Anput.4620 Posted February 20, 2020 Author Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > @"Anput.4620" said: > > So given equal skill you say that the larger group can't capitalise on it more? > > Precisely because, the more targets that stack for a Rez, the more targets become susceptible to cleave damage because they have to bunch together. Like I said earlier, this is what makes 1v8’s on reaper possible, which I have repeatedly been successful at accomplishing. > > The same applies in the opposing direction. The more players I have that can cleave enemy downstates the more advantageous it is for my numbers to dominate theirs...especially when they ball up for a resurrection. This assumes that everyone is just going to stand there to eat your AoE so the "given equal skill" part doesn't apply here, even having a down that doesn't get rezzed but keeps attacking you is an advantage in pure damage. You tell me that "the more cleave i have the better i can deal with it", but downstate not being there at all would mean those players would just *die*. If they are as smart as you are, it benefits them more, why do poeple think outskilling it even though it is unfair means it is balanced? Lets say you have 2 GvG guilds, 1 has 6 poeple and the other 10, they are of equal skill, whom is benefited by downstate more? > @"Aspen Tie.5084" said: > > > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > > > @"Aspen Tie.5084" said: > > > > To the OP, > > > > > > > > Downstate is a mechanic that enhances and encourages party play. In fact, it really has zero benefits for a solo roamer except for the occasional rally when an NPC or enemy player is finished. It's main purpose is to allow a **teammate **to rally you back into combat. How it works is no mystery: more allies = more people to 'f' on downstate. So inherently, the group with larger numbers benefits more. It adds further depth into the combat system and if you can't look back or think of any instances where downstate made for a more interesting and exciting skirmish than I don't know what to tell you - your missing out. > > > > > > Benefit is a strong word. More players to Rez also means more potential targets that can receive cleaving damage that result in more deaths. > > > > > > The argument that it benefits the side with more people is subjective and superficial at best. > > > > So given equal skill you say that the larger group can't capitalise on it more? > > I agree with Justice, the 'benefit' seems mostly superficial in terms of numbers. > > Downstate is a double edged sword; depending on the situation it can have just as many 'drawbacks' as it does 'benifits'. Like I said, it's an element that adds depth to the combat system and opens the door for some exciting fights. > > That depends on playerskill, not the mechanic itself or balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 Let's summarize the encounter then: 1.) you engaged a weaker Revenant player who, if he had been competent, would have destroyed you on your necro build - **you got lucky** 2.) a second player added in turning this into a 1v2 against you, yet you still survive (funny since ranger has some sick burst especially if he can free cast, guess just this one didn't) - **you got even more lucky** 3.) both opposing players were power builds, which your build is not designed against or at least not fully - **you got lucky they did not take advantage of this** 4.) the revenant disengages which gives you the opportunity to either switch targets, disengage an outnumbered fight which by now you should have seen your build is not designed against, yet you keep engaging - **you got greedy** 5.) you down the revenant thanks to simple out-sustain of core necro and by spamming skills as a result of how your build is designed and since the opponents can't take advantage of your builds weaknesses due to lack of skill, you go unpunished - **once again lucky** 6.) your build lacks absolutely any type of down pressure or cleave and you can't capitalize on the downstate - **your luck ran out** 7.) rinse and repeat until eventually your sustain build runs out of sustain and you go down - **the result of all of the above** At no point was the downstate mechanic a major deciding factor here. The most deciding factors were: - player skill of all involved (both yours and your opponents), - a proper build with proper tools for roaming, - luck of the draw to not get countered by a different build. Had there been no downstate, both of those players could have run other builds, other setups, even you might have run a different build. Certainly no downstate cleave would have been needed, which suits you perfectly well since your build is lacking any. So in essence, this thread is simply about someone who wants a game mechanic changed because his build does not provide it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspen Tie.5084 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"Anput.4620" said: > > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > > @"Anput.4620" said: > > > So given equal skill you say that the larger group can't capitalise on it more? > > > > Precisely because, the more targets that stack for a Rez, the more targets become susceptible to cleave damage because they have to bunch together. Like I said earlier, this is what makes 1v8’s on reaper possible, which I have repeatedly been successful at accomplishing. > > > > The same applies in the opposing direction. The more players I have that can cleave enemy downstates the more advantageous it is for my numbers to dominate theirs...especially when they ball up for a resurrection. > > This assumes that everyone is just going to stand there to eat your AoE so the "given equal skill" part doesn't apply here, even having a down that doesn't get rezzed but keeps attacking you is an advantage in pure damage. > > You tell me that "the more cleave i have the better i can deal with it", but downstate not being there at all would mean those players would just *die*. If they are as smart as you are, it benefits them more, why do poeple think outskilling it even though it is unfair means it is balanced? Lets say you have 2 GvG guilds, 1 has 6 poeple and the other 10, they are of equal skill, whom is benefited by downstate more? > > > @"Aspen Tie.5084" said: > > > > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > > > > @"Aspen Tie.5084" said: > > > > > To the OP, > > > > > > > > > > Downstate is a mechanic that enhances and encourages party play. In fact, it really has zero benefits for a solo roamer except for the occasional rally when an NPC or enemy player is finished. It's main purpose is to allow a **teammate **to rally you back into combat. How it works is no mystery: more allies = more people to 'f' on downstate. So inherently, the group with larger numbers benefits more. It adds further depth into the combat system and if you can't look back or think of any instances where downstate made for a more interesting and exciting