Essence Manipulation Mastery

[Menadena.7482]

> @"Donari.5237" said:

> https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/developing-essence-manipulation/

>

> Very interesting. I'm still wondering some specifics, like how long you hold onto a stack as you build it up. I'm guessing from the write up that you get the short effect on orb pickup but the stack persists until you are at 30 and choose to use it. I'm also guessing you can't build up multiple stacks of different types, if only because the mechanics of choosing which blast to use might not fit into the GW2 UI.

>

> Does using your blast use it up entirely? So you spend time building up to 30, then you have 15 minutes to blast something but can only do it once in that 15 minutes? Or do you have 15 minutes to blast everything in sight limited only by cooldowns? Do you lose stacks on downed? On defeated? When zoning?

 

I am extremely ho-hum about any mastery that probably will only be able to be used in one zone. Or maybe a couple more IF they put whatever it needs in new zones.

 

After mounts and gliding guess what my fave mastery is? Also interesting is that it rarely gets the press it deserves. The one we got in Lake Doric that gives us a new downed skill ... that one thing alone is basically a game changer in some encounters.

[Menadena.7482]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> Multiple mastery lines = BIG win for me.

 

We are getting multiple lines rather than both in the same line? COOL! After masteries that could only be used in one zone that is probably my next most loathed thing about masteries. That if one was a dud we had to get it anyway if we wanted to get any mastery after it. Which is really annoying if you do not kill yourself to do full map completion EVERY time so have to watch where you spend your mastery points.

[Menadena.7482]

> @"Naxos.2503" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"Naxos.2503" said:

> > > It was an interesting read, and an interesting concept. It's only soured by what I consider a huge red flag : masteries are once again cantoned to maps. Something expansions via glider partially or mounts very specifically did not.

> > > This was one of the point on which I was waiting on them to elaborate for their comment of "Expansion grade content". This isn't.

> >

> > We don’t need more power creep.

>

> I'm not necessarily asking for That particular mastery to be usable in other maps. I'm asking for A mastery that is. I have accumulated countless masteries that see little to no use.

 

Exactly! You would think someone would have noticed their two most popular masteries (gliding and mounts) are available everywhere and the ones map-specific people get because they are a gate. Granted, mounts had been asked for but there was not a huge ask for gliding until HOT.

[Menadena.7482]

> @"Vince.1695" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Calm your horses i doubt these will be enabled in competitive gamemodes and if the game has taught us anything about all the mechanics you've mentioned above is that the majority of the community doesnt need to understand it, just the 10-20% that regularly pulls all the weight.

>

> I'm totally calm, lol.

> The thing is: The mastery is either necessary to overcome certain hurdles and then it would be too complex for the majority of the casual player base like cc bars and that stuff or it's useless and we can bypass it due to ignoring. There won't be any "in between".

> The 10-20% you mentioned only refers to dps since you don't need anything else in open world btw. And I only mentioned Strikes, not other competitive modes - I don't even know why you came up with that because it makes no sense in this discussion at all.

> But the essence system is definitely present in Strike missions - read the announcement again if you haven't noticed it. So, either Strikes stay easy as they are now without the system (and hence we don't need it) or you'll need the new masteries which will then definitely turn to restrictions in the lfg because no matter what random players will screw things up when it comes down to mandatory mechanics in instances.

>

> I bet this is going to be similar to Siren's Landing mechanic (Siren of Orr mastery). It wasn't very useful and nowhere near mandatory or of at least little advantage.

 

At least the siren of orr mastery had the advantage that you could just not bother getting it since it was in the last chapter.

[Menadena.7482]

> @"Cuks.8241" said:

> I like map specific masteries. They can go over the top with new mechanics and not break balance on other maps.

 

You may like them but I want things that will change my experience on maps I have been though 1000s of times before.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > > But, will people actually make builds factoring in the essences?

> > > > I'll probably just run my usual PvE build. I hope those essence beams aren't mandatory to fight the coloured enemies.

> > >

> > > Likely the ones who used ARCDPS to micromanage the smallest build change to be its own separate build template. You know, the ones who had 20+ chrono builds for raids.

