Permanently Delete Arcane Thievery

[Axl.8924]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > How about:

> > First, delete Stealth and every single skill, trait an Rune that apply it.

> > THEN we can talk about removing something as neglectible as Arcane Thievery.

> Are you asking to delete thief as class? I approve :joy:

 

You can't delete stealth from thief that would be like hmm whats a good example for mes: Getting rid of your ccs from shatters and your evades from mirage, it would cripple you.

 

Thieves are much more dependant on stealth to get away and to reposition.

 

I think maybe nerfs to cd and deleting some of the stealth moves, maybe also nerf rifle if it's hitting too hard.

[Odik.4587]

> @"Ben K.6238" said:

> Wait, is Arcane Thievery actually good these days? Clearly I haven't been playing enough lately.

>

> Ever since release, I remember it being a garbage skill on a long cooldown that didn't even work most of the time. None of the tweaks ever seemed to fix the reliability problem, so I just gave up on it.

Its not that good , just fire weeber died to his own ~20 burns that got returned to him xD

Its completely useless for any power mesmer. I would find many other utilities that are way more important than it.

It has its use for cmirage (if someone still plays it) as it has as top priority resistance and possible condi cover/occasional cleanse.

@"Leonidrex.5649" Very little of your post makes sense to me, as always. :(

[Axl.8924]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Ben K.6238" said:

> > Wait, is Arcane Thievery actually good these days? Clearly I haven't been playing enough lately.

> >

> > Ever since release, I remember it being a garbage skill on a long cooldown that didn't even work most of the time. None of the tweaks ever seemed to fix the reliability problem, so I just gave up on it.

> Its not that good , just fire weeber died to his own ~20 burns that got returned to him xD

> Its completely useless for any power mesmer. I would find many other utilities that are way more important than it.

> It has its use for cmirage (if someone still plays it) as it has as top priority resistance and possible condi cover/occasional cleanse.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" Very little of your post makes sense to me, as always. :(

 

It sounds almost like it partially works like plague signet from necro except with the might rip and you don't eat other people's condis. I kinda wish now i could try mirage because i am interested.

[Fueki.4753]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > How about:

> > > First, delete Stealth and every single skill, trait an Rune that apply it.

> > > THEN we can talk about removing something as neglectible as Arcane Thievery.

> > Are you asking to delete thief as class? I approve :joy:

>

> You can't delete stealth from thief that would be like hmm whats a good example for mes: Getting rid of your ccs from shatters and your evades from mirage, it would cripple you.

>

> Thieves are much more dependant on stealth to get away and to reposition.

 

Thieves have there shadow steps and other mobility and evade skills.

That's enough active defense, they do **not** rely on Stealth.

And Mesmer (acutally all classes, but Mesmer most) needs to get some of it's CC shaved off. The game mode is called Player vs Player, not Player vs ragdoll.

Or just add break bars already...

Evade as a mechanic should also get a rework.

[Axl.8924]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > > How about:

> > > > First, delete Stealth and every single skill, trait an Rune that apply it.

> > > > THEN we can talk about removing something as neglectible as Arcane Thievery.

> > > Are you asking to delete thief as class? I approve :joy:

> >

> > You can't delete stealth from thief that would be like hmm whats a good example for mes: Getting rid of your ccs from shatters and your evades from mirage, it would cripple you.

> >

> > Thieves are much more dependant on stealth to get away and to reposition.

>

> Thieves have there shadow steps and other mobility and evade skills.

> That's enough active defense, they do **not** rely on Stealth.

> And Mesmer (acutally all classes, but Mesmer most) needs to get some of it's CC shaved off. The game mode is called Player vs Player, not Player vs ragdoll.

> Or just add break bars already...

> Evade as a mechanic should also get a rework.

 

True some of the thieves abuse stealth, but some stuff like hide in shadows is built in, and core thief gets condies off with stealth, so while they got evades there is a reason why they have both access to mobility and stealth, backstab for instance is used with stealth due to positioning, if you get rid of stealth, people would see you from a mile away.

