Can we just lower the damage of warrior?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Zenix.6198" said:

> Skills can be tellegraphed all they want...if they are spammable with a cooldown of essentially ~10 seconds, telegraphing doesnt matter.

 

The last time I fought a weaver on my reaper, the moment I went into shroud she chained evades for well over ten seconds, back to back, while also having superspeed and ccing me with focus. I was using speed rune.

 

Using a skill once every ten seconds hardly constitutes spam, and even if it did I would still find it hard to believe that its actually a problem. I have come to expect block and invuln and evade chains in the current meta, so it is especially surprising to me that, knowing most classes can do those block and evade and invuln chains, that we'd be here talking about getting hit for 4k from rush in particular and to a lesser extent warrior just generally hitting you hard.

 

Its silly. If this was about might gen alone and even magebane tether pulsing might too quickly, I'd be in agreement. Less so "everything warrior does hits so hard".

 

 

[Curennos.9307]

Having some acknowledgment from anet that Reckless Dodger probably should do zero damage would be nice.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> Having some acknowledgment from anet that Reckless Dodger probably should do zero damage would be nice.

 

Tbh just remove its ability to crit much like other trait proc effects got some time ago. It would still hit reasonably hard just not 4-5k hard. Thats too much instant damage for an adept minor of any kind with no icd considering its other effects (Unblockable, Grants might)

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > Having some acknowledgment from anet that Reckless Dodger probably should do zero damage would be nice.

>

> Tbh just remove its ability to crit much like other trait proc effects got some time ago. It would still hit reasonably hard just not 4-5k hard. Thats too much instant damage for an adept minor of any kind with no icd considering its other effects (Unblockable, Grants might)

 

Removing ability to crit would definitely be a better option than out right removal of damage.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> Removing ability to crit would definitely be a better option than out right removal of damage.

Either that or the minor stacks more might for longer so the trait doesnt depend on hitting people in a 180 range and has more utility, assuming the rest of the might gen comes down significantly.

 

[Curennos.9307]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > Having some acknowledgment from anet that Reckless Dodger probably should do zero damage would be nice.

> >

> > Tbh just remove its ability to crit much like other trait proc effects got some time ago. It would still hit reasonably hard just not 4-5k hard. Thats too much instant damage for an adept minor of any kind with no icd considering its other effects (Unblockable, Grants might)

>

> Removing ability to crit would definitely be a better option than out right removal of damage.

 

I don't quite follow your reasoning here. You auto-acquire the trait just by taking the strength line...which is fine, all traitlines have the 'you always get this' sort of thing.In the gw2skills editor, it has a ~1500 tooltip with full might and insight stacks...which, admittedly, is the high end of things, but not an entirely unreasonable assumption to make. That's basically a medium damage skill all on its own. 12-300 if you half the might/insight.

 

I'm against it doing any damage at all as a matter of principle. It's not 'this does too much damage and should be lowered', it's 'this should never have done damage at all in the first place'. Aside from the usual 'does 50 dmg' needed to proc hit effects and so forth.

 

As the trait is now, it's a worthy middle tier trait. Remove unblockable, slash the damage a little bit so it has 500-600 tooltip damage with no modifiers, maybe up the might duration and/or stacks a little bit, remove crit, and it'd still be a VERY worthy replacement for Brave Stride.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > > Having some acknowledgment from anet that Reckless Dodger probably should do zero damage would be nice.

> > >

> > > Tbh just remove its ability to crit much like other trait proc effects got some time ago. It would still hit reasonably hard just not 4-5k hard. Thats too much instant damage for an adept minor of any kind with no icd considering its other effects (Unblockable, Grants might)

> >

> > Removing ability to crit would definitely be a better option than out right removal of damage.

>

> I don't quite follow your reasoning here. You auto-acquire the trait just by taking the strength line...which is fine, all traitlines have the 'you always get this' sort of thing.In the gw2skills editor, it has a ~1500 tooltip with full might and insight stacks...which, admittedly, is the high end of things, but not an entirely unreasonable assumption to make. That's basically a medium damage skill all on its own. 12-300 if you half the might/insight.

>

> I'm against it doing any damage at all as a matter of principle. It's not 'this does too much damage and should be lowered', it's 'this should never have done damage at all in the first place'. Aside from the usual 'does 50 dmg' needed to proc hit effects and so forth.

>

> As the trait is now, it's a worthy middle tier trait. Remove unblockable, slash the damage a little bit so it has 500-600 tooltip damage with no modifiers, maybe up the might duration and/or stacks a little bit, remove crit, and it'd still be a VERY worthy replacement for Brave Stride.

 

I'm not against moving it to a chose able trait either, I just dont think removing 0% of the damage is the way to go.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"Zenix.6198" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > > As Poelala said, once you play against better players warriors becomes harder and harder to play. The attacks are telegraphed, the combos predictable. Warrior is one of the professions I like to say "you get out what you put in". If you get rocked by a warrior it's for one of two reasons

> > > >

> > > > 1. You need to learn warrior better and how to play against it

> > > > 2. The warrior has put in more practice than you and better understands their profession and how to play against yours.

> > > > 3. (Bonus) You got +1, but you should die no matter the profession.

> > > >

> > > > Warrior is strong no doubt but in the current meta it's about middle of the pack and fairly well balanced because it is a, believe it or not, player skilled based profession.

> > >

> > > I have over 10k matches played tyvm. Don't go off-topic.

> >

> > He's being serious though. If you lose to a Warrior it's because the Warrior earned it.

> >

> Oh please.....

> Warrior is the embodiment of power-creep.

> Between might thats 33% stronger, Attackers insight and forceful Greatsword warriors can get up to 1465 extra power.

> Thats basically like equipping an additional Power amulet.