> > Even those people didn't try to go for such a level of build micromanagement for _open world_. And the system is quite unlikely to be available in raids.

> >

>

> I was referring to the type of player rather than a specific player’s although I probably could have been more clear about that. Yes, it wouldn’t be available in raids whether it be because it’s disabled or there just isn’t an option to build up stacks. Based on the description, it wouldn’t be available in the rest of the hame anyway since the stacks are based on specific enemy types only available on the new map(s).

Exactly: it wouldn't be available (or would be useless) in any content where people actually care about build finetuning, and the places where it _would be available would also be the same places where noone would be bothered to adjust builds to a specific situation.

 

So, in the end, people would not be adjusting their builds for it in any case.

 

Especially when we consider the effect isn't longterm, but requires lengthy building up stacks for a shortterm boost.

 

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > > > But, will people actually make builds factoring in the essences?

> > > > > I'll probably just run my usual PvE build. I hope those essence beams aren't mandatory to fight the coloured enemies.

> > > >

> > > > Likely the ones who used ARCDPS to micromanage the smallest build change to be its own separate build template. You know, the ones who had 20+ chrono builds for raids.

> > > Even those people didn't try to go for such a level of build micromanagement for _open world_. And the system is quite unlikely to be available in raids.

> > >

> >

> > I was referring to the type of player rather than a specific player’s although I probably could have been more clear about that. Yes, it wouldn’t be available in raids whether it be because it’s disabled or there just isn’t an option to build up stacks. Based on the description, it wouldn’t be available in the rest of the hame anyway since the stacks are based on specific enemy types only available on the new map(s).

> Exactly: it wouldn't be available (or would be useless) in any content where people actually care about build finetuning, and the places where it _would be available would also be the same places where noone would be bothered to adjust builds to a specific situation.

>

> So, in the end, people would not be adjusting their builds for it in any case.

>

> Especially when we consider the effect isn't longterm, but requires lengthy building up stacks for a shortterm boost.

>

 

The same type of players compelled to create multiple build for any variation would likely be the same ones to do the same with these masteries.

 

You’re seemingly trying to counter my argument with something that really has no bearing on it.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> The same type of players compelled to create multiple build for any variation would likely be the same ones to do the same with these masteries.

Maybe, if the players you talk about existed. They do not. That's the point i am making - even the "type of players compelled to create multiple build for any variation" do _not_ generally do that for the content where those masteries would be available.

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> The same type of players compelled to create multiple build for any variation would likely be the same ones to do the same with these masteries.

 

I'd call that a fairy tale.

 

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > The same type of players compelled to create multiple build for any variation would likely be the same ones to do the same with these masteries.

> Maybe, if the players you talk about existed. They do not. That's the point i am making - even the "type of players compelled to create multiple build for any variation" do _not_ generally do that for the content where those masteries would be available.

 

How do you even know? The probability of there be zero players that do that is lower than the probability of there being at least one that would.

[AgentMoore.9453]

The whole system just sounds like it'll be more work than fun.

 

That's actually one of the reasons I don't enjoy the beetle mount; you can't just experience the fun of high speeds and aim yourself around the map, you have to keep careful track of curves and slight obstacles and hope you hit drift at the right times (and hope that it activates at all) or else you'll be going into orbit or slamming to a dead stop.

 

I'll give this new mastery system a shot - I'm willing to try just about anything before giving it my final review - but at the moment, it looks like we'll have to keep track of:

- which class of enemies we're killing

- what buff they drop

- how many stacks of buff we have

- how long we have left on our 15-minute bonus buff timer (after 30 mob kills)

- which chests we've already looted with that buff

- which area of the map we need to go to to find mobs/chests weak to the buff

 

and

 

- inventory management before the buff timer runs out

 

I don't doubt my ability to do all of that stuff, it just doesn't seem like it'll be enjoyable.

[Perisemiotics.4579]

> @"Vince.1695" said:

> > @"Perisemiotics.4579" said:

> > aww man the Siren of Orr one was awesome, gorgeous and actually meaningful for some of those annoying meta bosses (and could be shared to other players).

