD

DPS Soulbeast >> Power based Thief specs

DPS Soulbeast = Holosaiyan

DPS Soulbeast >> All Necromancers.

DPS Soulbeast = Power based Mesmer specs

DPS Soulbeast < Condi based Mesmer specs

DPS Soulbeast > All elementalist specs

~ Summary: DPS Soulbeast is countered by heavy condi and/or things with very heavy chase potential. But nothing rocks heavier damage burst.

 

Scrapper not mentioned because only like 2 people in NA can play it to viability.

[Eurantien.4632]

And then if you take @"Trevor Boyer.6524" 's list and then insert individual player names on those same specs things can still swap all over the place.

 

IMO, For example: (Ranger > power Mesmer) << Zeromis (a power Mesmer)

So like others said it can be complicated.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> And then if you take @"Trevor Boyer.6524" 's list and then insert individual player names on those same specs things can still swap all over the place.

>

> IMO, For example: (Ranger > power Mesmer) << Zeromis (a power Mesmer)

> So like others said it can be complicated.

 

Indeed it can.

 

Good example is Naru on Necro doing a great job of = Soulbeast.

 

Guy can LoS on a Necro better than a cockroach can LoS the daylight.

[Khalisto.5780]

best thing is learn very well your own build, them you'll find what builds you can play against or not

 

Like I played a lot of warriors

 

So I know mesmer are my hard counters, specially the pistol ones

 

Necros are also annoying, but I still can beat em with some effort, same for condi thieves

 

Every other match up is a skill match up, the best player mechanically wins

 

I don't remember a match up I win easily as a warrior

 

Elementalist

 

I feel I have no hard counters, prolly because I played more than 1k matches as elementalist

 

hardest match ups are against confusion builds, but still winnable

 

I feel I win all other match ups with certain ease

 

Maybe reapers annoy me the most as they keep getting the second life pool and stability with it

 

Matches I just win when the player is bad are against scrapper and water weaver, and some support tempest. But I dont lose, I just fight em to def the node, otherwise I domt even get in a fight

 

The only counter I play is not against a specific build, is against an specific comp, I play thief when I see a lot of necros, scrappers and guardians, my mobility puts me in such an advantage that most of the time I don't need to win duels in order to have great impact in the game, I just have to rotate around and cap/ decap and +1 fights

 

 

[Itz Jay.8941]

> @"raistlinx.4906" said:

> Is there a general list somewhere of what classes and builds more easily counter others and in turn which match-ups you should avoid, especially if new? I've been trying out other classes and build this season but I haven't been able to find anything other than an odd note here and there. I know a lot comes down to individual player skill but some guidelines would be helpful.

 

metabattle.com head over there and read every build guide from the top down and youll learn a lot and there is guides for map rotation and you will see the top streamers names at the bottom of each build you can learn a lot from watching them doesn't matter what class you play or what you are watching you need to learn all of them to a degree to be able to climb

 

Try to play a carry class if you're playing solo, like spellbreaker/holosmith have a lot of mobility and utility, they are good all rounders so you will have more favourable match ups with them.

[Serenity.6304]

I tried to make such a list once here in the forum, just because I love lists, but it is really hard, because it depends on the spec, the specific build, the role (teamfighters should rarely be in 1 vs 1) and the skill of the players.I am a scourge main, so this is from a scourge perspective. I am not often in 1 vs 1, but it still happens from time to time.

 

**Problematic for scourges:**

I use my core guard to counter deadeyes. My scourge requires LoS in order to survive the shots, but especially when the deadeye comes from behind and you are not paying attention, you are dead like instantly. A deadeye in the enemy team means perma death for my scourge, which is why core guard is a nice counter. Core Guard has good mobility, a nice burst and lots of blocks. And if the shit hits the fan, you can make yourself invulnerable.

 

Next to deadeyes, good (!) soulbeasts or rangers in general make life hell for scourges. And I know it is a meme build, but rifle warriors...A rare occasion, but really bad to play against as a scourge.

 

**Easy for scourges:**

I can usually duel other scourges and reapers without any problems (because I have so many hours on the scourge, I can react well and faster than many others -> skill and practice), but I guess it would usually be a 50:50 chance. Dependant on the class knowledge.

 

Scourge counters really well: all elementalists, (if you watch the attunements for weaver -> attack when weaver is in fire attunement, and use your condi clean wisely for the burn stacks), any guardians, scrappers, thieves (but maybe it's just me, I never have problems with them except deadeyes as listed above, even condi thief)

 

**50:50 with scourges:**

50:50: Warrior (if I can't corrupt their stability in rampage in time, I lose, but it is more a skill issue. Need to practice more), Holo (if you can avoid the cc-chain, only then), mesmer (only if you have staff 4 ready and don't waste if for nothing), revenants