OriOri.8724 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > @LightningWolfTigerBear.6725 said: > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > > @LightningWolfTigerBear.6725 said: > > > > I like my build just fine, thanks. To make IH baseline they'd have to lower the damage of the clone's ambushes, and if they did that then why even bother giving the clones ambushes to begin with? > > > > > >3 clone greatsword ambush > > Well there's your problem, I was referring to my axe clones. Greatsword clones though, bleh. They really need to go back to the drawing board with that ambush. > > > > > @Hackuuna.4085 said: > > > At this point I'd welcome IH being made baseline even if adjustments have to occur to the damage output. From a WvW perspective Elusive Mind is pretty hard not to take and I can see where the argument comes that IH would add to the Mirage concept. > > > > Again I ask: Why would you want IH made baseline when they'd have to reduce the damage to make that happen? Making your clones hit a little harder is all IH does. > > AS FAR AS I KNOW, all clones have the same damage reduction, meaning axe ambush for clones isn't hitting hard either. Proof me wrong, but i recall my axe clones doin 50-100 damage each. Only thing which hits hard are Conditions. We allready got scepter mentioning that clones do half of condi duration, even if IH isn't baseline. Scepter ambush for example is allready designed arround IH. > > Making IH Baseline without reducing dmg Numbers of clones would be ok. > > I go a step further and say, increase damage numbers on Ambush attacks for clones. Make em scale equal to Shatter. Example sword ambush > > [0 clones; 100% power] > [1 clones; 140% Power] > [2 clones; 170% Power] > [3 clones; 190% Power] > > Last time (chrono), we got a sustain/utility Tool BASELINE (F5). This time i want a damage multiplicator BASELINE. > > We deserve this. > > GS clones had their power damage buffed for their ambush attack only, on account of that ambush attack having no conditions or CC. Don't recally off the top of my head how much their damage was buffed though, but it was only for GS clones, and only on the GS ambush. Also, your scaling is awful. It ensures that ambush attacks would be worthless without 3 illusions out. If you went with the scaling route, adding additional clones should reduce the %power damage of each attack by a bit, but overall the total damage done would still increase. But under your proposed scaling, having more illusions not only procs more attacks, but also makes each individual attack significantly stronger. I find it interesting that you propose making it equal to shatters, when the damage coefficient of MW actually decreases as you get more illusions out, yet you propose the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantatus.4065 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @Bod.8261 said: > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > Can anyone say why they think it needs to be removed? Cant imagine a reason except balancing, which shouldnt be an arguement. > Why can't balancing be an argument? > > As others have said before: > As long as IH exists, Ambushes will be balanced around potentially having 3 clones performing them along with the mesmer. > If we make IH baseline, this gets an even bigger problem. > We'd rather have strong Ambushes. Only if ambush damage has to scale linearly. One of the issues with mesmer's damage balance has always been that it can be incredibly sporadic due to how many and what illusions you have available (leading to the prevalence of builds revolving around keeping as many phantasms up as long as you can). In the case of ambushes, the choice doesn't have to be between balancing the damage around no clones (therefore becoming really powerful if you have three clones) or balancing it around having three clones (therefore becoming really weak when you don't). A better solution would be to have it so rather than all clones do equal ambush damage, the damage of clones scales based on how many are out. For example: Currently all cones do 1x damage, which means each three clones will do triple the damage of just one. Instead, it could be made so the first clone does 1.5x damage, the second increases it by 1, and the third by .5. So, each successive clone reduces the damage of the previous one to reach the same point and so there is less of a difference between having one or having three clones. Obviously this is just an example, but the idea is that the damage would be more front-loaded, which means it could be balanced around a more central and more accessible point. Depending on how the numbers are done, balance could be focused on having two clones out rather than three since the third won't be as big of a difference as it is now. Or, for even more consistency, they could make it so the clone portion of an ambush always does the same damage, it's just divided up among how many