>

> Getting hit by a single burst skill can essentially make or break a duel.....Since it doesnt only give the warrior a massive dmg boost but also a metric kitten-ton of sustain (healing and endurance regen) from literally 1 trait. No need for Healing Power whatsoever. So please Cut the "player skill based performance". Its cheese.

>

> But then again, Most classes evolve around cheese these days....Weaver included.

> And before People give me unneeded dueling advice against Warriors: As a weaver I generally don't strugle against the class in 1v1s .....all I'm saying is, that its a cheesy playstyle that literally relies on hitting 1 ~~key~~ ability ....so please spare me the "BuT iT's So TeLeGrApHeD"-argument. Skills can be tellegraphed all they want...if they are spammable with a cooldown of essentially ~10 seconds, telegraphing doesnt matter.

>

>

>

 

You mean like how literally every other class in the game is also the "embodiment of power creep"? Warrior is not some outlying, singular circumstance of the power creep issue, it isn't even the prime contributing instigator of it, its a **result** of all the other power creep in the game for literally **every other** class.

 

I really, really don't understand this insistence people have with threads like these, or posts like this, where they fixate on **one** class as supposedly "the problem". The only plausible reason I can come up with is that they got killed by it. Which is where all of the Mirage hate, the Thief hate, the Soulbeast hate, the Holosmith, all of that, comes from. Has any one of the people who make such threads, or posts, ever taken a moment to consider that **all** of it is scuffed and ridiculous nonsense just **in general** because of the way ANet has power crept the game **in general** and **as a whole**?

 

Like I said, Warrior is not "the problem" or the singular issue, its **everything**. Every class; because **every** class has some trait, ability, build, etc that is just pure and utter nonsense and overtuned or cheesey memey ridiculousness because **that** is the meta in this game right now. The things that work **best** are basically cheese builds that exploits, in this case, sPvP and its faults.

 

As I said in a previous post, the biggest **prime** contributor to this problem is not any one particular class and no one particular class is more the "embodiment" of it than any other, but it is boons and how accessible they are. This means frequency, duration, and types. Types of boons like Might, Fury, Vigor, Protection, Regeneration and Stability are **very** accessible depending on class. Some may have more access to Might than they do Stability while others may have more access to Protection and Regeneration than they do Might (though not by a lot). The frequency in which these boons are applied exacerbates their duration in a significant way especially if any amount of Boon Duration/Concentration is used in a build. These factors have lead to Might uptime (for Tactics Warrior, Spellbreaker, Herald as well as others) being lengthy and allowing it to soar into the 20+ range for 80% or more of a fights duration, it has also lead to things like Soulbeast being able to drop 10 stacks of Stability on themselves and have it last for 35+ seconds (among other lengthy duration for other boons).

 

Bigger picture, people. Please. If anyone's concern is that the problems on Warrior, like Magebane Tether, Tactics Might generation and other things will go overlooked I **highly** doubt that will be the case, and even if they don't address those in such an excessive way that people might hope for, the power creep is likely to be mitigated anyway because of the alleged intention of trimming down damage **and** healing across the board. Which **again** I **highly** doubt Warrior will be excluded from that.

[Curennos.9307]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > > > Having some acknowledgment from anet that Reckless Dodger probably should do zero damage would be nice.

> > > >

> > > > Tbh just remove its ability to crit much like other trait proc effects got some time ago. It would still hit reasonably hard just not 4-5k hard. Thats too much instant damage for an adept minor of any kind with no icd considering its other effects (Unblockable, Grants might)

> > >

> > > Removing ability to crit would definitely be a better option than out right removal of damage.

> >

> > I don't quite follow your reasoning here. You auto-acquire the trait just by taking the strength line...which is fine, all traitlines have the 'you always get this' sort of thing.In the gw2skills editor, it has a ~1500 tooltip with full might and insight stacks...which, admittedly, is the high end of things, but not an entirely unreasonable assumption to make. That's basically a medium damage skill all on its own. 12-300 if you half the might/insight.

> >

> > I'm against it doing any damage at all as a matter of principle. It's not 'this does too much damage and should be lowered', it's 'this should never have done damage at all in the first place'. Aside from the usual 'does 50 dmg' needed to proc hit effects and so forth.

> >

> > As the trait is now, it's a worthy middle tier trait. Remove unblockable, slash the damage a little bit so it has 500-600 tooltip damage with no modifiers, maybe up the might duration and/or stacks a little bit, remove crit, and it'd still be a VERY worthy replacement for Brave Stride.

>

> I'm not against moving it to a chose able trait either, I just dont think removing 0% of the damage is the way to go.

 

That's fair. I'm just a former DrD who is salty at the beefy nerfs to Bound but somehow Reckless Dodger is fine to get just for taking the traitline and how the unblockable tag is thrown about like it's some really amazing thing to have on a skill (it is) but it also gets tossed onto a med-damage dodge roll for...reasons. And also might because why not. It really feels like one of the traits people are so used to having they don't realize how strong it is. I'd be content if they just swapped Brave Stride and Reckless Dodger as-is.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I think warrior is hard to balance effectively due to its strait forward playstyle which some would think would make it easier to balance.

Warrior especially if u spend some time playing it is pretty predictable and has pretty easy tells due to its basic playstyle when compared to most classes.

Imagine warrior damage was average,mobility average and sustain average. If it were so due to being so strait forward it wouldn't be viable anywhere nor would anyone pick it and that be a huge waste no? Warrior has to have some perks to offset its strait forward predictable playstyle no?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > > > > Having some acknowledgment from anet that Reckless Dodger probably should do zero damage would be nice.

> > > > >

> > > > > Tbh just remove its ability to crit much like other trait proc effects got some time ago. It would still hit reasonably hard just not 4-5k hard. Thats too much instant damage for an adept minor of any kind with no icd considering its other effects (Unblockable, Grants might)

> > > >

> > > > Removing ability to crit would definitely be a better option than out right removal of damage.