skirmish than I don't know what to tell you - your missing out. > > > > > > > > Benefit is a strong word. More players to Rez also means more potential targets that can receive cleaving damage that result in more deaths. > > > > > > > > The argument that it benefits the side with more people is subjective and superficial at best. > > > > > > So given equal skill you say that the larger group can't capitalise on it more? > > > > I agree with Justice, the 'benefit' seems mostly superficial in terms of numbers. > > > > Downstate is a double edged sword; depending on the situation it can have just as many 'drawbacks' as it does 'benifits'. Like I said, it's an element that adds depth to the combat system and opens the door for some exciting fights. > > > > > > That depends on playerskill, not the mechanic itself or balance. Exaclty. Downstate is the common denominator - it's universal to every player. It's not a matter of being unbalanced because, everyone has it. The mechanic is not unfair - the situation you were in was (1V2) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anput.4620 Posted February 20, 2020 Author Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > Let's summarize the encounter then: > > 1.) you engaged a weaker Revenant player who, if he had been competent, would have destroyed you on your necro build - **you got lucky** > 2.) a second player added in turning this into a 1v2 against you, yet you still survive (funny since ranger has some sick burst especially if he can free cast, guess just this one didn't) - **you got even more lucky** > 3.) both opposing players were power builds, which your build is not designed against or at least not fully - **you got lucky they did not take advantage of this** > 4.) the revenant disengages which gives you the opportunity to either switch targets, disengage an outnumbered fight which by now you should have seen your build is not designed against, yet you keep engaging - **you got greedy** > 5.) you down the revenant thanks to simple out-sustain of core necro and by spamming skills as a result of how your build is designed and since the opponents can't take advantage of your builds weaknesses due to lack of skill, you go unpunished - **once again lucky** > 6.) your build lacks absolutely any type of down pressure or cleave and you can't capitalize on the downstate - **your luck ran out** > 7.) rinse and repeat until eventually your sustain build runs out of sustain and you go down - **the result of all of the above** > > At no point was the downstate mechanic a major deciding factor here. The most deciding factors were: > - player skill of all involved (both yours and your opponents), > - a proper build with proper tools for roaming, > - luck of the draw to not get countered by a different build. > > Had there been no downstate, both of those players could have run other builds, other setups, even you might have run a different build. Certainly no downstate cleave would have been needed, which suits you perfectly well since your build is lacking any. > > So in essence, this thread is simply about someone who wants a game mechanic changed because his build does not provide it. My builds main damaging skill literally pierces so i do have cleave, as you saw when i tried to cleave them down but F was faster, and you are saying that downstate wasn't a big factor? So if downstate didn't exist here you say the outcome would still be the same even though i downed the rev 3 times? How is necro supposed to disengage lol. How is it lucky that they have less skill? If you have way less skill you should lose right? What did downstate for me here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anput.4620 Posted February 20, 2020 Author Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"Aspen Tie.5084" said: > > @"Anput.4620" said: > > > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > > > @"Anput.4620" said: > > > > So given equal skill you say that the larger group can't capitalise on it more? > > > > > > Precisely because, the more targets that stack for a Rez, the more targets become susceptible to cleave damage because they have to bunch together. Like I said earlier, this is what makes 1v8’s on reaper possible, which I have repeatedly been successful at accomplishing. > > > > > > The same applies in the opposing direction. The more players I have that can cleave enemy downstates the more advantageous it is for my numbers to dominate theirs...especially when they ball up for a resurrection. > > > > This assumes that everyone is just going to stand there to eat your AoE so the "given equal skill" part doesn't apply here, even having a down that doesn't get rezzed but keeps attacking you is an advantage in pure damage. > > > > You tell me that "the more cleave i have the better i can deal with it", but downstate not being there at all would mean those players would just *die*. If they are as smart as you are, it benefits them more, why do poeple think outskilling it even though it is unfair means it is balanced? Lets say you have 2 GvG guilds, 1 has 6 poeple and the other 10, they are of equal skill, whom is benefited by downstate more? > > > > > @"Aspen Tie.5084" said: > > > > > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > > > > > @"Aspen Tie.5084" said: > > > > > > To the OP, > > > > > > > > > > > > Downstate is a mechanic that enhances and encourages party play. In fact, it really has zero benefits for a solo roamer except for the occasional rally when an NPC or enemy player is finished. It's main purpose is to allow a **teammate **to rally you back into combat. How it works is no mystery: more allies = more people to 'f' on downstate. So inherently, the group with larger numbers benefits more. It adds further depth into the combat system and if you can't look back or think of any instances where downstate made for a more interesting and exciting skirmish than I don't know what to tell you - your missing out. > > > > > > > > > > Benefit is a strong word. More players to Rez also means more potential targets that can receive cleaving damage that result in more deaths. > > > > > > > > > > The argument that it benefits the side with more people is subjective and superficial at best. > > > > > > > > So given equal skill you say that the larger group can't capitalise on it more? > > > > > > I agree with Justice, the 'benefit' seems mostly superficial in terms of numbers. > > > > > > Downstate is a double edged sword; depending on the situation it can have just as many 'drawbacks' as it does 'benifits'. Like I said, it's an element that adds depth to the combat system and opens the door for some exciting fights. > > > > > > > > > > That depends on playerskill, not the mechanic itself or balance. > > Exaclty. Downstate is the common denominator - it's universal to every player. It's not a matter of being unbalanced because, everyone has it. The mechanic is not unfair - the situation you were in was (1V2) Downstate makes outnumbered situations extra