How To Beat Rangers - A Secret l2p Guide

[CroTiger.7819]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

 

 

> you dont get to have "interrupt" playstyle becouse some builds get 10 stacks of stab and laught at CC.

> not even to mention that alot of classes mesmer included has alot of damage thats tied to dodging so you cant even interrupt it IF you didnt have stab.

> Power block is still bugged btw.

 

Yes and thats main issue with game if u read what i wrote overall ull see that i said (keeping bigger picture in mind) stability uptime should get reduced and mesmer mirage mechanic should get changed almost complitly from this point where its broken and all changes are just killing other mesmer posibilities. For example what should be done for mirage is Grandmaster traits choice and mechanic change. Best way to do that is removing his ability to dodge when cc and dodge while using skills and it should be done this way so 1. grandmaster trait remove stun on dodge (but ur now not able to cast it while doing other skills but it will make ppl playing mirage be able to take 3 utilities slots without stunbreak or maybe 1 will be enough) 2. That one is infinite horizon and it stays same (some nerfs which was done because of this trait should even get buffed again since u can t use dodge stuned and while casting skills if u take this grandmaster trait which in that case just fits condi role) 3. is new and it gives u ability to use dodge while using other skills which is now default mechanic

 

If you think about this you will see that even this 3 grandmaster traits could be op traits but now they are mostly part of mechanic having it all in one which is not healthy and is very passive. What u get if u do what i wrote above is:

 

1. you can use it to play power builds having stunbreak on dodge and picking utilities without fear of having 2-3 stunbreaks (still totaly unique mechanic changer)

 

2. you can still play condi mirage build but being less reliant on dodge and using it as active counterplay but since u loose now ability to dodge while cc and using

other skills than ambush while cc. In addition to that most skills especially cry of frustration should get buff and staff skill 3 should get buffs because they was nerfed

because of broken mirage mechanic not broken infinite horizon

 

3. you can use this on spike builds or bunker builds or even interupt builds since it will make u interupt king, being able to dodge and rupt in same time

 

Problem is this game really needs bigger change to fit midlle ground of skillfull interupt gameplay and to make that u need to change alot of things so i know there is alot of concerns that it can t work in this game. I think it can but its just too silly to write all stuff that should be done in this post since im already being hard out of topic.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"CroTiger.7819" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

>

>

> > you dont get to have "interrupt" playstyle becouse some builds get 10 stacks of stab and laught at CC.

> > not even to mention that alot of classes mesmer included has alot of damage thats tied to dodging so you cant even interrupt it IF you didnt have stab.

> > Power block is still bugged btw.

>

> Yes and thats main issue with game if u read what i wrote overall ull see that i said (keeping bigger picture in mind) stability uptime should get reduced and mesmer mirage mechanic should get changed almost complitly from this point where its broken and all changes are just killing other mesmer posibilities. For example what should be done for mirage is Grandmaster traits choice and mechanic change. Best way to do that is removing his ability to dodge when cc and dodge while using skills and it should be done this way so 1. grandmaster trait remove stun on dodge (but ur now not able to cast it while doing other skills but it will make ppl playing mirage be able to take 3 utilities slots without stunbreak or maybe 1 will be enough) 2. That one is infinite horizon and it stays same (some nerfs which was done because of this trait should even get buffed again since u can t use dodge stuned and while casting skills if u take this grandmaster trait which in that case just fits condi role) 3. is new and it gives u ability to use dodge while using other skills not just ambush which is now default mechanic

>

> If you think about this you will see that even this 3 grandmaster traits could be op traits but now they are mostly part of mechanic having it all in one which is not healthy and is very passive. What u get if u do what i wrote above is:

> 1. you can use it to play power builds having stunbreak on dodge and picking utilities without fear of having 2-3 stunbreaks (still totaly unique mechanic changer)

> 2. you can still play condi mirage build but being less reliant on dodge and using it as active counterplay but since u loose now ability to dodge while cc and using other

> skills than ambush. In addition to that most skills especially cry of frustration should get buff and staff skill 3 should get buffs because they was nerfed because of

> broken mirage mechanic not broken infinite horizon

> 3. you can use this on spike builds or bunker builds or even interupt builds since it will make u interupt king, being able to dodge and rupt in same time

>

> Problem is this game really needs bigger change to fit midlle ground of skillfull interupt gameplay and to make that u need to change alot of things so i know there is alot of concerns that it can t work in this game. I think it can but its just too silly to write all stuff that should be done in this post since im already being hard out of topic.

 

First and foremost stability shouldnt exist, every game I played with " stability " it was absolute failure.

[CroTiger.7819]

It can exist as higher cd boon every 30 sec which gives 3 stacks at best and last 1-5 secs but not in this manner where u can keep it 24/7 which complitly kills game. Some builds like fb need some safe time (especially in the current state) to buff allies and cast important skills but it should be much less uptime allowing smaller counterplays like soft cc interupt to become viable but still not too dominant vs heals. But actually to do that u need to half overall dmg in game, half boon spam and change 80% of cc to soft 1/4 daze and than you can get interactive gameplay and nice teamfights which are not zerg bombs but actually skillfull chained actions to take advantage to make kills.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236"

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I'd add charge merge, hilt bash if you didn't.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > And i would add dodge to mesmers

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > shows how much people know about mesmer.

> > > > > > > > > chaos vortex/barrage is mesmers ambush ( dodge )

> > > > > > > > > the fact that he decided to list F2 as a must dodge is another story, lol

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So do you enjoy eating Blind + Confusion from Cry of Frustrations? That might explain why you lose your 1v1s.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > confusion is useless. and since you said it yourself, you not dodging 1s daze. why would i dodge 1,5s blind lol.