>

> The annoying bosses that got molten within one minute or less with people in proper gear? The essence on Siren's Landing was and is pointless and wasn't used regularly by players at all.

>

 

No, the annoying bosses that still melt most of the players down within seconds - for as long as you pretend the majority of players should have "proper gear" or would know their build inside out you'll fail to understand features like that mastery are designed - and are _meaningful_ - to a lot more players than just you, me, and 5% of players, if that.

[otto.5684]

This mastery is useless. It adds zero value to game play, and seems unusable outside of the LWS5.

 

This is lazy and uninspired work.

[Jimbru.6014]

Anything that you HAVE to repeat in a game, misses the point of it being a GAME. "Mandatory Fun" isn't fun.

[Gop.8713]

I realize no one has actually played through this content yet, but I wanted to go ahead and come in and make conclusive judgements about it, just to get ahead of the curve, y'know . . ?

[Linken.6345]

> @"Gop.8713" said:

> I realize no one has actually played through this content yet, but I wanted to go ahead and come in and make conclusive judgements about it, just to get ahead of the curve, y'know . . ?

 

And your conclusive judgments are what?

[Linken.6345]

> @"Jayden Reese.9542" said:

> He was pretending to be all the commenters. It's kinda his passive aggressive thing

 

Oh here I thought s/he was narcoleptic and just went ZZZZZzzzzz after writing half the post and accidently pressing post comment.

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Perisemiotics.4579" said:

> > @"Vince.1695" said:

> > > @"Perisemiotics.4579" said:

> > > aww man the Siren of Orr one was awesome, gorgeous and actually meaningful for some of those annoying meta bosses (and could be shared to other players).

> >

> > The annoying bosses that got molten within one minute or less with people in proper gear? The essence on Siren's Landing was and is pointless and wasn't used regularly by players at all.

> >

>

> No, the annoying bosses that still melt most of the players down within seconds - for as long as you pretend the majority of players should have "proper gear" or would know their build inside out you'll fail to understand features like that mastery are designed - and are _meaningful_ - to a lot more players than just you, me, and 5% of players, if that.

 

Sorry, but this is nonsense. When Siren's Landing was new all shrine bosses on the maps were killed within a couple of minutes in total. If you had players on every shrine at start the whole "meta" didn't last longer than 5 minutes at best. And with the possibility to port from shrine to shrine you could kill several bosses in one run and the whole thing collapsed almost as fast.

I mean the meta there can't even fail and if people die they can respawn next to the fight.

You know what the map was good for? Pearls for cheap back pieces & gambling at the main shrine + easy 100% map run for the possibility of a key.

 

Furthermore open world content has always been "zerged" down and if you were running a dps meter you would realize that 5 to max 10 players are doing the same amount of damage than the other 40-45 people. It is and was like this for years. Good thing here is the top doesn't care about this huge difference and the rest neither because they don't even know those numbers.

[Jimbru.6014]

As Anet themselves once pointed out, the DPS difference between the "elite" players and the casual masses is night and day. The former, who have their gear fully tweaked and raid rotations timed down to the microsecond, can do literally ten times the DPS of a casual player. And due to the lack of a gear grind in this game, most of that difference is EFFORT, put into skill and practice. Many games would consider that a highly negative situation, but Anet has realized that dirty Fashion Wars casuals (in which I include myself) make up like 90% of its player base and the majority of its income, so Anet has made the business decision of making GW2 into arguably the most casual-friendly MMO around. Though GW2 certainly didn't start that way, as anyone who remembers the days before HoT knows.

[Dante.1508]

> @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

> > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > Sounds great on paper, until the maps die.. then the "team" stuff become unplayable....

> > Sounds like three new grinds to "collect" stuff because we "need to" to pass the content with a 15min buff, really 15min why? And all this is suppose to be fun..

>

> > @"Jojo.6140" said:

> > Meh, i dont like the idea. If it were just for permanently buffs you receive via the mastery system it would be finde, but having it temporary sounds like a major pita. I hope its not mandatory for content, like "oh you wanna do the meta? Well, have fun farming 30 mobs beforehand for the buff". Would also mean that you cant quickly jump in in an activity. Changing characters? Have fun farming 30 mobs again.