> > >

> > > I don't quite follow your reasoning here. You auto-acquire the trait just by taking the strength line...which is fine, all traitlines have the 'you always get this' sort of thing.In the gw2skills editor, it has a ~1500 tooltip with full might and insight stacks...which, admittedly, is the high end of things, but not an entirely unreasonable assumption to make. That's basically a medium damage skill all on its own. 12-300 if you half the might/insight.

> > >

> > > I'm against it doing any damage at all as a matter of principle. It's not 'this does too much damage and should be lowered', it's 'this should never have done damage at all in the first place'. Aside from the usual 'does 50 dmg' needed to proc hit effects and so forth.

> > >

> > > As the trait is now, it's a worthy middle tier trait. Remove unblockable, slash the damage a little bit so it has 500-600 tooltip damage with no modifiers, maybe up the might duration and/or stacks a little bit, remove crit, and it'd still be a VERY worthy replacement for Brave Stride.

> >

> > I'm not against moving it to a chose able trait either, I just dont think removing 0% of the damage is the way to go.

>

> That's fair. I'm just a former DrD who is salty at the beefy nerfs to Bound but somehow Reckless Dodger is fine to get just for taking the traitline and how the unblockable tag is thrown about like it's some really amazing thing to have on a skill (it is) but it also gets tossed onto a med-damage dodge roll for...reasons. And also might because why not. It really feels like one of the traits people are so used to having they don't realize how strong it is. I'd be content if they just swapped Brave Stride and Reckless Dodger as-is.

 

Although I agree thief has ate some very mindless nerfs over the years bounds 20 something percent decrease was justifiable as it only effected pvp if I remember right and it still hits as hard as it should when traited for imo. I'm not saying warrior should be doing 5k on dodges as that is definitely ridiculous but if the coefficients were lowered and it lost the ability to crit I'd be ok, warrior doesnt have the tricks thief has lol.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > Removing ability to crit would definitely be a better option than out right removal of damage.

> Either that or the minor stacks more might for longer so the trait doesnt depend on hitting people in a 180 range and has more utility, assuming the rest of the might gen comes down significantly.

>

 

I think it should not stack more might because when combined with might makes right you are making a loop of

Dodge

Gain might on hit

Gain endurance and health

Repeat

and while a single dodge will not likely give you another free dodge that seems a bit unhealthy

 

I dont think the any other dodge traits in the game become that beneficial in terms of endurance restoration and healing when combined together aside from maybe a few daredevil traits but then do we really want warrior dodges to be on par with daredevil dodges? That would seem really unfair to the thief class as a whole. even if might gen did drop in other areas... this actually makes my head hurt to think about this hard.

 

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> this actually makes my head hurt to think about this hard.

 

Now Imagine being a PvE Dev and having to do this for 9 classes js

 

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > Removing ability to crit would definitely be a better option than out right removal of damage.

> > Either that or the minor stacks more might for longer so the trait doesnt depend on hitting people in a 180 range and has more utility, assuming the rest of the might gen comes down significantly.

> >

>

> I think it should not stack more might because when combined with might makes right you are making a loop of

> Dodge

> Gain might on hit

> Gain endurance and health

> Repeat

> and while a single dodge will not likely give you another free dodge that seems a bit unhealthy

>

> I dont think the any other dodge traits in the game become that beneficial in terms of endurance restoration and healing when combined together aside from maybe a few daredevil traits but then do we really want warrior dodges to be on par with daredevil dodges? That would seem really unfair to the thief class as a whole. even if might gen did drop in other areas... this actually makes my head hurt to think about this hard.

>

>

 

Its difficult because its not an easy solution when considering the balance environment we've had for nearly 3 years now, ever since PoF released. Until we see what the wide ranging changes are, like if damage and healing gets nerfed significantly enough in the first pass with this coming balance patch, then we can't really know how things will be affected by changing the functionality of traits like Reckless Dodge and its utility effects along with some other rumored changes to CC skills that were hinted at by Cal.

 

Its basically just a little premature to have people dropping in and blasting the forums with anything relating to "REMOVE THIS EFFECT FROM THIS TRAIT/SKILL CUZ ITS TOO STRONG" when we haven't seen what the overall effect of the damage and healing reductions, should they hit, will be. Though I feel like these threads are popping up because some people are hoping to get a word in to try and "convince" the devs to hammer certain things, potentially unnecessarily, with huge utility nerfs without considering the bigger picture while almost purely basing their arguments on a class as it exists in a vacuum as opposed to its overall relation to other things in the game.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> You mean like how literally every other class in the game is also the "embodiment of power creep"? Warrior is not some outlying, singular circumstance of the power creep issue, it isn't even the prime contributing instigator of it, its a **result** of all the other power creep in the game for literally **every other** class.

> Like I said, Warrior is not "the problem" or the singular issue, its **everything**. Every class; because **every** class has some trait, ability, build, etc that is just pure and utter nonsense and overtuned or cheesey memey ridiculousness because **that** is the meta in this game right now. The things that work **best** are basically cheese builds that exploits, in this case, sPvP and its faults.

> As I said in a previous post, the biggest **prime** contributor to this problem is not any one particular class and no one particular class is more the "embodiment" of it than any other, but it is boons and how accessible they are.

 

Basically this, sans necro because they are the only class that dont have some kind of spec synergy that allows them contend in such a way that they are not constantly exploitable.

 

I am totally fine with scaling back things like shake it off and pistol whip if the classes that force me to need to slot those or die also get toned down. Either you buff necro so its just as crept, ot you nerf everything to the level that necro has been aggressively balanced at for the past couple of years.

 

 

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > Removing ability to crit would definitely be a better option than out right removal of damage.

