Infinite Horizon

[Noss.4105]

**Infinite Horizon**

When you gain Mirage Cloak, your illusions also gain it.

[Exciton.8942]

Option 1:

Make it baseline but significantly reduce the damage output by clone ambushes.

 

Have clones remain as distraction and shatter fodder rather than damage dealer.

 

Optioin 2:

Leave the trait as it is but provide more options to help mirage keep clones alive

 

 

[Hot Boy.7138]

The whole concept of the spec is based on infinite horizon, yet it's not baseline... At this point, most of us are probably used to it being this way, but let me remind you, making any build without infinite horizon is essentially similar to a cup of tea with no teabag.

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

> @Exciton.8942 said:

> Option 1:

> Make it baseline but significantly reduce the damage output by clone ambushes.

>

> Have clones remain as distraction and shatter fodder rather than damage dealer.

>

> Optioin 2:

> Leave the trait as it is but provide more options to help mirage keep clones alive

>

>

 

It should be baseline and adjusted accordingly, but keep in mind current ambush attacks...

Axe: unreliable when try to hit moving opponent (damage output may need reduction if it started track opponents)

Staff: unreliable when try to hit moving opponent (damage output may need reduction if it started track opponents)

Scepter: pretty negligible damage, 5x confusion/torment for 1-2s is nothing in current meta yet it is assuming all projectiles hits.

Sword: clone base is roughly 20 hp, it only deals damage if traited for power block and actually interrupt enemy

GS: clone deal roughly 200-300 hp (400-500 with crits) over 1s.

 

While some may thought clone sword ambush is painful, but against competent opponent who doesn't spam skills it is far from OP.

At this stage I doubt damage output is the real issue. Plus having GM trait freed up allows PvE mirages to trait for dune cloak while maintain illusion uniqueness.

 

Personally I think mirage traitline need a GM trait that can reliably generate clone without dependence on Dueling, but that's another topic of discussion...

[Carighan.6758]

IMO, a remove **would** work, while just making it baseline doesn't. However, removal would also be a pretty lame option.

 

I feel like Mirage, more than anything, needs a proper mechanic as it's "spec mechanic" first of all, then add the ambush skills as the DPS realization of that aspect. Which would be:

 

**Permanent illusions**

_You are always accompanied by 3 clones of yourself. These clones will attack whatever you are attacking, but spread out from you. They cannot be killed by AoE attacks, and while cleave attacks can hit them they need to specifically target the clone to deal damage. _

* If clones are killed in any way, they respawn after 2 seconds.

* When using a Phantasm skill, a single clone will empower to become a phantasm, fire off its attack 3 times in rapid succession, then turn back into a clone.

* Your Shatter skills now have a 5 seconds shared cooldown on top of their individual cooldowns.

 

 

And then leave IH as an option, IMO. More burst vs more overall damage in Dune Cloak. Further for purity of purpose, remove Mirrors as a mechanic, keep Cloak as a counterbalance to the added damage from Ambush skills however.

[Refia Montes.3205]

I like Infinite Horizon as is. In PvP nothing just competes with Elusive Mind. In PvE IH can become better than DS, just need a bit of tweaks with Ambushes. And having two different, playstyles on PvE is fun. One which IH makes clones awesome and cool in concept and one that's boring and keeps the same Condi Mesmer playstyle.

[trooper.2650]

PVP wise, it needs some rework. It could be that illusions, on top of what the trait already says, could gain a +20% health. It is still negligible, but if used in conjunction with SoI, gives a solid alternative to our play styles

 

Alternatively, if illusions die as quick as they do now, they should add 5sec bleeding on crit (same as sharper images) or ambush should deal more damage . Not much more, but a little tweak should be enough. Considering how easy is to create clones right now, a small adjustment should be enough.

 

PS: staff and axe ambush need a serious buff. Staff could defenitely be faster/better tracking but I think, considering the initial whirlwind animation, it could defenitely absorb projectiles. Axe, I dunno... but as it stands it hits like a wet noodle and it takes ages to get to the target, if it ever hits _something_

 

 

[FaboBabo.3581]

Axe ambush + IH is the confu burst Build in my opinion. Its used when bosses have a lot of phases , for example the first boss in the chaos frac. It will stop at 75%/50% and 25%, so rolling out 3 phantasms may not be possible.

I use a strange combo for those.

 

Self deception + decaptive evasion ( wtf in pve ???)

 

Axe 2 , jaunt , dodge ambush , axe 3 , - F2 is the fastest burst combo and gets out 30 stacks of confu in no Time. In most cases if the confu goes down , boss is on 75% and invunerable anyways.

 

Running a wvw build with 1100 condi damage i mange to get 13k confusion ticks on several bosses .