> > > > > > > exp as a MUST dode XD

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > edit, assuming someone even takes this garbage blind trait.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The blind lasts 2.5s on the meta build which is a fairly long time to go without being able to land a skill.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Confusion is useless? lel

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes, blind is 100% must dodge, soon you will say that you have to dodge it 4 times, once for each clone lol.

> > > > > and thats assuming that someone took the kitten trait to blind in the firstplace, taking antysynergytraits 2k20 kekW

> > > >

> > > > So you don't dodge Shadow Shot?

> > > >

> > > > You stand inside Black Powders and Smoke Screens?

> > > >

> > > > Blind is one of the most impactful conditions you can use against classes that rely on single-hit attacks.

> > >

> > > Me : papercut is not a big deal

> > > You : so you cut yourself ?

> > > Shadow shot deals more damage and it is a teleport, yes I will use evade to dodge shadowshot if I dont want thief to teleport to me.

> > > No I will not use dodge to leave black power.

> > >

> >

> > So you don't evade shatters? If you don't think Mind Wrack on power builds and Cry of Frustration on condi builds are not necessary to avoid, maybe that's why you lose all of your 1v1s.

>

> maybe if you didnt take kitten traits like blinding dissipation or wasting dodges on f2 that deals 100 dmg you would reach plat 2 on mesmer.

> people that cant admit they are wrong are the worst shadowsomething, keep dodging cmirage f2. and keep putting words into other peoples mouths to fit your arguments

> "So you don't evade shatters" <-- this is exactly whats wrong with these froums. you have nothing to say so you make kitten up and toss it at people, if you bothered to actually play condi mirage the " meta build " you would know that f1 deals more damage then f2, becouse of how kitten the confusion is.

> the only times competent cmirage of the "meta build" will shatter f2 is to deal 200dmg when he has no clones or to get vigor when he has no clones, listing it as must dodge is straight up pathetic, kitten me 1 clone auto is more scary then f2 shatter.

 

I played power/condi mes solo que majority of the previous season. Did some games at the end to push a bit more on my ranger.

 

Ended at R22 during a duo season, more than 90% of my games were solo while climbing.

[bravan.3876]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"CroTiger.7819" said:

> > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > A dude that's constantly making threads and posts asking mesmers to get nerfed making a thread titled "l2p" is lovely.

> > >

> > > @"bravan.3876" - @"CroTiger.7819" has a point mesmers are supposed to be the undisputed kings of shutdown. I don't know if you played GW1 but mesmer was similar to blue counterspell deck in magic, you only casted whatever the mesmer allowed. Some rupts did massive damage, power spike comes to mind, we had something similar in form of power block.

> > > Now if mesmer was like GW1 instead of this clone, phantasm trash the "nerf mes" cries would be multiplied by a thousand, most people don't want to be good, to have a balanced game, people are here to win as easy as possible.

> > > In regards to a broad view of pvp in GW1 and gw2, is not even a contest, the first one was a clever team based game with high risk high reward, this one is a glorified single player game based around as much safety nets as possible. You don't need to call spikes, you don't need to split defensively and offensively, you don't need to time rupts, you don't need to manage your skills, all you need is to press the same combos over and over until kitten explode.

> >

> > Yes finally someone who played Gw actually and understands the thing i said... The question now is if its possible to be done in gw2 since interupt (soft cc meta) can counter this spam fest and can make game more skillfull (im also aware of ppl wanted to just play dumb spam builds more than actually learn and adapt to this skillfull gameplay). One thing is sure there is too much stability and evades which would make it less impactfull so amount of stability should be removed to match 1 hard cc per character so there is 1/3 stab uptime at best so than no dmg interupts can make nice way to be build around that. On top of that mesmer have power block trait which will leave him as interupt king again and ppl should be aware of los, fake casts and other things (good players will learn that and bad ones will still not face good interupters since it goes along ). Still having ppl canceling casts is or being interupted can make game more fun and fights more longer. My point is that game can t be balanced without having interupt soft-cc and defining it as daze is most logical thing since 1/4 daze won t make u use stunbreak but it will interupt your cast. We should get this atleast as option as i said above ranger need rework on shortbow (skill 5 now daze for 1/4 sec and have 2 counts) to fit that style and longbow should also loose hard ranged cc (change it to 2 counts long lasting cripple) because this way longbow have better interupt than shorbow and overall better utility and demage which is extramly sad.

> > If i remember correctly power block in old gw was shut down spell skills for like 10 sec (skill had no high dmg) if u interupt spell and it had big recharge on it. I like idea of power block on mes trait we have today in gw2 also u forget ranger was part of that mechanic too. Now mesmer have good skills and traits to fit that role but whole meta and skills should get revisited that way to allow such build which don t do hard dmg, not even hard healing or support get spot in high pvp beacause interupts can be used offensive and defensive ( If u interupt rev spike dmg on your teamate than fb won t need to invest 1 more heal, also if u interupt firebrand heal u won t need to do 3k more dmg...so on and so on). Ranger compared to mes in gw2 have nothing in common to gw1 version and it just still need 2 changes which won t mess up anything since shortbow doesn t have defined role and 90% of pets are on same effective level as shortbow... so idea is to change shorbow skill 5 which now daze or stun 2 sec on 20 recharge to unblockable soft-cc 1/4 daze and give it 2 counts with 20 sec recharge and pets for example spider gets f2 skill same way 2 counts soft-cc 1/4 daze with no dmg on 20 sec cd and what u get is being able to rupt every 5 sec and activly use your pet while spreading condis such as bleed and poison so ull actually make kills by skillfull shutdown heals and other skills instead of just hard cc than hard dmg or even both in one... So the ranger will be interupt king which damage conditions bleed and poison counter passive play and mesmer should be interupt king aswell since it always was but his damage conditions will counter active play for exaple confusion and torment...

