apharma.3741 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Making it baseline would be rediculously overpowered in a condi build, even interrupt build to the point it would need gutting to the point where clones do little more than the same animation as an ambush attack without any damage. However at the moment it just isn’t that competitive with elusive mind, I mean stunbreak and condition cleanse on dodge? It almost blows away most of the daredevil dodges and absolutely every one of them is all kinds of broken. I think I prefer it as is but maybe there needs to be some trade off balancing made, possibly elusive mind needs to be toned down to make it competitive or maybe infinite horizon changed what it competes with. It’s a good trait but it’s not in the same league as elusive mind and possibly not even as good as dune cloak (20% condition duration alone is worth it in condi builds) especially when you look at some ambush attacks and how they can’t hit molasses sliding down a slope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refia Montes.3205 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 Honestly the competitiveness of Infinite Horizon just really depends on the strength of ambushes. As of now it's not there yet, but tuning them to become stronger will make Infinite Horizon a powerful trait by itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaboBabo.3581 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 > @apharma.3741 said: > Making it baseline would be rediculously overpowered in a condi build, even interrupt build to the point it would need gutting to the point where clones do little more than the same animation as an ambush attack without any damage. However at the moment it just isn’t that competitive with elusive mind, I mean stunbreak and condition cleanse on dodge? It almost blows away most of the daredevil dodges and absolutely every one of them is all kinds of broken. > > I think I prefer it as is but maybe there needs to be some trade off balancing made, possibly elusive mind needs to be toned down to make it competitive or maybe infinite horizon changed what it competes with. It’s a good trait but it’s not in the same league as elusive mind and possibly not even as good as dune cloak (20% condition duration alone is worth it in condi builds) especially when you look at some ambush attacks and how they can’t hit molasses sliding down a slope. Even with stunbreak only u would take elusive mind over any of the other two in pvp and wvw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miocast.2657 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 IH should be baseline, and instead of IH, new trait that spawn random small aoe fields at place of shatters of mirrors and illusions. So we could actually combine sword leap, jaunt, axe 2, staff 2 etc with something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > @"Mina Ion.7852" said: > > Honestly, having it on my build and running through PoF with it, I can absolutely attest how very strong this Grandmaster can be. It should stay as is. Having this as baseline ON TOP of another Grandmaster would be OP as @#%. It's already very easy to throw double digit stacks of Confusion with three seconds onto a targeted mob. MIrrored Axes + Infinite Horizons + Shatter ends fights VERY fast. > > I agree that in PvE its very strong due to targets standing still etc. In Pve u can easily hit 30 - 40 Stacks Confusion in a few seconds and burst mobs down like a lava. In PvP for example even if u run IH its not that strong, cause most ambushes are unreliable. Staff Ambush is an example, or Axe ambush. Staff Ambush never hits anything in Pvp or Wvw, and the Axes get dodged easily. The good one is the Sword Ambush, cause with IH u can do multiple interrupts, which can be crazy, but thats it. U will use Illusionary Ambush for this mostly in Pvp and WvW, cause u bascially NEED to take Elusive Mind right now. So even if there would be a new Grandmastertrait; u would probably not take in WvW or PvP, cause Elusive Mind is better. Now If we we look at the combination of Elusive Mind and IH beeing baseline, i dont think it's that Kind of broken, regadring to what the New Grandmaster would be. > > Look at Dune Cloak + IH for example ; i dont think it would be broken. > > Mirage was anounced to turn into one with its illusions, on BASE Mirage, not with a Grandmaster traited. So maybe they should buff the ambushes and live the trait as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > @apharma.3741 said: > > Making it baseline would be rediculously overpowered in a condi build, even interrupt build to the point it would need gutting to the point where clones do little more than the same animation as an ambush attack without any damage. However at the moment it just isn’t that competitive with elusive mind, I mean stunbreak and condition cleanse on dodge? It almost blows away most of the daredevil dodges and absolutely every one of them is all kinds of broken. > > > > I think I prefer it as is but maybe there needs to be some trade off balancing made, possibly elusive mind needs to be toned down to make it competitive or maybe infinite horizon changed what it competes with. It’s a good trait but it’s not in the same league as elusive mind and possibly not even as good as dune cloak (20% condition duration alone is worth it in condi builds) especially when you look at some ambush attacks and how they can’t hit molasses sliding down a slope. > > Even with stunbreak only u would take elusive mind over any of the other two in pvp and wvw. > > Definitely and no amount of changes to ambush attacks will likely alter this. At least dune cloak has its place in a condition PvE build even if it’s only for the 20% duration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayama.1854 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 > Even with stunbreak only u would take elusive mind over any of the other two in pvp and wvw. > Definitely and no amount of changes to ambush attacks will likely alter this. At least dune cloak has its place in a condition PvE build even if it’s only for the 20% duration. Sword ambush with infinite horizont is really strong in PvP, it gives you daze (stun if traited with Confounding Suggestions) on dodge. Combine it with superiority Superiority Complex and it gets really stupid really fast. You dont need so many stun breakers when your opponent gets stunned all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaboBabo.3581 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 > @Mayama.1854 said: > > Even with stunbreak only u would take elusive mind over any of the other two in pvp and wvw. > > > Definitely and no amount of changes to ambush attacks will likely alter this. At least dune cloak has its place in a condition PvE build even if it’s only for the 20% duration. > > Sword ambush with infinite horizont is really strong in PvP, it gives you daze (stun if traited with Confounding Suggestions) on dodge. > Combine it with superiority Superiority Complex and it gets really stupid really fast. > You dont need so many stun breakers when your opponent gets stunned all the time. Get ganked from stealth , boom u're dead. U NEED elusive mind if u want to play competetive. (u cant stun 5 ppl at the same time exceept they chill on a boat waiting for it to happen). Nothing will push elusive mind out of pvp and wvw. And during its not even that strong. In the current meta elusive could clear 2 condis and it would be balanced. Remember base dodge cooldown is 10 seconds. U need to Things to lower this CD. (Only possibilty in pvp is vigor). Mirage does not even gain endurance regen outside of vigor. BUT BUT MIRRORS ?! No.. Just no... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 > @Mayama.1854 said: > > Even with stunbreak only u would take elusive mind over any of the other two in pvp and wvw. > > > Definitely and no amount of changes to ambush attacks will likely alter this. At least dune cloak has its place in a condition PvE build even if it’s only for the 20% duration. > > Sword ambush with infinite horizont is really strong in PvP, it gives you daze (stun if traited with Confounding Suggestions) on dodge. > Combine it with superiority Superiority Complex and it gets really stupid really fast. > You dont need so many stun breakers when your opponent gets stunned all the time. See the funny thing is I actually have been playing an interrupt build based on infinite horizon, against people new to it or classes without a ton of stab it does ok. The downfall is that it’s very telegraphed as everything starts leaping at you, one dodge will dodge them all rendering the core of the interrupt build kinda poor. I also would always recommend DE over superiority complex (I think you meant ineptitude) for a build reliant on clone interrupts or infinite horizon, you need clones and the more clones you have the more interrupts you have, the bigger your shatters can be after they all leap to the enemy. The strength of the build comes from the 1v1 potential and heavy use of CC while being generally a hard to follow build as the enemy is leaping all over the place and so are the clones. In larger fights of 5v5 it’s not so hot, AoE heavy fighters will destroy you and it mostly is only strong in WvW where you can get crazy endurance regen which isn’t possible after all the nerfs in PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rank eleven monk.9502 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > @Mayama.1854 said: > > > Even with stunbreak only u would take elusive mind over any of the other two in pvp and wvw. > > > > > Definitely and no amount of changes to ambush attacks will likely alter this. At least dune cloak has its place in a condition PvE build even if it’s only for the 20% duration. > > > > Sword ambush with infinite horizont is really strong in PvP, it gives you daze (stun if traited with Confounding Suggestions) on dodge. > > Combine it with superiority Superiority Complex and it gets really stupid really fast. > > You dont need so many stun breakers when your opponent gets stunned all the time. > > Get ganked from stealth , boom u're dead. > > U NEED elusive mind if u want to play competetive. > > (u cant stun 5 ppl at the same time exceept they chill on a boat waiting for it to happen). > > Nothing will push elusive mind out of pvp and wvw. > > And during its not even that strong. In the current meta elusive could clear 2 condis and it would be balanced. > > Remember base dodge cooldown is 10 seconds. U need to Things to lower this CD. (Only possibilty in pvp is vigor). > > Mirage does not even gain endurance regen outside of vigor. > > BUT BUT MIRRORS ?! > > No.. Just no... Vigor + sigils + rune. You seem to ignore that people are rolling IH on power burst builds in high tier spvp, so when you say you NEED elusive mind, you are wrong. Just because YOU need it (and it is a very strong trait, personally I am also using it). But IH is actually a competitive trait. It is annoying that people are asking pretty fine traits to be reworked when we have far worse problems than IH (most ambushes, some random useless traits etc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miocast.2657 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 How about elusive mind baseline instead of IH? Elusive mind can be replaced for endurance gain on blocks, reflects. It could synergy well with scepter, OH sword blocks, mirror on Manipulation skills, distortion or blur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigr.6481 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 It wouldn't be a good idea to make it baseline because it would directly conflict with traits like confounding suggestions, which is essentially bad design. It should probably be removed and reworked in a way to actually compete with elusive mind in terms of viability and not indirectly gimp other traits that you may have picked for your build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miroe.2054 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 I'm playing a build with elusive mind. I do in no way need IH to be effective. If IH were baseline, theyd have to tone it down to a point where it wasn't much of a damage increase anymore. You'd choose a new Grandmaster trait and essentially the change would just be a buff to all Mirages and eventually Mirage will get a nerf anyways just as most of the new elite specs will. IH right now is a very interesting, offensive trait that you can take or leave. Just as it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsaneQR.7412 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 Mirage has a very unique playstyle. Its basically creating clones, spam evade, shatter weaponswap and repeat. Between there are some utilities and keeping yourself alive. One problem with this playstyle (which is hell of fun IMO) is that you have to take infinite horizon. It just feels like part of the profession playstyle thats mandatory to have. Mesmer themselfs need some mechanic changes to make phantasms work on this E-Spec, because its clone spamming and shattering. Phantasms still should be unshatterable or have a flip skill where thay could be shattered seperately with a unique effect. And clones should be shatter fodder as they always were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaboBabo.3581 Posted October 18, 2017 Share Posted October 18, 2017 > @InsaneQR.7412 said: > Mirage has a very unique playstyle. Its basically creating clones, spam evade, shatter weaponswap and repeat. Between there are some utilities and keeping yourself alive. > One problem with this playstyle (which is hell of fun IMO) is that you have to take infinite horizon. It just feels like part of the profession playstyle thats mandatory to have. > Mesmer themselfs need some mechanic changes to make phantasms work on this E-Spec, because its clone spamming and shattering. > Phantasms still should be unshatterable or have a flip skill where thay could be shattered seperately with a unique effect. And clones should be shatter fodder as they always were. Mirage wants to use clones, while phantasms are still better. Clones become "ok" on Mirage if u have IH. Even then phantasms are better and guees what; IH says "illlusions" but only clones gain acces to the ambush Part. Either break the illusion - system ( i had many posts about how ) or make IH Baseline and give Another GM which has something with clones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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