 

I think we could see some shaves of shadowsteps and teleports though, maybe cd increases and reduction of the amount of teleports and shadow steps.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"Ben K.6238" said:

> > > Wait, is Arcane Thievery actually good these days? Clearly I haven't been playing enough lately.

> > >

> > > Ever since release, I remember it being a garbage skill on a long cooldown that didn't even work most of the time. None of the tweaks ever seemed to fix the reliability problem, so I just gave up on it.

> > Its not that good , just fire weeber died to his own ~20 burns that got returned to him xD

> > Its completely useless for any power mesmer. I would find many other utilities that are way more important than it.

> > It has its use for cmirage (if someone still plays it) as it has as top priority resistance and possible condi cover/occasional cleanse.

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" Very little of your post makes sense to me, as always. :(

>

> It sounds almost like it partially works like plague signet from necro except with the might rip and you don't eat other people's condis. I kinda wish now i could try mirage because i am interested.

 

Basically Plague Signet with throw five conditions from the necromancer onto the target, instantly, and it breaks stun.

 

Arcane Thievery with throw three conditions from the mesmer onto the target, and steal three boons from the target at their remaining duration. It also always inflicts slow, and always grants quickness provided it hits. It has a very fast 1/4 second cooldown.

 

Nothing stopping you from trying Cmirage.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > > How about:

> > > > First, delete Stealth and every single skill, trait an Rune that apply it.

> > > > THEN we can talk about removing something as neglectible as Arcane Thievery.

> > > Are you asking to delete thief as class? I approve :joy:

> >

> > You can't delete stealth from thief that would be like hmm whats a good example for mes: Getting rid of your ccs from shatters and your evades from mirage, it would cripple you.

> >

> > Thieves are much more dependant on stealth to get away and to reposition.

>

> Thieves have there shadow steps and other mobility and evade skills.

> That's enough active defense, they do **not** rely on Stealth.

> And Mesmer (acutally all classes, but Mesmer most) needs to get some of it's CC shaved off. The game mode is called Player vs Player, not Player vs ragdoll.

> Or just add break bars already...

> Evade as a mechanic should also get a rework.

 

There's enough on certain thief builds to not need stealth but you'd have to redesign at least 25% of all thief skills and traits as well as weapons if you were to "just delete stealth 4Head". That's without mentioning that every thief would be a speedy shadow stepping evade build which I don't know if you've seen is already getting flak on the forums on almost every build.

 

Mesmer I think they should have always gone for low duration (0.25-0.5s) CC but fast casts for interrupting....of course this would mean having worthwhile interrupt traits but the last decent one got nerfed into oblivion. Maybe 1 long stun somewhere but that's about it.

 

Evade too? Honestly if that's getting the stick I'm surprised no mention of blocks being hit with reworks. You evade an attack you're not hit but block you're still hit so it should only reduce damage to 20% of what you would take, sounds fair? Unless of course you play a class that relies on blocks.

 

For the record the only thing I think needs looking at is stealth needs to be prevented from going on for over 5s and mesmer CC to be used more for interrupting (short cast, short duration) and restore some teeth into interrupt play styles through traits.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"Ben K.6238" said:

> > > Wait, is Arcane Thievery actually good these days? Clearly I haven't been playing enough lately.

> > >

> > > Ever since release, I remember it being a garbage skill on a long cooldown that didn't even work most of the time. None of the tweaks ever seemed to fix the reliability problem, so I just gave up on it.

> > Its not that good , just fire weeber died to his own ~20 burns that got returned to him xD

> > Its completely useless for any power mesmer. I would find many other utilities that are way more important than it.

> > It has its use for cmirage (if someone still plays it) as it has as top priority resistance and possible condi cover/occasional cleanse.

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" Very little of your post makes sense to me, as always. :(

>

> It sounds almost like it partially works like plague signet from necro except with the might rip and you don't eat other people's condis. I kinda wish now i could try mirage because i am interested.