>

> you dont get to have "interrupt" playstyle becouse some builds get 10 stacks of stab and laught at CC.

> not even to mention that alot of classes mesmer included has alot of damage thats tied to dodging so you cant even interrupt it IF you didnt have stab.

> Power block is still bugged btw.

 

Considering that i don't know a lot of Mesmers playing power interrupt over the brainless oneshot stealthspam or condi meta, in particular in high ranks, it never looked like they have too less opportunities to interrupt. The stabi uptime in the game is (too) high yes but not too high to make it work, at least when played well. Most Mesmers i see with MoD just braindead spam it more or less. They are a joke to fight against. Ofc when braindead spammed MoD does nothing, nothing impactful, nothing rewarding enough worth doing at least. And i think, even though the playstyle ofc is one of the most skillful, that this is also needed to be balanced. If every noob can play it, it will get annoying asf. I don't want a game Mesmers can dictate every cast, every step i do vs them. I have fun playing vs good interrupt Mesmers who need to time their interrupts meaningful on keyskills or defensive for the daze in keymoments by having to have my cds including stabi uptime, aegis etc in mind. I never played GW1 and maybe it was fitting there but a too strong with too less counters and too less downtime from stabi and aegis interruptstyle on no matter what class would be too op in GW2. It should be a playstyle good players, but only good player, can make work, in particular on a class like Mesmer that has so much active outplay potential. In general because of that, Mesmer should be a class only playable by skilled ppl, the moment a class like Mesmer has noobfriendly builds it is instantly a big balance issue and skill ceiling/ floor decrease remarkable. Don't get me wrong, Mesmers can be strong, even very strong, but only when played rly well. For power interrupt Mirage it is the case atm, it is balanced and skillful and not easy to make it work, some nerfs to other classes will make it stronger already and i think more is not needed or it will get oppressive in the worst case.

 

> @"CroTiger.7819" said:

 

> Yes and thats main issue with game if u read what i wrote overall ull see that i said (keeping bigger picture in mind) stability uptime should get reduced and mesmer mirage mechanic should get changed almost complitly from this point where its broken and all changes are just killing other mesmer posibilities. For example what should be done for mirage is Grandmaster traits choice and mechanic change. Best way to do that is removing his ability to dodge when cc and dodge while using skills and it should be done this way so 1. grandmaster trait remove stun on dodge (but ur now not able to cast it while doing other skills but it will make ppl playing mirage be able to take 3 utilities slots without stunbreak or maybe 1 will be enough) 2. That one is infinite horizon and it stays same (some nerfs which was done because of this trait should even get buffed again since u can t use dodge stuned and while casting skills if u take this grandmaster trait which in that case just fits condi role) 3. is new and it gives u ability to use dodge while using other skills which is now default mechanic

 

Mirage mechanics aren't as broken as you make them and not passive at all in their base mechanic, the only thing rly needs to go is EM what is the most gamebreaking. The only overperforming parts of Mirage then are the too passive designed condi ambushes only and they can be fine tuned by themself to solve the problem without killing Mirage as a spec it was meant to be: With having a strength vs cc. Mirage in its current state aside from EM, detargeting skills and Condiambushes is a pretty interesting, active and skillful spec. You can check my post in Valluns last video thread in this forum to have a more detailed explanation when needed. What you suggest is almostly Chrono treatment by simply nerfing the spec in unnecessary and skillful parts without any compensation. Play a Power interrupt Mirage without detargeting kitten or MoP as not oneshot style and see how not op it is and how much skill that actually needs atm. 99% of the playerbase including me are not able to do that in higher ranks vs decent ppl. Why destroying that only to nerf overperforming condibuilds with a not needed not fine tuning hammer? If Anet listen to such suggestions Mesmer mains can dig another grave right beside Chrono for Mirage. Anyway this is a Ranger thread though:

 

 

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> @"bravan.3876"

>

> Another important thing to point out is how 4+ years ago, when damage was 1/2 or 1/3rd of what it is now, a 2s Knockdown on a pet or anything else wasn't that big of a deal. But now if you get knocked for 2s by anything, it's easily enough time for pretty much anything to DPS you into downstate during a power crept meta.

>

> ^ I think that is also a very real factor as to why Ranger pet CCs seem particularly annoying as of the past 3-4 seasons. All it takes is 1-2s of being CC'd with no stun break, and you'll be in downstate from a Ranger's Maul/WI in this patching.

>

> But see, I again do not feel this is a problem with the mechanics on Ranger or its Pet, but rather too much DPS power creep in general amongst all classes. And I'll mention again, the Quickness uptime for both the Pet and the Ranger is crazy during this patching.

 

Yes true, it ofc is a mix of everything causing, that even stuff that is in the game since release and never was complained about to be an issue today. I am also not saying that my suggestion (not my idea anyway) is the only way to solve the problems. But i think it is the way makes the most sense in terms of balance logic and it also would give Anet more flexibility to create stronger skills who are in players hand and active because of not overperforming pets. I think my suggestion is just the way will add the most skill floor and ceiling to the class. Other ways of reworking/nerfing Ranger ofc will solve the acute problems too but more by covering the base problems i see with the passive pet mechanic when the passive skills have too much impact. The best way (in my view) ofc is as often not the easiest and will need more work and effort from Anet and for that it is unlikely it will happen, but it is sad. I think also as Ranger player it would be more fun to have a more active class to play and not get flamed after every kill by opponents about how the pet did the most to win the fight. At least not when they are right, and atm they are right when complaining.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"bravan.3876" its not rocket science to interrupt with MoD. What is hard is making anything worthwhile out of the interrupt.