clones are available (even taking phantasms into account). Or, for more flashiness, am ambush could make it so extra clones are summoned to do the ambush and immediately disappear after. Or, they could significantly reduce the damage from clones in favor of giving the mirage more damage. Regardless, I'm not sure I see this as a good reason to do away with the mechanic entirely since so much of the mesmer's damage scales similarly and seems to be something larger than just IH. It's also not a mechanic that is purely about damage. I still say removing this mechanic would make mirage bland and less differentiated from the mesmer, and if it's deemed to be necessary to be removed, it should not be done without something better being put in its place. I also think there are much better solutions than completely scrapping what's a cool mechanic from the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaboBabo.3581 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 > @OriOri.8724 said: > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > @LightningWolfTigerBear.6725 said: > > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > > > @LightningWolfTigerBear.6725 said: > > > > > I like my build just fine, thanks. To make IH baseline they'd have to lower the damage of the clone's ambushes, and if they did that then why even bother giving the clones ambushes to begin with? > > > > > > > >3 clone greatsword ambush > > > Well there's your problem, I was referring to my axe clones. Greatsword clones though, bleh. They really need to go back to the drawing board with that ambush. > > > > > > > @Hackuuna.4085 said: > > > > At this point I'd welcome IH being made baseline even if adjustments have to occur to the damage output. From a WvW perspective Elusive Mind is pretty hard not to take and I can see where the argument comes that IH would add to the Mirage concept. > > > > > > Again I ask: Why would you want IH made baseline when they'd have to reduce the damage to make that happen? Making your clones hit a little harder is all IH does. > > > > AS FAR AS I KNOW, all clones have the same damage reduction, meaning axe ambush for clones isn't hitting hard either. Proof me wrong, but i recall my axe clones doin 50-100 damage each. Only thing which hits hard are Conditions. We allready got scepter mentioning that clones do half of condi duration, even if IH isn't baseline. Scepter ambush for example is allready designed arround IH. > > > > Making IH Baseline without reducing dmg Numbers of clones would be ok. > > > > I go a step further and say, increase damage numbers on Ambush attacks for clones. Make em scale equal to Shatter. Example sword ambush > > > > [0 clones; 100% power] > > [1 clones; 140% Power] > > [2 clones; 170% Power] > > [3 clones; 190% Power] > > > > Last time (chrono), we got a sustain/utility Tool BASELINE (F5). This time i want a damage multiplicator BASELINE. > > > > We deserve this. > > > > > > GS clones had their power damage buffed for their ambush attack only, on account of that ambush attack having no conditions or CC. Don't recally off the top of my head how much their damage was buffed though, but it was only for GS clones, and only on the GS ambush. > > Also, your scaling is awful. It ensures that ambush attacks would be worthless without 3 illusions out. If you went with the scaling route, adding additional clones should reduce the %power damage of each attack by a bit, but overall the total damage done would still increase. But under your proposed scaling, having more illusions not only procs more attacks, but also makes each individual attack significantly stronger. I find it interesting that you propose making it equal to shatters, when the damage coefficient of MW actually decreases as you get more illusions out, yet you propose the opposite. I think u read that wrong, dont know how, but what ur suggesting is almost exactly what i wanted. The total damage of all attacks would be 100%, 140%, 170% or 190% Exmple sword ambush right now has 100% power scaling. lets say we deal 1000 damage with sword ambush. On my Suggestion when havin 1 clone , we would deal the 1000 damage and the clone would deal 400 damage. On 2 clones , we still deal 1000 damage on our own, and both clones deal 350 damage, for a total of 1700 damage. On 3 clones , still 1000 for us , and 300 for each clone, for a total of 1900 damage. OR (100% ur version) 0 clones - we deal 1000 damage = 1000 1 clone - we deal 700 , clone deals 700 = 1400 2 clones , we deal 566, both clones deal 566 = 1700 3 clones , we deal 475 , all three clones deal 475 = 1900 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Its that good that it can contest with the breakstun on dodge. Worthy of gm trait imo. I do believe however that it could either be completely removed and buff the ambushes or make it baseline and nerf the strong ambush skills. Leaving it as it is makes it harder to balance the ambushes but it provides