 

Axe IH is a really good Casual pve build.

 

 

[OriOri.8724]

While I do think it should ultimately be removed from the game, if we can't have that then it does need to go baseline. But as it is, we cannot leave it as a major trait.

[FaboBabo.3581]

Can anyone say why they think it needs to be removed? Cant imagine a reason except balancing, which shouldnt be an arguement.

[Bod.8261]

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> Can anyone say why they think it needs to be removed? Cant imagine a reason except balancing, which shouldnt be an arguement.

Why can't balancing be an argument?

 

As others have said before:

As long as IH exists, Ambushes will be balanced around potentially having 3 clones performing them along with the mesmer.

If we make IH baseline, this gets an even bigger problem.

We'd rather have strong Ambushes.

 

And to be completely honest:

I'd rather have the whole class mechanic scrapped and replaced with something that isn't a copy of the daredevil's GM in super-clunky.

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @Bod.8261 said:

> > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > Can anyone say why they think it needs to be removed? Cant imagine a reason except balancing, which shouldnt be an arguement.

> Why can't balancing be an argument?

>

> As others have said before:

> As long as IH exists, Ambushes will be balanced around potentially having 3 clones performing them along with the mesmer.

> If we make IH baseline, this gets an even bigger problem.

> We'd rather have strong Ambushes.

>

> And to be completely honest:

> I'd rather have the whole class mechanic scrapped and replaced with something that isn't a copy of the daredevil's GM in super-clunky.

 

Is f1 balanced arround 3 illusions?

 

Balance cant be an argument, cause once u got the right balance the skill is fine.

 

Balance issue means time issue, which shouldnt be an argument for Things like this.

 

We' ll have some broken versions, some sh*t versions, and somewhere , we'll get the balanced version, Healthy for the game. A

 

Daredevil dodge ; move further, mirage dodge , dont move.

 

Its the Complete opposite.

[Carighan.6758]

> @Bod.8261 said:

> I'd rather have the whole class mechanic scrapped and replaced with something that isn't a copy of the daredevil's GM in super-clunky.

 

This, essentially. As long as it's just a crappy copy of what someone else has baseline, it's not going to work out well. Or rather it could, if it weren't **so** clunky, but then that goes for every single Mesmer mechanic sadly.

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @Carighan.6758 said:

> > @Bod.8261 said:

> > I'd rather have the whole class mechanic scrapped and replaced with something that isn't a copy of the daredevil's GM in super-clunky.

>

> This, essentially. As long as it's just a crappy copy of what someone else has baseline, it's not going to work out well. Or rather it could, if it weren't **so** clunky, but then that goes for every single Mesmer mechanic sadly.

 

Oh , daredevil is base Thief now ...

Seriously, play mirage more then 5 minutes, until u actually realize Mirage Cloak is great.

[Carighan.6758]

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> Oh , daredevil is base Thief now ...

> Seriously, play mirage more then 5 minutes, until u actually realize Mirage Cloak is great.

 

Played it each day since release, I like Mirage Cloak as an **idea**. But as always with ANet, the concept was great, the implementation is hte problem. Like I said plenty before, I'd be fine if it just lasted 15 or so seconds on the ground.

 

Edit: Ambush is Daredevil, now? (oh duuuuh, apologies, I just realized that my previous post quoted the wrong part compared to what I was commenting on ... )

[OriOri.8724]

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> Can anyone say why they think it needs to be removed? Cant imagine a reason except balancing, which shouldnt be an arguement.

 

Lol. You can't just say balance shouldn't be an argument because you don't agree with it. This is an mmo, if anything balance should always be the top argument for or against something. You can't just ignore it and expect the game to remain healthy long term

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @OriOri.8724 said:

> > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > Can anyone say why they think it needs to be removed? Cant imagine a reason except balancing, which shouldnt be an arguement.

>

> Lol. You can't just say balance shouldn't be an argument because you don't agree with it. This is an mmo, if anything balance should always be the top argument for or against something. You can't just ignore it and expect the game to remain healthy long term

 

read other comments please to further understand what i meant. Balancing is nor argument, because it simply involves Time nothing more.

If u can balance an Ability, even if it needs time, you SHOULD balance the Ability instead of removing it.

 

With ur argument ; scourge and SB aren't balanced right now , remove them, or balance them out?

[LightningWolfTigerBear.672]

I like my build just fine, thanks. To make IH baseline they'd have to lower the damage of the clone's ambushes, and if they did that then why even bother giving the clones ambushes to begin with?

[Daishi.6027]

I never got A-nets concept.

 

"you can drop target hide among your clones!" (ignoring cleave and AoE for now)

"And when you doge you can ambush your target!" (ignoring how ineffectual some [greats sword] are.)