 

It has different functions for different matchups,

cmirage vs cmirage you can win/lose it by good AT.

Fire weaver is unwinnable unless weaver its 10+ fire and doesnt cleanse.

Warrior to slow and steal might.

Holo to steal stab/might and go on the offensive ( holo is easy matchup anyways )

Necro depends on the build but its not very good, cant throw back fear. you can reliably steal necros stab, thats nice.

Ranger not very good.

FB too much boos, not very good.

Rev, almost useless 90% its evaded.

Thief its compleatly useless, you will never land it.

[Axl.8924]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > > > How about:

> > > > > First, delete Stealth and every single skill, trait an Rune that apply it.

> > > > > THEN we can talk about removing something as neglectible as Arcane Thievery.

> > > > Are you asking to delete thief as class? I approve :joy:

> > >

> > > You can't delete stealth from thief that would be like hmm whats a good example for mes: Getting rid of your ccs from shatters and your evades from mirage, it would cripple you.

> > >

> > > Thieves are much more dependant on stealth to get away and to reposition.

> >

> > Thieves have there shadow steps and other mobility and evade skills.

> > That's enough active defense, they do **not** rely on Stealth.

> > And Mesmer (acutally all classes, but Mesmer most) needs to get some of it's CC shaved off. The game mode is called Player vs Player, not Player vs ragdoll.

> > Or just add break bars already...

> > Evade as a mechanic should also get a rework.

>

> There's enough on certain thief builds to not need stealth but you'd have to redesign at least 25% of all thief skills and traits as well as weapons if you were to "just delete stealth 4Head". That's without mentioning that every thief would be a speedy shadow stepping evade build which I don't know if you've seen is already getting flak on the forums on almost every build.

>

> Mesmer I think they should have always gone for low duration (0.25-0.5s) CC but fast casts for interrupting....of course this would mean having worthwhile interrupt traits but the last decent one got nerfed into oblivion. Maybe 1 long stun somewhere but that's about it.

>

> Evade too? Honestly if that's getting the stick I'm surprised no mention of blocks being hit with reworks. You evade an attack you're not hit but block you're still hit so it should only reduce damage to 20% of what you would take, sounds fair? Unless of course you play a class that relies on blocks.

>

> For the record the only thing I think needs looking at is stealth needs to be prevented from going on for over 5s and mesmer CC to be used more for interrupting (short cast, short duration) and restore some teeth into interrupt play styles through traits.

 

I kinda like that actually meaningful changes for thief hmm hopefully though since thieves are kinda squishy just like mesmers and depend on evade frames and escaping to reset, but problem is that they have infinite resets and some classes like necro don't do well vs them and mes have trouble probably vs the infinite resets.

 

Trying to smash the annoying gnat of a thief and he made a mistake? reset. I think at some point, you should pay dearly for your mistakes.> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"Ben K.6238" said:

> > > > Wait, is Arcane Thievery actually good these days? Clearly I haven't been playing enough lately.

> > > >

> > > > Ever since release, I remember it being a garbage skill on a long cooldown that didn't even work most of the time. None of the tweaks ever seemed to fix the reliability problem, so I just gave up on it.

> > > Its not that good , just fire weeber died to his own ~20 burns that got returned to him xD

> > > Its completely useless for any power mesmer. I would find many other utilities that are way more important than it.

> > > It has its use for cmirage (if someone still plays it) as it has as top priority resistance and possible condi cover/occasional cleanse.

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" Very little of your post makes sense to me, as always. :(

> >

> > It sounds almost like it partially works like plague signet from necro except with the might rip and you don't eat other people's condis. I kinda wish now i could try mirage because i am interested.

>

> It has different functions for different matchups,

> cmirage vs cmirage you can win/lose it by good AT.

> Fire weaver is unwinnable unless weaver its 10+ fire and doesnt cleanse.