meaningful choices to makes and adds on buildcrafting and diff builds. And i frankly dont know whats better or more exciting. I do believe tho certain ambushes need abit more polish or a small buff still because i find them kinda weak even when you pick it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > @LightningWolfTigerBear.6725 said: > > I like my build just fine, thanks. To make IH baseline they'd have to lower the damage of the clone's ambushes, and if they did that then why even bother giving the clones ambushes to begin with? > > which damage? Probably the 400 extra damage if u manage to get an 3 clone greatsword ambush. WORTH IT > How much dmg does GS auto attack again ? Gs ambush deletes ppl with clones using it alongside you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bod.8261 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 ... > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > Daredevil dodge ; move further, mirage dodge , dont move. > > Its the Complete opposite. You got that wrong. Thats no the point of the mechanic. See it like this: Daredevil: Dodge = automove, but different animation instantly deal damage + short damage buff or gain mobility + defensive buff (trait choice) Also: various effects that give back endurance and more max endurance = more dodges when you need them Mirage: Dodge = 1s superspeed, but no actual inherent mobility, you can still move a similar distance (and you will, if you want to get out of AoE) then gain a short timeframe in which you ~~can~~ should perform an attack that does more damage or gives mobility (depends on weapon used, no real choice here | if you don't use it right away, you waste it: that's not a choice, it's just a needlessly complex mechanic) Also: various effects that spawn an object at an often random location which you have to run over which then performs another dodge instantly, said mirrors also only last for a short time = more dodges It's essentially the same, but Mirage is just clunkier and worse in every way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exciton.8942 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 > @zealex.9410 said: > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > @LightningWolfTigerBear.6725 said: > > > I like my build just fine, thanks. To make IH baseline they'd have to lower the damage of the clone's ambushes, and if they did that then why even bother giving the clones ambushes to begin with? > > > > which damage? Probably the 400 extra damage if u manage to get an 3 clone greatsword ambush. WORTH IT > > How much dmg does GS auto attack again ? > > Gs ambush deletes ppl with clones using it alongside you. Can you tell me how? Just tested with marauder amulet. The clone split surge does like in total 700 damage full crit, 400 damage w/o crit. Even with 3 clones up, that is only like one small burst with at most 2000 damage. And good luck keeping up 3 clones in PvP. And my own split surge does like 10% more damage than just auto attacking.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esquilax.3491 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 I've always thought clones and phantasms should be seperate systems. It's wierd and un-intuitive for people learning the class because nowhere is it properly explained. I'm not saying you should have 3 clones and 3 phantasms because obviously that would be stupid. But maybe have one phantasm that is buffed and some clones or whatever. That's probably stupid too and I'm not a game designer but as a player I can see the problem with conflicting mechanics. As it stands though, this far into the game lifespan it will never be changed, so this post amounts to fluff/commentry but this is one of the main problems I feel mesmer has as a class particulary in PvE game mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 > @LightningWolfTigerBear.6725 said: > I like my build just fine, thanks. To make IH baseline they'd have to lower the damage of the clone's ambushes, and if they did that then why even bother giving the clones ambushes to begin with? For the mesmer, the cosmetic effect **matters**. The logic behind giving mirage a special dodge mechanic is that it was too easy to identify the 'real' mesmer by their dodges. Without IH, however, the same identification can come as soon as an ambush skill triggers - if you see the mesmer use an ambush skill and the clones don't, not only do you know which is the real mesmer, but you also know they're running a different grandmaster. What could be done is making it so that the clones get the **visual** effect of using an ambush skill baseline, but it's purely visual: the actual effect of these fake ambush skills is similar to what you'd get from the clone normally. Taking IH, on the other hand, gives them an actual evade frame and a proper ambush skill usage. There will probably still be cues that opposing players can use to identify the real mesmer, but it won't be as simple as "they're not using IH, go for the one that actually uses an ambush skill!