But what is the point of hiding in your illusions, if you are going to waste your doge to reveal who you are?!?

Because now you've shown who you are for a mediocre effect and one less doge to deal with their aggro.

 

@A-net, for a balance perspective just because we can make what you given us work to win, doesn't mean it's balanced.

If you're worried about us taking Elusive mind (which isn't a big deal if we're hiding in our clones anyways.) or Dune cloak (which is probably the real problem)

it's still inferior to the condi output of scourge and the amount of crap they spew all over points. It might be a little strong 1v1, but as you've shown for years that doesn't seem to be a problem for you guys.

Stop constantly throttling mesmers like usual lol.

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @LightningWolfTigerBear.6725 said:

> I like my build just fine, thanks. To make IH baseline they'd have to lower the damage of the clone's ambushes, and if they did that then why even bother giving the clones ambushes to begin with?

 

which damage? Probably the 400 extra damage if u manage to get an 3 clone greatsword ambush. WORTH IT

How much dmg does GS auto attack again ?

[Hackuuna.4085]

At this point I'd welcome IH being made baseline even if adjustments have to occur to the damage output. From a WvW perspective Elusive Mind is pretty hard not to take and I can see where the argument comes that IH would add to the Mirage concept.

[LightningWolfTigerBear.672]

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > @LightningWolfTigerBear.6725 said:

> > I like my build just fine, thanks. To make IH baseline they'd have to lower the damage of the clone's ambushes, and if they did that then why even bother giving the clones ambushes to begin with?

>

>3 clone greatsword ambush

Well there's your problem, I was referring to my axe clones. Greatsword clones though, bleh. They really need to go back to the drawing board with that ambush.

 

> @Hackuuna.4085 said:

> At this point I'd welcome IH being made baseline even if adjustments have to occur to the damage output. From a WvW perspective Elusive Mind is pretty hard not to take and I can see where the argument comes that IH would add to the Mirage concept.

 

Again I ask: Why would you want IH made baseline when they'd have to reduce the damage to make that happen? Making your clones hit a little harder is all IH does.

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @LightningWolfTigerBear.6725 said:

> > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > @LightningWolfTigerBear.6725 said:

> > > I like my build just fine, thanks. To make IH baseline they'd have to lower the damage of the clone's ambushes, and if they did that then why even bother giving the clones ambushes to begin with?

> >

> >3 clone greatsword ambush

> Well there's your problem, I was referring to my axe clones. Greatsword clones though, bleh. They really need to go back to the drawing board with that ambush.

>

> > @Hackuuna.4085 said:

> > At this point I'd welcome IH being made baseline even if adjustments have to occur to the damage output. From a WvW perspective Elusive Mind is pretty hard not to take and I can see where the argument comes that IH would add to the Mirage concept.

>

> Again I ask: Why would you want IH made baseline when they'd have to reduce the damage to make that happen? Making your clones hit a little harder is all IH does.

 

AS FAR AS I KNOW, all clones have the same damage reduction, meaning axe ambush for clones isn't hitting hard either. Proof me wrong, but i recall my axe clones doin 50-100 damage each. Only thing which hits hard are Conditions. We allready got scepter mentioning that clones do half of condi duration, even if IH isn't baseline. Scepter ambush for example is allready designed arround IH.

 

Making IH Baseline without reducing dmg Numbers of clones would be ok.

 

I go a step further and say, increase damage numbers on Ambush attacks for clones. Make em scale equal to Shatter. Example sword ambush

 

[0 clones; 100% power]

[1 clones; 140% Power]

[2 clones; 170% Power]

[3 clones; 190% Power]

 

Last time (chrono), we got a sustain/utility Tool BASELINE (F5). This time i want a damage multiplicator BASELINE.

 

We deserve this.

 

 

[LightningWolfTigerBear.672]

> @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > @LightningWolfTigerBear.6725 said:

> > > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > > @LightningWolfTigerBear.6725 said:

> > > > I like my build just fine, thanks. To make IH baseline they'd have to lower the damage of the clone's ambushes, and if they did that then why even bother giving the clones ambushes to begin with?

> > >

> > >3 clone greatsword ambush

> > Well there's your problem, I was referring to my axe clones. Greatsword clones though, bleh. They really need to go back to the drawing board with that ambush.

> >

> > > @Hackuuna.4085 said:

> > > At this point I'd welcome IH being made baseline even if adjustments have to occur to the damage output. From a WvW perspective Elusive Mind is pretty hard not to take and I can see where the argument comes that IH would add to the Mirage concept.

> >

> > Again I ask: Why would you want IH made baseline when they'd have to reduce the damage to make that happen? Making your clones hit a little harder is all IH does.