unfair because they can utilise it better, if not for downstate i would have won, same if this happens in a 2v4, or a 3v5. Everyone has it isn't an argument when larger groups have more of it and more rezzes for it, it scales by numbers so why do we need to have such a mechanic that scales by numbers given equal skill? If you can't F while in combat for example then it would be no problem, but the way downstate is atm with rezzing in combat and rally means it will always benefit numbers given equal skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspen Tie.5084 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 Being outnumbered in and of itself is unfair. You are implying that an outnumbered situation is fair and that downsate is somehow why it is becomes unfair. As mentioned before, the 'benefit' is seemingly only superficial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anput.4620 Posted February 20, 2020 Author Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"Jayden Reese.9542" said: > Listen if they remove downstate and changed nothing he's right. That's all he wants. > Now they can't do that and not change other things or WvW/PVP would be terrible but he refuses to account for that. > Numbers favors numbers in every scenario unless bypassed by skill/organization or surprise like portal bomb mass stealth type of the lesser force > The guy who says he 1v8 like no, no you don't. Now I as reaper have shown up to a 6v10 and 2 of the 10 are downed next to each other with a few going to rez and yes I have reaper shroud 2 to close/do dmg and spun to win killed the 2 downed and downed the 3 rezzers. I have also spectral grasped 2-4 and chilled 2 the bone 2 wells shroud spin to win those fights occasionally but those a bad players or were not paying attention gathering node type stuff. Never would 8 dudes and only me happen. Now maybe and I never would he rolls up on vet creature day with a bunch pvers waiting hops up n down on his mount like hes no threat then surprise he kills 8 dudes who won't fight back but go away with that please. Heck, if they just remove rally and rezzing while in combat, thats probably enough. That would make downstate just some extra damage while you bleed out while your ally can get you up if the fight ends before you bleed out, this is how downstate literally works in almost every good/popular PvP game that has it, except in most you can't even do damage either. I don't get why this game has nonsensical carebear mechanics that other games don't have, another open world PvP sieging MMO i play has no downstate, if someone reses you they get interrupted by damage and has no BS mounts, a good player can beat multiple, has a long casting time for waypointing so you can't just TP away randomly and everything feels meaningful, unlike this WvW playground. Why are other games like that but this game is like this with constant carebearing with its players supporting it? Any PvP community would see ktraining as a joke in any game, poeple don't go and play these kinds of modes to do PvE, except in Gw2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"Anput.4620" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > Let's summarize the encounter then: > > > > 1.) you engaged a weaker Revenant player who, if he had been competent, would have destroyed you on your necro build - **you got lucky** > > 2.) a second player added in turning this into a 1v2 against you, yet you still survive (funny since ranger has some sick burst especially if he can free cast, guess just this one didn't) - **you got even more lucky** > > 3.) both opposing players were power builds, which your build is not designed against or at least not fully - **you got lucky they did not take advantage of this** > > 4.) the revenant disengages which gives you the opportunity to either switch targets, disengage an outnumbered fight which by now you should have seen your build is not designed against, yet you keep engaging - **you got greedy** > > 5.) you down the revenant thanks to simple out-sustain of core necro and by spamming skills as a result of how your build is designed and since the opponents can't take advantage of your builds weaknesses due to lack of skill, you go unpunished - **once again lucky** > > 6.) your build lacks absolutely any type of down pressure or cleave and you can't capitalize on the downstate - **your luck ran out** > > 7.) rinse and repeat until eventually your sustain build runs out of sustain and you go down - **the result of all of the above** > > > > At no point was the downstate mechanic a major deciding factor here. The most deciding factors were: > > - player skill of all involved (both yours and your opponents), > > - a proper build with proper tools for roaming, > > - luck of the draw to not get countered by a different build. > > > > Had there been no downstate, both of those players could have run other builds, other setups, even you might have run a different build. Certainly no downstate cleave would have been needed, which suits you perfectly well since your build is lacking any. > > > > So in essence, this thread is simply about someone who wants a game mechanic changed because his build does not provide it. > > My builds main damaging skill literally pierces so i do have cleave, as you saw when i tried to cleave them down but F was faster, and you are saying that downstate wasn't a big factor? So if downstate didn't exist here you say the outcome would still be the same even though i downed the rev 3 times? How is necro supposed to disengage lol. How is it lucky that they have less skill? If you have way less skill you should lose right? > No, what I'm saying is they were NOT unskilled enough for you to win or you were not skilled enough to win. Chose which ever you want. > @"Anput.4620" said: > What did downstate for me here? It literally gave you options during the fight. That is without getting into the fact that your opponents builds were potentially designed in a way that downstate was a factor for them. For example, an opponent you meet might have more downstate cleave/pressure in his build, which gives him a disadvantage against your build UNTIL you go down. You are harping on and on about what did downstate do for you: what did you do to accommodate downstate in your build? You were well aware it is in the game. You were either counting on 1v1 fights, or not caring. Your literal go to is: I want this gone cause my build can't deal with this. EDIT: and just to be clear. Had that fight gone any other way, say the ranger had run the moment the rev went down, or hadn't resurrected, etc. You'd not be here complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blockhead Magee.3092 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > What did you do to accommodate downstate in your build? You were well aware it is in the game. You were either counting on 1v1 fights, or not caring. Your literal go to is: I want this gone cause my build can't deal with this. This