> > > Either that or the minor stacks more might for longer so the trait doesnt depend on hitting people in a 180 range and has more utility, assuming the rest of the might gen comes down significantly.

> > >

> >

> > I think it should not stack more might because when combined with might makes right you are making a loop of

> > Dodge

> > Gain might on hit

> > Gain endurance and health

> > Repeat

> > and while a single dodge will not likely give you another free dodge that seems a bit unhealthy

> >

> > I dont think the any other dodge traits in the game become that beneficial in terms of endurance restoration and healing when combined together aside from maybe a few daredevil traits but then do we really want warrior dodges to be on par with daredevil dodges? That would seem really unfair to the thief class as a whole. even if might gen did drop in other areas... this actually makes my head hurt to think about this hard.

> >

> >

>

> Its difficult because its not an easy solution when considering the balance environment we've had for nearly 3 years now, ever since PoF released. Until we see what the wide ranging changes are, like if damage and healing gets nerfed significantly enough in the first pass with this coming balance patch, then we can't really know how things will be affected by changing the functionality of traits like Reckless Dodge and its utility effects along with some other rumored changes to CC skills that were hinted at by Cal.

 

I do think all balancing choices are hard and i try to look at them with realistic ideals based on communication from devs that includes Cal.

Generally brining a lot of things down and making a lot of cc skills like the cc skill in rampage wont exactly be a bad thing for the game.

 

But i know he also touched on boons and skills that do too many things at once in addition to cc skill damage reductions.

 

>

> Its basically just a little premature to have people dropping in and blasting the forums with anything relating to "REMOVE THIS EFFECT FROM THIS TRAIT/SKILL CUZ ITS TOO STRONG" when we haven't seen what the overall effect of the damage and healing reductions, should they hit, will be. Though I feel like these threads are popping up because some people are hoping to get a word in to try and "convince" the devs to hammer certain things, potentially unnecessarily, with huge utility nerfs without considering the bigger picture while almost purely basing their arguments on a class as it exists in a vacuum as opposed to its overall relation to other things in the game.

 

It might be premature but its understandable especially if other mechanics similarly exists or at one point did exists on other professions in some cases that have been changed/nerfed due to over performing and one got missed. It would be the norm for someone to say "Remove this from x skill" Cause its already been removed from a some what similar skill. (this is an example and might not exactly be the case with something like reckless dodge.)

 

To be clear, I just personally made my suggestion for reckless based on a lot of other trait's that use to deal several thousand points of critical damage, almost all of which have had their ability hit critical damage removed to solve the issue due to past complaints the reasoning why i even suggested such a thing. Cause its already been done and really this skill more or less just was not seen as an issue at the time cause it never commonly hit as hard as it does now (might creep). If not for the topic of skills that do damage while evading it likely still would have never been brought up however realistically it should be brought into question as to why it can hit so hard as a dodge passive even if you wont always land the hit.

 

Sadly devs know somethings will need to be hammered harder than others and players know that too. While i like to think most suggestions and or complaints are just trying to get a word in, at some point you have to take them with the perspective that something actually might be wrong in that area. The last thing we need is 1 elite or a few skills to be left dominating and in a broken state of op'ness for 6 months because something was missed especially after big changes.

 

What they could do is do public beta test for balance testing before a final release which would help a lot but they wont do that. The public will always find out if something is broken within a matter of days in some cases hours. Anet honestly as much as i appreciate their hard work need to leave some of their old core values from launch behind and stop letting them limit the game. Had they not held on to the "not splitting skills in game modes" for 7 years the game might not have ever reached this place and be in such a desperate state of major changes.

 

[Oslaf Beinir.5842]

Go back to WvW.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > this actually makes my head hurt to think about this hard.

>

> Now Imagine being a PvE Dev and having to do this for 9 classes js

>

 

lol you dont want to hear what i would honestly say to that XD

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > Removing ability to crit would definitely be a better option than out right removal of damage.

> > > > Either that or the minor stacks more might for longer so the trait doesnt depend on hitting people in a 180 range and has more utility, assuming the rest of the might gen comes down significantly.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I think it should not stack more might because when combined with might makes right you are making a loop of

> > > Dodge

> > > Gain might on hit

> > > Gain endurance and health

> > > Repeat

> > > and while a single dodge will not likely give you another free dodge that seems a bit unhealthy

> > >

> > > I dont think the any other dodge traits in the game become that beneficial in terms of endurance restoration and healing when combined together aside from maybe a few daredevil traits but then do we really want warrior dodges to be on par with daredevil dodges? That would seem really unfair to the thief class as a whole. even if might gen did drop in other areas... this actually makes my head hurt to think about this hard.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Its difficult because its not an easy solution when considering the balance environment we've had for nearly 3 years now, ever since PoF released. Until we see what the wide ranging changes are, like if damage and healing gets nerfed significantly enough in the first pass with this coming balance patch, then we can't really know how things will be affected by changing the functionality of traits like Reckless Dodge and its utility effects along with some other rumored changes to CC skills that were hinted at by Cal.

>

> I do think all balancing choices are hard and i try to look at them with realistic ideals based on communication from devs that includes Cal.

> Generally brining a lot of things down and making a lot of cc skills like the cc skill in rampage wont exactly be a bad thing for the game.

>

> But i know he also touched on boons and skills that do too many things at once in addition to cc skill damage reductions.

>

> >

> > Its basically just a little premature to have people dropping in and blasting the forums with anything relating to "REMOVE THIS EFFECT FROM THIS TRAIT/SKILL CUZ ITS TOO STRONG" when we haven't seen what the overall effect of the damage and healing reductions, should they hit, will be. Though I feel like these threads are popping up because some people are hoping to get a word in to try and "convince" the devs to hammer certain things, potentially unnecessarily, with huge utility nerfs without considering the bigger picture while almost purely basing their arguments on a class as it exists in a vacuum as opposed to its overall relation to other things in the game.