Heck, it even has antisynergy with the class mechanic ( mirage cloak )

Whats the point of interrupting your offence, and followup with my own damage, if i can dodgewhile casting anyways. 0 value.

MoD is almost dead against alot of enemies, its a farcry from what most classes use.

Good against everything but AMAZING against something specific.

MoD is almost useless against most and good/very good against others.

The only real good reason for it to be used that I see is to help peel for people during teamfights + hard stomp necros during teamfights.

But if you wanna go that route you might as well play a different class that does it better.

 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

This game is just too spam for rupts to work. Game needed a huge rework for it to be good.

It also needs to be more punishing, with thr resource the problem is solved.

Cutting just stab won't do anything.

 

But some other stuff on game needed a look.

First game needed a resource so it cut the spam and allow a more clever gameplay.

Than boons getting nerfed as a whole and condis having a cap and working similar to GW1.

Stealth and shadowsteps gone so you have to play smart with position.

Evades, blocks, invul getting a nerf or having some counter kind of like wild blow to stances in the first game.

Than put some risk into stuff, again frenzy in GW1 comes to mind.

Too much work for ANerf to care and let's be serious players that still play the game don't want it either.

[bravan.3876]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"bravan.3876" its not rocket science to interrupt with MoD. What is hard is making anything worthwhile out of the interrupt.

> Heck, it even has antisynergy with the class mechanic ( mirage cloak )

> Whats the point of interrupting your offence, and followup with my own damage, if i can dodgewhile casting anyways. 0 value.

> MoD is almost dead against alot of enemies, its a farcry from what most classes use.

> Good against everything but AMAZING against something specific.

> MoD is almost useless against most and good/very good against others.

> The only real good reason for it to be used that I see is to help peel for people during teamfights + hard stomp necros during teamfights.

> But if you wanna go that route you might as well play a different class that does it better.

>

 

It is not an antisynergy when you have more then one way to react to opponents, you either dodge, blink, invuln or cc a skill depending on what is the most useful in that situation and depending on your cds left. In fact playing interrupt on Mirage with Mirage Cloak on sword ambushes together with DE and IH has one of the best synergies.

PPl only prefer to play the signet spam NA build on Powermirage because it is easier to play not because it is more useful and probably because after the last nerfs of Mantras (which arguable where not needed for MoD) make Mantras look trash. As you mentioned, the ability to peel for ppl, to use it more frequently on resses and stomps, to apply weakness and higher cds on keyskills is a big teamsupport aspect ppl underestimate it seems.

And ofc ppl like to say interrupting with an instant range skill is so easy but in the end it needs to be instant to make reactive interrupts on keyskills even possible. Not including the abuse of Quickness these days interrupting 3/4 sec cast skills on purpose still needs above average reaction time and the knowledge of skill animations to be able to distinguish different skillanimations right from the start of the animation (without seeing the fully casted animation). That is why it feels like 99% of the Mesmers i meet using MoD just spam it. But it is good like that. As said the playstyle needs to be skillful to not get oppressive pretty fast. In a slower paced game with way less counter uptime it would be just as op and skillless as it is with overperforming interrupt traits like old CI, where a random interrupt on an autoattack was nearly enough to get a kill. Also for that old CI playstyle stabi uptime was not too high to bring it into meta btw...

 

But this is a Ranger thread maybe we should stop talking about Mesmers xD

[CroTiger.7819]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

 

 

> Mirage mechanics aren't as broken as you make them and not passive at all in their base mechanic, the only thing rly needs to go is EM what is the most gamebreaking. The only overperforming parts of Mirage then are the too passive designed condi ambushes only and they can be fine tuned by themself to solve the problem without killing Mirage as a spec it was meant to be: With having a strength vs cc. Mirage in its current state aside from EM, detargeting skills and Condiambushes is a pretty interesting, active and skillful spec. You can check my post in Valluns last video thread in this forum to have a more detailed explanation when needed. What you suggest is almostly Chrono treatment by simply nerfing the spec in unnecessary and skillful parts without any compensation. Play a Power interrupt Mirage without detargeting kitten or MoP as not oneshot style and see how not op it is and how much skill that actually needs atm. 99% of the playerbase including me are not able to do that in higher ranks vs decent ppl. Why destroying that only to nerf overperforming condibuilds with a not needed not fine tuning hammer? If Anet listen to such suggestions Mesmer mains can dig another grave right beside Chrono for Mirage. Anyway this is a Ranger thread though:

 

 