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 > @Exciton.8942 said: > > @zealex.9410 said: > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > > @LightningWolfTigerBear.6725 said: > > > > I like my build just fine, thanks. To make IH baseline they'd have to lower the damage of the clone's ambushes, and if they did that then why even bother giving the clones ambushes to begin with? > > > > > > which damage? Probably the 400 extra damage if u manage to get an 3 clone greatsword ambush. WORTH IT > > > How much dmg does GS auto attack again ? > > > > Gs ambush deletes ppl with clones using it alongside you. > > Can you tell me how? > > Just tested with marauder amulet. The clone split surge does like in total 700 damage full crit, 400 damage w/o crit. > > Even with 3 clones up, that is only like one small burst with at most 2000 damage. > > And good luck keeping up 3 clones in PvP. > > And my own split surge does like 10% more damage than just auto attacking.... The clonesndo around 2k and u do around 3k. That 5k. Soawning clones is stupidly easy with mirage. U can spawn 3 in a matter of 2 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exciton.8942 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 > @zealex.9410 said: > > @Exciton.8942 said: > > > @zealex.9410 said: > > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > > > @LightningWolfTigerBear.6725 said: > > > > > I like my build just fine, thanks. To make IH baseline they'd have to lower the damage of the clone's ambushes, and if they did that then why even bother giving the clones ambushes to begin with? > > > > > > > > which damage? Probably the 400 extra damage if u manage to get an 3 clone greatsword ambush. WORTH IT > > > > How much dmg does GS auto attack again ? > > > > > > Gs ambush deletes ppl with clones using it alongside you. > > > > Can you tell me how? > > > > Just tested with marauder amulet. The clone split surge does like in total 700 damage full crit, 400 damage w/o crit. > > > > Even with 3 clones up, that is only like one small burst with at most 2000 damage. > > > > And good luck keeping up 3 clones in PvP. > > > > And my own split surge does like 10% more damage than just auto attacking.... > > The clonesndo around 2k and u do around 3k. That 5k. Soawning clones is stupidly easy with mirage. U can spawn 3 in a matter of 2 seconds. It is haaaard to do 3k on your own. You probably have 20 stacks of might or something. I tried myself, you do like 2k yourself if every hit crits. So we are talking about 4k max if you get everything crit. More likely it will be in the range of 3-4k. And as I said, it is only 10% more damage than simply auto attacking. For 3-4k damage, it is comparable to a 1-2 clone F1 shatter damage. Is it really worth it? To do this, you have to keep up 3 clones, which is again super hard. Generating clone is obviously not as hard. But what does it take? I guess you mirror blade into double dodge? That is also a high cost. And again, you have nothing to keep up these clones that die to 1 auto attack or any cleave damage. So on paper, it is already very mediocre. In my actual combat experience, there is 0 incentive to use GS ambush. It is just so trash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantatus.4065 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 > @Bod.8261 said: > ... > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > Daredevil dodge ; move further, mirage dodge , dont move. > > > > Its the Complete opposite. > You got that wrong. Thats no the point of the mechanic. See it like this: > > Daredevil: > Dodge = automove, but different animation > instantly deal damage + short damage buff or gain mobility + defensive buff (trait choice) > Also: various effects that give back endurance and more max endurance = more dodges when you need them > > Mirage: > Dodge = 1s superspeed, but no actual inherent mobility, you can still move a similar distance (and you will, if you want to get out of AoE) > then gain a short timeframe in which you ~~can~~ should perform an attack that does more damage or gives mobility (depends on weapon used, no real choice here | if you don't use it right away, you waste it: that's not a choice, it's just a needlessly complex mechanic) > Also: various effects that spawn an object at an often random location which you have to run over which then performs another dodge instantly, said mirrors also only last for a short time = more dodges > > It's essentially the same, but Mirage is just clunkier and worse in every way. > I wouldn't say worse necessarily. One of the advantages it provides us is not having to move back into position after a dodge. If I'm using sword/axe, I can frequently stand still and evade an AoE attack while continuing to do damage, whereas a normal dodge roll would require me running back into combat losing DPS in the