>

> AS FAR AS I KNOW, all clones have the same damage reduction, meaning axe ambush for clones isn't hitting hard either. Proof me wrong, but i recall my axe clones doin 50-100 damage each. Only thing which hits hard are Conditions. We allready got scepter mentioning that clones do half of condi duration, even if IH isn't baseline. Scepter ambush for example is allready designed arround IH.

>

> Making IH Baseline without reducing dmg Numbers of clones would be ok.

>

> I go a step further and say, increase damage numbers on Ambush attacks for clones. Make em scale equal to Shatter. Example sword ambush

>

> [0 clones; 100% power]

> [1 clones; 140% Power]

> [2 clones; 170% Power]

> [3 clones; 190% Power]

>

> Last time (chrono), we got a sustain/utility Tool BASELINE (F5). This time i want a damage multiplicator BASELINE.

>

> We deserve this.

>

>

 

Hey, if they look at Mirage and decide they can add power to our spec without breaking it by making IH as it is or even better baseline then I'm all for it, but I'm wholly against nerfing it just to cram it into a minor trait because then IH would become almost purely cosmetic.

 

And to answer your question, yes axe clones do have the same power as the rest, but clone condi does scale with your own and the axe clones stack bleed, confusion and torment like champs.

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @LightningWolfTigerBear.6725 said:

> > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > @LightningWolfTigerBear.6725 said:

> > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > > > @LightningWolfTigerBear.6725 said:

> > > > > I like my build just fine, thanks. To make IH baseline they'd have to lower the damage of the clone's ambushes, and if they did that then why even bother giving the clones ambushes to begin with?

> > > >

> > > >3 clone greatsword ambush

> > > Well there's your problem, I was referring to my axe clones. Greatsword clones though, bleh. They really need to go back to the drawing board with that ambush.

> > >

> > > > @Hackuuna.4085 said:

> > > > At this point I'd welcome IH being made baseline even if adjustments have to occur to the damage output. From a WvW perspective Elusive Mind is pretty hard not to take and I can see where the argument comes that IH would add to the Mirage concept.

> > >

> > > Again I ask: Why would you want IH made baseline when they'd have to reduce the damage to make that happen? Making your clones hit a little harder is all IH does.

> >

> > AS FAR AS I KNOW, all clones have the same damage reduction, meaning axe ambush for clones isn't hitting hard either. Proof me wrong, but i recall my axe clones doin 50-100 damage each. Only thing which hits hard are Conditions. We allready got scepter mentioning that clones do half of condi duration, even if IH isn't baseline. Scepter ambush for example is allready designed arround IH.

> >

> > Making IH Baseline without reducing dmg Numbers of clones would be ok.

> >

> > I go a step further and say, increase damage numbers on Ambush attacks for clones. Make em scale equal to Shatter. Example sword ambush

> >

> > [0 clones; 100% power]

> > [1 clones; 140% Power]

> > [2 clones; 170% Power]

> > [3 clones; 190% Power]

> >

> > Last time (chrono), we got a sustain/utility Tool BASELINE (F5). This time i want a damage multiplicator BASELINE.

> >

> > We deserve this.

> >

> >

>

> Hey, if they look at Mirage and decide they can add power to our spec without breaking it by making IH as it is or even better baseline then I'm all for it, but I'm wholly against nerfing it just to cram it into a minor trait because then IH would become almost purely cosmetic.

>

> And to answer your question, yes axe clones do have the same power as the rest, but clone condi does scale with your own and the axe clones stack bleed, confusion and torment like champs.

 

 

Be self confident ; DEMAND this. Look at other specs, we deserve this mate.

We deserve IH baseline with our clones actually doin damage.

 

I was a noob the time i first touched a mesmer, had no real experience, so as i saw my clones dealin "0-2" damage on lvl 1, i thaught it would just scale into late Game, when i finally realized; oh well they stack 100% conditions, but not a single piece of Power Damage... feels weired.

 

If base Mesmer does not get adjusted to have clones deal at least a specific amount of damage, then at least Mirage should do it, with Ambush skills and IH.

 

It would not give our clones sustained damage, but specifically rewards the Burst Build.

Instead of spawning 3 useless Clones just to destroy them, you would spawn 3 actually usefull clones, do fight the enemy alongside u.

In the final seconds those clones will sacrifice themseleve for u, to do the last needed burst with shatter.

 

It would help Mesmer to get a better curve, from basically havin 1 Phantasm and 2 useless clones, into 3 usefull clones, into shatter, into 1 phant + clones, and then basically what the situation is asking for - more phants for sustained damage, or more clones into burst?

 

@A-Net ; give us IH baseline + damage on clone Ambushes.

 

AND FREAKING BUFF MIRAGE MANTLE TO HEAL OR GIVE BARRIER IN ADDITION.