Im sorry for messing with this kind of ideas in first place since it requieres much more imagination to see the point. But saying mirage is ok is ignoring the problem. I know IH is actually making some nice interactive gameplay with clones and it is indeed active and i wouldn t change that. But having ability to dodge while stuned cast skills while dodging is way too much for main mechanic thats why i suggested to make it grandmaster trait choice separeted so u keep mirage cloack as main mechanic with ambushes only. Elusive mind loose downside effect and works same as before nerf as pure stun break on dodge alowing much more active combat and potentialy increase ur build diversity. IH stays the same but since now u don t have dodge on cc and other skills they will need to back all nerfs they done since when core mechanics of mirage is splited in grandmaster traits. This will actually result in having same amount of interactive gameplay with clones and additionaly will give more builds chance since weapon skills that got nerfed just because of broken mechanic will now get back (just look at staff skill 3 wtf is that u even use it just to get clone instead having some nice utility on such long cd). Last GM trait should be than what now we have as default and its dodge while casting other skills and dodging while stuned. All of this 3 versions are very strong GM choices and will make nice build diversity (followed with buffs on weapon skills and f2 shatter). No im not enemy of mirage i actually like the idea (of whole mesmer in general) but its just done wrong on this espec. If u think mirage core mechanice is not broken than you are the enemie of your own profession because mirage got so many nerfs very bad ones for no reason while leaving core mechanics broken as default which killed mesmer choice for 1 viable option . Saying Elusive mind is op in this current state and thinking dodge on cc as core mechanic is ok is so far from any logic. As i told even just ambush 1 with mirage cloak as only core of mechanic for mirage and than picking Elusive mind as GM trait is epic and alows for nice utility freedom but you clearly don t wanna see outside of box where mirage have all in 1 button and keep geting nerfs on other skills which were always fine. If you think mirage mechanic is fine than try playing same wep set staff and scepter pistol on core mes and lets see how much damage u gonna make with all sudden nerfs to weapon sets... What u ask is just more numbers check which is same thing they do over and over again and it made mirage as only real choice even the crhonomancer got nerfed hard in last year cus of that mechanic ur defending and yet u still think it just needs more numbers check after all proffesion is messed up cus single mechanic problem of mirage.

 

[bravan.3876]

> @"CroTiger.7819" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

>

>

> > Mirage mechanics aren't as broken as you make them and not passive at all in their base mechanic, the only thing rly needs to go is EM what is the most gamebreaking. The only overperforming parts of Mirage then are the too passive designed condi ambushes only and they can be fine tuned by themself to solve the problem without killing Mirage as a spec it was meant to be: With having a strength vs cc. Mirage in its current state aside from EM, detargeting skills and Condiambushes is a pretty interesting, active and skillful spec. You can check my post in Valluns last video thread in this forum to have a more detailed explanation when needed. What you suggest is almostly Chrono treatment by simply nerfing the spec in unnecessary and skillful parts without any compensation. Play a Power interrupt Mirage without detargeting kitten or MoP as not oneshot style and see how not op it is and how much skill that actually needs atm. 99% of the playerbase including me are not able to do that in higher ranks vs decent ppl. Why destroying that only to nerf overperforming condibuilds with a not needed not fine tuning hammer? If Anet listen to such suggestions Mesmer mains can dig another grave right beside Chrono for Mirage. Anyway this is a Ranger thread though:

>

>

> Im sorry for messing with this kind of ideas in first place since it requieres much more imagination to see the point. But saying mirage is ok is ignoring the problem. I know IH is actually making some nice interactive gameplay with clones and it is indeed active and i wouldn t change that. But having ability to dodge while stuned cast skills while dodging is way too much for main mechanic thats why i suggested to make it grandmaster trait choice separeted so u keep mirage cloack as main mechanic with ambushes only. Elusive mind loose downside effect and works same as before nerf as pure stun break on dodge alowing much more active combat and potentialy increase ur build diversity. IH stays the same but since now u don t have dodge on cc and other skills they will need to back all nerfs they done since when core mechanics of mirage is splited in grandmaster traits. This will actually result in having same amount of interactive gameplay with clones and additionaly will give more builds chance since weapon skills that got nerfed just because of broken mechanic will now get back (just look at staff skill 3 kitten is that u even use it just to get clone instead having some nice utility on such long cd). Last GM trait should be than what now we have as default and its dodge while casting other skills and dodging while stuned. All of this 3 versions are very strong GM choices and will make nice build diversity (followed with buffs on weapon skills and f2 shatter). No im not enemy of mirage i actually like the idea (of whole mesmer in general) but its just done wrong on this espec. If u think mirage core mechanice is not broken than you are the enemie of your own profession because mirage got so many nerfs very bad ones for no reason while leaving core mechanics broken as default which killed mesmer choice for 1 viable option . Saying Elusive mind is op in this current state and thinking dodge on cc as core mechanic is ok is so far from any logic. As i told even just ambush 1 with mirage cloak as only core of mechanic for mirage and than picking Elusive mind as GM trait is epic and alows for nice utility freedom but you clearly don t wanna see outside of box where mirage have all in 1 button and keep geting nerfs on other skills which was always fine.

 

 

Yes as said it looks broken on the first view but i still suggest reading what i wrote in the Vallun video thread. Also Mirage cannot dodge while stunned and cast during that in the same time, they can do either of it in a situation. On a squishy spec without a broken amount of dodges i don't rly see much of a problem here, it is a very strong mechanic no doubt but not gamebreaking and can be balanced. Atm only condi ambushes make it unbalanced/ passive, so why change more than that?

 

The only thing should rly not exist under that circumstances is a stunbreak dodge, then Mirage can dodge while stunned, even break the stun with just one button use and dodge the follow up only instead the cc without punishment and even can counterburst while still dodging. That is the big difference between Mirage Cloak and EM. Mirage Cloak lowers the skill floor just a little bit by still giving cc a value and still punish bad Mirages for eating the cc. Covering some of the long casts with good animation on a squishy spec is also not such big of a deal and i even like to bait dodges by pressuring Mirages into cover dodges to then get a cc and/ or a burst dmg on them. Add to that, that Mirage also needs to care for clones and useful moments for offensive clone ambush dodges and it opens up for mind games on both sides and adds tactical deepness into dodgemanagement for Mirages. Something that sounds broken on the first view also has another side, a pretty active and skillful side. And i think both sides together on a quishy spec at least without op amount of dodges makes it still skillful, even add mindgames and makes it counterable and still rewards good players way more than bad ones. I think the view from the majority of players on most Mesmer- and even more Mirage mechanics are often too overexaggerating, superficial and onesided to make useful balance suggestions. Its what i like to call bronze propaganda (without meaning you here). Means with few balances stuff that needs to be there (like not too many dodges available and in fact Mirage has less dodges than lot of other classes not dependent on making dmg with dodges per spec design and more active or at least less overperforming in dmg clone ambushes) it is a strong but balanced mechanic doesn't need a hammer rework/ nerf.