meanwhile. > @draxynnic.3719 said: > > For the mesmer, the cosmetic effect **matters**. The logic behind giving mirage a special dodge mechanic is that it was too easy to identify the 'real' mesmer by their dodges. Without IH, however, the same identification can come as soon as an ambush skill triggers - if you see the mesmer use an ambush skill and the clones don't, not only do you know which is the real mesmer, but you also know they're running a different grandmaster. > > What could be done is making it so that the clones get the **visual** effect of using an ambush skill baseline, but it's purely visual: the actual effect of these fake ambush skills is similar to what you'd get from the clone normally. Taking IH, on the other hand, gives them an actual evade frame and a proper ambush skill usage. There will probably still be cues that opposing players can use to identify the real mesmer, but it won't be as simple as "they're not using IH, go for the one that actually uses an ambush skill!" If they move it baseline, I don't think it should just be the visual, but the evade frame as well. If mirage is meant to be more about using clones, giving clones a little more survivability (particularly in PvP) is important. It's one of the - if not the only - ways we have of protecting our clones. I also don't think it's too powerful considering how fragile they are otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coulter.2315 Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 > @Exciton.8942 said: > > @zealex.9410 said: > > > @Exciton.8942 said: > > > > @zealex.9410 said: > > > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > > > > @LightningWolfTigerBear.6725 said: > > > > > > I like my build just fine, thanks. To make IH baseline they'd have to lower the damage of the clone's ambushes, and if they did that then why even bother giving the clones ambushes to begin with? > > > > > > > > > > which damage? Probably the 400 extra damage if u manage to get an 3 clone greatsword ambush. WORTH IT > > > > > How much dmg does GS auto attack again ? > > > > > > > > Gs ambush deletes ppl with clones using it alongside you. > > > > > > Can you tell me how? > > > > > > Just tested with marauder amulet. The clone split surge does like in total 700 damage full crit, 400 damage w/o crit. > > > > > > Even with 3 clones up, that is only like one small burst with at most 2000 damage. > > > > > > And good luck keeping up 3 clones in PvP. > > > > > > And my own split surge does like 10% more damage than just auto attacking.... > > > > The clonesndo around 2k and u do around 3k. That 5k. Soawning clones is stupidly easy with mirage. U can spawn 3 in a matter of 2 seconds. > > It is haaaard to do 3k on your own. You probably have 20 stacks of might or something. I tried myself, you do like 2k yourself if every hit crits. So we are talking about 4k max if you get everything crit. More likely it will be in the range of 3-4k. And as I said, it is only 10% more damage than simply auto attacking. > > For 3-4k damage, it is comparable to a 1-2 clone F1 shatter damage. Is it really worth it? > > To do this, you have to keep up 3 clones, which is again super hard. Generating clone is obviously not as hard. But what does it take? I guess you mirror blade into double dodge? That is also a high cost. > > And again, you have nothing to keep up these clones that die to 1 auto attack or any cleave damage. So on paper, it is already very mediocre. In my actual combat experience, there is 0 incentive to use GS ambush. It is just so trash. The GS Ambush gives you insane might when you have 3 clones, you spike to 20+ easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Exciton.8942 said: > > @zealex.9410 said: > > > @Exciton.8942 said: > > > > @zealex.9410 said: > > > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > > > > @LightningWolfTigerBear.6725 said: > > > > > > I like my build just fine, thanks. To make IH baseline they'd have to lower the damage of the clone's ambushes, and if they did that then why even bother giving the clones ambushes to begin with? > > > > > > > > > > which damage? Probably the 400 extra damage if u manage to get an 3 clone greatsword ambush. WORTH IT > > > > > How much dmg does GS auto attack again ? > > > > > > > > Gs ambush deletes ppl with clones using it alongside you. > > > > > > Can you tell me how? > > > > > > Just tested with marauder amulet. The clone split surge does like in total 700 damage full crit, 400 damage w/o crit. > > > > > > Even with 3 clones up, that is only like one small burst with at most 2000 damage. > > > > > > And good luck keeping up 3 clones in PvP. > > > > > > And my own split surge does like 10% more damage than just auto attacking.... > > > > The clonesndo around 2k and u do around 3k. That 5k. Soawning clones is stupidly easy with mirage. U can spawn 3 in a matter of 2 seconds. > > It is haaaard to do 3k on your own. You probably have 20 stacks