is the part of the fight people don't want to account for. The vast majority of time, I'm roaming alone. Downstate is generally a death sentence if it happens to me, but I still don't want it removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anput.4620 Posted February 20, 2020 Author Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Anput.4620" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > Let's summarize the encounter then: > > > > > > 1.) you engaged a weaker Revenant player who, if he had been competent, would have destroyed you on your necro build - **you got lucky** > > > 2.) a second player added in turning this into a 1v2 against you, yet you still survive (funny since ranger has some sick burst especially if he can free cast, guess just this one didn't) - **you got even more lucky** > > > 3.) both opposing players were power builds, which your build is not designed against or at least not fully - **you got lucky they did not take advantage of this** > > > 4.) the revenant disengages which gives you the opportunity to either switch targets, disengage an outnumbered fight which by now you should have seen your build is not designed against, yet you keep engaging - **you got greedy** > > > 5.) you down the revenant thanks to simple out-sustain of core necro and by spamming skills as a result of how your build is designed and since the opponents can't take advantage of your builds weaknesses due to lack of skill, you go unpunished - **once again lucky** > > > 6.) your build lacks absolutely any type of down pressure or cleave and you can't capitalize on the downstate - **your luck ran out** > > > 7.) rinse and repeat until eventually your sustain build runs out of sustain and you go down - **the result of all of the above** > > > > > > At no point was the downstate mechanic a major deciding factor here. The most deciding factors were: > > > - player skill of all involved (both yours and your opponents), > > > - a proper build with proper tools for roaming, > > > - luck of the draw to not get countered by a different build. > > > > > > Had there been no downstate, both of those players could have run other builds, other setups, even you might have run a different build. Certainly no downstate cleave would have been needed, which suits you perfectly well since your build is lacking any. > > > > > > So in essence, this thread is simply about someone who wants a game mechanic changed because his build does not provide it. > > > > My builds main damaging skill literally pierces so i do have cleave, as you saw when i tried to cleave them down but F was faster, and you are saying that downstate wasn't a big factor? So if downstate didn't exist here you say the outcome would still be the same even though i downed the rev 3 times? How is necro supposed to disengage lol. How is it lucky that they have less skill? If you have way less skill you should lose right? > > > > No, what I'm saying is they were NOT unskilled enough for you to win or you were not skilled enough to win. Chose which ever you want. > > > @"Anput.4620" said: > > What did downstate for me here? > > It literally gave you options during the fight. That is without getting into the fact that your opponents builds were potentially designed in a way that downstate was a factor for them. For example, an opponent you meet might have more downstate cleave/pressure in his build, which gives him a disadvantage against your build UNTIL you go down. > > You are harping on and on about what did downstate do for you: what did you do to accommodate downstate in your build? You were well aware it is in the game. You were either counting on 1v1 fights, or not caring. My life blast pierces which is AoE pressure, yet it wasn't enough even with ferocity on every piece of gear i have. What did you mean give me options? So you are saying that these "options" are better than if poeple just died when they are killed? With downstate the bigger numbers have the advantage because they can utilise it better, no downstate i would have killed them, *but they would still have the advantage by having 2 poeple vs 1 because of numbers*, whats so hard to understand there? I am asking why you need to be MASSIVELY more skilled, why do we have these mechanics that scale with the side that already has an inherent advantage? I am not asking you how to deal with it, im asking you what balancing decission/logic justifies someone having to deal with it in the first place when they are the smaller group already? Why does the smaller party need to have an even more uphill battle than bigger numbers already provide? Also, what build purposefully includes downstate cleave lol, most builds already either have it in their weapons, ive never seen any good roaming build even talk about it, because you just pick the weapons that are good, for ranger thats LB, GS, axes, sword and warhorn depending on the build for example. Once again, my build did have "cleave" and had ferocity on every piece, extra ferocity and crit chance in shroud too. No downstate doesn't favour anyone on a balancing scale, downstate favours the bigger number. But yes, can you explain to me how LB soulbeast and rev are less meta than core necro? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"Anput.4620" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Anput.4620" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > Let's summarize the encounter then: > > > > > > > > 1.) you engaged a weaker Revenant player who, if he had been competent, would have destroyed you on your necro build - **you got lucky** > > > > 2.) a second player added in turning this into a 1v2 against you, yet you still survive (funny since ranger has some sick burst especially if he can free cast, guess just this one didn't) - **you got even more lucky** > > > > 3.) both opposing players were power builds, which your build is not designed against or at least not fully - **you got lucky they did not take advantage of this** > > > > 4.) the revenant disengages which gives you the opportunity to either switch targets, disengage an outnumbered fight which by now you should have seen your build is not designed against, yet you keep engaging - **you got greedy** > > > > 5.) you down the revenant thanks to simple out-sustain of core necro and by spamming skills as a result of how your build is designed and since the opponents can't take advantage of your builds weaknesses due to lack of skill, you go unpunished - **once again lucky** > > > > 6.) your build lacks absolutely any type of down pressure or cleave and you can't capitalize on the downstate - **your luck ran out** > > > > 7.) rinse and repeat until eventually your sustain build runs out of sustain and you go down - **the result of all of the above** > > > > > > > > At no point was the downstate mechanic a major deciding factor here. The most deciding factors were: > > > > - player skill of all involved (both yours and your opponents), > > > > - a proper build with proper tools for