 

Also ppl like to forget, that the strong dodge mechanic probably is there to compensate for the very weak dodge dmg traits in Mirage due to the clone mechanic of Mesmer in general. As i explained several times Mirage has the weakest and most limited dodge dmg trait in the game, when you want to base a dodgebased spec on such weak dodge traits you have to give something strong at other places. I think that was the whole consept idea of Mirage and it is not totally garbage, it rly makes sense from the point of balance logic. All that needs to be fine adjusted is that ambush skills and in particular ambushskills from clones are not op and are not too passive designed and that something like a stunbreak dodge doesn't exist in addition and that Mirages cannot dodge too often.

 

Also on Condibuilds Mirage just double an imbalance that already exist on core, the condi clone normal autoattacks (just as condi clone ambushes), what is a core design, already do way more dmg than clone autoattacks from power weapons (=nearly zero), for no reason btw (and for that Anet nerfed more and more the active ways of condi application by shatters what was a stupid and unlogic way of balancing).

 

So you see the problematic with Mesmers and in particular Mirage isn't that easy and onesided to describe like you did it and the way of healthy and skillful solutions goes way different than most ppl here would think.

 

But this is a Ranger thread, lets talk about Ranger xD

[CroTiger.7819]

Man i get your point and tbh this was good conversation with depth but i still think spliting core mechanics in GM traits and than buffing actual wepons for mesmer will be much more of a improvment and actually will have 3 very different, skilfull and cool play of mirage (i can see hundrends of variant just by old elusive mind which won t be broken if u remove core mechanics from mes like dodge while cc or dodge while casting skills) and core and chrono will get back in line with build wars (but yea chrono still need more work obviously, even though i found that chronophantasma with pistol open nice option for chrono condi variant but still feels lame with new shatters). Anyway im not type of player that want nerf cus i have problems facing mirage i just love having build wars in game and be creative with that since being top doesn t interest me too much anymore if there is no build diversity. Im playing guild wars half of my life and really want to improve the game and i done same in old guild wars which was amazing game for creative people i made alot of builds there which ppl later copied and played (was wining halls with r6 ppl against r9-12 with offmeta build because i always understand the meta and give my best to counter it so more builds can be playable). Gw2 also have potential and thats why i spend alot of time looking for main issues and problems because thats what i like. Anyway if u want to open conversation in mesmer forum ill be glad to join but as opposite side so we can have better discusion i hope so. I will do same for ranger on ranger forum where i wanna talk about more things than just pew pew ranger (idk if i can do it with 1 star above my name since i just joined after i invest alot of time siting and reading forums but never disccusing these ideas. Ranger and mesmer are my topics since i think main issue lays there because until soft cc interupt playstyle take place in these game it will never be balanced example is guild wars 1 balance team which was balanced just because ranger and mes doing their job interupting important skills (required high skill and enemie was always able to fake casts which can work in gw 2 too since u don t wanna get powerblocked) and it survived all metas without ever being broken while still being in line with everything else which came). Balance in gw1 is best example on how to balance game and its because of interupt skillful playstyle which can be offensive and defensive in same time and alows counterplay. Thats why i talk about mesmer and ranger because they was most important part of that interupt playstyle which bringed depth and balance to game. This game is big part of my life and i love it anyways but i can t stay cool after i see how much potential it has.

[bravan.3876]

> @"CroTiger.7819" said:

> Man i get your point and tbh this was good conversation with depth but i still think spliting core mechanics in GM traits and than buffing actual wepons for mesmer will be much more of a improvment and actually will have 3 very different, skilfull and cool play of mirage (i can see hundrends of variant just by old elusive mind which won t be broken if u remove core mechanics from mes like dodge while cc or dodge while casting skills) and core and chrono will get back in line with build wars (but yea chrono still need more work obviously, even though i found that chronophantasma with pistol open nice option for chrono condi variant but still feels lame with new shatters). Anyway im not type of player that want nerf cus i have problems facing mirage i just love having build wars in game and be creative with that since being top doesn t interest me too much anymore if there is no build diversity. Im playing guild wars half of my life and really want to improve the game and i done same in old guild wars which was amazing game for creative people i made alot of builds there which ppl later copied and played (was wining halls with r6 ppl against r9-12 with offmeta build because i always understand the meta and give my best to counter it so more builds can be playable). Gw2 also have potential and thats why i spend alot of time looking for main issues and problems because thats what i like. Anyway if u want to open conversation in mesmer forum ill be glad to join but as opposite side so we can have better discusion i hope so. I will do same for ranger on ranger forum where i wanna talk about more things than just pew pew ranger (idk if i can do it with 1 star above my name since i just joined after i invest alot of time siting and reading forums but never disccusing these ideas. Ranger and mesmer are my topics since i think main issue lays there because until soft cc interupt playstyle take place in these game it will never be balanced example is guild wars 1 balance team which was balanced just because ranger and mes doing their job interupting important skills (required high skill and enemie was always able to fake casts which can work in gw 2 too since u don t wanna get powerblocked) and it survived all metas without ever being broken while still being in line with everything else which came). Balance in gw1 is best example on how to balance game and its because of interupt skillful playstyle which can be offensive and defensive in same time and alows counterplay. Thats why i talk about mesmer and ranger because they was most important part of that interupt playstyle which bringed depth and balance to game. This game is big part of my life and i love it anyways but i can t stay cool after i see how much potential it has.