of might or something. I tried myself, you do like 2k yourself if every hit crits. So we are talking about 4k max if you get everything crit. More likely it will be in the range of 3-4k. And as I said, it is only 10% more damage than simply auto attacking. > > For 3-4k damage, it is comparable to a 1-2 clone F1 shatter damage. Is it really worth it? > > To do this, you have to keep up 3 clones, which is again super hard. Generating clone is obviously not as hard. But what does it take? I guess you mirror blade into double dodge? That is also a high cost. > > And again, you have nothing to keep up these clones that die to 1 auto attack or any cleave damage. So on paper, it is already very mediocre. In my actual combat experience, there is 0 incentive to use GS ambush. It is just so trash. Idk i just use mantra of pain summon 3 clones and insta use it. Enemy is 4k maybe 5k lower he has a fucktone of vuln stacks and i have a truckload of might stacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bod.8261 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Cantatus.4065 said: > I wouldn't say worse necessarily. One of the advantages it provides us is not having to move back into position after a dodge. If I'm using sword/axe, I can frequently stand still and evade an AoE attack while continuing to do damage, whereas a normal dodge roll would require me running back into combat losing DPS in the meanwhile. Were has "moving back into position" ever happened? You can dodge into a wall or sideways and just keep attacking. With sword 2 you already have a tool for "stand in AoEs and keep attacking". A lot of AoE effects will last so long you will have to move eventually. More importantly: When the group moves, you should as well, or you'll miss out on boons. In PvP your foes will also move constantly, there's no benefit to standing still - even more when you're wielding a melee weapon. Back on topic: If they make the visual part of IH baseline (and maybe the dodge part), but make it deal no extra damage/condi, and give us a new GM instead, I would have no problem with that. It's nice as a flavor and maybe fools some people in PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Bod.8261 said: > > @Cantatus.4065 said: > > I wouldn't say worse necessarily. One of the advantages it provides us is not having to move back into position after a dodge. If I'm using sword/axe, I can frequently stand still and evade an AoE attack while continuing to do damage, whereas a normal dodge roll would require me running back into combat losing DPS in the meanwhile. > Were has "moving back into position" ever happened? You can dodge into a wall or sideways and just keep attacking. > With sword 2 you already have a tool for "stand in AoEs and keep attacking". > *A lot of AoE effects will last so long you will have to move eventually. More importantly: When the group moves, you should as well, or you'll miss out on boons.* > In PvP your foes will also move constantly, there's no benefit to standing still - even more when you're wielding a melee weapon. > > Back on topic: > If they make the visual part of IH baseline (and maybe the dodge part), but make it deal no extra damage/condi, and give us a new GM instead, I would have no problem with that. > It's nice as a flavor and maybe fools some people in PvP. Most, if not all AoEs, outlast a 1s mirage cloak actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantatus.4065 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Bod.8261 said: > > @Cantatus.4065 said: > > I wouldn't say worse necessarily. One of the advantages it provides us is not having to move back into position after a dodge. If I'm using sword/axe, I can frequently stand still and evade an AoE attack while continuing to do damage, whereas a normal dodge roll would require me running back into combat losing DPS in the meanwhile. > Were has "moving back into position" ever happened? You can dodge into a wall or sideways and just keep attacking. > With sword 2 you already have a tool for "stand in AoEs and keep attacking". > A lot of AoE effects will last so long you will have to move eventually. More importantly: When the group moves, you should as well, or you'll miss out on boons. > In PvP your foes will also move constantly, there's no benefit to standing still - even more when you're wielding a melee weapon. That's why you chain Mirage Cloaks and evades: Dodge + Blurred Frenzy + Dodge + Illusionary Riposte can give you a pretty good stretch of invulnerability. You can even add Illusionary Ambush, though that's not entirely reliable in terms of keeping you in melee range. And, of course, there's always Distortion. I'm not saying it's always beneficial or always the best option nor that it's perfect, but there can be advantages in the right situations, which is why I don't think it's "worse in every way." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abelisk.4527 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Exciton.8942 said: > > @zealex.9410 said: > > > @Exciton.8942 said: > > > > @zealex.9410 said: > > > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > > > > @LightningWolfTigerBear.6725 said: > > > > > > I like my build just fine, thanks. To make IH baseline they'd have to lower the damage of the clone's ambushes, and if they did that then why even bother giving the clones ambushes to begin with? > > > > > > > > > > which damage? Probably the 400 extra damage if u manage to get an 3 clone greatsword ambush. WORTH IT > > > > > How much dmg does GS auto attack again ? > > > > > > > > Gs ambush deletes ppl with clones using it alongside you. > > > > > > Can you tell me how? > > > > > > Just tested with marauder amulet. The clone split surge does like in total 700 damage full crit, 400 damage w/o crit. > > > > > > Even with 3 clones up, that is only like one small burst with at most 2000 damage. > > > > > > And good luck keeping up 3 clones in PvP. > > > > > > And my own split surge does like 10% more damage than just auto attacking.... > > > > The clonesndo around 2k and u do around 3k. That 5k. Soawning clones is stupidly easy with mirage. U can spawn 3 in a matter of 2 seconds. > > It is haaaard to do 3k on your own. You probably have 20 stacks of might or something. I tried myself, you do like 2k yourself if every hit crits. So we are talking about 4k max if you get everything crit. More likely it will be in the range of 3-4k. And as I said, it is only 10% more damage than simply auto attacking. > > For 3-4k damage, it is comparable to a 1-2 clone F1 shatter damage. Is it really worth it? > > To do this, you have to keep up 3 clones, which is again super hard. Generating clone is obviously not as hard. But what does it take? I guess you mirror blade into double dodge? That is also a high cost. > > And again, you have nothing to keep up these clones that die to 1 auto attack or any cleave damage. So on paper, it is already very mediocre. In my actual combat experience, there is 0 incentive to use GS ambush. It is just so trash. SkylightMoon recently posted a power Mirage build that allows for very easy clone gen. Dodge, Jaunt, Dodge/Jaunt and you have max clones. Illu Ambush = another clone. The heal refills half of your endurance, there's another dodge. Since Mirage Oasis is a Deception Skill, there's another clone. Oh, your endurance is back, another clone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 I want IH baseline mostly to act as a method to buff the clone damage build without buffing the rest of the class. 34k DPS is where I'd like most of the classes to be, and since the PVE phantasm mirage already hangs around that area, I don't want to buff it too much. The clone build, however, only does around 30k, and a 10% buff from Infinite Horizons is the kind of push the clone build needs. This... actually puts me at an odd place with the Mirage. On the one hand, there are a lot of traits/utilities that are unusable, and the mirrors are cumbersome, but on the other hand I don't like power creep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaboBabo.3581 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 New idea ; Leave IH as a Grandmaster, give Mirage a new style of shattering; Shatters dont destroy ur illusions anymore and only trigger the shatter effect arround the mirage, but with more range, hitting more targets. (Still counting living illusions for effect/traits etc) Radius : 360 Targets : 10(pve) , 7(wvw/spvp) New shatters F1 : Deal damage and apply confusion. Deal more damage and confusion for every active illuision 0;2confu , 1;4 confu 2;6 confu 3;8 confu Dmg like current F1 10 sec CD F2: Barrier and boons for u and allies, more for each illusion boons , protection, vigor ? 15 sec CD F3, stun and immobilize arround u more immobilize for each illusion 20 sec CD F4 Gain Mirage cloak and heal urself and allies. Heal more for every illusion active. 25 sec CD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bart.3687 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > New idea ; Leave IH as a Grandmaster, give Mirage a new style of shattering; > > Shatters dont destroy ur illusions anymore and only trigger the shatter effect arround the mirage, but with more range, hitting more targets. (Still counting living illusions for effect/traits etc) > Radius : 360 > Targets : 10(pve) , 7(wvw/spvp) > > New shatters > F1 : Deal damage and apply confusion. > Deal more damage and confusion for every active illuision > 0;2confu , 1;4 confu 2;6 confu 3;8 confu > Dmg like current F1 > 10 sec CD > > F2: Barrier and boons for u and allies, more for each illusion > boons , protection, vigor ? > 15 sec CD > > F3, stun and immobilize arround u > more immobilize for each illusion > 20 sec CD > > F4 Gain Mirage cloak and heal urself and allies. Heal more for every illusion active. > 25 sec CD These would need global icd or use some kind of