> Warrior to slow and steal might.

> Holo to steal stab/might and go on the offensive ( holo is easy matchup anyways )

> Necro depends on the build but its not very good, cant throw back fear. you can reliably steal necros stab, thats nice.

> Ranger not very good.

> FB too much boos, not very good.

> Rev, almost useless 90% its evaded.

> Thief its compleatly useless, you will never land it.

 

Sounds about right but doesn't rev also have some builds that spam Lotsa boons? not sure how well they generate might.

 

I imagine it would be hard to fight firebrand without necro to keep on boon corrupting with you so you can keep stripping their buffs while also stealing, but even then, they have so many covers and the ability to turn condis to boon so even if you hit them with AT they can easily turn all those condis burns confusion whatever into boons. Not sure if there is a reasonable way to beat firebrand with such hefty defenses.

 

Also with mirage how come you have trouble with them? you can put as much conditions as them no? sure illusions get destroyed but if you get next to them evade em and teleport away, unless weavers have more condi cleanses than even tempest, which would make them kinda bad fight vs any condi class.

 

[apharma.3741]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > > > > How about:

> > > > > > First, delete Stealth and every single skill, trait an Rune that apply it.

> > > > > > THEN we can talk about removing something as neglectible as Arcane Thievery.

> > > > > Are you asking to delete thief as class? I approve :joy:

> > > >

> > > > You can't delete stealth from thief that would be like hmm whats a good example for mes: Getting rid of your ccs from shatters and your evades from mirage, it would cripple you.

> > > >

> > > > Thieves are much more dependant on stealth to get away and to reposition.

> > >

> > > Thieves have there shadow steps and other mobility and evade skills.

> > > That's enough active defense, they do **not** rely on Stealth.

> > > And Mesmer (acutally all classes, but Mesmer most) needs to get some of it's CC shaved off. The game mode is called Player vs Player, not Player vs ragdoll.

> > > Or just add break bars already...

> > > Evade as a mechanic should also get a rework.

> >

> > There's enough on certain thief builds to not need stealth but you'd have to redesign at least 25% of all thief skills and traits as well as weapons if you were to "just delete stealth 4Head". That's without mentioning that every thief would be a speedy shadow stepping evade build which I don't know if you've seen is already getting flak on the forums on almost every build.

> >

> > Mesmer I think they should have always gone for low duration (0.25-0.5s) CC but fast casts for interrupting....of course this would mean having worthwhile interrupt traits but the last decent one got nerfed into oblivion. Maybe 1 long stun somewhere but that's about it.

> >

> > Evade too? Honestly if that's getting the stick I'm surprised no mention of blocks being hit with reworks. You evade an attack you're not hit but block you're still hit so it should only reduce damage to 20% of what you would take, sounds fair? Unless of course you play a class that relies on blocks.

> >

> > For the record the only thing I think needs looking at is stealth needs to be prevented from going on for over 5s and mesmer CC to be used more for interrupting (short cast, short duration) and restore some teeth into interrupt play styles through traits.

>

> I kinda like that actually meaningful changes for thief hmm hopefully though since thieves are kinda squishy just like mesmers and depend on evade frames and escaping to reset, but problem is that they have infinite resets and some classes like necro don't do well vs them and mes have trouble probably vs the infinite resets.

>

> Trying to smash the annoying gnat of a thief and he made a mistake? reset. I think at some point, you should pay dearly for your mistakes.

 

Play as either of those classes against a guardian/dragonhunter/firebrand worth their salt and it's as frustrating as it is for a necro vs thief/mesmer.

 

Different classes perform differently against certain other classes. Except rangers, engineers and warriors, at the moment they don't really have anything they straight up avoid like mesmer, necro, thief.

[Fueki.4753]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> Evade too? Honestly if that's getting the stick I'm surprised no mention of blocks being hit with reworks. You evade an attack you're not hit but block you're still hit so it should only reduce damage to 20% of what you would take, sounds fair? Unless of course you play a class that relies on blocks.