>

> It might be premature but its understandable especially if other mechanics similarly exists or at one point did exists on other professions in some cases that have been changed/nerfed due to over performing and one got missed. It would be the norm for someone to say "Remove this from x skill" Cause its already been removed from a some what similar skill. (this is an example and might not exactly be the case with something like reckless dodge.)

>

> To be clear, I just personally made my suggestion for reckless based on a lot of other trait's that use to deal several thousand points of critical damage, almost all of which have had their ability hit critical damage removed to solve the issue due to past complaints the reasoning why i even suggested such a thing. Cause its already been done and really this skill more or less just was not seen as an issue at the time cause it never commonly hit as hard as it does now (might creep). If not for the topic of skills that do damage while evading it likely still would have never been brought up however realistically it should be brought into question as to why it can hit so hard as a dodge passive even if you wont always land the hit.

>

> Sadly devs know somethings will need to be hammered harder than others and players know that too. While i like to think most suggestions and or complaints are just trying to get a word in, at some point you have to take them with the perspective that something actually might be wrong in that area. The last thing we need is 1 elite or a few skills to be left dominating and in a broken state of op'ness for 6 months because something was missed especially after big changes.

>

> What they could do is do public beta test for balance testing before a final release which would help a lot but they wont do that. The public will always find out if something is broken within a matter of days in some cases hours. Anet honestly as much as i appreciate their hard work need to leave some of their old core values from launch behind and stop letting them limit the game. Had they not held on to the "not splitting skills in game modes" for 7 years the game might not have ever reached this place and be in such a desperate state of major changes.

>

 

I have actually asked a Dev on a server Discord before about a test server for the game and was given the response of "It isn't feasible with the tech they have available" which I accepted at the time because I didn't want to push it into some debate, but I don't honestly believe that is actually the case when they have done the Beta Weekend events for the expansions. Both of which resulted in some things being changed with the new Elite specs being introduced, the most notable is the fact that Revenant during the Beta Weekend event for HoT did **not** have a weapon swap and feedback from players that tested during that period is what resulted in Revenant getting its second weapon set. So they **have** done something similar, **can** do something similar and have **seen** the results of doing it being positive yet they haven't endeavored to do anything about the need for a Testing environment, at least that we've been told.

[Zenix.6198]

> @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > @"Zenix.6198" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > > > As Poelala said, once you play against better players warriors becomes harder and harder to play. The attacks are telegraphed, the combos predictable. Warrior is one of the professions I like to say "you get out what you put in". If you get rocked by a warrior it's for one of two reasons

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. You need to learn warrior better and how to play against it

> > > > > 2. The warrior has put in more practice than you and better understands their profession and how to play against yours.

> > > > > 3. (Bonus) You got +1, but you should die no matter the profession.

> > > > >

> > > > > Warrior is strong no doubt but in the current meta it's about middle of the pack and fairly well balanced because it is a, believe it or not, player skilled based profession.

> > > >

> > > > I have over 10k matches played tyvm. Don't go off-topic.

> > >

> > > He's being serious though. If you lose to a Warrior it's because the Warrior earned it.

> > >

> > Oh please.....

> > Warrior is the embodiment of power-creep.

> > Between might thats 33% stronger, Attackers insight and forceful Greatsword warriors can get up to 1465 extra power.

> > Thats basically like equipping an additional Power amulet.

> >

> > Getting hit by a single burst skill can essentially make or break a duel.....Since it doesnt only give the warrior a massive dmg boost but also a metric kitten-ton of sustain (healing and endurance regen) from literally 1 trait. No need for Healing Power whatsoever. So please Cut the "player skill based performance". Its cheese.

> >

> > But then again, Most classes evolve around cheese these days....Weaver included.

> > And before People give me unneeded dueling advice against Warriors: As a weaver I generally don't strugle against the class in 1v1s .....all I'm saying is, that its a cheesy playstyle that literally relies on hitting 1 ~~key~~ ability ....so please spare me the "BuT iT's So TeLeGrApHeD"-argument. Skills can be tellegraphed all they want...if they are spammable with a cooldown of essentially ~10 seconds, telegraphing doesnt matter.

> >

> >

> >

>

> You mean like how literally every other class in the game is also the "embodiment of power creep"? Warrior is not some outlying, singular circumstance of the power creep issue, it isn't even the prime contributing instigator of it, its a **result** of all the other power creep in the game for literally **every other** class.

>

> I really, really don't understand this insistence people have with threads like these, or posts like this, where they fixate on **one** class as supposedly "the problem". The only plausible reason I can come up with is that they got killed by it. Which is where all of the Mirage hate, the Thief hate, the Soulbeast hate, the Holosmith, all of that, comes from. Has any one of the people who make such threads, or posts, ever taken a moment to consider that **all** of it is scuffed and ridiculous nonsense just **in general** because of the way ANet has power crept the game **in general** and **as a whole**?

>

> Like I said, Warrior is not "the problem" or the singular issue, its **everything**. Every class; because **every** class has some trait, ability, build, etc that is just pure and utter nonsense and overtuned or cheesey memey ridiculousness because **that** is the meta in this game right now. The things that work **best** are basically cheese builds that exploits, in this case, sPvP and its faults.

>

> As I said in a previous post, the biggest **prime** contributor to this problem is not any one particular class and no one particular class is more the "embodiment" of it than any other, but it is boons and how accessible they are. This means frequency, duration, and types. Types of boons like Might, Fury, Vigor, Protection, Regeneration and Stability are **very** accessible depending on class. Some may have more access to Might than they do Stability while others may have more access to Protection and Regeneration than they do Might (though not by a lot). The frequency in which these boons are applied exacerbates their duration in a significant way especially if any amount of Boon Duration/Concentration is used in a build. These factors have lead to Might uptime (for Tactics Warrior, Spellbreaker, Herald as well as others) being lengthy and allowing it to soar into the 20+ range for 80% or more of a fights duration, it has also lead to things like Soulbeast being able to drop 10 stacks of Stability on themselves and have it last for 35+ seconds (among other lengthy duration for other boons).