resource, otherwise you could spam them too much. Also, I'm not sure if insta AoE effect around the caster only is a kind of rework i'd like to see. I find the idea a little boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaboBabo.3581 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @bart.3687 said: > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > New idea ; Leave IH as a Grandmaster, give Mirage a new style of shattering; > > > > Shatters dont destroy ur illusions anymore and only trigger the shatter effect arround the mirage, but with more range, hitting more targets. (Still counting living illusions for effect/traits etc) > > Radius : 360 > > Targets : 10(pve) , 7(wvw/spvp) > > > > New shatters > > F1 : Deal damage and apply confusion. > > Deal more damage and confusion for every active illuision > > 0;2confu , 1;4 confu 2;6 confu 3;8 confu > > Dmg like current F1 > > 10 sec CD > > > > F2: Barrier and boons for u and allies, more for each illusion > > boons , protection, vigor ? > > 15 sec CD > > > > F3, stun and immobilize arround u > > more immobilize for each illusion > > 20 sec CD > > > > F4 Gain Mirage cloak and heal urself and allies. Heal more for every illusion active. > > 25 sec CD > > These would need global icd or use some kind of resource, otherwise you could spam them too much. Also, I'm not sure if insta AoE effect around the caster only is a kind of rework i'd like to see. I find the idea a little boring. > forgot to mention global ICD, but was sure in my mind ; 3 seconds , maybe 5. The insta AoE effect arround the caster is currently given, i expand radius and targets only, to give mesmer some real AoE. Sure it's kind of boring, but it could implement new Playstyles. Think of this ; right now in an ranged fight , mesmer can shatter and his illusions will run to the target, meaning the mesmer is able to hit 3/4 damage potions, while staying ranged. With my change, ranged shatter is no option anymore. This is where Mirage's abilitys come in; The mobility from Jaunt illusionary etc help u gettin to ur Target for the shatter bombs. Mirage Advance woould be a REALLY good skills then. Spawn 3 ranged illusions, mirage advance in for the shatter bomb, go back to safety with second part. Btw Of course give those shatter flashy new animations . Like really Flashy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rank eleven monk.9502 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Any buff in PvP would make it seriously imbalanced, it's fine as it is - all 3 grandmaster traits are good, Dune Cloak coming in as close second after IH and EM. The only way to make it better in PvE is reworking / fixing / tweaking the current ambushes. Don't touch the trait itself imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mina Ion.7852 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Honestly, having it on my build and running through PoF with it, I can absolutely attest how very strong this Grandmaster can be. It should stay as is. Having this as baseline ON TOP of another Grandmaster would be OP as @#%. It's already very easy to throw double digit stacks of Confusion with three seconds onto a targeted mob. MIrrored Axes + Infinite Horizons + Shatter ends fights VERY fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaboBabo.3581 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @"Mina Ion.7852" said: > Honestly, having it on my build and running through PoF with it, I can absolutely attest how very strong this Grandmaster can be. It should stay as is. Having this as baseline ON TOP of another Grandmaster would be OP as @#%. It's already very easy to throw double digit stacks of Confusion with three seconds onto a targeted mob. MIrrored Axes + Infinite Horizons + Shatter ends fights VERY fast. I agree that in PvE its very strong due to targets standing still etc. In Pve u can easily hit 30 - 40 Stacks Confusion in a few seconds and burst mobs down like a lava. In PvP for example even if u run IH its not that strong, cause most ambushes are unreliable. Staff Ambush is an example, or Axe ambush. Staff Ambush never hits anything in Pvp or Wvw, and the Axes get dodged easily. The good one is the Sword Ambush, cause with IH u can do multiple interrupts, which can be crazy, but thats it. U will use Illusionary Ambush for this mostly in Pvp and WvW, cause u bascially NEED to take Elusive Mind right now. So even if there would be a new Grandmastertrait; u would probably not take in WvW or PvP, cause Elusive Mind is better. Now If we we look at the combination of Elusive Mind and IH beeing baseline, i dont think it's that Kind of broken, regadring to what the New Grandmaster would be. Look at Dune Cloak + IH for example ; i dont think it would be broken. Mirage was anounced to turn into one with its illusions, on BASE Mirage, not with a Grandmaster traited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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