You realize that blocks already have counterplay with unblockable attacks, right?

 

My idea of Evade rework was that point blank AoE attacks that don't require targets can ignore evade.

There **needs** to be some kind of counterplay to evades, to stop it from being a broken mechanic.

Plus, there are so many people complaining about Mirages and Weavers, so it would help balancing those.

[Koen.1327]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > Evade too? Honestly if that's getting the stick I'm surprised no mention of blocks being hit with reworks. You evade an attack you're not hit but block you're still hit so it should only reduce damage to 20% of what you would take, sounds fair? Unless of course you play a class that relies on blocks.

> You realize that blocks already have counterplay with unblockable attacks, right?

>

> My idea of Evade rework was that point blank AoE attacks that don't require targets can ignore evade.

> There **needs** to be some kind of counterplay to evades, to stop it from being a broken mechanic.

> Plus, there are so many people complaining about Mirages and Weavers, so it would help balancing those.

 

not just dh has counter to evade but also guard, nec, ele (mostly these)

[Stand The Wall.6987]

it should be noted that arcane thievery steals the entire duration of boons. it will always get stab.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> it should be noted that arcane thievery steals the entire duration of boons. it will always get stab.

 

Arcane Thievery frequently fails to get stab. In fact if there are four boons and stab is one of them, I can almost depend on the skill to NOT get stab.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> it should be noted that arcane thievery steals the entire duration of boons. it will always get stab.

 

AT seems to just be random, I like the entire duration part.

Stealing 4min of swiftness from necro is hilarious

[apharma.3741]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > Evade too? Honestly if that's getting the stick I'm surprised no mention of blocks being hit with reworks. You evade an attack you're not hit but block you're still hit so it should only reduce damage to 20% of what you would take, sounds fair? Unless of course you play a class that relies on blocks.

> You realize that blocks already have counterplay with unblockable attacks, right?

>

> My idea of Evade rework was that point blank AoE attacks that don't require targets can ignore evade.

> There **needs** to be some kind of counterplay to evades, to stop it from being a broken mechanic.

> Plus, there are so many people complaining about Mirages and Weavers, so it would help balancing those.

 

Certain skills and effects cannot be evaded, they include:

Skills with area denial purposes: Line of Warding, Ring of Warding, Dragon's Maw, Unsteady Ground, Static Field, Slick Shoes, Spectral Wall, Temporal Curtain's crippled, and others.

The pull skill for Guardian (the chain skill of Binding Blade) and Hunter's Verdict for Dragonhunter (the chain skill of Spear of Justice) are also not able to be evaded.

Passive effects that trigger when the enemies are attacked: Retaliation, Auras

Certain environmental traps/events/objects.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Evade

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

1.2k range, unblockable, transfers 3 conditions, steals 3 boons, applies quickness to you, inflicts slow on your enemy and has cooldown of 20 seconds with 3 seconds of superspeed on top of that if you get Master of Manipulation trait.

Bet some necromancer weeps in a corner whenever they read that literal load of busted bullshit

[Odik.4587]

> @"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" said:

> 1.2k range, unblockable, transfers 3 conditions, steals 3 boons, applies quickness to you, inflicts slow on your enemy and has cooldown of 20 seconds with 3 seconds of superspeed on top of that if you get Master of Manipulation trait.

> Bet some necromancer weeps in a corner whenever they read that literal load of busted kitten

I dont remember you do anything but cry 24/7 in game and on forum. Lets actually nerf busted kitten as riposting shadows, since release busted as hell. By the way, it would be busted as heck if it would corrupt and had 2 charges ;)

[Odik.4587]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > it should be noted that arcane thievery steals the entire duration of boons. it will always get stab.

>

> Arcane Thievery frequently fails to get stab. In fact if there are four boons and stab is one of them, I can almost depend on the skill to NOT get stab.