roaming, > > > > - luck of the draw to not get countered by a different build. > > > > > > > > Had there been no downstate, both of those players could have run other builds, other setups, even you might have run a different build. Certainly no downstate cleave would have been needed, which suits you perfectly well since your build is lacking any. > > > > > > > > So in essence, this thread is simply about someone who wants a game mechanic changed because his build does not provide it. > > > > > > My builds main damaging skill literally pierces so i do have cleave, as you saw when i tried to cleave them down but F was faster, and you are saying that downstate wasn't a big factor? So if downstate didn't exist here you say the outcome would still be the same even though i downed the rev 3 times? How is necro supposed to disengage lol. How is it lucky that they have less skill? If you have way less skill you should lose right? > > > > > > > No, what I'm saying is they were NOT unskilled enough for you to win or you were not skilled enough to win. Chose which ever you want. > > > > > @"Anput.4620" said: > > > What did downstate for me here? > > > > It literally gave you options during the fight. That is without getting into the fact that your opponents builds were potentially designed in a way that downstate was a factor for them. For example, an opponent you meet might have more downstate cleave/pressure in his build, which gives him a disadvantage against your build UNTIL you go down. > > > > You are harping on and on about what did downstate do for you: what did you do to accommodate downstate in your build? You were well aware it is in the game. You were either counting on 1v1 fights, or not caring. > > My life blast pierces which is AoE pressure, yet it wasn't enough even with ferocity on every piece of gear i have. > > What did you mean give me options? So you are saying that these "options" are better than if poeple just died when they are killed? > > I am asking why you need to be MASSIVELY more skilled, why do we have these mechanics that scale with the side that already has an inherent advantage? I am not asking you how to deal with it, im asking you what balancing decission/logic justifies someone having to deal with it in the first place when they are the smaller group already? Why does the smaller party need to have an even more uphill battle than bigger numbers already provide? > You need only be skilled enough above your opponent as much as the difference in builds dictates. In wvw it's: - numbers - skill - builds In that order mostly. I summed up where you and your build fell short. > @"Anput.4620" said: > Also, what build purposefully includes downstate cleave lol, most builds already either have it in their weapons, ive never seen any good roaming build even talk about it, because you just pick the weapons that are good, for ranger thats LB, GS, axes, sword and warhorn depending on the build for example. Once again, my build did have "cleave" and had ferocity on every piece, extra ferocity and crit chance in shroud too. Yes, I wonder what those 3 signets on your utility bar could have had on them INSTEAD of those signets. Your gear had pathetic cleave/burst, as evident by the fact that you were neither safe in stomping, nor able to down a player who does nothing but press F on a spot. > @"Anput.4620" said: > But yes, can you explain to me how LB soulbeast and rev are less meta than core necro? You do realize different builds are meta, yet they vary in how strong they are against each other? Unless of course your approach to this situation is: uh, meta, this build must be good against everything equally.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetoII.3782 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > @"Anput.4620" said: > > So given equal skill you say that the larger group can't capitalise on it more? > > Precisely because, the more targets that stack for a Rez, the more targets become susceptible to cleave damage because they have to bunch together. Like I said earlier, this is what makes 1v8’s on reaper possible, which I have repeatedly been successful at accomplishing. > > The same applies in the opposing direction. The more players I have that can cleave enemy downstates the more advantageous it is for my numbers to dominate theirs...especially when they ball up for a resurrection. Not sure how you circumvent the 5 person AoE cap, but k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anput.4620 Posted February 20, 2020 Author Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Anput.4620" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Anput.4620" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > Let's summarize the encounter then: > > > > > > > > > > 1.) you engaged a weaker Revenant player who, if he had been competent, would have destroyed you on your necro build - **you got lucky** > > > > > 2.) a second player added in turning this into a 1v2 against you, yet you still survive (funny since ranger has some sick burst especially if he can free cast, guess just this one didn't) - **you got even more lucky** > > > > > 3.) both opposing players were power builds, which your build is not designed against or at least not fully - **you got lucky they did not take advantage of this** > > > > > 4.) the revenant disengages which gives you the opportunity to either switch targets, disengage an outnumbered fight which by now you should have seen your build is not designed against, yet you keep engaging - **you got greedy** > > > > > 5.) you down the revenant thanks to simple out-sustain of core necro and by spamming skills as a result of how your build is designed and since the opponents can't take advantage of your builds weaknesses due to lack of skill, you go unpunished - **once again lucky** > > > > > 6.) your build lacks absolutely any type of down pressure or cleave and you can't capitalize on the downstate - **your luck ran out** > > > > > 7.) rinse and repeat until eventually your sustain build runs out of sustain and you go down - **the result of all of the above** > > > > > > > > > > At no point was the downstate mechanic a major deciding factor here. The most deciding factors were: > > > > > - player skill of all involved (both yours and your opponents), > > > > > - a proper build with proper tools for roaming, > > > > > - luck of the draw to not get countered by a different build. > > > > > > > > > > Had there been no downstate, both of those players could have run other builds, other setups, even you might have run a different build. Certainly no downstate cleave would have been needed, which suits you perfectly well since your build is lacking any. > > > > > > > > > > So in essence, this thread is simply about someone who wants a game mechanic changed because his build does not provide it. > > > > > > > > My builds main damaging skill literally pierces so i do have cleave, as you saw when i tried to cleave them down but F was faster, and you are saying that