>

> Bigger picture, people. Please. If anyone's concern is that the problems on Warrior, like Magebane Tether, Tactics Might generation and other things will go overlooked I **highly** doubt that will be the case, and even if they don't address those in such an excessive way that people might hope for, the power creep is likely to be mitigated anyway because of the alleged intention of trimming down damage **and** healing across the board. Which **again** I **highly** doubt Warrior will be excluded from that.

 

Not sure what makes you think, Im seeing warrior as the sole outlier.

 

Tbh I actually agree with most of what you say here. Boonspam in general is a massive issue and one the core reasons for rampant powercreep and hyper-inflation of damage. When talking solely about damage-inflation, a lot of classes get carried by their ability to stack 25 might together with high uptimes of fury and quickness (Weaver, War, Rev, Holo and even off-meta stuff like reaper).

 

I have been fairly vocal about this issue in the past as well.

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75195/its-time-for-the-hammer-anet/p1

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72001/offensive-boons-traits#latest

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/89453/addressing-powercreep-by-splitting-boon-effectiveness#latest

[Curennos.9307]

> @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > Removing ability to crit would definitely be a better option than out right removal of damage.

> > > Either that or the minor stacks more might for longer so the trait doesnt depend on hitting people in a 180 range and has more utility, assuming the rest of the might gen comes down significantly.

> > >

> >

> > I think it should not stack more might because when combined with might makes right you are making a loop of

> > Dodge

> > Gain might on hit

> > Gain endurance and health

> > Repeat

> > and while a single dodge will not likely give you another free dodge that seems a bit unhealthy

> >

> > I dont think the any other dodge traits in the game become that beneficial in terms of endurance restoration and healing when combined together aside from maybe a few daredevil traits but then do we really want warrior dodges to be on par with daredevil dodges? That would seem really unfair to the thief class as a whole. even if might gen did drop in other areas... this actually makes my head hurt to think about this hard.

> >

> >

>

> Its difficult because its not an easy solution when considering the balance environment we've had for nearly 3 years now, ever since PoF released. Until we see what the wide ranging changes are, like if damage and healing gets nerfed significantly enough in the first pass with this coming balance patch, then we can't really know how things will be affected by changing the functionality of traits like Reckless Dodge and its utility effects along with some other rumored changes to CC skills that were hinted at by Cal.

>

> Its basically just a little premature to have people dropping in and blasting the forums with anything relating to "REMOVE THIS EFFECT FROM THIS TRAIT/SKILL CUZ ITS TOO STRONG" when we haven't seen what the overall effect of the damage and healing reductions, should they hit, will be. Though I feel like these threads are popping up because some people are hoping to get a word in to try and "convince" the devs to hammer certain things, potentially unnecessarily, with huge utility nerfs without considering the bigger picture while almost purely basing their arguments on a class as it exists in a vacuum as opposed to its overall relation to other things in the game.

 

Has anet said when that big 'ol nerf patch will be coming out? I keep hearing about it 'n trying to find a date, but nada.

[Zexanima.7851]

> @"Zenix.6198" said:

> > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > > @"Zenix.6198" said:

> > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > > > > As Poelala said, once you play against better players warriors becomes harder and harder to play. The attacks are telegraphed, the combos predictable. Warrior is one of the professions I like to say "you get out what you put in". If you get rocked by a warrior it's for one of two reasons

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. You need to learn warrior better and how to play against it

> > > > > > 2. The warrior has put in more practice than you and better understands their profession and how to play against yours.

> > > > > > 3. (Bonus) You got +1, but you should die no matter the profession.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Warrior is strong no doubt but in the current meta it's about middle of the pack and fairly well balanced because it is a, believe it or not, player skilled based profession.

> > > > >

> > > > > I have over 10k matches played tyvm. Don't go off-topic.

> > > >

> > > > He's being serious though. If you lose to a Warrior it's because the Warrior earned it.

> > > >

> > > Oh please.....

> > > Warrior is the embodiment of power-creep.

> > > Between might thats 33% stronger, Attackers insight and forceful Greatsword warriors can get up to 1465 extra power.

> > > Thats basically like equipping an additional Power amulet.

> > >

> > > Getting hit by a single burst skill can essentially make or break a duel.....Since it doesnt only give the warrior a massive dmg boost but also a metric kitten-ton of sustain (healing and endurance regen) from literally 1 trait. No need for Healing Power whatsoever. So please Cut the "player skill based performance". Its cheese.

> > >

> > > But then again, Most classes evolve around cheese these days....Weaver included.

> > > And before People give me unneeded dueling advice against Warriors: As a weaver I generally don't strugle against the class in 1v1s .....all I'm saying is, that its a cheesy playstyle that literally relies on hitting 1 ~~key~~ ability ....so please spare me the "BuT iT's So TeLeGrApHeD"-argument. Skills can be tellegraphed all they want...if they are spammable with a cooldown of essentially ~10 seconds, telegraphing doesnt matter.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > You mean like how literally every other class in the game is also the "embodiment of power creep"? Warrior is not some outlying, singular circumstance of the power creep issue, it isn't even the prime contributing instigator of it, its a **result** of all the other power creep in the game for literally **every other** class.

> >

> > I really, really don't understand this insistence people have with threads like these, or posts like this, where they fixate on **one** class as supposedly "the problem". The only plausible reason I can come up with is that they got killed by it. Which is where all of the Mirage hate, the Thief hate, the Soulbeast hate, the Holosmith, all of that, comes from. Has any one of the people who make such threads, or posts, ever taken a moment to consider that **all** of it is scuffed and ridiculous nonsense just **in general** because of the way ANet has power crept the game **in general** and **as a whole**?