>

> > @"Jayden Reese.9542" said:

> > Of course its one map or all these pve new saga zones as you get the buffs off certain mobs. The strikes will be harder I'm sure forcing us at 1st to farm 30 mobs 4 the buff prior to entering. We obviously wont be bringing this buff to the already released strike beginner one the released

>

> It seems that we will have to farm (even this word, existing in the Anet announcement for a game having _anti farming_ measures sounds .... nonsensical) 30 mobs. In translation - we should be well prepared before having fun. This is a total disconnection from what the spirit of the Manifesto of this game is.

>

> What worries me is this quote from the ANet announcement:

> _A lot of team members contributed feedback, and we spent months designing, implementing, playtesting, and iterating to bring Essence Manipulation to life._

>

> In conclusion, not only **one or very few** ANet developers, but **most of them** are totally disconnected from the Manifesto. Why is this? The answer is simple - we can find it in the same announcement:

>

> _I started with ideas and inspiration from games that use the old “rock, paper, scissors” approach to their balance and progression systems. For example, players want to obtain “rock” and level it up so they can defeat powerful “scissor” creatures. Games like the Monster Hunter™ series even incorporate this into their gear and weapon progression._

>

> So, this is not something for GW2 - this is an old idea, used by **single players** console games. Why is "_Monster Hunters_" nominated? Because it was (it is) famous for its _compulsion loop_. This is its core feature. What is a _compulsion loop_? Wiki says:

>

> "A **compulsion loop** or core loop is a habitual chain of activities that will be repeated to gain a neurochemical reward such as the release of dopamine.[1] Compulsion loops are deliberately used in video game design as an extrinsic motivation for players"

>

> Used in games, OK, but for what? Let's see - "**Compulsion loops** can be used as a replacement for game content, especially in grinding and freemium game experience models."

>

> Now everything is clear - at least for me.

> - The developers team did not understand the Manifesto (I suspect they don't even know it exists). So, we must work to prepare for .... fun?

> - They use techniques developed in 2004 for single player console game. How this will work in a multiplayer environment? I don't know - but this "innovative" idea is already older than GW1+GW2. It was avoided by the GW2 first developers.

> - Most probably, this .... Mastery will be used as a content replacement, keeping the players busy doing the same thing. That means - bye bye real content. I started to question if even the story will be even at decent level.

> - As a bonus (for ANet, not for players) the compulsory need of some players to have the build based on this Mastery stored may push them to buy Templates.

> - Another bonus - by allowing this Mastery in core Tyria the players not owning PoF may be persuaded to buy it - well, it is not important the impact on the low level players playing in low level map.

>

> By loosing so many old developers this year, GW2 did not loose skill or work power - I'm pretty sure the new developers are skilled and willing to work for the game. But GW2 lost a lot of the spirit making it so different from the other games. The actual Mastery proves this - none even considered that .... outdated Manifesto.

>

 

I must be wired wrong because those event chains do not make me feel good at all, they do the direct opposite for me, i lose interest get bored and do something else.. Honestly i absolutely hate the zerg meta garbage this game seems to push.. I can't even go 30mins and i am tired from boredom.

 

I see certain people so addicted to meta and things like halloween lab, i just cannot stomach it for me then a few minutes..

 

Also i hated monster hunter and consider it to this day a huge waste of money to me.. i have not purchased its expansion. And it saddens me to see that game style coming to GW2..

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"Perisemiotics.4579" said:

> > > @"Vince.1695" said:

> > > > @"Perisemiotics.4579" said:

> > > > aww man the Siren of Orr one was awesome, gorgeous and actually meaningful for some of those annoying meta bosses (and could be shared to other players).

> > >

> > > The annoying bosses that got molten within one minute or less with people in proper gear? The essence on Siren's Landing was and is pointless and wasn't used regularly by players at all.