downstate wasn't a big factor? So if downstate didn't exist here you say the outcome would still be the same even though i downed the rev 3 times? How is necro supposed to disengage lol. How is it lucky that they have less skill? If you have way less skill you should lose right? > > > > > > > > > > No, what I'm saying is they were NOT unskilled enough for you to win or you were not skilled enough to win. Chose which ever you want. > > > > > > > @"Anput.4620" said: > > > > What did downstate for me here? > > > > > > It literally gave you options during the fight. That is without getting into the fact that your opponents builds were potentially designed in a way that downstate was a factor for them. For example, an opponent you meet might have more downstate cleave/pressure in his build, which gives him a disadvantage against your build UNTIL you go down. > > > > > > You are harping on and on about what did downstate do for you: what did you do to accommodate downstate in your build? You were well aware it is in the game. You were either counting on 1v1 fights, or not caring. > > > > My life blast pierces which is AoE pressure, yet it wasn't enough even with ferocity on every piece of gear i have. > > > > What did you mean give me options? So you are saying that these "options" are better than if poeple just died when they are killed? > > > > I am asking why you need to be MASSIVELY more skilled, why do we have these mechanics that scale with the side that already has an inherent advantage? I am not asking you how to deal with it, im asking you what balancing decission/logic justifies someone having to deal with it in the first place when they are the smaller group already? Why does the smaller party need to have an even more uphill battle than bigger numbers already provide? > > > > You need only be skilled enough above your opponent as much as the difference in builds dictates. In wvw it's: > - numbers > - skill > - builds > > In that order mostly. I summed up where you and your build fell short. > > > @"Anput.4620" said: > > Also, what build purposefully includes downstate cleave lol, most builds already either have it in their weapons, ive never seen any good roaming build even talk about it, because you just pick the weapons that are good, for ranger thats LB, GS, axes, sword and warhorn depending on the build for example. Once again, my build did have "cleave" and had ferocity on every piece, extra ferocity and crit chance in shroud too. > > Yes, I wonder what those 3 signets on your utility bar could have had on them INSTEAD of those signets. > > Your gear had pathetic cleave/burst, as evident by the fact that you were neither safe in stomping, nor able to down a player who does nothing but press F on a spot. > > > @"Anput.4620" said: > > But yes, can you explain to me how LB soulbeast and rev are less meta than core necro? > > You do realize different builds are meta, yet they vary in how strong they are against each other? > > Unless of course your approach to this situation is: uh, meta, this build must be good against everything equally.... First, plague signet is a cleanse and stunbreak and all my signets work in shroud, vampiric signet is also a heal skill, i was trying out locust which is another heal over spectral armor. Second, i have pathetic burst how? My burst comes from applying fear and nuking them with dread, all my items have ferocity and i have piercing damage which is cleave. I gain might when i use lifeblast and reach 25 pretty fast if i fear something and i have 221% ferocity too in shroud. Stomping-wise, please tell me the secret of necromancer stability. My point is, when is the last time you saw a core necro? An LB ranger shouldn't lose to a core necro lol, the rev also used hammer so had longrange nukes, both of their builds countered me, yet i downed the rev 3 times but they still deserve to win because the game pushes these carebear mechanics onto poeple? I don't see how the game isn't more balanced without either downstate or rally+combat rezz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anput.4620 Posted February 20, 2020 Author Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"Jayden Reese.9542" said: > Everyone just put You are right Anput and walk away. He's got multiple logical reply's he ignores. > Then go to Vayne's thread about strike missions and write You are right Vayne so these 2 threads die. > These 2 ignore everything except what they want to hear. I feel like you just like getting carried by numbers and your ally pressing F with stab after some thief/mesmer oneshot you lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 down state favors ppl that res. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anput.4620 Posted February 20, 2020 Author Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"Jayden Reese.9542" said: > > @"Anput.4620" said: > > > @"Jayden Reese.9542" said: > > > Everyone just put You are right Anput and walk away. He's got multiple logical reply's he ignores. > > > Then go to Vayne's thread about strike missions and write You are right Vayne so these 2 threads die. > > > These 2 ignore everything except what they want to hear. > > > > I feel like you just like getting carried by numbers and your ally pressing F with stab after some thief/mesmer oneshot you lol. > > Reaper. Never join a party. Never join the squad if I follow zerg always alone carrying myself And you say that in a 1v2 or 1v3 vs opponents of the same skill level of you downstate favours *you*? > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > down state favors ppl that res. Bigger groups have more poeple to res with and more poeple to spam 1 for damage if they get downed. I believe that poeple should die when they are killed and sent back to base no matter what, common PvP sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"Anput.4620" said: > Bigger groups have more poeple to res with and more poeple to spam 1 for damage if they get downed. the cap is 5. the res is really fast so 1 spam doesn't come into effect unless the ressing side is too slow. more coordinated bombs and better defensive strategy overshadows ressing completely. this is assuming under 30 maybe even 20 cuz 50s is lol. > I believe that poeple should die when they are killed and sent back to base no matter what, common PvP sense. abundantly clear. arguing with people here incessantly is going to get you nowhere tho. everyone knows your stance so how about we just call it a day. there are valid points on both sides, but anet isn't going to remove down state. on some level I think you know this, so you're arguing for the sake of arguing. have fun with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anput.4620 Posted February 20, 2020 Author Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > @"Anput.4620" said: > > Bigger groups have more poeple to res with and more poeple to spam 1 for damage if they get downed. > > the cap is 5. the res is really fast so 1 spam doesn't come into effect