> >

> > Like I said, Warrior is not "the problem" or the singular issue, its **everything**. Every class; because **every** class has some trait, ability, build, etc that is just pure and utter nonsense and overtuned or cheesey memey ridiculousness because **that** is the meta in this game right now. The things that work **best** are basically cheese builds that exploits, in this case, sPvP and its faults.

> >

> > As I said in a previous post, the biggest **prime** contributor to this problem is not any one particular class and no one particular class is more the "embodiment" of it than any other, but it is boons and how accessible they are. This means frequency, duration, and types. Types of boons like Might, Fury, Vigor, Protection, Regeneration and Stability are **very** accessible depending on class. Some may have more access to Might than they do Stability while others may have more access to Protection and Regeneration than they do Might (though not by a lot). The frequency in which these boons are applied exacerbates their duration in a significant way especially if any amount of Boon Duration/Concentration is used in a build. These factors have lead to Might uptime (for Tactics Warrior, Spellbreaker, Herald as well as others) being lengthy and allowing it to soar into the 20+ range for 80% or more of a fights duration, it has also lead to things like Soulbeast being able to drop 10 stacks of Stability on themselves and have it last for 35+ seconds (among other lengthy duration for other boons).

> >

> > Bigger picture, people. Please. If anyone's concern is that the problems on Warrior, like Magebane Tether, Tactics Might generation and other things will go overlooked I **highly** doubt that will be the case, and even if they don't address those in such an excessive way that people might hope for, the power creep is likely to be mitigated anyway because of the alleged intention of trimming down damage **and** healing across the board. Which **again** I **highly** doubt Warrior will be excluded from that.

>

> Not sure what makes you think, Im seeing warrior as the sole outlier.

>

> Tbh I actually agree with most of what you say here. Boonspam in general is a massive issue and one the core reasons for rampant powercreep and hyper-inflation of damage. When talking solely about damage-inflation, a lot of classes get carried by their ability to stack 25 might together with high uptimes of fury and quickness (Weaver, War, Rev, Holo and even off-meta stuff like reaper).

>

> I have been fairly vocal about this issue in the past as well.

>

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75195/its-time-for-the-hammer-anet/p1

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72001/offensive-boons-traits#latest

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/89453/addressing-powercreep-by-splitting-boon-effectiveness#latest

 

Of all the professions overtuned by booncreep, warrior is honestly the least impactful of them all. Not saying it isn't over tuned by booncreep at all, its just the least problematic of the problem children.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"Zenix.6198" said:

> > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > > @"Zenix.6198" said:

> > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > > > > As Poelala said, once you play against better players warriors becomes harder and harder to play. The attacks are telegraphed, the combos predictable. Warrior is one of the professions I like to say "you get out what you put in". If you get rocked by a warrior it's for one of two reasons

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. You need to learn warrior better and how to play against it

> > > > > > 2. The warrior has put in more practice than you and better understands their profession and how to play against yours.

> > > > > > 3. (Bonus) You got +1, but you should die no matter the profession.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Warrior is strong no doubt but in the current meta it's about middle of the pack and fairly well balanced because it is a, believe it or not, player skilled based profession.

> > > > >

> > > > > I have over 10k matches played tyvm. Don't go off-topic.

> > > >

> > > > He's being serious though. If you lose to a Warrior it's because the Warrior earned it.

> > > >

> > > Oh please.....

> > > Warrior is the embodiment of power-creep.

> > > Between might thats 33% stronger, Attackers insight and forceful Greatsword warriors can get up to 1465 extra power.

> > > Thats basically like equipping an additional Power amulet.

> > >

> > > Getting hit by a single burst skill can essentially make or break a duel.....Since it doesnt only give the warrior a massive dmg boost but also a metric kitten-ton of sustain (healing and endurance regen) from literally 1 trait. No need for Healing Power whatsoever. So please Cut the "player skill based performance". Its cheese.

> > >

> > > But then again, Most classes evolve around cheese these days....Weaver included.

> > > And before People give me unneeded dueling advice against Warriors: As a weaver I generally don't strugle against the class in 1v1s .....all I'm saying is, that its a cheesy playstyle that literally relies on hitting 1 ~~key~~ ability ....so please spare me the "BuT iT's So TeLeGrApHeD"-argument. Skills can be tellegraphed all they want...if they are spammable with a cooldown of essentially ~10 seconds, telegraphing doesnt matter.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > You mean like how literally every other class in the game is also the "embodiment of power creep"? Warrior is not some outlying, singular circumstance of the power creep issue, it isn't even the prime contributing instigator of it, its a **result** of all the other power creep in the game for literally **every other** class.

> >

> > I really, really don't understand this insistence people have with threads like these, or posts like this, where they fixate on **one** class as supposedly "the problem". The only plausible reason I can come up with is that they got killed by it. Which is where all of the Mirage hate, the Thief hate, the Soulbeast hate, the Holosmith, all of that, comes from. Has any one of the people who make such threads, or posts, ever taken a moment to consider that **all** of it is scuffed and ridiculous nonsense just **in general** because of the way ANet has power crept the game **in general** and **as a whole**?

> >

> > Like I said, Warrior is not "the problem" or the singular issue, its **everything**. Every class; because **every** class has some trait, ability, build, etc that is just pure and utter nonsense and overtuned or cheesey memey ridiculousness because **that** is the meta in this game right now. The things that work **best** are basically cheese builds that exploits, in this case, sPvP and its faults.