You and many others simply cant understand this? It has trash priority and the best boons u can steal are somewhere in the end of the order. First to steal Aegis->retal->resistance and whenever fought holo with tons of their boons it never stole MIGHT/stab not even vigor when I really wanted this 40s xD

[Mogwai.4015]

On paper it sounds busted, but in the current meta, I think the skill is totally fine considering what else is out there. It is a pretty cool thematic skill with a potential for a big impact if used in the perfect situation, but that perfect situation is hard to line up and when it does, I think a big reward is totally valid. I'd still take Corrupt Boon over it any day, hands down.

[viquing.8254]

> @"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" said:

> 1.2k range, unblockable, transfers 3 conditions, steals 3 boons, applies quickness to you, inflicts slow on your enemy and has cooldown of 20 seconds with 3 seconds of superspeed on top of that if you get Master of Manipulation trait.

> Bet some necromancer weeps in a corner whenever they read that literal load of busted kitten

 

Yeah and what about :

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> You know that there currently are 3 in 1 skills who :

> * clear condi and does damage.

> * Breakstunt and CC and give mobility and does damage.

> * Stunbreak and evade and condiclear and restore main mechanic.

> * Stunbreak and teleport and condiclear.

> * Stunbreak and evade and condiclear.

> * Stunbreak and give superspeed and evade.

> * Stunbreak and remove condition.

> * Stunbreak and give boons.

> * Stunbreak and inflict condition.

> * Stunbreak and give class mechanic.

>

> + some of them have aoe effects.

> + many of them are instant (no cast.).

>

> Not even counting the trait who give passives effects under normal rotation.

> Mean if you count on AT as main condiclear you will have some suprises when opponent evade the swap.

>

> So you will better look at what you have on your, "like everyone 3 on 1 pegi 4 class", before crying about how the grass look better at the neighbor's garden.

 

Because you know that everyone have 3 on 1 skills who are more usefull than AT and more noob friendly ?

Moreover I use AT just to remove opponent boons as mantra of resolution is way better as condiclear and as said in @"Leonidrex.5649" explanation, the use cases where it really worth it aren't plethora. But you know you need to use it and play mesmer to figure this out. Which will probably never happen to 80% of whine about a class in this sub-forum./

[bravan.3876]

A better visible animation is all it needs right now. Other things can be discussed when the overall balance patch is out and this is suddenly for weird reasons the strongest skill in the game.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> A better visible animation is all it needs right now. Other things can be discussed when the overall balance patch is out and this is suddenly for weird reasons the strongest skill in the game.

 

they can make it 1/2s cast time. and make it more telegraphed.

But then again they shuld fix the stupid bugs this skill has -.-

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > it should be noted that arcane thievery steals the entire duration of boons. it will always get stab.

>

> Arcane Thievery frequently fails to get stab. In fact if there are four boons and stab is one of them, I can almost depend on the skill to NOT get stab.

 

Corrupt boon is very similar it mostly depends on how many boons are covering the stab. IF there are 4+ boons and stab is at the tail end of the line corrupt boon will not convert it. Stability is the last in the priority list for corrupt boon as far as i know. ITs just the fact that most classes dont have access to every boon in the game which makes it easier to hit on some professions and not so much on others. I want to think AT is the sam way.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > it should be noted that arcane thievery steals the entire duration of boons. it will always get stab.

> >

> > Arcane Thievery frequently fails to get stab. In fact if there are four boons and stab is one of them, I can almost depend on the skill to NOT get stab.

>

> Corrupt boon is very similar it mostly depends on how many boons are covering the stab. IF there are 4+ boons and stab is at the tail end of the line corrupt boon will not convert it. Stability is the last in the priority list for corrupt boon as far as i know. ITs just the fact that most classes dont have access to every boon in the game which makes it easier to hit on some professions and not so much on others. I want to think AT is the sam way.

 

I've never had this problem with either skill. haven't used AT as much tho, but CB? lol. I've used it in zergs and it still gets stab. you're trippin.