unless the ressing side is too slow. more coordinated bombs and better defensive strategy overshadows ressing completely. this is assuming under 30 maybe even 20 cuz 50s is lol. > > > I believe that poeple should die when they are killed and sent back to base no matter what, common PvP sense. > > abundantly clear. arguing with people here incessantly is going to get you nowhere tho. everyone knows your stance so how about we just call it a day. there are valid points on both sides, but anet isn't going to remove down state. on some level I think you know this, so you're arguing for the sake of arguing. have fun with that. Heck, even nerfs, not removal would be good, it needs nerfs anyways with the reduced damage or any smallscale outnumber will become impossible, i don't see how what i am saying doesn't make any sense. > @"Jayden Reese.9542" said: > > @"Anput.4620" said: > > > @"Jayden Reese.9542" said: > > > > @"Anput.4620" said: > > > > > @"Jayden Reese.9542" said: > > > > > Everyone just put You are right Anput and walk away. He's got multiple logical reply's he ignores. > > > > > Then go to Vayne's thread about strike missions and write You are right Vayne so these 2 threads die. > > > > > These 2 ignore everything except what they want to hear. > > > > > > > > I feel like you just like getting carried by numbers and your ally pressing F with stab after some thief/mesmer oneshot you lol. > > > > > > Reaper. Never join a party. Never join the squad if I follow zerg always alone carrying myself > > > > And you say that in a 1v2 or 1v3 vs opponents of the same skill level of you downstate favours *you*? > > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > > down state favors ppl that res. > > > > Bigger groups have more poeple to res with and more poeple to spam 1 for damage if they get downed. > > > > I believe that poeple should die when they are killed and sent back to base no matter what, common PvP sense. > > No I say in a 1v2 1v3 numbers favors everything. Only to be bypassed by skill luck or certain builds with stealth clones range or many good builds with lots evades invul blocks immunes plus can dish out damage. I do however don't have much problem if I down 1 of 3 and can secure that kill before I die Numbers does bypass everything, which is why i don't get why they get additional tools in this mechanic as is when they are already favoured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anput.4620 Posted February 20, 2020 Author Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"Jayden Reese.9542" said: > As much as you hate downstate I hate anyone that can bypass my good one. Stealth finish or the auto block label the dude mini engie finish like eff those dudes It's not just about hating, but about numbers and balance, and anything that benefits the larger group more is bad because that causes even more snowball. Most competitive games have systems in place to prevent this but this game seems to embrace it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"Anput.4620" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Anput.4620" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"Anput.4620" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > Let's summarize the encounter then: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1.) you engaged a weaker Revenant player who, if he had been competent, would have destroyed you on your necro build - **you got lucky** > > > > > > 2.) a second player added in turning this into a 1v2 against you, yet you still survive (funny since ranger has some sick burst especially if he can free cast, guess just this one didn't) - **you got even more lucky** > > > > > > 3.) both opposing players were power builds, which your build is not designed against or at least not fully - **you got lucky they did not take advantage of this** > > > > > > 4.) the revenant disengages which gives you the opportunity to either switch targets, disengage an outnumbered fight which by now you should have seen your build is not designed against, yet you keep engaging - **you got greedy** > > > > > > 5.) you down the revenant thanks to simple out-sustain of core necro and by spamming skills as a result of how your build is designed and since the opponents can't take advantage of your builds weaknesses due to lack of skill, you go unpunished - **once again lucky** > > > > > > 6.) your build lacks absolutely any type of down pressure or cleave and you can't capitalize on the downstate - **your luck ran out** > > > > > > 7.) rinse and repeat until eventually your sustain build runs out of sustain and you go down - **the result of all of the above** > > > > > > > > > > > > At no point was the downstate mechanic a major deciding factor here. The most deciding factors were: > > > > > > - player skill of all involved (both yours and your opponents), > > > > > > - a proper build with proper tools for roaming, > > > > > > - luck of the draw to not get countered by a different build. > > > > > > > > > > > > Had there been no downstate, both of those players could have run other builds, other setups, even you might have run a different build. Certainly no downstate cleave would have been needed, which suits you perfectly well since your build is lacking any. > > > > > > > > > > > > So in essence, this thread is simply about someone who wants a game mechanic changed because his build does not provide it. > > > > > > > > > > My builds main damaging skill literally pierces so i do have cleave, as you saw when i tried to cleave them down but F was faster, and you are saying that downstate wasn't a big factor? So if downstate didn't exist here you say the outcome would still be the same even though i downed the rev 3 times? How is necro supposed to disengage lol. How is it lucky that they have less skill? If you have way less skill you should lose right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, what I'm saying is they were NOT unskilled enough for you to win or you were not skilled enough to win. Chose which ever you want. > > > > > > > > > @"Anput.4620" said: > > > > > What did downstate for me here? > > > > > > > > It literally gave you options during the fight. That is without getting into the fact that your opponents builds were potentially designed in a way that downstate was a factor for them. For example, an opponent you meet might have more downstate cleave/pressure in his build, which gives him a disadvantage against your build UNTIL you go down. > > > > > > > > You are harping on and on about what did downstate do for you: what did you do to accommodate downstate in your build? You were well aware it is in the game. You were either counting on 1v1 fights, or not caring. > > > > > > My life blast pierces which is AoE pressure, yet it wasn't enough even with ferocity on every piece of gear i have. > > > > > > What did you mean give me options? So you are saying that these "options" are better than if poeple just died when they are killed? > > > > > > I am asking why