> >

> > As I said in a previous post, the biggest **prime** contributor to this problem is not any one particular class and no one particular class is more the "embodiment" of it than any other, but it is boons and how accessible they are. This means frequency, duration, and types. Types of boons like Might, Fury, Vigor, Protection, Regeneration and Stability are **very** accessible depending on class. Some may have more access to Might than they do Stability while others may have more access to Protection and Regeneration than they do Might (though not by a lot). The frequency in which these boons are applied exacerbates their duration in a significant way especially if any amount of Boon Duration/Concentration is used in a build. These factors have lead to Might uptime (for Tactics Warrior, Spellbreaker, Herald as well as others) being lengthy and allowing it to soar into the 20+ range for 80% or more of a fights duration, it has also lead to things like Soulbeast being able to drop 10 stacks of Stability on themselves and have it last for 35+ seconds (among other lengthy duration for other boons).

> >

> > Bigger picture, people. Please. If anyone's concern is that the problems on Warrior, like Magebane Tether, Tactics Might generation and other things will go overlooked I **highly** doubt that will be the case, and even if they don't address those in such an excessive way that people might hope for, the power creep is likely to be mitigated anyway because of the alleged intention of trimming down damage **and** healing across the board. Which **again** I **highly** doubt Warrior will be excluded from that.

>

> Not sure what makes you think, Im seeing warrior as the sole outlier.

>

> Tbh I actually agree with most of what you say here. Boonspam in general is a massive issue and one the core reasons for rampant powercreep and hyper-inflation of damage. When talking solely about damage-inflation, a lot of classes get carried by their ability to stack 25 might together with high uptimes of fury and quickness (Weaver, War, Rev, Holo and even off-meta stuff like reaper).

>

> I have been fairly vocal about this issue in the past as well.

>

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75195/its-time-for-the-hammer-anet/p1

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72001/offensive-boons-traits#latest

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/89453/addressing-powercreep-by-splitting-boon-effectiveness#latest

 

Its just the way it was worded and the general subject of your post that led me to think that. I hadn't looked through your post history so I was basing my response purely on what I saw in that post.

 

Regardless, Boons have definitely been the prime offender of the problems, its just its not an often repeated subject across the forums because most people tend to pinpoint the wrong things as the problem and go for excessive suggestions as to how they think it will be "fixed". HoT sort of started that train rolling but it wasn't as bad as it is now; PoF really exacerbated the issue and its only gotten worse with ANets successive changes to classes over these past nearly three years. Just look at the string of patches that happened in 2019, the boosts to healing and the boon buffs things like Tempest got all to "bring them in line", essentially, with Firebrand. Their approach to balance has been a nightmare so I'm hoping Cal sticks with the alleged intention of trimming things down because the game sorely needs it.

 

GW2 PvP balance has essentially followed the same trend WoW balance had followed over its years. TBC happened, which in my opinion was probably the golden age of PvP in that game, and then because things like Ret Paladins weren't terribly easy to play at a high level with in PvP or PvE (mostly because most people were not good at rotations for it in Raids) people complained, whined and then WOTLK happened and Ret Paladins became the most faceroll thing in existence, Cataclysm didn't improve things, MoP made it worse, and so on and so forth. The game power crept pretty heavily over time and GW2 has been **no** exception to that series of events, it just happened in a less "direct" way because gear stats hadn't changed so to most people it might not have even looked like anything was happening.

 

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > Removing ability to crit would definitely be a better option than out right removal of damage.

> > > > Either that or the minor stacks more might for longer so the trait doesnt depend on hitting people in a 180 range and has more utility, assuming the rest of the might gen comes down significantly.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I think it should not stack more might because when combined with might makes right you are making a loop of

> > > Dodge

> > > Gain might on hit

> > > Gain endurance and health

> > > Repeat

> > > and while a single dodge will not likely give you another free dodge that seems a bit unhealthy

> > >

> > > I dont think the any other dodge traits in the game become that beneficial in terms of endurance restoration and healing when combined together aside from maybe a few daredevil traits but then do we really want warrior dodges to be on par with daredevil dodges? That would seem really unfair to the thief class as a whole. even if might gen did drop in other areas... this actually makes my head hurt to think about this hard.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Its difficult because its not an easy solution when considering the balance environment we've had for nearly 3 years now, ever since PoF released. Until we see what the wide ranging changes are, like if damage and healing gets nerfed significantly enough in the first pass with this coming balance patch, then we can't really know how things will be affected by changing the functionality of traits like Reckless Dodge and its utility effects along with some other rumored changes to CC skills that were hinted at by Cal.

> >

> > Its basically just a little premature to have people dropping in and blasting the forums with anything relating to "REMOVE THIS EFFECT FROM THIS TRAIT/SKILL CUZ ITS TOO STRONG" when we haven't seen what the overall effect of the damage and healing reductions, should they hit, will be. Though I feel like these threads are popping up because some people are hoping to get a word in to try and "convince" the devs to hammer certain things, potentially unnecessarily, with huge utility nerfs without considering the bigger picture while almost purely basing their arguments on a class as it exists in a vacuum as opposed to its overall relation to other things in the game.

>

> Has anet said when that big 'ol nerf patch will be coming out? I keep hearing about it 'n trying to find a date, but nada.

 

No specific date has been given, but they made mention of it in their end of year sort of "notice" post on the website that its slated for Q1 2020. Which is anywhere from January up to the end of March.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-to-the-new-year/

"This balance update is currently targeted for Q1 of 2020, assuming everything goes according to plan."

[Ovark.2514]

All I want is to give Bull's Charge the Rampage treatment.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

> @"Ovark.2514" said:

> All I want is to give Bull's Charge the Rampage treatment.

 

As I understand it that is an example Cal used directly. That Bull's Charge having its damage trimmed off doesn't actually hurt what the skill itself is used for; which is to say that Warrior's use it for the Evade, gap close, and the CC. Removing its damage won't hinder its effectiveness so long as other similar CC skills get the same treatment which is the broader intention.