 

Just added some stuff into my previous post during you posted, no clue if you saw it already?

 

Anyway i am not rly active in class specific sub forums simply because i have no main and it would be too time consuming to be up to date in all or at least most of them, the biggest class problems causes complains and leads in balance changes usual reach the PvP forum and in terms of still having some time for work during work (xD) i only waste my time here in PvP forum. I made a rework suggestion for the grandmasters myself in one thread based on the suggestion from Mesmer mains to make IH a minor trait, i will try to find it and copy it into a Mesmer thread (if you prefer in Mesmer forum maybe you can create a thread there like "Mirage balance suggestion" or something? I will then use it, i promise and don't mind to further discuss with you either because it seems constructive and not biased, also you seems to be one of the very few whose head doesn't explode when reading my in depth wall of text kitten :joy: ).

 

I found the part in the other thread talking about Mirage grandmasters (also check previous posts for the context). I couldn't find a Mirage balance suggestion thread in Mesmer subforum, i just link it here for now: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1112160#Comment_1112160

[Abyssisis.3971]

When people complain about rangers, I seriously wonder if they are actually playing gw2. Having rangers on the opposing team means having to deal with fewer of the more troublesome meta classes that outperforms ranger in every way that matters in pvp.

 

[Burnfall.9573]

Ranger Profession is not the problem-they were not Toxic in Origin Guild Wars

 

-guild wars 2 introduces Toxicity- The Death of Profession Roles/Diversity/Identity

 

At this moment, pointing fingers at Ranger Profession will not resolve anything without Anet completely returning Ranger Profession to its original origin with its respected role

 

side note-

runes and sigils never existed in Origin Guild Wars- Ranger Profession does not need them to define their role....Please! remove them

[MrFrusciante.2438]

yea but what happens when you fight Axe/Axe, GS SB?

 

wait, nvm. I'm the only one....

[MrFrusciante.2438]

> @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741"

>

> Hammer core guard can essentially 1 shot a dps ranger. And as long as dolyak stance isn't available, hammer ring trashes rangers.

>

> 100% hammer guard is better vs ranger than the meta core guard.

>

> Do people play hammer core guard? Nope.

>

> Is that the Ranger's problem? Nope.

 

I just laughed too hard reading this....

 

bring back hammer guard

[Zephoid.4263]

> @"BadMed.3846" said:

> > @"Zephoid.4263" said:

>

> `Most of the time you are in a 2v2, or 3v2 and a ranger comes along and 12k+ccs you from 1200 range, most likely downing you instantly. Much like DE from years ago, you have to keep an eye out and a dodge ready for them at all times. `

> Just like we keep our nose out to sniff the mass invis Mesmer who's ready to unleash their full burst in the middle of a fight? What's wrong with ranger ding so with plenty of time for a player to realise and react?

>

 

Normally the reasoning is that 1500 range means you are a lot safer from most enemy retaliations, but mesmer's ease of obtaining evade and distort kind of invalidates that point. However the problem with mesmer is for another day. For ranger, PBS->rapid fire full chain is ~1.5s. Since most forms of evasion don't work when CC'd, its essentially stun break or die coming from long range. People complain about stab uptime, but this kind of thing is the reason its necessary. If people want boon uptime to come down, CC into killed before standing up is the poster child of what has to go. I don't think mesmers should be getting the pass either, but Anet found mesmer burst near sacrosanct.

 

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> @"Zephoid.4263"

>

 

> * Mesmer/Mirage = Massive stealth access, Massive mobility, Maximum slipperiness. Condi Mirage in every way counters all Ranger builds. Not only is a Condi Mirage hard to hit in general, but condis are every Ranger's weakness in the long run. The thing is, Condi Mirage can quite seriously kite behind LOS nearly 100% of the time vs. a Ranger, and still beat it by spaming clones/illusions/phantasm from behind LOS. So this class can not only chase and get into range with the Ranger easily without being hit, but it can also guarantee almost a 100% win rate during kite fights vs. a Ranger.

 

 

I dont know about this. Ive been on both sides of this spectrum. As a Druid and Soulbeast, I can cleanse the condis fairly well. When I play condi mirage *gags* Soulbeasts can eat them and cleanse them as well. Granted its been a while since I mained condi mirage (I swap between condi and dps mirage, even in WvW) I can load them up fairly quickly and consistently.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"Zephoid.4263"

> >

>

> > * Mesmer/Mirage = Massive stealth access, Massive mobility, Maximum slipperiness. Condi Mirage in every way counters all Ranger builds. Not only is a Condi Mirage hard to hit in general, but condis are every Ranger's weakness in the long run. The thing is, Condi Mirage can quite seriously kite behind LOS nearly 100% of the time vs. a Ranger, and still beat it by spaming clones/illusions/phantasm from behind LOS. So this class can not only chase and get into range with the Ranger easily without being hit, but it can also guarantee almost a 100% win rate during kite fights vs. a Ranger.

>

>

> I dont know about this. Ive been on both sides of this spectrum. As a Druid and Soulbeast, I can cleanse the condis fairly well. When I play condi mirage *gags* Soulbeasts can eat them and cleanse them as well. Granted its been a while since I mained condi mirage (I swap between condi and dps mirage, even in WvW) I can load them up fairly quickly and consistently.