you need to be MASSIVELY more skilled, why do we have these mechanics that scale with the side that already has an inherent advantage? I am not asking you how to deal with it, im asking you what balancing decission/logic justifies someone having to deal with it in the first place when they are the smaller group already? Why does the smaller party need to have an even more uphill battle than bigger numbers already provide? > > > > > > > You need only be skilled enough above your opponent as much as the difference in builds dictates. In wvw it's: > > - numbers > > - skill > > - builds > > > > In that order mostly. I summed up where you and your build fell short. > > > > > @"Anput.4620" said: > > > Also, what build purposefully includes downstate cleave lol, most builds already either have it in their weapons, ive never seen any good roaming build even talk about it, because you just pick the weapons that are good, for ranger thats LB, GS, axes, sword and warhorn depending on the build for example. Once again, my build did have "cleave" and had ferocity on every piece, extra ferocity and crit chance in shroud too. > > > > Yes, I wonder what those 3 signets on your utility bar could have had on them INSTEAD of those signets. > > > > Your gear had pathetic cleave/burst, as evident by the fact that you were neither safe in stomping, nor able to down a player who does nothing but press F on a spot. > > > > > @"Anput.4620" said: > > > But yes, can you explain to me how LB soulbeast and rev are less meta than core necro? > > > > You do realize different builds are meta, yet they vary in how strong they are against each other? > > > > Unless of course your approach to this situation is: uh, meta, this build must be good against everything equally.... > > First, plague signet is a cleanse and stunbreak and all my signets work in shroud, vampiric signet is also a heal skill, i was trying out locust which is another heal over spectral armor. I am well aware what those signets do. So back to the question: how are any of them providing ANYTHING in order to pressure downstates? We get it, your build is around survival, I've mentioned that how many times by now? > @"Anput.4620" said: > Second, i have pathetic burst how? My burst comes from applying fear and nuking them with dread, all my items have ferocity and i have piercing damage which is cleave. I gain might when i use lifeblast and reach 25 pretty fast if i fear something and i have 221% ferocity too in shroud. You obviously have never actually seen burst. Your build has none. > @"Anput.4620" said: > Stomping-wise, please tell me the secret of necromancer stability. Trick question, the obvious answer would be Well of Power, but that skill would not make sense on this build or would be to situational. > @"Anput.4620" said: > My point is, when is the last time you saw a core necro? An LB ranger shouldn't lose to a core necro lol, the rev also used hammer so had longrange nukes, both of their builds countered me, yet i downed the rev 3 times but they still deserve to win because the game pushes these carebear mechanics onto poeple? I don't see how the game isn't more balanced without either downstate or rally+combat rezz. The entire first around 30 games this pvp season, while I was playing one getting into gold 3 and p1. Hint: I had not 1 signet. Now yes, pvp and wvw are different beasts, but the times where one slapped on 4 signets and called it a build have been long gone. Listen, I tire of having to call out ever minute detail. I was even contemplating and going through the footage again and point out why you decided to stay in shroud over using your by now all off of cd weapon skills (that staff 4 would have been mighty useful right after you got stuned out of shroud 3), but then I figured: why bother? In your mind this entire situation is made up and you blame only the downstate mechanic. I'll sum up as follows: Downstate is a mechanic in this game and a LOT of balance is done around it. Removing it just like that will not work. Chances are nil that Arenanet will devote this amount of resources to removing such a mechanic, and it;s not even evident that a vast majority would support this change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clownmug.8357 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 Finishing downed opponents is a rule of the game. If you can't finish them it's like playing Uno and forgetting to shout "Uno!" on your last card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"Anput.4620" said: > Do you genuinly think WvW is a good competitive mode as is? What I think about downstate (or you or anyone else for that matter) has NOTHING to do with it's presence in the game or how much it impacts the competitiveness of the game mode. This game isn't about me or you or even some collection of people; downstate is there by Anet's definition of the game and you can't assume removing downstate makes WvW a good competitive mode because that's got massive bias and subjectivity attached to it. It's funny because if you really want to know what I think (and I already told you, so I don't know why you keep trying to ask me in different ways) ... is that you not being able to beat 2 people on your own is a really GOOD case for why downstate is IN game. I think the most telling thing is that this is yet another example of you not understanding the mode. The spirit of WvW is not about hanging around and picking fights to prove how awesome you are at PVP ... these things you constantly rally against because they ruin your fights are there because of the spirit of what WvW is ... and what it isn't. If anything, the presence of these things you don't like shouldn't be an indicator the game is wrong .. it should be an indicator you don't understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"LetoII.3782" said: > Not sure how you circumvent the 5 person AoE cap, but k > There’s also a resurrect cap too...not really sure how many players, but only so many players can actually contribute to a Rez. Perhaps someone could clarify how many, since I don’t actually know what the cap is. Regardless 1 player can cleave up to 5 targets, while only one person can resurrect one other person, so ya, if you have 5 people, you can cleave 25 people. If they have 5 people, they can only resurrect someone with 5 people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straegen.2938 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 There is a reason no downstate events in WvW are way more fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 > @"Straegen.2938" said: > There is a reason no downstate events in WvW are way more fun. Sure, for some people they are. That's not really relevant to the thread though. It's certainly not a reason to get rid of it. In fact, the no-downstate events offering some variety is a good reason to keep downstate for non-event play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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