> > >

> >

> > No, the annoying bosses that still melt most of the players down within seconds - for as long as you pretend the majority of players should have "proper gear" or would know their build inside out you'll fail to understand features like that mastery are designed - and are _meaningful_ - to a lot more players than just you, me, and 5% of players, if that.

>

> Sorry, but this is nonsense. When Siren's Landing was new all shrine bosses on the maps were killed within a couple of minutes in total. If you had players on every shrine at start the whole "meta" didn't last longer than 5 minutes at best. And with the possibility to port from shrine to shrine you could kill several bosses in one run and the whole thing collapsed almost as fast.

> I mean the meta there can't even fail and if people die they can respawn next to the fight.

> You know what the map was good for? Pearls for cheap back pieces & gambling at the main shrine + easy 100% map run for the possibility of a key.

>

> Furthermore open world content has always been "zerged" down and if you were running a dps meter you would realize that 5 to max 10 players are doing the same amount of damage than the other 40-45 people. It is and was like this for years. Good thing here is the top doesn't care about this huge difference and the rest neither because they don't even know those numbers.

 

You seem to be on a very different server to me.. and you realize a majority of customers do not use dps meters to play their mmo's.. hell i bet most don't even bother with mods at all.. i know i don't..

[Ashantara.8731]

After watching the stream, I am not worried. Sounds like a nice addition, but no stress of grinding involved unless you absolutely want to. As for these masteries' overall usefulness, well, we'll see. I don't think they will have much influence outside of their respective maps/areas, so it's not a new mechanic that could potentially "break the meta of the game."

[coso.9173]

i think we have to first test it to see how it plays IMO, it could be fun or it cold be annoying AF

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Dante.1508" said:

> You seem to be on a very different server to me.. and you realize a majority of customers do not use dps meters to play their mmo's.. hell i bet most don't even bother with mods at all.. i know i don't..

 

What? We're talking about the same map right? Siren's Landing. Next to Straits of Devastation in Orr. The Living World 3 Season's episode 6. Since its release I've never seen the shrine meta fail when I was there and this event is up every 30 minutes. You have to kill a wraith, a gorilla, a spider and a drake and you can do that one after the other which is easy doable in small group/s of 5 casual players - skilled players should be able to solo/duo those without problems. It's one of the easiest metas in the game considering the very low amount of players you need to succeed. I think you heavily mix things up here because there really isn't any difficult thing in this map. The most demanding task there is the jumping puzzle if you do it without any help (mesmers or xera portals and nowadays mounts).

 

One note to your statement to dps meters: It doesn't matter if the majority of players use them or not. I was just pointing out that a small amount of players are actually doing most of the damage on encounters in the open world. That's not bragging, complaining or anything else but a pure fact. This is observable on almost every meta/group event in the game...just neutral data you can collect. I also wrote the majority doesn't even know about the numbers which I think is a good thing because some of those players would maybe lose their immersion if they could realize that their impact on the success was almost negligible.

 

But that's also the reason why I think that those masteries aren't mandatory for being successful in killing mobs/champs because the majority of GW2 players would be unable to cope with that once the mixture of players in a map is in favor for a very casual spectrum - they have to balance open world and did so in the past for the casual crowd. Just think about it: If players with suboptimal builds or just usual "play how I want" builds are able to be successful the system cannot be complex otherwise they would fail since lots of open world players cannot react properly to damage indicators nor break a cc bar. Mike Z made a statement between players that use meta builds and others. The difference is huge and therefore meta players will definitely be able to be successful beating encounters without the mastery since we already have the numbers of the buffs.

Prevented from looting a blue/red/green chest because you don't have the mastery is a different thing and not related to difficulty or beating an encounter a.k.a. irrelevant for my remarks.

[Hashberry.4510]

So horizontal progression may be as pointless as vertical progression, I guess. It doesn't look like they can spread more fun over the carcass for vets.

[Gop.8713]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"Jayden Reese.9542" said:

> > He was pretending to be all the commenters. It's kinda his passive aggressive thing

>

> Oh here I thought s/he was narcoleptic and just went ZZZZZzzzzz after writing half the post and accidently pressing post comment.

 

Irony is difficult without the benefit of nonverbal cues. I forgive you both :)