 

From what I can tell its about evenish, It really depends on specific build choices.

complaining that mesmer can "kite around LoS while clones deal dmg" as ranger out of all classes should be bannable TBH.

There is big number of fuck 'y interactions that screw mesmer, if those didnt exist then cmes would just obliterate ranger.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Zephoid.4263" said:

> > @"BadMed.3846" said:

> > > @"Zephoid.4263" said:

> >

> > `Most of the time you are in a 2v2, or 3v2 and a ranger comes along and 12k+ccs you from 1200 range, most likely downing you instantly. Much like DE from years ago, you have to keep an eye out and a dodge ready for them at all times. `

> > Just like we keep our nose out to sniff the mass invis Mesmer who's ready to unleash their full burst in the middle of a fight? What's wrong with ranger ding so with plenty of time for a player to realise and react?

> >

>

> Normally the reasoning is that 1500 range means you are a lot safer from most enemy retaliations, but mesmer's ease of obtaining evade and distort kind of invalidates that point. However the problem with mesmer is for another day. For ranger, PBS->rapid fire full chain is ~1.5s. Since most forms of evasion don't work when CC'd, its essentially stun break or die coming from long range. People complain about stab uptime, but this kind of thing is the reason its necessary. If people want boon uptime to come down, CC into killed before standing up is the poster child of what has to go. I don't think mesmers should be getting the pass either, but Anet found mesmer burst near sacrosanct.

>

 

The difference is for mesmer to do that kind of damage they need to be in melee range and mirror blade bounces at random so you may only get 1 mirror blade hit, 2 mind wrack hits (assuming clone isn't instakilled in the AoE of a 2/3v2) mantra of pain x2 and mind stab. What defences did they use for this? If they blinked in they have 1 stunbreak and it's not blink so cleave, distortion at 0 clones is 1s and stealth away, still susceptible to cleave after 1s, blurred frenzy and prestige, they're pretty useless and low on defences after that for 10s, assuming we're talking about PU core mes that is.

 

What's the ranger got? 3-4k auto attacks, pet damage (have to watch out for death in cleave) all of it's defences, depending on if you choose soulbeast or core ranger plenty of tools for evading further damage and escape as well as more in fight capabilities.

 

In this 2/3v2 situation whether it's a mesmer or a thief they're looking to add in, get a kill, then either get another quick kill if the opportunity is there or go somewhere else to get a kill. If they failed the team should also be evaluating the fight and potentially withdrawing from it as they're now 4v5 across the map (if no +1 on enemy team like mes/thief) so they need to buy time for the +1 class to rebalance the game.

 

Yes I know thief/mes isn't -1 player but they are during their down time of damage, one of the most annoying things for these 2 classes is to fight 5 sustains who sit on their 2 nodes while the thief/mesmer's team already have the other node. They then get sucked into a teamfight where they're worse than other options.

[CroTiger.7819]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

I made discussion on ranger proffesion forum about interupt playstyle if u want to join but anyway im still newbie for forum so if u want we can talk ingame i added u already but seems like its your second acc which is mostly inactive ingame

[Avatar.3568]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> This game is just too spam for rupts to work. Game needed a huge rework for it to be good.

> It also needs to be more punishing, with thr resource the problem is solved.

> Cutting just stab won't do anything.

>

 

The game right now is extremely punishing, if you do a mistake you can get easily killed

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"Avatar.3568" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > This game is just too spam for rupts to work. Game needed a huge rework for it to be good.

> > It also needs to be more punishing, with thr resource the problem is solved.

> > Cutting just stab won't do anything.

> >

>

> The game right now is extremely punishing, if you do a mistake you can get easily killed

 

Game is far from punishing and has always been.

Tons of passives, easy access to blocks, evades, invul, heal burst, safety nets imbued into weapon skills and so on.

 

 

[viquing.8254]

I'm fine about ranger and ofc it's possible to beat them but when yesterday I saw : https://imgur.com/a/85SnR6l ,

I'm thinking they mixted a defensive skill in a 3 on 1 fashion.

Mean we are back in time when SB full counter do the coffee.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> I'm fine about ranger and ofc it's possible to beat them but when yesterday I saw : https://imgur.com/a/85SnR6l ,

> I'm thinking they mixted a defensive skill in a 3 on 1 fashion.

> Mean we are back in time when SB full counter do the coffee.

 

Enough of the stars aligning stuff already.

 

All the ranger mains in here have agreed that marks mods can make literally any attack off the ranger hit too hard. But let's not pretend like these skills are always standardly hitting hard like that, because they aren't. Honestly, even while running a full glass cannon build, you're lucky to land half of that damage with a good & well placed counter attack. So if you missed the point here, it's that marksmanship mods are what is creating those rare out of left field random high damage attacks from rangers. It isn't sic em anymore, and it isn't general ranger damage. It's those marks mods.

 

Lately actually, while running my full berserker glass cannon soulbeast, I've been hitting lower damage than ever before. Mauls are starting to turn from 10ks down to more like 6ks-8ks, and WIs that should be winding up for a 12k+ strike are hitting more for like 9k-10k. Keep in mind this is with a DPS Soulbeast running Berserker gear with Skrim/Beastmaster/Soulbeast. It has quite seriously no defensive utilities at all, and is completely dedicate to damage output.

 

So enough already of this "stars aligning" stuff, and posting that 1/50 match you get where a Ranger somehow lands abnormal damage with an attack, ONCE in the course of a 15 minute match. We know, we get it. We've been all through this already. All of the Ranger mains have already suggested marks mods being turned down.